Another one bites the dust...

[Zaetar]

So, we got this friend that is being DM for our D&D campaigns... 4th meeting, 3 character made. I don't have years of experience in this, but I don't really think this is getting anywhere.

Level 3 Crusader, Healer, Wujen and Barbarian vs 5 Dire Apes. We all died in the third turn. One charge for healer, and one charge for wujen. 1 and half full attack for crusader, 1 full attack for barbarian.

I know about rule 0, but we have just came out of the initial town. One day I'm drinking mead like any other person, the next I'm battling 5 dire apes no farther than 3 km away from the town.

Is there something wrong here? Sadistic DM or colossal bad luck?

[Drrakerr]

Poor understanding of the CR system. Pretty cut and dry.

[Lightlawbliss]

4 dire apes is a cr 7
8 dire apes is a cr 9
so that fight was between CR 7 and CR 8
That is asking for a TPK with a lvl 3 party, especially a low power (likely low OP) group of characters who's players have yet to get used to their characters or figure out exactly how their characters mesh.

This sounds like a DM who doesn't know how to gauge fights and/or a DM who is trying to send a message.

[jaydubs]

Could also be a simulationist DM. But it's worth talking to your DM about in any case, to find out exactly what happened.

[Bad Wolf]

4 dire apes is a cr 7
8 dire apes is a cr 9
so that fight was between CR 7 and CR 8
That is asking for a TPK with a lvl 3 party, especially a low power (likely low OP) group of characters who's players have yet to get used to their characters or figure out exactly how their characters mesh.

This sounds like a DM who doesn't know how to gauge fights and/or a DM who is trying to send a message.

CR 8, if the D20 calculator is correct. But yeah, it seems a bit unfair.

[Sir Garanok]

Ask your dm perhaps smthing went wrong,but i seriously doubt that.

1.Making characters fight higher cr is quite dangerous.

2.Dire apes has intelligence 2.They ain't no drow warparty.
Simultaneously charging the weaker member/healer?
And after that the next weaker?

How did the healer/wu jen look like a threat to a beast and the barbarian/crusader didn't?

He probably wanted to kill you for some reason.

[Zaetar]

Well... he does ignore what we say some times and only sends us through one way no matter what we try as if it was some sort or monorail. And no, he thinks that was a good encounter for our level... I should try to reconsiderate finding another DM -.-

also, cheers for the "and they walked... and walked... and walked..." every 20 minutes

[Lightlawbliss]

Well... he does ignore what we say some times and only sends us through one way no matter what we try as if it was some sort or monorail. And no, he thinks that was a good encounter for our level... I should try to reconsiderate finding another DM -.-

also, cheers for the "and they walked... and walked... and walked..." every 20 minutes

railroading, ignoring players, doesn't understand fight difficulty, can't see players not enjoying the campaign when they literally tell him so... All that's missing is a DMPC. Is there somebody he respects who can teach him the basics of DMing? If the group has tried getting together and talking to him, and that didn't work, I would recommend having another member of the group DM and/or voting with your feet.

[Malak'ai]

Is he new to DM'ing as well? If so, his thinking it was an appropriate encounter can be forgiven slightly, especially if he's just learning how the CR system works (and doesn't work in regards to some creatures).

His railroading/not listening to you is more of a problem. Sometimes it's just because 1) the DM has no idea what he's doing/learning, 2) sometimes it's because they've painted themselves into a corner and it's the only way they can think of to get out of it, 3) others, and this is the bad thing, do it because "it's my story and you're just along for the ride."
I know when I first started DM'ing I quite often, to my shame, fell into the first catagory, but I quickly learnt. Although I do sometimes fall into the second catagory when I just haven't thought things through properly. When that happens, I generally give my players some sort of "free shot" at me in some way eg: a really easy encounter that nets them something nice (not always magical though), and they seem to let it go after that.

My advice would be to try and talk to your DM again, away from the game, and just let him know your concerns. If this doesn't help, then do what you think is best.

[Zaetar]

Im not sure for how long the guy has been mastering but he knows most stuff in many many books. Still we try to point out the bad things here and there, but apparently since the others and i are new to the whole game everything we say, even after doing research, is wrong.

There is no ambientation, he only describes the things of the stuff places or people that are involved in his railroad story. Even if we try doing something else, either he does it in a way we end up doing the same, or gives us negative replies forcing us to go back and do what he told us to do. The dialogues are not produced, are not even how one would do it in real life, they are plain and dont care about anything else. No seriousness at all, not even a tea spoon of it.

Dang we dont even make our own background, he wants to invent it for us. Not even the campaign makes any sense, I know about the rule 0... but seriously at least something that obeys the mechanics of geology and biology... How can someone put the initial town near a spawn of lycantropes and dire animals, right next to a jungle, thats next to a plains, thats next to the main capital? We were walking in the main road and we got ambushed by werebears!

Also, racial diversitication ftw... a small town in middle of nowhere with no healer, where people either dies from rat disease or killed by something else, populated by humans, catfolk, dragon people, goliaths, warforged, dwarves, aasimar and asians...

So no, I'm looking into mastering myself. Sadly, knowing how this guys are, they wont participate or will treat me as ignorant just because i am starting...

Sorry for venting out my frustration here, just wanted to see if i really was wrong here. I'm off to play dragon age again u.u

[Lord of Shadows]

Sorry for venting out my frustration here, just wanted to see if i really was wrong here. I'm off to play dragon age again.

It is possible that there is some backstory that is not obvious, such as some secret pact between some enemy and the town. There is also Gygaxian Naturalism (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/gygaxian-naturalism.html)... Overall, though, it sounds like you have a fan-boy for a DM. He is impressed with how well he has set up how things are "supposed" to work, and you players are there for his benefit, not yours. You can try talking to him like some have said... Or..

Maybe at the next session you should all go off and do other things. Characters have Skills, put a bunch in a Profession or Craft and start making things, and doing things. Roll up a Bard and start singing at the local tavern. If he runs you out of there, stand in the town square and sing. Make a Wizard with Prestidigitation (a.k.a. "Minor Wish") and start helping out the locals. Make a Rogue/Locksmith and offer to "improve security systems." Then, either actually do that, or use the knowledge gained to burglarize. Make a Cleric who heals the sick and injured. When he brings the local church down on you, explain that you are only doing your god's will, according to the rules. Make a fighter who goes about town looking for jobs that require heavy lifting. Offer, or just start doing, common labor around the village. Till peoples gardens, help hang laundry, etc. When NPC's try to get you go a certain way, do exactly the opposite. Force him to bring the encounters to you, if he dares. At least then they will be on your ground and not out in the open. Plus the whole village will (presumably) defend itself.

Hanging out around town a while might also shed some light on any secret backstories, or other shenanigans going on in secret, if there are any.

Eventually, he will complain that you are not following what "he" has planned out, or some similar complaint. When he does, point out that every time you have done that he kills the whole party, and you are tired of TPK's.

[Lightlawbliss]

(snip)

Be warned, this may be a worse solution then walking depending on the DM and how it is executed. However, It could end better. Use with caution.

(saying this from multiple instances of personal experience)

[Lord of Shadows]

Be warned, this may be a worse solution then walking depending on the DM and how it is executed. However, It could end better. Use with caution.

(saying this from multiple instances of personal experience)

It is sort of like poking the dragon with a sharp stick.. but then, maybe the dragon will see the error of his ways.
.

[Zaetar]

Eventually, he will complain that you are not following what "he" has planned out, or some similar complaint. When he does, point out that every time you have done that he kills the whole party, and you are tired of TPK's.

Or I will be just tagged as the ignorant and whinny one and be refused to join further campaigns, which really isn't a bad thing either at this stage of the game.

I love all the suggestions you made, but thought about most of them already. He simply skips me. No nothing while I do other stuff, no one talks to me, no one asks me anything, no one tells me anything, it's as if i didnt exist or as if nothing else that is not where he wanted us to be exist. The guy is so immersed into unbalanced combats and his own storyline that he wont create a world around it. The last time i did what you suggested i spent 8 hours forging few swords, i sold them for nothing because the economy is controlled by him and gold didnt really took me anywhere, there was no exp gained, there was nothing gained at all. Time lost.

For example: Just now, I'm sort of leading the group with a legal good cleric, we are sent east to find a guy that just left a village. In all that trip we didnt know where were we, how was the place, herbs, animals, nothing. The guy was just "and you walked... and saw a fence, what do you do? there is nothing beyond that fence its just a fence", then a witch appears, sleeps us all and shows us dreams. Mine was a bridge breaking down, we eventually after several "and you walked" got to the bridge, but he didnt tell us anything, we asked the status of the bridge and one of the 4 in a haste said "ok we keep going" without asking us, and the DM just sent us to the bridge, which broke down and we fell almost killing us... the thing is, no one said anything, we couldnt. He didnt even give us time.

I'll seriously think about mastering... i dont care if it is online or with a bunch of strangers... It's completly impossible to play an immersive game right now with the group im in. Between this and playing some random single player role game, i choose the latter.

[Tohsaka Rin]

With the Dm's permission, set up a camera to record one of your sessions.

Then make him watch it back in real time.

See how long it takes for him to realise that all the interesting stuff he's picturing in his head, isn't something anyone on the outside can witness.

Stubborn Dms that don't listen are sometimes the worst. They could improve, but they refuse to listen to feedback, or forget that the players are the ones who should be the main focus of the campaign.

[Gwendol]

So, we got this friend that is being DM for our D&D campaigns... 4th meeting, 3 character made. I don't have years of experience in this, but I don't really think this is getting anywhere.

Level 3 Crusader, Healer, Wujen and Barbarian vs 5 Dire Apes. We all died in the third turn. One charge for healer, and one charge for wujen. 1 and half full attack for crusader, 1 full attack for barbarian.

I know about rule 0, but we have just came out of the initial town. One day I'm drinking mead like any other person, the next I'm battling 5 dire apes no farther than 3 km away from the town.

Is there something wrong here? Sadistic DM or colossal bad luck?

One dire ape is a CR3 encounter. I guess you were ambushed as well? D&D isn't a job, it's supposed to be fun. If it's not fun, don't play.

[prufock]

Or I will be just tagged as the ignorant and whinny one and be refused to join further campaigns, which really isn't a bad thing either at this stage of the game.
It sounds like a bad DM, and a bad group in general if they treat your concerns as "whining." Best option is to leave the group, but have fun in the process. I like the suggestions above, but you might also want to try one of the 215 ways to annoy your DM (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ldbv?1001-Ways-to-Annoy-Your-DM).

[Lord of Shadows]

For example: Just now, I'm sort of leading the group with a legal good cleric, we are sent east to find a guy that just left a village. In all that trip we didnt know where were we [were], how was the place, herbs, animals, nothing. The guy was just "and you walked... and saw a fence, what do you do? there is nothing beyond that fence its just a fence", then a witch appears, sleeps us all and shows us dreams. Mine was a bridge breaking down, we eventually after several "and you walked" got to the bridge, but he didnt tell us anything, we asked the status of the bridge and one of the 4 in a haste said "ok we keep going" without asking us, and the DM just sent us to the bridge, which broke down and we fell almost killing us... the thing is, no one said anything, we couldnt. He didnt even give us time.

Uhmmm... OK. I don't know where to begin. I feel myself falling down the rabbit hole.

Sounds like lots of typical "New DM" errors:

Tunnel vision: can only describe what he has already decided is there for his pre-set encounter. Nothing else matters to him, so it shouldn't matter to any of the players, either.
.
Railroad-esque: encounters happen regardless of what the party tries to do to avoid them. Since you have a "sort of" leadership role in this party, the next time some random PC fires off with "we do this," call a time out (literally give the "T" hand sign for time out) and declare that they do not speak for your character, or the party. It's like a point of order in a club meeting. No one but those who are the "sort of leaders" can say stuff like that. The fact that this DM let a non-leader declare an action for the whole party just means that the chosen action "fit" his railroad tracks perfectly.

I'll seriously think about mastering... i dont care if it is online or with a bunch of strangers... It's completly impossible to play an immersive game right now with the group im in. Between this and playing some random single player role game, i choose the latter.

Did you know this bunch before getting involved with them? If not, then not too much invested and easy to walk away. If so, then you may want to try some of the more constructive suggestions for change before walking away.

[Lans]

Remember, 5% of the encounters are supposed to be an EL of 4 or more higher than the party.

[Lightlawbliss]

Remember, 5% of the encounters are supposed to be an EL of 4 or more higher than the party.

That 5% is called boss fights, not group is walking down the road and has a random encounter. I suspect everyone would respond differently if he was complaining his DM's boss fights kept TPKing the group.

[Lord of Shadows]

I like the suggestions above, but you might also want to try one of the 215 ways to annoy your DM (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ldbv?1001-Ways-to-Annoy-Your-DM).

Some of my favorites from a quick skimming of these:
.
12. Play an artificer.
.
13. Play a beguiler with mindsight.
.
59. Make your character a thinly veiled version of the GM's Significant Other (or most desired S.O. if none currently available)
.
60. Have your character, built using #59, try to sleep with every PC and NPC, preferably the moment they're introduced.
.
80. Name your PC after another player in the group.
.
186. Look at your character sheet, giggle. write something on the sheet. Look at DM and smile. Repeat.
Back to the topic at hand, I can't get a handle on what's really going on here. True, the DM seems to be railroading everyone into TPK's, which can be a rookie mistake. But most people should soon realize that this isn't how the game was intended to be played. There are games that play this way, either from the players/DM not knowing any different (unlikely in today's Age of Internet), or from a conscious decision to just ride the railroad and see where it goes, or perhaps a sense of allowing the Rookie DM to make his mistakes and (hopefully) learn from them (which doesn't seem to be happening).

I am curious, are you starting from 1st level, and what are the other player's reactions to these situations?
.

Or I will be just tagged as the ignorant and whinny one and be refused to join further campaigns, which really isn't a bad thing either at this stage of the game.
Is this the DM's response, or from the other players?

[Zaetar]

The tag thing is something of the entire group except one guy that actually respects the other players but hes so busy with university he will stay with the group just because he cant find another DM. The other 2 guys are naturally stubborn people, one thinks he knows everything but second to the DM and the other one plays for stats and doesnt care about roling it, so both will side with the DM, the other one will remain neutral.

I talked with the guy, and still he doesnt think anything he did or made was wrong, he even tells me a reason that i've just refuted by actually showing him proof (material and info) I gathered on the matter so that he can correct it, so trying to reaosn with him is out of the list. (3 vs a bunch of tiny rats in the basement of the house of an old lady in the town got one of us killed and another 2 praying we dont die.)

So no, i'll just let my character die in the next gathering and will try to find some online community or something and play with other people or even master... I did a long research on how to make things balanced or to at least have some logic or sense. If I need to take something out of the hat then i'll do some research on what to do previously to the game, not in the game on a whim without even thinking about it.

The good thing, is that even though this is with actual friends, the dm doesnt live here nor i hang out with them either... we are actually using rolz dice room, playing online, using raidcall and sadly (because the DM is too lazy) we use excel for maps.

[Zombimode]

That 5% is called boss fights, not group is walking down the road and has a random encounter. I suspect everyone would respond differently if he was complaining his DM's boss fights kept TPKing the group.

It's not called "boss fights" anywhere in the rules and there is no mandate that only "boss fights" can be of EL >= APL + 5.

I'm not defending this particular DM here, but the premise that only boss fights can overpower the party is a flawed one (and not supported by the DMG, if thats important for you).

[HighWater]

It's not called "boss fights" anywhere in the rules and there is no mandate that only "boss fights" can be of EL >= APL + 5.

I'm not defending this particular DM here, but the premise that only boss fights can overpower the party is a flawed one (and not supported by the DMG, if thats important for you).

The DMG points out that those fights should be fights from which the PCs are expected to retreat. 5 Dire Apes that ambush 4 level 3 adventurers on their first trip out of town is not an "encounter you retreat from", because half the party is dead before you can execute any retreat... It's poor form even if defended through the "5% of encounters should be a more than 50% chance the PCs would lose if they fight"-clause.

[Lord of Shadows]

So no, i'll just let my character die in the next gathering and will try to find some online community or something and play with other people or even master... I did a long research on how to make things balanced or to at least have some logic or sense. If I need to take something out of the hat then i'll do some research on what to do previously to the game, not in the game on a whim without even thinking about it.
I don't think I'd even bother showing up, given what you have described. It's time to cut and run. Don't think that you have to kill the character or anything.
.

[Zaetar]

The DMG points out that those fights should be fights from which the PCs are expected to retreat. 5 Dire Apes that ambush 4 level 3 adventurers on their first trip out of town is not an "encounter you retreat from", because half the party is dead before you can execute any retreat... It's poor form even if defended through the "5% of encounters should be a more than 50% chance the PCs would lose if they fight"-clause.

Yeah... that's what he said after i showed him the calculator showing it was a CR8 encounter, Very Difficult, 5% chance to happen. "You guys had to retreat, not fight..."... 43 seconds earlier, "guys... let's get out of here, right. now." *Everyone rolls 15+ on move silently checks*, but apparently that wasn't enough to escape from 2 of the apes' very keen ape-ish senses. They just charged and well... you know what happened.

Anyways, the neutral guy will let me try some solo short little campaign with him just to see how i do stuff. Then we will try with another 2 guys. Wish me luck :D

[atemu1234]

If new DM: explain what he is doing wrong.
Old DM: Run.

[darksolitaire]

If new DM: explain what he is doing wrong.
Old DM: Run.

What, no respect for the "good old days"? :smallamused:

[Zaetar]

The good old days ended with quadcore and skyrim i think e.e

I'm off to draw some maps

[Astralia123]

I like to say that, the significantly detailed work required to make every d&d character (even 1st level) requires the character not to be killed every other session, and you go through the weary work from the very beginning once again.


I once tried to run a game that may easily get PC (mostly under optimized) a TPK, but in this case I minimized their effort. There was no annoying detailed starting item purchasing, or character back stories. They frequently encounter EL+4 enemies (but mostly made up with CR 1 or lower monsters).

With this experience I can tell there really is something wrong in your DM's understanding. A game about surviving impossible encounters is not about, say, getting TPK in one round, because that is not fun. Not even for people who can enjoy themselves while their characters become dinner of rats or anything that just killed them.


Good luck to you with DMing :)

[Der_DWSage]

The good old days ended with quadcore and skyrim i think e.e

I'm off to draw some maps

Oh, maps? Here, let me give you some of the tools I use.

http://donjon.bin.sh/

http://pyromancers.com/

...I don't really have much more to add here besides echoing the general consensus of 'No gaming is better than bad gaming.'

[Zaetar]

Oh, maps? Here, let me give you some of the tools I use.

http://donjon.bin.sh/

http://pyromancers.com/

...I don't really have much more to add here besides echoing the general consensus of 'No gaming is better than bad gaming.'

Interesting tools :0

[Blackhawk748]

For overland maps i strongly advise using either Hexographer, or Campaign Cartographer 3. Hexographer has a free version that will fit your needs, but you need to pay for CC3, but it is really nice.

Also, i cast Expeditious Retreat. Run ill hold him off!!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/74679/gandalf-o.gif