Wizard dip for Eldritch Figher - is it an absolute no-brainer?

[Scirocco]

Wiz 1 gives you a spellbook, access to ritual spells, probably an extra 3 spells to your EK spells known each day that you can swap out, and a single level 1 slot recovered 1/day. To be fair, depending on when you take it you'll be delaying a feat/boost or extra attack, but considering how slow EK spell progression is those extra 1st level spells would be pretty valuable. It also frees up your spells known for additional higher level spells.

This works even better in a lower level campaign mode (Adventurers' League, for example) where you won't likely see those higher level spells.

[Yorrin]

This works even better in a lower level campaign mode (Adventurers' League, for example) where you won't likely see those higher level spells.

I'd posit that it ONLY works in a low level campaign- getting a fourth attack is a pretty good capstone for a Fighter, and you don't want to give that up for just a few extra low end spells.

[Rummy]

I'd posit that it ONLY works in a low level campaign- getting a fourth attack is a pretty good capstone for a Fighter, and you don't want to give that up for just a few extra low end spells.

Since most campaigns never see level 20, I'd say it works in almost every campaign.

[MaxWilson]

Wiz 1 gives you a spellbook, access to ritual spells, probably an extra 3 spells to your EK spells known each day that you can swap out, and a single level 1 slot recovered 1/day. To be fair, depending on when you take it you'll be delaying a feat/boost or extra attack, but considering how slow EK spell progression is those extra 1st level spells would be pretty valuable. It also frees up your spells known for additional higher level spells.

This works even better in a lower level campaign mode (Adventurers' League, for example) where you won't likely see those higher level spells.

If you're going to go Wizard 1 you might as well go Diviner 2 for Portent.

[edge2054]

If you're going to go Wizard 1 you might as well go Diviner 2 for Portent.

This is my whole issue with dipping (my personal issue I mean, not saying dipping is bad).

Once I've dipped two levels it's pretty easy to say, well may as well go level three for 2nd level spells, may as well go four for that feat, etc. etc.

But this thread has me thinking of a Wizard dip for an Arcane Trickster.

[Objulen]

Usually, if you're dipping, you're ending at 3. It's not bad for a Fighter, though, as mentioned, it will delay your 4th attack.

[Scirocco]

The 4th attack is effectively irrelevant for almost all games. Portent is very good but I feel that it's not worth further delaying EK progression early on.

I figure you go EK 4/Wiz 1/EK+ or EK 5/Wiz 1/EK+. Just depends on if you you're willing to settle only for Warcaster or want that extra attack sooner. If you've got an item like Staff of Defense taking Wiz at 4 could be ok too.

[odigity]

Usually, if you're dipping, you're ending at 3.

That feels like the most painful place to stop for me, because you just delayed an ABI/Feat by three levels. Permanently. Which means you're never getting your 5th one.

[Galen]

I actually ran a small calculation of how much you are losing by dipping three levels (and thus postponing pretty much all class features by same 3 levels)

Attacks per action:
If not dipping, your single-class Fighter will have 2.35 attacks per action on average (here and below, all numbers refer to average across 1-20 career)
If dipping 3 levels, your Fighter X/Wizard 3 will have 2.00 attacks per action.

Action Surge:
Single class Fighter: 1.1 Action Surges
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 0.8 Action Surges

Ability enhancements or feats:
Single class Fighter: 3.4
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 2.4

Indomitable uses:
Single class Fighter: 1.2
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 0.75

Hit points (assuming Con 14)
Single class Fighter: 79
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 71

Once again, those numbers represent not level 20, but the average across levels 1-20.

So, on average throughout your character's career, those 3 Wizard levels cost you 15% of your attacks, 27% of your Action Surges, 30% of your feats or ability increases, 37% of Indomitable uses, and 10% of your hit points. Is it worth it for a bunch of 1st and 2nd level spells? I don't know, you tell me.

[Rummy]

I actually ran a small calculation of how much you are losing by dipping three levels (and thus postponing pretty much all class features by same 3 levels)

Attacks per action:
If not dipping, your single-class Fighter will have 2.35 attacks per action on average (here and below, all numbers refer to average across 1-20 career)
If dipping 3 levels, your Fighter X/Wizard 3 will have 2.00 attacks per action.

Action Surge:
Single class Fighter: 1.1 Action Surges
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 0.8 Action Surges

Ability enhancements or feats:
Single class Fighter: 3.4
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 2.4

Indomitable uses:
Single class Fighter: 1.2
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 0.75

Hit points (assuming Con 14)
Single class Fighter: 79
Fighter X/Wizard 3: 71

Once again, those numbers represent not level 20, but the average across levels 1-20.

So, on average throughout your character's career, those 3 Wizard levels cost you 15% of your attacks, 27% of your Action Surges, 30% of your feats or ability increases, 37% of Indomitable uses, and 10% of your hit points. Is it worth it for a bunch of 1st and 2nd level spells? I don't know, you tell me.

Wow. Thanks so much for that analysis.

[jkat718]

I actually ran a small calculation of how much you are losing by dipping three levels (and thus postponing pretty much all class features by same 3 levels) *snip*

How does dipping only 2 levels alter this? Dipping 4 (and therefore gaining an ability increase/feat through Wizard)?

[Easy_Lee]

And here I thought warlock was the better dip for bonus action EBs and exotic pact weapons. It's MAD, but fighters have the stats for MAD, and only Cha and Str would need to be maxed.

[Galen]

How does dipping only 2 levels alter this? Dipping 4 (and therefore gaining an ability increase/feat through Wizard)?
Excel to the rescue!

Wizard 2/Fighter X:
- loses 11% of attacks
- loses 18% of Action Surge uses
- loses 25% of Indomitable uses
- loses 21% of ability increases or feats
- loses 8% of hit points

Wizard 4/Fighter X:
- loses 19% of attacks
- loses 36% of Action Surge uses
- loses 50% of Indomitable uses
- loses 13% of ability increases or feats
- loses 12% of hit points

(comparison vs. straight Fighter)

[Scirocco]

Could you post the math you're using? I'd like to run the same numbers assuming Wiz 1 to level 10/12 (what I figure is the upper limit of most League play)

[Galen]

Could you post the math you're using? I'd like to run the same numbers assuming Wiz 1 to level 10/12 (what I figure is the upper limit of most League play)

Open an Excel spreadsheet.

In column A, put the number of attack of a single-class fighter per level, until level 12 (1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3)
To represent a 2-level Wizard dip, column B is same as A, but shifted two rows down; cut off anything after level 12, and put 1's in the top 2 rows (1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2).

Average both columns. You have 1.83 in the single-classed fighter column, and 1.50 in the wizard 2/fighter X column (18% loss).

Repeat for Action Surge uses, Indomitable uses, and other class features.

[Easy_Lee]

Open an Excel spreadsheet.

In column A, put the number of attack of a single-class fighter per level, until level 12 (1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3)
To represent a 2-level Wizard dip, column B is same as A, but shifted two rows down; cut off anything after level 12, and put 1's in the top 2 rows (1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2).

Average both columns. You have 1.83 in the single-classed fighter column, and 1.50 in the wizard 2/fighter X column (18% loss).

Repeat for Action Surge uses, Indomitable uses, and other class features.

I see what you did there. You're calculating average loss across all levels, not eventual build.

[MaxWilson]

I see what you did there. You're calculating average loss across all levels, not eventual build.

Yes, that's why he said, "here and below, all numbers refer to average across 1-20 career" in his first post. It's an analysis of how much fun/how powerful a character is likely to be while in play.

If your DM has you generate characters who start off at level 10 or something that would alter the analysis. Also, some people (like me) are content to play a character who starts off weak and grows more relatively powerful over time, and might not therefore weight all levels equally. I love LFQW (even though it doesn't exist really in 5E), and the emotional payoff comes when the Quadratic (actually cubic) part hits its stride and begins to eclipse builds that used to be more powerful. It's the power of long-term thinking.

YMMV though.

[Scirocco]

Thanks. As expected there wasn't a huge difference between Wiz 1/2, but if anyone cares to look:

Wiz 1/Fighter 11

Attacks: 91%
Ability Score Boosts: 82%
Hit Points: 96%

Slight delay in archetype progression, but that's no big deal.

Gains: 1 effective 1st level spell slot, 3 extra spells known that can be swapped out per day (assuming Int 14) which may be from any school, 3 extra cantrips, access to 1st level ritual spells (Comprehend Languages, Find Familiar, Identify, Illusory Script, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant).

Blade Pact War 1 is also an interesting option, though I'd probably avoid Cha dependent abilities unless you're ditching EK entirely.