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Pinkcrusade

2014-10-13, 08:33 PM

atemu1234

2014-10-13, 08:40 PM

Combine Skulk with optimized dexterity scores, throw in max ranks in hide, move silently and sleight of hand. Done.

Val666

2014-10-13, 09:00 PM

I know that a very good rougish/thief/SKILL MONKEY class is Factotum. You can go full Factotum or add your base/prestige class of choice.

Jowgen

2014-10-13, 09:01 PM

Master Pickpocket, from City of Stormreach, is absolutely vital if you want to be serious about literally stealing everything someone has on their body.

AvatarVecna

2014-10-13, 09:21 PM

Before I post some suggestions, what are you looking for? Obviously, magic wins eventually in the theft game, but if you're looking for mundane thievery, there's still lots of options: ultimate pickpocket, ultimate infiltrator, ultimate conman...all are mundane thieves optimizing certain skills, all for the goal of taking in as much cash as possible.

Whatcha looking for?

infomatic

2014-10-13, 09:40 PM

Psychic Rogue14/Elocater6? Plenty of skills, Skill Mastery, powers include Retrieve, Plane Shift, Teleport.

Pinkcrusade

2014-10-13, 09:48 PM

Perhaps a combination of the ones you listed along with some magic of some sort. I was thinking of a hiest-focused character who is above petty thievery of robbing nobles, but intends to steal -major- items, such as airships of Eberron or objects of immense value.

Pinkcrusade

2014-10-13, 09:50 PM

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060731190450/wowwiki/images/7/7c/Ethereal.jpg

Would a mage work, possibly? Also, are there anyways to make a character look something like what was linked?

Val666

2014-10-13, 09:52 PM

Dry Lich e.e? Refflufed Caster Warforged? Mummy? I don't know :v

Rickshaw

2014-10-13, 11:37 PM

I feel arcane trickster deserves an honorable mention here. Flavor wise i think it fits rp great, esp with at will ranged pick pocketing. Combined with things like spell warp sniper (if 3.5, it almost stands on its own if pf) it can function well in combat too.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-10-13, 11:56 PM

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14, get Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. Beguiler has one of the best spell lists in the game for this type of thing, and a perfect class skill list with tons of skill points/level.

Magical Training gives you a spellbook which you can scribe additional spells into just as a Wizard does per the Rules Compendium. You must learn these spells before putting them into your spellbook, so these are spells you know. You can use Versatile Spellcaster to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including the spells in your spellbook. This gives you access to potentially any Wizard spell in the game, though you may need to have your spellbook open to the spell in question when casting it, limiting this to noncombat situations.

Versatile Spellcaster also enables you to spend two of your highest level spell slots to cast a spell you know of one level higher, giving you early access to the next level of Beguiler spells and enabling you to select spells of one level higher for Advanced Learning. With that Mindbender dip your Advanced Learning spells can be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level. Pick Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.

Get Mindsight in Lords of Madness, you can automatically detect creatures with an intelligence score and can even see their Int scores just as easily as observing someone's physical features. This gives you superb targets for Ray of Stupidity, especially with (Lesser Rod of) Maximize and even Split Ray. It automatically disables animals in a single hit as well. Take Darkstalker also in Lords of Madness and opponents attempting to use Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense, and similar to detect you will still have to make a Spot or Listen check, whichever is more difficult, to notice you with that ability. Get a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis in Tome of Magic or just get the Shadow Creature template from that book and buy off the level adjustment, and you'll have Hide in Plain Sight.

With a Belt of the Wide Earth in MIC you can spend your own spell slots to cast Teleport 2/day for escaping with your spoils. Beguiler gets (Rod of Extended) Swift Etherealness which allows you to walk through walls, and you can use Shadow Form plus Escape Artist to get through any barrier that would normally block that for gaining entry. Combined with (Greater, Superior) Invisibility and possibly even Silence (and a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell), as well as illusions to conceal the fact that you've retrieved your objective, nobody will even be aware of your crime before it's too late. Between divination spells and plain old Gather Information checks, not to mention Glibness for when it's necessary as well as enchantments, you shouldn't have any difficulty finding targets.

OldTrees1

2014-10-14, 12:08 AM

Silver Key is a really nice Thief prestige class. You gain knowledge dealing with magical defenses and get the precious "I disarm from a safe range".

Unfortunately is it Ebberon and Dwarven.

Gwendol

2014-10-14, 01:30 AM

Seconding beguiler. Highly adaptable and capable. Maybe coupled with Unseen Seer?

ILM

2014-10-14, 03:06 AM

Silver Key is a really nice Thief prestige class. You gain knowledge dealing with magical defenses and get the precious "I disarm from a safe range".

Unfortunately is it Ebberon and Dwarven.
Yup. Aside from "play a wizard", that's what I would have gone for too.

edit: uh, is it just me or can you get in at level 4 without any shenanigans?

OldTrees1

2014-10-14, 03:09 AM

Yup. Aside from "play a wizard", that's what I would have gone for too.

edit: uh, is it just me or can you get in at level 4 without any shenanigans?

Yes it is intended as Rogue 3 / Silver Key 2
From there you could jump into Trapsmith 5 to get some nice spell.

So my alternative to Arcane Trickster is Rogue 3 / Silver Key 2 / Trapsmith 5. You even get some nice 5th-6th level spells at ECL 10. All while staying true to your Rogue roots.

ILM

2014-10-14, 03:30 AM

Very cool. Missed that the first time.

Fouredged Sword

2014-10-14, 06:56 AM

I think the logical TO extension of this is the goblin lightning thieves. Abusing the ability to make epic level slight of hand checks allows them to move unlimited distances and steal everything... as free actions. :smalltongue:

If you can pull off a DC 110 slight of hand check without fail, you can do this trick.

nedz

2014-10-14, 07:20 AM

Beguiler is what you are looking for, but be warned it doesn't do combat.

Pick up the Travel domain via Arcane Disciple and then take the Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat and bamf around all day.

Magesmiley

2014-10-14, 09:15 AM

For a race, consider the Whisper Gnome (RoS) with the Dark template (ToM). Hide in Plain Sight with a +12 bonus to Hide and +10 on Move Silently for +1 LA is not to be underestimated for sneaky characters, especially at low levels.

Vogonjeltz

2014-10-14, 04:23 PM

Greetings, Playground.

My next character design is creating the ultimate thief -- his/her combat doesn't have to be stellar, but I would like it to possess wonderful out-of-combat potential.

The idea originally manifested when looking at the Jaunter class: teleport into a bank, steal some currency and if anything goes wrong just teleport out again; looking to steal a ship? Teleport on board along with a small group of people, take it over, if it doesn't work just teleport.

So, anything that would contribute to being the epitome of thievery would be great.

You might take a look at the Complete Scoundrel and Complete Adventurer Prestige Classes. Thief-Acrobat comes to mind.

If you're looking for base classes, the Rogue is the obvious choice. Spellthief, Ninja, Scout, Beguiler, and Factotum are all Rogue variants that give up something from the standard rogue skill set/class features to do other things.

If you really just want to focus on having the thief skills maximized, it's pretty much Rogue.

Here's the breakdown:
Beguiler: Loses 2 skill points/lvl. Loses Craft, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Rope. Gets concentration, knowledge (arcana), speak language, and spellcraft.
Factotum: Loses 2 skill points/lvl while gaining access to all other skills. The thing is, nothing gained is necessary, or even very useful, for thievery. There isn't a thief-esque skill that Rogue doesn't already have, so this is pretty useless if your goal is just to be a master thief.
Ninja: Loses 2 skill points/lvl. Loses Appraise, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Perform, Profession, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope. Gain concentration. Ninja also gets some bonuses to climb, jump, and tumble, but these only equate to +18 skill points which is not enough to offset the -46 from the fewer skill points per level.
Scout: Upgrades to d8 hit die. Loses Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Open Lock, Perform, Profession, and Use Magic Device. Gains knowledge (dungeoneering), knowledge (geography), knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival. Skills gained aren't particularly useful for thievery, skills lost are. Net loss.
Spellthief: Loses 2 skill points/lvl. Loses Balance, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope. Gains Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Speak Language, and Spellcraft. Again, skills lost are fairly central to thievery, skills gained aren't. Net loss.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-14, 05:14 PM

Beguiler is what you are looking for, but be warned it doesn't do combat.

What? Yes it does. I mean, it's definitely better out of combat, but it has some really good debuffs and illusions are pretty good at BFC.

But, yeah, I'll chime in with support for Beguiler too.

nedz

2014-10-15, 03:01 AM

What? Yes it does. I mean, it's definitely better out of combat, but it has some really good debuffs and illusions are pretty good at BFC.

But, yeah, I'll chime in with support for Beguiler too.

I meant actual melee, but whatever.

Chronos

2014-10-15, 09:27 AM

ILM

2014-10-15, 11:01 AM

--edit: nevermind--

New question: does any item grant Hide in Plain Sight (Su or Ex) aside from the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis?

OldTrees1

2014-10-15, 11:56 AM

Of the two builds below, which do you think is better?

1. Shadow-Walker (+1 LA) Rogue 3/ Silver Key 10/ Trapsmith 5/ Exotic Weapon Master 1

2. Shadow-Walker (+1 LA) Factotum 3/ Marshal 1/ Fighter 1/ Trapsmith 1/ Silver Key 10/ EWM 2/ Exemplar 1

EWM is because I envision the character using hand crossbows and I like the ranged disarm. I guess you might replace it with other stuff.
The second build gets much improved relevant skills and a bunch of skill masteries, but less overall skill points. It is slightly worse off in the BAB department but may have a few other combat options (EWM 2). It virtually doesn't get any of the awesome Trapsmith casting, however.

Opinions?
Why Fighter? I would go Martial Rogue over Fighter even with lower BAB.

Personally I would keep Trapsmith 5 because it has some really nice spells.

I would consider decreasing the levels in Silver Key. I only like 1st, 2nd and 10th levels in that class and 3rd-9th is a heavy cost for 10th. Using Trapsmith to enter Silver Key with fewer Rogue levels is a neat trick so I would keep that. Doing so also allows you to keep the Factotum 3 / Marshal 1 for +Int and +Cha. At that point an Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2 is not a unreasonable replacement for that Fighter 1.

Factotum 2 / Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2 / Factotum +1* / Trapsmith 1 / Silver Key 2 / Trapsmith +1 / Marshal 1 / Exemplar 1 / Trapsmith +3** / Exotic Weapon Master 3 / Exemplar +3?

*This level was delayed to make skill prerequisites easier to figure/fix.
**These levels were delayed because Exemplar owns the 11th class level.

ILM

2014-10-15, 12:11 PM

I actually felt kind of guilty about hijacking the thread, but thanks for chiming in! I was trying to make SK 10 work but your points are well taken. And, now that I think about it, with the crummy BAB this character ends up with, EWM levels are really kind of a waste anyway - ranged disarm is cool when its Indiana Jones, but if you can't hit a barn from 30 ft away...

LTwerewolf

2014-10-15, 12:14 PM

I'd second factotum at least 3 (8 is better) in your build. You're not after the extra class skills (although they don't hurt), you're after brains over brawn and cunning surge. Brains over brawn gives you int to dex and str skills. Dex+int to balance, climb, hide, move silently, open lock, ride (for those epic escapes), sleight of hand, tumble, and use rope. Basically everything that isn't disable device that's a thief skill. Cunning surge lets you accomplish it faster, which helps avoid detection. If you can scale the wall, distract the guard, break the safe, and rescale the wall before the guard stops being distracted, it makes things that much easier.

OldTrees1

2014-10-15, 12:24 PM

To return to the OP, how can we combine Jaunter into this. Jaunter covers one area that Trapsmith is lacking in (Planeshift).

Factotum 3
Marshal 1
Exemplar 1
Trapsmith 5
Silver Key 2
Jaunter 4
Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2

How about:
Factotum 1/ Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2 / Factotum +2 / Trapsmith 1 / Silver Key 2 / Marshal 1 / Exemplar 1 / Jaunter 4 / Trapsmith +4 / Exemplar +2?

Those last 2 levels are open.

@ILM, 11ish BAB is not bad as long as you get other attack bonuses (attack scales faster than AC in D&D) and only the first 2 attacks(BAB/BAB-5) really matter.

Chronos

2014-10-15, 02:33 PM

@ILM, 11ish BAB is not bad as long as you get other attack bonuses (attack scales faster than AC in D&D) and only the first 2 attacks(BAB/BAB-5) really matter.
These two statements contradict each other. If you can put on enough extra bonuses to make low BAB acceptable, then you can also put on enough bonuses to make the later iteratives worthwhile.

OldTrees1

2014-10-15, 04:20 PM

These two statements contradict each other. If you can put on enough extra bonuses to make low BAB acceptable, then you can also put on enough bonuses to make the later iteratives worthwhile.

Before or after taking into account the opportunity cost to get the higher BAB?

Also:
Dropping from +15 BAB to +11 BAB is only 4 points to make up. That BAB-10 attack is 5 points less than the BAB-5 attack. 4 < 5.

LTwerewolf

2014-10-15, 05:21 PM

Wraithstrike pretty much negates the need for high attack on the vast majority of creatures in the game, and is easily accessible by a skillmonkey.