How should we change the Ranger [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys.
First off, I promise I'll get to the point once I finish this rant, because it is important as it shows what I want to do:

So, I am in love with the concept of the ranger, but I find that it is always so poorly executed. Invariably, it's always: you get archery or TWF, and a weird boost against certain enemies or just a flat d6 (4e)

I want to change that, to break that. Give them the option to TWF, or to use a bow, but don't force them into that. I want to make a warrior who is in tune with the wild, is adept at stealth and can fight like a cornered animal. I want something that doesn't have a situational bonus against one thing. I don't want to always have to have the vengeance backstory, or at least feel it pushed super hard at me.

A few things I want to see from the ranger:

I want to see favored enemy dropped. It doesn't need to be there, and it feels like it always has it's stuff built around it (hell, it makes TWF viable, who doesn't love +70 damage if everything lands)

I want to see a greater emphasis on stealth, other than it's a class skill and it has two mediocre features to support it (ok Hide in Plain Site is awesome but still, comes too late)

I want it to not be a virtually strictly worse fighter when the fight breaks out (ok, not STRICTLY, but near enough), the fighter should still win mono a' mono, in a corridor, both full attacking the other into oblivion, but the ranger should have awesome stuff that the fighter doesn't (and vise versa)

I want to see it drop the pushed class features. Favored enemy just doesn't seem right as a main class feature, maybe if it was an option at higher levels as a secondary feature, but not as the main chasis, it's just not as cool as rage, it's not as good as rage, we need something like that for a main feature, or just a bunch of sweet smaller stuff. And it needs to straight up drop combat styles, they force the player into something they may not want. Maybe offer up fighter bonus feats instead.

-------------------

There is the rant. So now the point. What ideas do you guys have to change the ranger so it more fits the ideas that I put up above? It is my opinion that that is what the ranger should be, a ferocious badass who can survive in the wilds, rip his opponents to shreds, quietly sink his dagger into his foes neck, and so much more. Sure it can do it already, but it needs to legitimately have class features around it, instead of just "oh I'm kinda sneaky, I guess that means a surprise round" and "oh I have a full base attack bonus, time to full attack" "oh I have survival, time to track"

Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[nonsi]

.
Why not just make the ranger a Fighter variant with...........
- Whirling Frenzy (fights like a cornered animal... goes well with Diehard)
- More class skills and skill points. Use the core Ranger's list and add Balance & Tumble (e.g. Legolas)
- Trap handling
- Tracking
- HiPS at a much earlier level.
- Evasion, the Scout's Flawless Stride and the Swashbuckler's Acrobatic Charge all seem appropriate as well.
- For a finishing touch, give it Wild Cohort as bonus feat (or feature, if you ban it as a feat)

You could also replace Favored Enemy with Defender of the Wild, where all "Enemies of the Wild"* count as favored enemy and the same bonus applies to all of them.
* Enemies of the Wild: aberrations, oozes, constructs, undead, outsiders and creatures with an innate power to petrify.


This seems to me like enough to work with.

[Teapot Salty]

.
Why not just make the ranger a Fighter variant with...........
- Whirling Frenzy (fights like a cornered animal... goes well with Diehard)
- More class skills and skill points. Use the core Ranger's list and add Balance & Tumble (e.g. Legolas)
- Trap handling
- Tracking
- HiPS at a much earlier level.
- Evasion, the Scout's Flawless Stride and the Swashbuckler's Acrobatic Charge all seem appropriate as well.
- For a finishing touch, give it Wild Cohort as bonus feat (or feature, if you ban it as a feat)

You could also replace Favored Enemy with Defender of the Wild, where all "Enemies of the Wild"* count as favored enemy and the same bonus applies to all of them.
* Enemies of the Wild: aberrations, oozes, constructs, undead, outsiders and creatures with an innate power to petrify.


This seems to me like enough to work with.

Good start!
But how would we incorporate WF, since it lacks rage?

[Admiral Squish]

I would direct you to the Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351446-Hunter-Base-Class-Crossroads) class I made for my Crossroads setting. Some of the fluff doesn't work for the traditional D&D setting, but it accomplishes many of the things you mention.
I still need to work on that trap section a bit...

[nonsi]

Good start!
But how would we incorporate WF, since it lacks rage?

So give it Rage mechanics, just make it WF.
You don't necessarily have to start at level 1 and you can skip Greater Rage and Mighty Rage (it's the extra attack and the AC & Ref bonuses that count for the theme you're after).

Also, I forgot to mention Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge, which are also appropriate.


Admiral Squish's suggested Hunter is indeed a solid class.
If I were to take it, I'd probably shuffle the position of some of the features and add Acrobatic Charge and Diehard, but other than that, it's good.
Just to go easy on the eyes, I'd put Tactics in a separate column.

[Admiral Squish]

Admiral Squish's suggested Hunter is indeed a solid class.
If I were to take it, I'd probably shuffle the position of some of the features and add Acrobatic Charge and Diehard, but other than that, it's good.
Just to go easy on the eyes, I'd put Tactics in a separate column.

I would love to hear exactly what you would change, but I do believe it would be off-topic for this thread. I'd be happy to hear from you in a PM or in the hunter thread.

[nonsi]

I would love to hear exactly what you would change, but I do believe it would be off-topic for this thread. I'd be happy to hear from you in a PM or in the hunter thread.

Actually, I'm all for sharing with the OP.




LevelBABFortRefWillSpecialTacticsFast Movement

1st+1+2+2+0Track, Trapfinding
1
2nd+3+3+3+1 Uncanny Dodge, Endurance
3rd+3+3+3+1 Trackless Step, Whirling Frenzy
2
+5'
4th+4+4+4+1Bonus Feat, Wild Cohort
5th+5+4+4+1Evasion, Diehard
3
6th+6+5+5+2 Swift Tracker
+10'
7th+7+5+5+2 Imp. Uncanny Dodge
4
8th+8+6+6+2Bonus Feat
9th+9+6+6+3 Flawless Stride
5
+15'
10th+10+7+7+3 Camouflage
11th+11+7+7+3 Blindsense 30'
6
12th+12+8+8+4Bonus Feat
+20'
13th+13+8+8+4 Hide in Plain Sight
7
14th+14+9+9+4 Tireless Frenzy
15th+15+9+9+5Improved Evasion
8
+25'
16th+16+10+10+5Bonus Feat
17th+17+10+10+5 Impetuous Endurance
9
18th+18+11+11+6Free Movement
+30'
19th+19+11+11+6 Blindsight 30'
10
20th+20+12+12+6 Bonus Feat




This is where I'd take your Hunter.
(too tired to come up with an appropriate capstone ATM)

[Extra Anchovies]

I would love to hear exactly what you would change, but I do believe it would be off-topic for this thread. I'd be happy to hear from you in a PM or in the hunter thread.

Of note is the fact that it's been more than 45 days since the last post in your Hunter thread, meaning only you can post in it without getting it locked for necromancy (if I read the rules right, that is). I also second making a separate Tactics column.

As a semi-aside, I took a look at the Hunter class and I love it. It's basically a catchall class for someone who wants to fight well and wants to use a combat style that's normally shoved to average-bab characters (e.g. sneak attack, skirmish).

[toapat]

I want to see favored enemy dropped. It doesn't need to be there, and it feels like it always has it's stuff built around it (hell, it makes TWF viable, who doesn't love +70 damage if everything lands)

I want to see it drop the pushed class features. Favored enemy just doesn't seem right as a main class feature, maybe if it was an option at higher levels as a secondary feature, but not as the main chasis, it's just not as cool as rage, it's not as good as rage, we need something like that for a main feature, or just a bunch of sweet smaller stuff. And it needs to straight up drop combat styles, they force the player into something they may not want. Maybe offer up fighter bonus feats instead.

Favored Enemy is one of 2 possible problems: Either its cripplingly specialized (standard problem where you end up with only 1 relevant and 4 worthless one), or it doesnt function as intended and could be replaced with a Hunter's Mark type benefit.

Otherwise the ranger isnt supposed to be the most badass character in the game. they are supposed to be like the bard or Factotum (Note, how utterly wrong WotC was about Bard/Factotum's balance). A class that is there for everything but is never the best at it. However, I also feel like you latched onto rangers getting Diehard in the wrong way. Rangers are not supposed to be the class that refuses to die no matter what (thats the barbarian and Dwarven Defender), they are definitely supposed to take a punch to the face better then the rogue but thats because the rogue is the glass cannon assassin, ranger is a survivalist.

[Admiral Squish]

Actually, I'm all for sharing with the OP.




LevelBABFortRefWillSpecialTacticsFast Movement

1st+1+2+2+0Track, Trapfinding
1
2nd+3+3+3+1 Uncanny Dodge, Endurance
3rd+3+3+3+1 Trackless Step, Whirling Frenzy
2
+5'
4th+4+4+4+1Bonus Feat, Wild Cohort
5th+5+4+4+1Evasion, Diehard
3
6th+6+5+5+2 Swift Tracker
+10'
7th+7+5+5+2 Imp. Uncanny Dodge
4
8th+8+6+6+2Bonus Feat
9th+9+6+6+3 Flawless Stride
5
+15'
10th+10+7+7+3 Camouflage
11th+11+7+7+3 Blindsense 30'
6
12th+12+8+8+4Bonus Feat
+20'
13th+13+8+8+4 Hide in Plain Sight
7
14th+14+9+9+4 Tireless Frenzy
15th+15+9+9+5Improved Evasion
8
+25'
16th+16+10+10+5Bonus Feat
17th+17+10+10+5 Impetuous Endurance
9
18th+18+11+11+6Free Movement
+30'
19th+19+11+11+6 Blindsight 30'
10
20th+20+12+12+6 Bonus Feat



This is where I'd take your Hunter.
(too tired to come up with an appropriate capstone ATM)

Fancy! A few issues, however.

Wild cohort is unnecessary, see the beastmaster tactic.
I could add a whirling frenzy tactic, certainly, but I would not put it in the class itself, as it's not an inherent part of hunters as a whole.
I feel as though endurance and diehard could certainly have a place, but we could probably accomplish a bit more versatility by stepping up the progression of the bonus feats and ensuring those two are on the list.
I've actually just updated the table according to your other suggestions (though I had to put the fast movement back into the progression to fill up some dead levels), and am gonna bump the thread so people can comment.

[Teapot Salty]

Honestly, my only beef with the hunter is it's lack of using a mental highly, and that's just a personal thing. And I think I'll brew something for it:

Starting at second level, a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier you may enter a more focused state, you remain in this state for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier. While in this state you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus on a full attack, but all attacks you make during that round take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

At 7th level you may substitute any action for any non full-round action. For example a hunter may sacrifice their standard action for another move action.

At 12th level, while in the focused state, at the end of your first turn every round, you may take an extra turn after that one.

At 17th level, while in the focused state, you automatically succeed skill checks.

[toapat]

Honestly, my only beef with the hunter is it's lack of using a mental highly, and that's just a personal thing. And I think I'll brew something for it:

Starting at second level, a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier you may enter a more focused state, you remain in this state for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier. While in this state you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus on a full attack, but all attacks you make during that round take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

At 7th level you may substitute any action for any non full-round action. For example a hunter may sacrifice their standard action for another move action.

At 12th level, while in the focused state, at the end of your first turn every round, you may take an extra turn after that one.

At 17th level, while in the focused state, you automatically secede skill checks.

1: That hunter is balanced against the fact that it will need Str, Dex, and Con. It doesnt need a 4th attribute to push it into Definite MAD. Remember, The magic number is needing 3 Attributes to keep buffed,

2: the 7th Level ability is either overpowered or worthless, if the Move action can be turned into a standard. or Swift into Move/Standard or the reverse.

3: the 17th level ability causes you to auto fail skillchecks

[nonsi]

At 12th level, while in the focused state, at the end of your first turn every round, you may take an extra turn after that one.


What does "the end of your first turn every round" mean ?

[toapat]

What does "the end of your first turn every round" mean ?

Im so used to Magic the Gathering logic that i didnt even realize that isnt a functional rule in DnD. Its intended to be "If during the innitive Order, this is your first turn, you may take a second turn on the subsequent initiative count with all actions restored".

However, his ability isnt written correctly in a technical sense nor are the rules of turn order