Same Spell, Different Levels. Advantage?

[Rubik]

Are there any advantages to knowing multiple iterations of the same spell or psionic power at different levels?

There's the DC boost for having a higher level version and the benefits of being able to use a lower level spell slot to cast it, of course, but assuming one takes the lower slot version and has Heighten Spell available (and you don't have extended casting times for metamagicking the spell), are there any other benefits of knowing both?

I know that the metamind revamp from If Thoughts Could Kill can temporarily sacrifice one power known in exchange for extra power points, so you could sack the one you aren't using for the day and get extra juice out of it.

Any other benefits?

[Troacctid]

You can power reserve feats more easily?

[Snowbluff]

Some spells specify a level. IIRC, Spell Immunity and Globe of Invulnerability.

[Andezzar]

You can power reserve feats more easily?With different effects though. Most reserve feats give an at will ability whose power is determined by the level of the spell. So the lower level spell will confer a weaker ability.


Some spells specify a level. IIRC, Spell Immunity and Globe of Invulnerability.As long as you have one iteration of the spell that is high enough, there is no benefit for having the lower level one as well.

[Chronos]

Having the lower-level version is always a benefit, since if you're in a situation where the spell level isn't directly a benefit (which is most situations), you can use a cheaper slot to cast it. Having the higher-level version is a benefit whenever the Heighten Spell feat would be a benefit, which includes save DCs, reserve feats, and Globe of Invulnerability.

That said, if you happen to have the lower-level version and Heighten Spell anyway, I can see no benefit in also having the higher-level version: Everything you can do with it, you can do by heightening the lower one.

[Red Fel]

Having the lower-level version is always a benefit, since if you're in a situation where the spell level isn't directly a benefit (which is most situations), you can use a cheaper slot to cast it. Having the higher-level version is a benefit whenever the Heighten Spell feat would be a benefit, which includes save DCs, reserve feats, and Globe of Invulnerability.

That said, if you happen to have the lower-level version and Heighten Spell anyway, I can see no benefit in also having the higher-level version: Everything you can do with it, you can do by heightening the lower one.

This.

As an aside, I note that in the OP, you mention "spell or psionic power." Thing is, there really aren't different levels of the same psionic power. There are more powerful versions of some powers (e.g. Psionic X and Greater Psionic X), but generally, psionics does away with the concept almost altogether through the augmenting system. A given power has a base level, and then you can choose to (or not to) augment beyond that, based on your ML.

But yes. Heighten Spell obviates the need to have a higher-level instance of the same spell, except to satisfy specific prerequisites.

[Rubik]

As an aside, I note that in the OP, you mention "spell or psionic power." Thing is, there really aren't different levels of the same psionic power. There are more powerful versions of some powers (e.g. Psionic X and Greater Psionic X), but generally, psionics does away with the concept almost altogether through the augmenting system. A given power has a base level, and then you can choose to (or not to) augment beyond that, based on your ML.Tell that to Hustle, which is "egoist 3, psychic warrior 2." Or Perfect Archery, which is both "psychic warrior 2," and "psychic warrior 3."


But yes. Heighten Spell obviates the need to have a higher-level instance of the same spell, except to satisfy specific prerequisites.Yes, Heighten Spell is a thing, but I've already listed at least two cases wherein having two different levels of a spell or power known is a good thing (Heighten without longer casting times and sequestering the power for a revamped metamind). I'm not so much looking for reasons why not, but for reasons why.

[edit] Oh, and there's one more reason for psionic manifesters. There are effects which block lower level powers, but there's no metapsionic version of Heighten Spell, meaning the only way to use, say, Swarm of Crystals in that case is by knowing a higher level version of it. Whiiiiich Snowbluff and Chronos already mentioned. Oops.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Assuming any of these types of spells meet the qualifications for it, there's also a level restriction on the war weaver's signature ability. So if you have a spell at 5th and again at 7th, the former would work with the tapestry but not the latter, barring means of increasing your effective war weaver level, of course.

[Psyren]

Another way to mimic a "higher level spell/power" is with Limited Wish/Bend Reality. So, say Swarm of Crystals is truly your only option in a given fight but your foe has a globe up - it's expensive, but you can generate a 6th-level version to beat it.

[Rubik]

Another way to mimic a "higher level spell/power" is with Limited Wish/Bend Reality. So, say Swarm of Crystals is truly your only option in a given fight but your foe has a globe up - it's expensive, but you can generate a 6th-level version to beat it.Thanks for the response. I knew about that, but I hadn't considered it in light of the questions I asked.

Much appreciated.

[ShurikVch]

Wands allow spells of 4th level or lower; potions - 3rd level or lower (unless you are Master Alchemist)

Lower-level versions of spells allow to get them into potions/wands (or, at least, make it cheaper)

[Rubik]

Wands allow spells of 4th level or lower; potions - 3rd level or lower (unless you are Master Alchemist)

Lower-level versions of spells allow to get them into potions/wands (or, at least, make it cheaper)Something similar goes with just about any magic item, but scrolls count, too.

Unrelated to this thread but pertinent to this subject: There is a feat in Dragon Magazine called Forceful Spell, which decreases a metamagicked spell's level by -1 1/day, with no lower limit. Take that and the Sanctum Spell feat in order to make magic items (especially scrolls, potions, and wands) two levels lower than normal. Just be judicious about which spells you use it on, because some decrease in usefulness at a lower level, primarily due to lower DCs. Some are just fine, though. For instance, Ray of Stupidity is lowered to a cantrip by this method with no actual drawbacks beyond taking and applying the feats, so you end up creating a scroll for a mere 12.5 gp and 1 xp, rather than 75 gp and 6 xp.

[Andezzar]

Not to mention that you could create wands of normally 5th level spells

[Rubik]

Not to mention that you could create wands of normally 5th level spellsAnd 6ths, too, since they count as 4ths.

[Andezzar]

True, I forgot about the -1 from sanctum spell. You are not creating wands in your sanctum, right?

[Rubik]

True, I forgot about the -1 from sanctum spell. You are not creating wands in your sanctum, right?Yes, of course, because cancelling out the benefits we're trying to get is exactly what I'm going for. :smallwink: