Issues with Divine Spell Power

[Morphie]

Guys, I have a player in my group that uses items that increase his caster level when turning undead to fuel up his Divine Spell Power (feat from Complete Divine, page 80) checks - He was able to increase his caster level up to 24 hd and kill every nongood character of 14hd in a 40 ft radius using Holy Word. And he's 13th lvl.
We talked since then and he agreed to just use his own caster level for the check (along with the sacred armor property, because text says it increases your total level by 2 on the turning check.

I've been thinking about it... was his reading of the feat correct all along, or did I miss something and he should've never been able to benefict from magic items when he uses the feat?
I think the feat becomes broken when used that way, what are your thoughts?

Thanks

[Telok]

There is one issue I can think of (I did some research last year during a theory exercise) and that is that the feat says that you make a turning check but most of the boosters say that you turn undead as x-levels higher.

See, the turning check is a Charisma check with a special name, "Turning check". So you're looking for things that boost Charisma checks or Turning checks. Just anything that boosts turn undead generally probably won't apply. Heighten Turning from LM won't work because there's no turning damage. The Phylactery of Undead Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofUndeadTurning) won't do it because the turning check isn't a level check.

Recall too that it is precisely a turning check. The character is not trying to Turn Undead, just making a Charisma check that uses part of that mechanisim.

Edit: Umm, on rereading I see that you are saying "level check". Divine Spell Power is not a level check.
The full text is:
You can spend a turn or rebuke attempt as a free action and roll a turning check (with a special +3 bonus, plus any other modifiers you'd normally apply to your turning check). Treat the result of the turning check as a modifi er to your caster level on the next divine spell you cast in that round.

[Khedrac]

Also how is the player getting over "Cleric's level +4" which is the cap of the turning table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)? All the modifiers to a turning check apply to the roll on the table not to its results (or to the turning damage roll which is irrelevant here).

[Necroticplague]

Also how is the player getting over "Cleric's level +4" which is the cap of the turning table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)? All the modifiers to a turning check apply to the roll on the table not to its results (or to the turning damage roll which is irrelevant here).

Probably through stacking Divine Spell Power multiple tomea, since its a free action to use. But yeah, I'm similarly curious (especially since the feat has a chance to reduce your CL).

[Khedrac]

Probably through stacking Divine Spell Power multiple tomea, since its a free action to use. But yeah, I'm similarly curious (especially since the feat has a chance to reduce your CL).
Hmm, a thought - but since bonuses from the same source (DSP) do not stack you are still capped at +4...

[Necroticplague]

Hmm, a thought - but since bonuses from the same source (DSP) do not stack you are still capped at +4...

That rule you mention only applies to

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies.

Unfortunately, your CL when you cast a spell is neither a check nor a roll. Meanwhile, the rules for spell stacking don't apply because a:the bonus isn't from a spell, and b: the boni aren't of a same type (since they aren't given a type).

One thing I would note to make sure you're player is using it right: things that increase your effective cleric level for purposes of turning (like Sacred armor) actually don't help with this, because this roll doesn't care about the level, it cares about the result on the table, which is -4 to +4 (i.e. a level 1 cleric and level 20 cleric use this feat, and get the same result on the roll, they both get the same + or - from it)

[ace rooster]

Presumably he is stacking it with other effects like bead of karma and good domain. That gets cl up to 22, and there are other items out there.

The only thing that might make this not work is the clause at the end of holy word, which states that creatures with more hit dice than your caster level are unaffected. Note that this is not the caster level of the spell, or your caster level for the purposes of casting spells, but your native unmodified caster level. It still kills any nongood creature with 13hd though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only thing that might make this not work is the clause at the end of holy word, which states that creatures with more hit dice than your caster level are unaffected. Note that this is not the caster level of the spell, or your caster level for the purposes of casting spells, but your native unmodified caster level. It still kills any nongood creature with 13hd though.

That argument is so weak that you'll probably be better off just saying "no, because balance" as a DM. There's tons of CL boosters out there, to the point where you can easily double or even triple your CL without too much trouble and open up all kinds of shenanigans.

A simple agreement to the tune of "keep it reasonable" is probably the best solution to the problem. Insta-killing everything with a single spell isn't reasonable in most campaigns. If your players can't abide by something like that you'll have to get out the Banhammer.

[Telok]

You know what? A 21 HD half-fiend whale is about CR 15...
You said your players were 14 right?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Morphie]

His interpretation was that the turning check was the same as a turn undead attempt, so the maximum hit die he could affect with his turning check would be equal to his own caster level when using the feat. That way, all the items that increase his caster level when turning undead also work, taking his caster level to broken levels with just the cost of one turn dead attempt.

The Math -> +3 bonus on Cha checks by the Circlet of Persuasion + 3 bonus from Divine spell power + Light of Faith (Up to +5) help the turning check reach the maximum bonus (Cleric level + 4), so if you add: Phylactery of Undead turning (4) + Sacred armor enchantment (2) + Scepter of the netherworld (3) + Ephod of Authority (1) = Up to 27 Caster level at level 13.
And this excludes the use of Light of Wisdom (up to +5) because it actually says in the spell's description that the bonus is only usable turn undead.

When we talked about this I told him a turning check is not the same as a turn undead, although you need the first to get the latter, but not all turning checks are used to turn undead since the inclusion of the divine feats from complete divine. We agreed on using just his own caster level for the feat because those magic items are only intended for turning undead, although he later sent me an e-mail asking about the sacred armor enchantment, it says "Sacred armor or a sacred shield increases the owner's effective level for the turning check by +2.". I understand what he's trying to say, because by RAW he's right. But I'm sure that wasn't the RAI.

So, should I just allow the armor enchantment to be used with the feat or should it just stay "Cleric level + 4 max". He's been using this trick for since level 1 and made it one of the bases of his build. Since I've just started being the DM is this AP we're playing, I've only noticed this now and I feel kind of bad of nerfing him. The earlier DMs should have done this, but maybe they didn't see it coming before he had all the magic items.
Do you think this is a reasonable compromise?

[Necroticplague]

I don't even understand how the heck your coming at this from. Your level has no impact on the turn check. How many Undead the turning check would have allowed you to turn is irrelevant. Its simply what you get on the turning check (which is not an actual turn undead). So things that let you turn as if you were higher level don''t help in any way, shape, or form. Also, turning undead doesn't involve your caster level in any way. Looking at what you say, I'm not sure he actually know how turn undead works. So here's how it should work:

Use up turn attempt. roll 1d20+3 bonus for divine spell power special+3 Circlet+X Light of Faith+his CHA mod. Look on the table for turning checks. Compare your results on the left, you get the caster level boost on the right:

-0:-4
1-3:-3
4-6:-2
7-9:-1
10-12:0
13-15:+1
16-18:+2
19-21:+3
22+:+4
These caster level boosts stack, but each attempt uses up another turn attempt and carries the risk of getting a penalty.

[Morphie]

The level has impact on the turning check, in the sense that you can affect with your turning check your cleric level +x (x being the bonus or penalty that results from the turning check).

Those items I mentioned increase the effective level when turning undead, so if a cleric of, let's say, level 10 has a phylactery of undead turning he is effectively level 14 when he's turning undead, and when he makes the check he might get from a -4 to +4 on the maximum hit die of the undeads he may turn. What I tried to explain earlier is that he understands the turn check as being the same thing as a turn undead. I know they are not the same thing.

The "sacred" armor enchantment says it increases your effective level by 2 on your turning check. He's effectively making a turning check when he wants to use the feat, so I understand why he sees that the armor enchantment should help when using the feat.

There's no way I would allow him to use the feat more than once for the same spell, because it doesn't make sense to stack things that come from the same source.

Edit: I understand your view, I'm just trying to explain his view on the feat.

[Khedrac]

if you add: Phylactery of Undead turning (4) + Sacred armor enchantment (2) + Scepter of the netherworld (3) + Ephod of Authority (1)
Now we get into the case of reading the magic item descriptions rather more closely:


Phylactery of Undead Turning ... as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.
Scepter of the Netherworld ... as if three levels higher than his actual level when he uses his turning or rebuking power
Ephod of Authority ... your effective cleric level is treated as one higher than your actual level for the purpose of turning (but not rebuking or commanding) undead.
Sacred armor or a sacred shield increases the owner's effective level for the turning check by +2
Note all of these apart from Sacred Armor only increase the actual level - which is not the level generated by Divine Spell Power. Arguably one can apply one of them before DSP, but only one as they clearly do not stack.
Sacred Armor does stack to help ensure the +4 from DSP.

Moving on to whether or not Turn Boosts can be used on DPS - well it is explicitly called a turning check in complete divine (so Sacred Armor still applies and the Ephod explicitly does not) but the wording of the Phylactery is ambiguous - I would rule probably not, but I think I would rule that the Scepter should apply (also ambiguous).

I hope that helps - it knocks out some of your problems.

Incidentally it is worth doing the same check on the caster level boosts - do they say "higher than actual caster level" or just "increases caster level" - they mean very different things.

[ace rooster]

His interpretation was that the turning check was the same as a turn undead attempt, so the maximum hit die he could affect with his turning check would be equal to his own caster level when using the feat. That way, all the items that increase his caster level when turning undead also work, taking his caster level to broken levels with just the cost of one turn dead attempt.

The Math -> +3 bonus on Cha checks by the Circlet of Persuasion + 3 bonus from Divine spell power + Light of Faith (Up to +5) help the turning check reach the maximum bonus (Cleric level + 4), so if you add: Phylactery of Undead turning (4) + Sacred armor enchantment (2) + Scepter of the netherworld (3) + Ephod of Authority (1) = Up to 27 Caster level at level 13.
And this excludes the use of Light of Wisdom (up to +5) because it actually says in the spell's description that the bonus is only usable turn undead.

When we talked about this I told him a turning check is not the same as a turn undead, although you need the first to get the latter, but not all turning checks are used to turn undead since the inclusion of the divine feats from complete divine. We agreed on using just his own caster level for the feat because those magic items are only intended for turning undead, although he later sent me an e-mail asking about the sacred armor enchantment, it says "Sacred armor or a sacred shield increases the owner's effective level for the turning check by +2.". I understand what he's trying to say, because by RAW he's right. But I'm sure that wasn't the RAI.

So, should I just allow the armor enchantment to be used with the feat or should it just stay "Cleric level + 4 max". He's been using this trick for since level 1 and made it one of the bases of his build. Since I've just started being the DM is this AP we're playing, I've only noticed this now and I feel kind of bad of nerfing him. The earlier DMs should have done this, but maybe they didn't see it coming before he had all the magic items.
Do you think this is a reasonable compromise?

Ah, I see the issue: It is that divine spell power is badly written :smallsigh:. Divine spell power assumes that the turning check applies a "modifier" to your level for the purpose of affecting undead, but it does not. Your turning check result is a number, say 22, without a + or - in front of it. It simply does not make sense to apply 22 to your caster level. I see four possible ways of ruling this.

1: Ignore the wording of divine spell power completely and say it sets your caster level at your turning check. This way does mean that items that boost level for the purposes of turning checks increase CL.

2: Reword turning so that your maximum affected undead is equal to your effective cleric level plus a 'turning modifier' (which is between -4 and +4 from the table). Functionally this is identical to turning as written (Just puts a step in the middle of the calculation, which defines turning modifier), but with this wording divine spell power actually makes sense (As turning modifier now exists). Cleric level boosting items do not boost caster level now, as they are applied to your effective cleric level rather than the turning modifier. This is RAI for divine spell power I think.

3: Just put a + in front of your turning check and call it a modifier. This will effectively double caster levels and more, so is not recomended. Included for completeness.

4: Just put a - in front of your turning check and call it a modifier. This will effectively reduce caster levels to 0, so is not recomended. Included for completeness.

If you want to go strict RAW, it doesn't do anything. (Turning check modifier is not defined, so defaults to 0)

[Crake]

I'm amazed at the number of people in this thread who don't know what they're talking about.

[Morphie]

I'm amazed at the number of people in this thread who don't know what they're talking about.

Well, that sure helps a lot, care to expose your opinion and contribute to the discussion in a positive way?

[Telok]

Well, that sure helps a lot, care to expose your opinion and contribute to the discussion in a positive way?
The feat Divive Spell Power is actually rather simple if you just read it.

You spend a turning attempt as a free action.
You roll a turning check with a +3 bonus.
You compare your result to the turning check table in the Player's Handbook and use that result as a modifier to the caster level of the spell you cast.

That's it. You are not making a turn attempt. Your cleric levels have no part in this. Things that give you a bonus on level checks or the number of hit dice of undead you affect do not modify this. You can not exceed a +4 caster level bonus with this because the turning check chart does not have any bonus more than +4. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not turning undead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's it. You are not making a turn attempt. Your cleric levels have no part in this. Things that give you a bonus on level checks or the number of hit dice of undead you affect do not modify this. You can not exceed a +4 caster level bonus with this because the turning check chart does not have any bonus more than +4. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not turning undead.

While all this is true it isn't the real problem. Getting the necessary CL increase to make Holy Word kill anything not immune to magic is trivial. Banning Holy Word still leaves countless other tricks to make combat absolutely meaningless.
If your players can't be trusted - or at least taught - not to break the game you either need a massive banlist or find new players.

[Telok]

While all this is true it isn't the real problem.
True, hence my half-fiend whale comment earlier. But I was responding to the chap who wanted to know why some of us thought that... let's be nice and say "This is really easy if you read the feat. The only issue is if you don't read the feat."

[ace rooster]

The feat Divive Spell Power is actually rather simple if you just read it.

You spend a turning attempt as a free action.
You roll a turning check with a +3 bonus.
You compare your result to the turning check table in the Player's Handbook and use that result as a modifier to the caster level of the spell you cast.

That's it. You are not making a turn attempt. Your cleric levels have no part in this. Things that give you a bonus on level checks or the number of hit dice of undead you affect do not modify this. You can not exceed a +4 caster level bonus with this because the turning check chart does not have any bonus more than +4. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not making a turn undead check. You are not turning undead.

Not quite.

1. You spend a turn attempt. Yes fine, this is clear.

2. You roll a turning check with a +3 bonus. Again clear.

3. You apply your "turning check modifer" to your caster level. This is where it gets messy, and you have made up what you do next.

Lets look at what your "turning check modifier" could be. Your attack modifier is the number you add to an attack roll. Your skill check modifiers are the numbers you add to skill check rolls. Your ability check modifers are the numbers you add to ability checks. The natural definition of "turning check modifer" (outside the context of DSP) is the modifier you apply to turning checks. It is not even as if the result of a turning check is a modifier, and then you turn undead of max HD equal to your cleric level + modifier. The result of a turning check is the max HD of undead you can turn: a number.

We generally apply common sense and reject the natural definition in the case of DSP, as it means that the result of the turning check is meaningless and the example given does not work, and we have to look for another. Arbitrarily pulling a number out of the middle of the calculations in the turning check table is the next most obvious way, but it gives us no information as to whether other numbers that affect those calculations also have an impact.

The wording of DSP requires you to make judgements as to what they want you to do, and assumes that everyone will make the same call. Using terms without definition and assuming that everyone will come up with the same definition is bad writing, even if 99% of people do.

It is 'simple' if you read it as they intended first time, and you don't read it too closely. I do.

[Keld Denar]

Things that add +turning check or +cha check work with DSP. Things that say +turn level like a Phylactery of Undead Turning or the Improved Turning feat do not. That is all.

It is still possible to stack up +CL bumps with DSP, though. A Bead of Karma and Orange Iwin Stone etc, all stack up.

Or you can just do what I do. Ban Blasphemy/HolyWord/Dictum/WordofChaos/WordofBalance. They weren't balanced to begin with, and they usually end up screwing the players more often than not. I don't mind removing it. Its a very simple balance fix, IMO. Holy Word is just about as abusable than Gate because of the uncapped CL feature of it.

[Telok]

It is 'simple' if you read it as they intended first time, and you don't read it too closely. I do.

Man, you lost me. I can't tell what you're talking about any more. The only "turning check modifier" sort of thing I can think of is the modifier on the turning check table in the PH. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to modify the result after it is read off the chart. I'm away from my books right now but I'll look at Divine Spell Power again and see if I can figure out any other way to interpret it.

Edit: I looked. The only confusion is if you don't read the example and then assume that the rolled turning check is the modifier.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Man, you lost me.

Ditto. The intent is pretty clear to me, too. The writers make vague rules sometimes, but I think sometimes people are also too quick to bash them over entirely reasonable text.