Forgotten Realms deity for a black widow

[Jeff the Green]

I'm looking for a FR deity a black widow—that is, a woman who kills several lovers—could be devoted to. (If it's relevant, she'd need to be some race likely to seduce a half-elf.) My Realms lore isn't great, so I'm hoping the Plaground can help me. Ideas?

[jedipotter]

Sune the goddess of love. She allows CN worshipers.

Loviatar the goddess of pain

Malar the god of blood and beasts

Mask the god of thieves

Shar the goddess of darkness and loss

Talona the goddess of poison

Hoar the god of revenge

and, of course:

Sharess goddess of lust, hedonism, excess, pleasure and sensual fulfillment


Though it would depend why she was a Black Widow. Sune works for a woman who lost her love of a life time, so she now ''kills love''. Mask works if she is a theif, killing men to get thier money. Shar works for the ultimate heartless type who feels they will never know love. Hoar works if the woman is out for revenge. Talona and Lovitair works if she just likes to kill men. Malar works if she is just crazy, and likes to kill men all bloody.

[DeltaEmil]

There's Lolth, who's the dark elf spider goddess all about dominating men and being randomly crazy.
There's Loviatar, who in the Forgotten Realms is a leather bondage S/M goddess that has an entire nation of half-drow worshiping her and being evil and nasty and almost like normal Lolth-worshipping drows.
There's Shar, the goddess of evil stuff and secrets and nihilism.
There's Beshaba, the goddess of misfortune and general bad luck.
There's also Cyric, the mad god of murder, trickery, and insanity, if you want something male.
There's Mask, the male god of thieves and trickery and stealing stuff.
There's Tiamat, who's all about greed and vandalism.

[Jeff the Green]

Sune the goddess of love. She allows CN worshipers.

Sharess goddess of lust, hedonism, excess, pleasure and sensual fulfillment

...in what world would such a woman be neutral? I mean, D&D morality is messed up, but it's not that messed up. Seducing and murdering people is Evil except in the most extreme cases.

In fact, these seem like two goddesses who would take personal offense at a follower murdering lovers.

[Phelix-Mu]

...in what world would such a woman be neutral? I mean, D&D morality is messed up, but it's not that messed up. Seducing and murdering people is Evil except in the most extreme cases.

In fact, these seem like two goddesses who would take personal offense at a follower murdering lovers.

From what I recall, I'm not sure Sharess would care. Her doctrine seemed largely self-centered, and not concerned with the general acceptance of how one is getting their kicks. So if this black widow gets off on murdering her lover, then that might fit. If she's cold and calculating and sees the sex as a necessary chore, maybe not so much.

[Jeff the Green]

More so than Sune, yes, but she's still CG and opposes Shar and Loviatar and supports Sune, Llira, and Hanali Celanil, so non-consensual sadism is clearly outside of her bailiwick. If she were really about personal pleasure with no concern for ethics, she'd almost certainly be CN.

Plus she started off as Bast. That's a deity you don't want to piss off.

[Phelix-Mu]

More so than Sune, yes, but she's still CG and opposes Shar and Loviatar and supports Sune, Llira, and Hanali Celanil, so non-consensual sadism is clearly outside of her bailiwick. If she were really about personal pleasure with no concern for ethics, she'd almost certainly be CN.

Plus she started off as Bast. That's a deity you don't want to piss off.

Wait, didn't you stipulate that your Realms lore wasn't great? :smalltongue:

I seem to have been confusing Loviatar and Sharess, after looking at my book. Damn you, EXALTED, making me forget so much about D&D! It's like when I transferred from the local public school to a private high school; suddenly, it's like I can't remember names at all!

[jedipotter]

...in what world would such a woman be neutral? I mean, D&D morality is messed up, but it's not that messed up. Seducing and murdering people is Evil except in the most extreme cases.

In fact, these seem like two goddesses who would take personal offense at a follower murdering lovers.

Chaotic Neutral is vaguely described as a true hedonist, they are interested in fulfilling their desires, and in pursuing their own interests. That fits a black widow to a tee. They are not evil because their desires are not especially evil (or they have too much of a conscience), but neither are they altruistic enough to be considered good


Just take the classic black widow how gets married for a while, until she gets bored, then she kills off her husband and gets a new one...over and over and over again.

For Sune (or any god/goddess) it is important to remember that she is the goddess of Love. And that is all types of love, not just Disney rated G love. So that counts for jealous love, unrequited love, lost love, selfish love and lots of other darker loves.

And Sharess is the goddess of hedonism.

[Jeff the Green]

Wait, didn't you stipulate that your Realms lore wasn't great? :smalltongue:

No, but my wiki-fu (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) is a bit better (and I love the Heartwarder, so I know a bit more about Sune than the rest of the FR pantheon). :smallbiggrin: I would have just combed through there, but it's contaminated by 4e and not everything is sourced as well as Sharess's page.

Edit:

Chaotic Neutral is vaguely described as a true hedonist, they are interested in fulfilling their desires, and in pursuing their own interests. That fits a black widow to a tee. They are not evil because their desires are not especially evil (or they have too much of a conscience), but neither are they altruistic enough to be considered good


Just take the classic black widow how gets married for a while, until she gets bored, then she kills off her husband and gets a new one...over and over and over again.


What? Exactly how is "I want to kill my husband because I'm bored of him" not an evil desire? Or really anything that starts with "I want to kill my husband" and doesn't end in "because he's trying to kill/severely injure me/someone else" or "because he's in enormous pain and asked for help dying"?

Chaotic Neutral is benign hedonism. The kind of hedonism that ends in bathing in the blood of virgins is Chaotic Evil.


For Sune (or any god/goddess) it is important to remember that she is the goddess of Love. And that is all types of love, not just Disney rated G love. So that counts for jealous love, unrequited love, lost love, selfish love and lots of other darker loves.

And Sharess is the goddess of hedonism.

This is Sune's doctrine:

Beauty is more than skin deep. It issues from the core of one's being and reveals one's true face to the world, fair or foul. Believe in romance, as true love will win over all. Follow your heart to your true destination. Love none more than yourself except Sune, and lose yourself in love of the Lady Firehair. Perform a loving act each day, and seek to awaken love in others. Respond to love at least once in a day. Encourage beauty wherever you find it. Acquire beautiful items of all sorts, and encourage, sponsor, and protect those who create them. Keep your own body as comely as possible and as attractively displayed as situations warrant. Let hairstyle and clothing best suit your personal appearance, striving to stir and delight others who look upon you. Moreover, hide not away, but always seek to present yourself to those around you in a pleasing variety of garbs and activities so as to move them with love and desire. Love those who respond to your appearance, and let warm friendship and admiration flower where love cannot or dares not.
Which is utterly incompatible with those kinds of "love".

[jedipotter]

What? Exactly how is "I want to kill my husband because I'm bored of him" not an evil desire? Or really anything that starts with "I want to kill my husband" and doesn't end in "because he's trying to kill/severely injure me/someone else" or "because he's in enormous pain and asked for help dying"?

Ok, so your view is very black and white. That is fine. You'd say a woman who kills her husband, lets say once every ten years or so, is a evil person. So one ''accident murder'' every decade makes her evil, even if she does no other evil acts for the whole other time.

Though your not just saying ''killing anyone for any reason'' is evil right? So a CN woman could kill her abusive husband and not be ''pure evil'', right? Maybe even a CN woman could kill her cheating husband without being ''pure evil''.




This is Sune's doctrine:

Which is utterly incompatible with those kinds of "love".

Well......lets see how can I put this. The company that made that book is viewed as a ''kid company''. That is that they make books and games for kids. And they would say themselves that they only target kids, and don't care about adults. So the end result is a very kid friendly ''rated G'' book.

This is the exact reason not a single innocent civilian in New York City was hurt or killed by the invading aliens in The Avengers.

But if you take the more adult view, you'd know a lot of people in New York died in the alien attack. The same way you can view love as more adult, then what a company publishing things for kids can put in a book.

[Jeff the Green]

Ok, so your view is very black and white. That is fine. You'd say a woman who kills her husband, lets say once every ten years or so, is a evil person. So one ''accident murder'' every decade makes her evil, even if she does no other evil acts for the whole other time.

Though your not just saying ''killing anyone for any reason'' is evil right? So a CN woman could kill her abusive husband and not be ''pure evil'', right? Maybe even a CN woman could kill her cheating husband without being ''pure evil''.

Who said "pure evil"? More importantly, who said this is my ethical viewpoint? It isn't. It is the viewpoint of BoVD and BoED, the primary sources on alignment. Murder of a non-undead, non-evil outsider is Evil except in very rare circumstances (specifically, to kill someone who is trying to hurt people).

It also doesn't give a metric of "x evil deeds per year". However, the mindset of someone who thought that murdering several husbands out of boredom has to be twisted in such a way that they'd be willing, at least, to commit other Evil acts. The CN woman killing her abusive husband probably isn't even committing an Evil act, and the CN woman who kills her cheating husband wouldn't immediately drop to CE. If her standard response to being cheated on is murder, however, she was probably Evil before her first kill.


Well......lets see how can I put this. The company that made that book is viewed as a ''kid company''. That is that they make books and games for kids. And they would say themselves that they only target kids, and don't care about adults. So the end result is a very kid friendly ''rated G'' book.

This is the exact reason not a single innocent civilian in New York City was hurt or killed by the invading aliens in The Avengers.

But if you take the more adult view, you'd know a lot of people in New York died in the alien attack. The same way you can view love as more adult, then what a company publishing things for kids can put in a book.

:smallconfused: You're talking about a company that literally made a race of misandrist dominatrices, a goddess of prostitutes, and a prostitute prestige class devoted to said goddess. (An exalted prostitute, no less.) WotC didn't shy away from depicting jealousy, envy, possessiveness, and all the other uglier sides of romantic obsession any more than they did the positive sides (and Ed Greenwood did so even less); what they did shy away from is saying it's in any way compatible with the CG goddess of Love.

[Bullet06320]

I'm looking for a FR deity a black widow—that is, a woman who kills several lovers—could be devoted to. (If it's relevant, she'd need to be some race likely to seduce a half-elf.) My Realms lore isn't great, so I'm hoping the Plaground can help me. Ideas?

it would depend on why she is killing?
is she an assassin or killing for revenge or because she's a bored noble with a twisted sense of humor?
also the timeline in your realms can make a difference to gods are available
pre times of troubles Bhaal was the god of assassins and murder, post time of troubles Cyric becomes an option
I do like the suggestion of Hoar, depending on why she is killing
it really comes down to motivation, as to what the best fit it
Sune would most likely not work, she is all about the happy go lucky love, and beauty, lust regardless of the rating, killing your lovers is not her thing and probly wouldn't approve

[jedipotter]

Who said "pure evil"? More importantly, who said this is my ethical viewpoint? It isn't. It is the viewpoint of BoVD and BoED, the primary sources on alignment. Murder of a non-undead, non-evil outsider is Evil except in very rare circumstances (specifically, to kill someone who is trying to hurt people).


It is your game. You can decide what good and evil are, or you can go by a couple lines in a single rule book. It is up to you.

Though, remember D&D lets you murder evil people and creatures and still be good.



:smallconfused: You're talking about a company that literally made a race of misandrist dominatrices, a goddess of prostitutes, and a prostitute prestige class devoted to said goddess. (An exalted prostitute, no less.) WotC didn't shy away from depicting jealousy, envy, possessiveness, and all the other uglier sides of romantic obsession any more than they did the positive sides (and Ed Greenwood did so even less); what they did shy away from is saying it's in any way compatible with the CG goddess of Love.

Well...your millage may vary


If your version of Sune is lawful good, then that is just fine. If you want to go that route just pick Shar or Loviatar for a good default black widow goddess. Both are Chaotic Evil, so they can do whatever they want. They can commit one murder every ten years, and ''pretend'' to be lawful good for a decade.....but still be pure chaotic evil. That is the great thing about evil: you can do anything. While if your good, you have to walk on egg shells as tons of actions can make you not good.

Now my version of Sune is more complex then ''she is a pure hearted angel'', but that is just my personal view as I like very complex gods and religions.

Hoar works great if you have a black widow that wants revenge (like ever watch the show: Revenge?)

Malar works great for the typical serial killer type black widow

Mask works just fine for the thief black widow that just wants the money

[Jeff the Green]

It is your game. You can decide what good and evil are, or you can go by a couple lines in a single rule book. It is up to you.

Though, remember D&D lets you murder evil people and creatures and still be good.

Strictly speaking it's up to my DM, actually; this is for a character's backstory. And no, it doesn't, except in those noted special circumstances. You can go around murdering evil people as a vigilante and be non-evil (c.f. Heroes of Horror), but you can't be Good.


If your version of Sune is lawful good, then that is just fine. If you want to go that route just pick Shar or Loviatar for a good default black widow goddess. Both are Chaotic Evil, so they can do whatever they want. They can commit one murder every ten years, and ''pretend'' to be lawful good for a decade.....but still be pure chaotic evil. That is the great thing about evil: you can do anything. While if your good, you have to walk on egg shells as tons of actions can make you not good.

Now my version of Sune is more complex then ''she is a pure hearted angel'', but that is just my personal view as I like very complex gods and religions.

Hoar works great if you have a black widow that wants revenge (like ever watch the show: Revenge?)

Malar works great for the typical serial killer type black widow

Mask works just fine for the thief black widow that just wants the money

Sune is Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good; Chaotic Good does not mean "Mostly Good with a hint of Evil".

(Also, apparently Shar is NE and Loviatar is LE, which surprises me. Nihilists and sadists don't strike me as disciplined enough to not end up as CE.)

And thank you for saying that it's your version of Sune. It's generally a good idea to note that up front in the same way that one should mention houserules/particular interpretations required for a build to work; someone not familiar with Sune (like me with any other deity) might have accepted that as canon and seriously confused a DM.

[jedipotter]

Going 100% by-the-book: Sune is Chaotic Good. Clerics can be ''one step'' away in alignment. One step from Chaotic Good is Chaotic Neutral. So a cleric of Sune can be Chaotic Neutral.

And a chaotic neutral person can kill and comit murder just fine....

[Astralia123]

Talona is certainly for the heartless murderer type. If you have least bit knowledge about real world poisoners, they are almost each selfish, heartless and often anti-social to some extent.

On the other hand, I'm surprised you guys didn't mentions those psychopath type of women. This is the abused wife type, who are generally harmed, abused and/or betrayed by their husband or parents, who often consider her as a burden or obstacle and certainly meant to get rid of her (sometimes they even actively try to murder her).
This kind of women don't have to be evil, at least not from the very beginning. Their first victims, more often than not, deserve what they get. However a paranoid woman with such trauma is dangerous, which lead her to commit murder again and again.
Shar is the goddess for this type of black widow. Note the black widow doesn't have to be evil at the very beginning, but Shar is certainly capable of leading her to the darkest pit of humanity, which indicates that she is more than likely to be evil now.


A CN black widow, or at least a CN women who has killed multiple lovers, might be possible anyway. But she has to be a lot more innocent than the type I described above.

[Astralia123]

Going 100% by-the-book: Sune is Chaotic Good. Clerics can be ''one step'' away in alignment. One step from Chaotic Good is Chaotic Neutral. So a cleric of Sune can be Chaotic Neutral.

And a chaotic neutral person can kill and comit murder just fine....

Well, actually a worshiper does not even has the one-step-away alignment from the deity, as long as she is not a cleric or any kind of the priest type.

There is even a Neutral Good Chosen of Mask somewhere out there, not mentioning those chaotic Chosen of Mystra (who was LN at that time, though curiously she had not chosen an evil spellcaster once).

It is somewhat common for a evil deity to have neutral or even good alignment worshipers. Some enjoy luring good people, some deceive the worshipers to harvest divine power, and some are perhaps just not that evil or does not care the alignment that much.



Sune may be inappropriate, unless your character has been redeemed.
And still for some evil deity, killing may not be their style. They are not necessarily against killing (like Loviatar), on the other hand, plus the character doesn't have to be a priest type.
If she is a lone worker, then all above deity except Sune, Sharess and Lolth may be suitable. If the character really worships a good goddess, she is likely to have felt remorse for her doings and try to redeem for her sins. For Lolth, she cares little for races other than drow, and if you choose her, your character may end up in a more literal Black Widow type :P

[ShurikVch]

Kiaransalee - because REVENGE!

Falazure - to feed her patron god

Any of archfiend cults - because love need sacrifices :nale: :sabine:

Bhaal is still an option - Deathstalkers are still exist

Actually, any non-Good dead power - sacrifices may be useful

[Psyren]

And a chaotic neutral person can kill and comit murder just fine....

Actually, per FC2, "murder for pleasure" is one of the few acts bad enough to make you instantly evil. So no, a CN person cannot do it. At most you could probably do this once, and atonement would be expected even then, but the OP seems to want this to be a habitual character trait.

Also, I agree with Jeff - Sharess and Sune would be pretty strongly against this concept. Lloth, Shar and Loviatar would be all over it though, as would some non-deity figures like Malcanthet.

[Nihilarian]

Going 100% by-the-book: Sune is Chaotic Good. Clerics can be ''one step'' away in alignment. One step from Chaotic Good is Chaotic Neutral. So a cleric of Sune can be Chaotic Neutral.

And a chaotic neutral person can kill and comit murder just fine....Only murdering one man every ten years does not justify a CN murderer. This is not a cupcake when you've been doing well on your diet and you decide to splurge a little. You married the man with the intent of using that marriage to murder him. As far as I'm concerned the marriage is part of the murder, all ten years of it.

You also seem to be working under the assumption that unprovoked murder is not an inherently evil act, that a murderer will not be working uphill in order to not qualify as evil and can instead sit snugly in neutrality without any qualifiers to his or her actions.

I don't share this assumption. I think Sharess and Sune would agree, and be very, very watchful of someone going around murdering lovers in their name. The only way I can see to swing it would be to have all of her targets be people who sinned in the eyes of the goddesses, like abusive brothel customers. Even then, I question the need to marry the men instead of seducing and then killing them immediately when you were alone.

[jedipotter]

Only murdering one man every ten years does not justify a CN murderer. .

Well, you make murder out to be pure evil, so only three alignments can do it. That sets up the type of world where ''the good guys wear white'' and ''the bad guys wear black'' and the paladin can walk down the street everyday, detect evil and kill anyone they get a ping on. It's one way to have a world, but not the way I like.

Though ''murder'' is much more a legal term then a ''term used by cosmic alignment judges''. And when you expand from ''murder'' to ''killing'', well all alignments can kill. Though good people will only kill in self defense, defense of another or good things. But then that good thing is kinda vague and can just go for ''can kill evil any time''. And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?

[Nihilarian]

Well, you make murder out to be pure evil, so only three alignments can do it. That sets up the type of world where ''the good guys wear white'' and ''the bad guys wear black'' and the paladin can walk down the street everyday, detect evil and kill anyone they get a ping on. It's one way to have a world, but not the way I like.

Though ''murder'' is much more a legal term then a ''term used by cosmic alignment judges''. And when you expand from ''murder'' to ''killing'', well all alignments can kill. Though good people will only kill in self defense, defense of another or good things. But then that good thing is kinda vague and can just go for ''can kill evil any time''. And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?I make unprovoked, premeditated murder out to be evil. Like, for example, the black widow who kills once every 10 years for no reason other than that she wants to kill someone. This sounds evil to me, dunno about anyone else.

[Sartharina]

Well, you make murder out to be pure evil, so only three alignments can do it. That sets up the type of world where ''the good guys wear white'' and ''the bad guys wear black'' and the paladin can walk down the street everyday, detect evil and kill anyone they get a ping on. It's one way to have a world, but not the way I like.

Though ''murder'' is much more a legal term then a ''term used by cosmic alignment judges''. And when you expand from ''murder'' to ''killing'', well all alignments can kill. Though good people will only kill in self defense, defense of another or good things. But then that good thing is kinda vague and can just go for ''can kill evil any time''. And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?There are lesser evils than murder, and a Paladin that kills anyone who detects as Evil is guilty of murder if Evil is not so strong as to mean "This person has killed or harmed people to count as killing at least one person unprovoked".

The closest to 'murdering' Chaotic Neutral tends to get is 'trigger-happy' - quick to resort to excessive violence on emotional impulse when provoked - but they still need to be provoked first.

Sune is the goddess of Disney Love. There are other deities for jealous/wicked loves.

[jedipotter]

Sune is the goddess of Disney Love. There are other deities for jealous/wicked loves.

How do you explain a CN cleric of Sune though? She won't have the Disney Love idea, but will still be 100% accepted by Sune.

[Sartharina]

How do you explain a CN cleric of Sune though? She won't have the Disney Love idea, but will still be 100% accepted by Sune.Yeah she would. But everyone would be telling her "You can't just marry someone the first day you meet them!" She'd probably promote head-over-heels falling-in-love-at-first-sight over ensuring that the love is sustainable.

Maybe I'll make one for one of the games you're running here.

[Psyren]

How do you explain a CN cleric of Sune though? She won't have the Disney Love idea, but will still be 100% accepted by Sune.

CE would not be, however, and that's exactly the alignment a black widow-style spouse serial killer would end up with very quickly.

[hamishspence]

And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?

Depends on how much "in self-defence" the adventurer's killings are, and on if they've actually been sent there by the locals in order to stop an ongoing threat to them.

Local ruler has bandit problem - only the bandits are lurking underground - local ruler hires adventurers to deal with bandits - killing those who won't surrender, and dragging those who do back for trial.

"Bandits lurking underground" is a pretty fair summary of a dungeon's inhabitants - though not every being you encounter in a dungeon will be a de facto bandit. Hence an element of caution should be used - waiting for a hostile response - talking to those that don't respond with hostility in case they are fellow travellers, captured innocents, and so forth.

[The Insanity]

Depends on the "black widow". We need more information. For example, why does she kill?

[hamishspence]

"Profit" seems to be the default reason:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackWidow

[sktarq]

Thinking of a way to get a Sune worshipping black widow led me to to the idea of an an idealist. Someone totally dedicated to some romantic pure ideal of love and she want that with all her heart and dedicates her life to the idea. Especially pair bond love. However while she can delude herself that it is working this time eventually her husband does something that conflicts with her idea of how her should act in a total love bonded way (goes out for too many beers with the guys, forgets her mother's birthday, can't remember what she wore the day they met - whatever) and feels she must punish this betrayal of her and her ever giving love by killing the man who has broken her heart so cruelly.
It is more than a bit of a sexist stereotype and must be used carefully-but it may well work.

[hamishspence]

Someone totally dedicated to some romantic pure ideal of love and she want that with all her heart and dedicates her life to the idea. Especially pair bond love. However while she can delude herself that it is working this time eventually her husband does something that conflicts with her idea of how her should act in a total love bonded way (goes out for too many beers with the guys, forgets her mother's birthday, can't remember what she wore the day they met - whatever) and feels she must punish this betrayal of her and her ever giving love by killing the man who has broken her heart so cruelly.
Debbie in Addams Family Values claims to be this, in her motive rant.

[Frozen_Feet]

There is exactly one option:

Lolth.

She's the goddess of Black Widows in the literal and metaphorical senses. For race, I suggest Drow, maybe using shape-changing magic to disguise as a normal Elf. This is, like, their basic modus operandi. You can't have a better fit.

[A Tad Insane]

Ok, Jp, if a CN person can kill their lover because they're bored, what does a CG or CE person do?

[Madhava]

Shar, Shar, Shar, a thousand times Shar.

I am assuming that by 'black widow', you mean a man-killing murderess, & not anything pertaining to an actual spider.

I am also assuming she is motivated by some great tragedy, loss, or wrongdoing... which resulted in bitterness, comtempt, & a healthy lust for vengeance against the male gender. If this comes close to your vision, then definitely Shar.

If she is pathologically insane, & suffers from some detachment disorder (moreso than your typical everyday murderess :smalltongue:), then Cyric.

If she is an assassin for hire, then either Bhaal or Cyric (hingent upon your timeline). Or possibly Talona.

If she is taking the law into her own hands, & seeking to avenge victims of legitimate wrongdoings, then Hoar.

[hamishspence]

Though it would depend why she was a Black Widow. Sune works for a woman who lost her love of a life time, so she now ''kills love''.

Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?

If Hate is the opposite of love - they could be a worshipper of Bane, who sees murdering one's spouse as the ultimate expression of hatred.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?

Indeed. Sune would very much take the opposite view, that you should not despair because it is possible to love again. Or to devote yourself to encouraging the love of those around you, in hopes that you will be reunited with your true love in Brightwater.

[enderlord99]

Lolth, obviously.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd lean to Mask. Money makes the world go round, after all.

Or hell, do something odd and make it Bane. She could be a Zhentarim agent who uses her beauty to advance the power of Bane, bringing forth the heralded day when he will take his rightful place as lord of all of Faerun. They've been depicted as manipulating nobility and planting spies before, so it isn't a huge stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if someone less lazy could even find a similar instance in the lore.

And if I recall correctly, in 3rd edition Bane is a very racially tolerant deity provided that they bow down and submit to him. So the half-elf thing isn't a problem. And if I'm wrong, well, she's trying to kill him.

[ShurikVch]

Most of undead-related deities.
1) Predatory instincts
2) Undead may pretend to be alive, and kill those who learned it's secret

[Werephilosopher]

There is exactly one option:

Lolth.

She's the goddess of Black Widows in the literal and metaphorical senses. For race, I suggest Drow, maybe using shape-changing magic to disguise as a normal Elf. This is, like, their basic modus operandi. You can't have a better fit.

This is a good option.

If you go with Malcanthet, though, you can become a Thrall of Malcanthet (Dragon 353) which is another good one.

[sktarq]

Or hell, do something odd and make it Bane. She could be a Zhentarim agent who uses her beauty to advance the power of Bane, bringing forth the heralded day when he will take his rightful place as lord of all of Faerun. They've been depicted as manipulating nobility and planting spies before, so it isn't a huge stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if someone less lazy could even find a similar instance in the lore.

Or even uses her marriages (and subsequent widow's claim to the husband wealth and station and basically the laws of inheritance) to collect power more than money. That would be more Bane than Mask.

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I am more of a Graz'zt fan. Could be personal bias, I admit. Double bonus because he's specifically mentioned in the Realms. Could also have her targeting wealthy Waukeenites...

[jedipotter]

Ok, Jp, if a CN person can kill their lover because they're bored, what does a CG or CE person do?

Well, a CG person does not kill their lover if they are bored.....they just leave.

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.


CE would not be, however, and that's exactly the alignment a black widow-style spouse serial killer would end up with very quickly.

I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.

I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?


Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?


Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

[Sartharina]

Well, a CG person does not kill their lover if they are bored.....they just leave.

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.



I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.You conflate law and good. Inflicting suffering is Evil - for example, stealing a family heirloom of powerful sentimental value just to inflict pain and misery is Evil, as is stealing enough wealth to impoverish someone. Of course, things change when the person deserves it - again, "What would Axe Cop do?"


I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?There's one "Good" guideline for when it's okay to kill someone: "Are they someone that deserves to be killed?". Even CN doesn't resort to unprovoked murder, but does tend to respond to provocation with lethal force where a Good person wouldn't, such as committing crimes of passion. If you're a CG murderhobo, the question is "What would Axe Cop do?". If you're a CN murderhobo, you ask "What would Conan do?" Turning a trial into a massacre is a CN thing to do (You're killing to preserve your own life from those who wish to take it from you). Going up and just randomly stabbing someone for shiggles is CE.



Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.No, it's not. There's a lot CN does, but murdering one's spouse violates the very spirit of Sune. She's chaotic herself, so has no qualms against following the 'rules' about what she's can and can't do to someone who violates her will. Also - while a Cleric may be one step away from her deity, she must still follow the Deity's tenets, beliefs, and code of conduct, which transcend alignment.

[Nihilarian]

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.This is also how you define Chaotic Neutral characters.
I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.

I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?No one has said that a Chaotic Neutral character can't kill someone. But repeatedly killing your spouses for no reason except that you want to is Chaotic Evil.
Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.Only if you believe that you have to be a murderer in order to play a Chaotic Neutral character.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

Jesus, I don't know much about the realms, but I know that's not true. Such a worshipper would be one of the False. It's not quite as bad as not having a god at all, but her fate would be up to Kelemvor and he's not exactly forgiving or merciful.

[Sartharina]

Jesus, I don't know much about the realms, but I know that's not true. Such a worshipper would be one of the False. It's not quite as bad as not having a god at all, but her fate would be up to Kelemvor and he's not exactly forgiving or merciful.Actually - I think being False is worse than not having a god at all. If you don't have a god at all, if your actions in life impress one enough they might claim you anyway (And, you're likely going to appreciate them anyway if you're Not Evil. And if you are evil, you deserve it).

And while Kelemvor isn't merciful and forgiving, he is absolutely and always fair. I'd say he's the most fair deity in all of the Realms. You get exactly what you deserve if you go to him (Sure, there's a bit about him getting rid of the 'shining city of the dead' - but that's because he WASN'T being fair at the time, and trying to add extra reward/punishment for arbitrary and subjective things. Instead, he started putting people together who deserved each other.)

[jedipotter]

You conflate law and good. Inflicting suffering is Evil - for example, stealing a family heirloom of powerful sentimental value just to inflict pain and misery is Evil, as is stealing enough wealth to impoverish someone. Of course, things change when the person deserves it - again, "What would Axe Cop do?"

But who gets to decide who ''deserves'' something?

And ok, it is evil to steal an item just to inflict pain and misery.....but it is still evil to steal just out of greed. Right? But then the king can confiscate(aka steal) the item ''for the good of the kingdom'' and that is a good act. Same way it is evil to steal with a lockpick at night, but take the person to court and you can take (aka steal) everything they own.



There's one "Good" guideline for when it's okay to kill someone: "Are they someone that deserves to be killed?". Even CN doesn't resort to unprovoked murder, but does tend to respond to provocation with lethal force where a Good person wouldn't, such as committing crimes of passion. If you're a CG murderhobo, the question is "What would Axe Cop do?". If you're a CN murderhobo, you ask "What would Conan do?" Turning a trial into a massacre is a CN thing to do (You're killing to preserve your own life from those who wish to take it from you). Going up and just randomly stabbing someone for shiggles is CE.

So are you saying someone who commits crimes of passion does not automatically have to be evil. They might be other alignments?



No, it's not. There's a lot CN does, but murdering one's spouse violates the very spirit of Sune. She's chaotic herself, so has no qualms against following the 'rules' about what she's can and can't do to someone who violates her will. Also - while a Cleric may be one step away from her deity, she must still follow the Deity's tenets, beliefs, and code of conduct, which transcend alignment.

Well, Sune sure is not listed as caring about spouses or marriage. She is just the goddess of Love and Beauty. It would seem she would not care about marriage. CG people don't get married...they just live together.

How do those things transcend alignment? That goes to say ''you must be the alignment of your deity''. Except the rules let you go one step. So you can't violate anything, you are allowed to be ''one step'' away. And Sune does not have a ''thou shall not kill'' rule....

[Sartharina]

But who gets to decide who ''deserves'' something?Cosmic Evil. Or more specifically, anyone whom Cosmic Evil considers an Ally.


And ok, it is evil to steal an item just to inflict pain and misery.....but it is still evil to steal just out of greed. Right? But then the king can confiscate(aka steal) the item ''for the good of the kingdom'' and that is a good act. Same way it is evil to steal with a lockpick at night, but take the person to court and you can take (aka steal) everything they own.You are conflating Law and Good. Stealing out of greed is usually evil because it's putting your wants far above another's needs, and can be catastrophic. Normally, it's a Neutral, not fully Evil, act, though. It's not evil to steal at night with a lockpick to, say, steal the Royal Family's Jewels - they can take the loss. It's not good, either. It's Good to steal the Big Bad's evil Macguffin/Artifact of Doom at night with a lockpick, though, or to reclaim the thousands of monies an evil sheriff has bled from the villagers and return it to them. It's likewise Evil to use the law to arrest an innocent (as in non-Evil) man on false or irrelevant pretenses and use the arrest as grounds to rob them of everything of value that they own.


So are you saying someone who commits crimes of passion does not automatically have to be evil. They might be other alignments?If it's a crime of passion, no, they don't have to be evil. But someone (Such as a Black Widow) who manipulates and engages in premeditated evil acts is not committing crimes of passion, and is Evil. A CN follower of Sune might stab someone for breaking a priceless, beautiful vase, or driving a combine over a beautiful meadow. Or calling her ugly. Or being ugly and mocking something beautiful.


Well, Sune sure is not listed as caring about spouses or marriage. She is just the goddess of Love and Beauty. It would seem she would not care about marriage. CG people don't get married...they just live together.Maybe I should have used mate instead of spouse.


How do those things transcend alignment? That goes to say ''you must be the alignment of your deity''. Except the rules let you go one step. So you can't violate anything, you are allowed to be ''one step'' away. And Sune does not have a ''thou shall not kill'' rule....You can be one step away. But you must still adhere to the tenets of your faith. I think I'll play a CN follower of Sune in one of your PbP games here. But character creation's always a pain.

[Jeff the Green]

CG people don't get married...they just live together.

:smallconfused: I would think that Sune would be the patron of all the Elvises and drive-thru chapels.

[Sartharina]

Sune likes marriages because of the fabulous shows and pretty costumes that accompany them. She may or may not care if they last (And if they don't last, but end amicably enough - that just means everyone can have MORE fabulous displays and pretty costumes and flowers all over the place!). She likes weddings, and the eternal love that marriage signifies. She's probably not so hot on 'business marriages' or trying to preserve a loveless marriage (But she's all for repairing and restoring and rekindling broken/lost loves)

[jedipotter]

:smallconfused: I would think that Sune would be the patron of all the Elvises and drive-thru chapels.

Well....I'm sure Sune would be more ''communal Hippies'' then anything else. They would make perfect ''flower children'' and all.

[Honest Tiefling]

I thought she was the patron of half-elves, given how they are often made...

[Sartharina]

Well....I'm sure Sune would be more ''communal Hippies'' then anything else. They would make perfect ''flower children'' and all.Actually - she's for both the extravagant lifelong-commitment marriages+weddings AND the quieter, flower-child hippy free love.

She is NOT they type to say that either forms of love are 'doing it wrong'.

... in fact, people favoring one over the other might be where the NG/CN clerics might fall in Sune's domain - some clerics preaching fast-burning, short-lived free love that inadvertently causes broken families, single parents, jilted lovers/etc, or converses of that, and NG clerics believing it's better to endure suffering from strained love to hold out for rekindling of the fire of passion and providing greater stability and charity for children (While the CN ones don't want to get shackled with that kind of responsibility)


I thought she was the patron of half-elves, given how they are often made...She's the patron of ALL lovingly-made children.

[Astralia123]

Thinking of a way to get a Sune worshipping black widow led me to to the idea of an an idealist. Someone totally dedicated to some romantic pure ideal of love and she want that with all her heart and dedicates her life to the idea. Especially pair bond love. However while she can delude herself that it is working this time eventually her husband does something that conflicts with her idea of how her should act in a total love bonded way (goes out for too many beers with the guys, forgets her mother's birthday, can't remember what she wore the day they met - whatever) and feels she must punish this betrayal of her and her ever giving love by killing the man who has broken her heart so cruelly.
It is more than a bit of a sexist stereotype and must be used carefully-but it may well work.

It is, however, the type I referred to before, as the "psychopath" type.
How are you expecting one that kills her lover, at least, for minor offense, to be with admirable sanity? And a psychopath that treats murdering as acceptable is still more than likely to be evil, and thus unlikely to be accepted by the goddess.
(It is possible that one prays to a certain deity under his twisted misunderstandings, though.)



Well, you make murder out to be pure evil, so only three alignments can do it. That sets up the type of world where ''the good guys wear white'' and ''the bad guys wear black'' and the paladin can walk down the street everyday, detect evil and kill anyone they get a ping on. It's one way to have a world, but not the way I like.

Though ''murder'' is much more a legal term then a ''term used by cosmic alignment judges''. And when you expand from ''murder'' to ''killing'', well all alignments can kill. Though good people will only kill in self defense, defense of another or good things. But then that good thing is kinda vague and can just go for ''can kill evil any time''. And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?

I must add, even when a CN character's moral code allows killing, she may fall into the category of evil if she just thinks murdering an acceptable thing.
I agree with you on that, murdering in D&D is not automatically an evil act, or you can say it is not predetermined to be evil. But you are making it too far.
One that murders for reasons (least revenging or punishing for the most heartless wrongdoings) is more than likely to be evil. One that kills with somewhat justifiable reasons but shows too much cruelty in the process, are likely to fall into the category of evil as well. It is totally possible for a woman that murders but still dancing at the edge of evil and neutral, but you have to make it a lot more believable by justifying it or "offsetting" her evil doings.
A cruel bandit that murders the rich (who can rightly be considered sinful for their corruption, as a justification for her) but is kind to poor, can sometimes considered CN or CG sometimes. You know I'm referring to Robbin hood. But even when a CG character could have a somewhat cruel or vicious nature, a story that describes her to be acceptably good-alignment would not provide her a lot opportunities to actually commit murder, not at least those most cruel type of murder. A Robbinhood-typed protagonist may kill a sinful lord in a duel, and may even actively inflict pain when he kills the villain and still be justifiably righteous. But a reader that thinks him as good-alignmented would not expect to see him to kill the villain's wife, daughter and steward in the same way, right?

If you know what I mean, it is vastly different thing 1) to morally accept murdering, 2) to commit murdering just once under justifiable circumstances, 3) to commit murdering in a particularly cruel manner, and 4) to commit murdering numerous times and/or without a slightest bit of repentance.

Let me repeat once again, you have to make a lot of justifications to make a CN Black Widow believable. However in this case, very little space is allowed for justifications. The Black Widow kills man for a numerous times, and she is likely to commit it again in the future.
Even for the Robbinhood type, the seduce-and-kill thing is too much to be justified, and it would be even worse for the marry-and-kill type. If we are going to treat the Book of Exalted Deeds seriously, then we may agree that ends do not justify means, not mentioning the unlikeness that a Black Widow murders for selfless and/or righteous courses.

[Psyren]

I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things.

That's dandy, but it's not at all what I said. Rather, what I said was - it is not possible to routinely do (very) bad things and remain non-evil.

And that is the crux of the issue with a "Black Widow" archetype - they make a habit of it. The OP certainly plans to. Thus whatever justification you could use to remain neutral will fly out the window quickly.

By RAW, "murder for pleasure" is a 7-point corrupt act. Just once is a strong signal to a DM to change your alignment, while twice means you are destined for a lower plane unless you atone.

[hamishspence]

That's dandy, but it's not at all what I said. Rather, what I said was - it is not possible to routinely do (very) bad things and remain non-evil.


Which is almost word for word what Champions of Ruin says about evil acts - neutral and even Good characters might be "driven to them" - but repeatedly doing them tends to be the mark of an Evil character.

[Judge_Worm]

A Half-Drow worshipper of Lolth?

[hamishspence]

In Dambrath, there are plenty of half-elves of the ordinary type, that worship Lolth.

[Svata]

Ok, so your view is very black and white. That is fine. You'd say a woman who kills her husband, lets say once every ten years or so, is a evil person.

Yes, and it worries me you wouldn't.


So one ''accident murder'' every decade makes her evil, even if she does no other evil acts for the whole other time.

But it wasn't accidental. And unless she spent the rest of the time saving orphans, then yeah, probably.



Though your not just saying ''killing anyone for any reason'' is evil right? So a CN woman could kill her abusive husband and not be ''pure evil'', right?

If the abuse was sufficient, and there was no other way to stop it, or it was done in the heat of the moment (i.e. not premeditated), or in self-defense, then an LG woman could, and not take an alignment hit. At all.

[A Tad Insane]

And ok, it is evil to steal an item just to inflict pain and misery.....but it is still evil to steal just out of greed. Right? But then the king can confiscate(aka steal) the item ''for the good of the kingdom'' and that is a good act.

Have you ever seen Disney's "Robin Hood" (I'm using Disney's version to avoid the might have been real historical Robin Hood)? Cute animated movie, I loved it as a kid. In it, there's a king, and the king has a sheriff, whom collects taxes from the peasants. He's doing it "for the good of the kingdom", but the peasants would have to choose between paying taxes or eating, if the sheriff actually gave them a chose, which he doesn't because he just takes the tax money. Now, Robin Hood routinely ambushes the sheriff, take the tax money, and returns it to the peasants so they can buy food. Is Robin Hood breaking the law? Yes. Is the sheriff taking money "for the good of the kingdom" out of greed? Yes. Is the sheriff good, or even neutral? It's a Disney movie about the guy fighting the sheriff.