A race? It's a race! I hope I win!

[littlebum2002]

Right now, IMHO, we seem a bit confused as to who the main antagonists are. Xykon? The Dark one? The IIFC? The Snarl? I, for one, am at the edge of my seat.

Now, lately I have been on the "Xkyon is just a distraction" bench. It seems more and more likely that, barring the Blood Oath, Xykon just really isn't that important to the "health" of the world, especially considering we (think) we know that his controlling-the-snarl plan is doomed to failure.

But in regards to the actual "race to the gate", the OOTS doesn't have a chance. Every other gate there's been some plot-induced snafu which kept the antagonists from getting to, or activating, the gate before our heroes got there. But now they know EXACTLY where it is, teleported straight there, and are gonna have weeks of rocking & rolling before the heroes even show up!

I mean, even if the dungeon is big enough for an epic sorcerer and a near epic Cleric to take WEEKS to clear it out, they should already be at the gate, if not getting there shortly.

Are we possibly going to see a cutscene soon?

[Keltest]

Frankly, by himself, Xykon is not that big of a threat to anyone outside of his immediate vicinity, wherever that happens to be. However since Redcloak cant perform the ritual without him, and he is most definitely the one in charge when he asserts his authority, whatever Redcloak may want to believe, he is definitely the biggest of the Order's villains. Furthermore, as far as the Order knows Xykon is the one with the plan for the Snarl, and Redcloak is just a lackey, and thus barely a villain at all.

[Zaclock]

The Giant has shown numerous times so far that he masters the basic rules of "what not to do in storytelling". One of these rules says that if you spend most of the story focusing on one main antagonist, you cannot change it at the last minute (although you can try inserting doubts in readers' minds about this main antagonist being the main antagonist). The reason is simple: it is simply mean to the reader to create expectations that you have no intention to fulfill.

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon. Simply because I know The Giant is a fine storyteller. How we will get there, including how Xykon will win over all the other antagonists, is the point of it all.

By the way, the Snarl and the IIFC being antagonists isn't obvious. The Order might be able to deal with the gate situation without having to face or defeat them.

[brian 333]

The Giant has shown numerous times so far that he masters the basic rules of "what not to do in storytelling". One of these rules says that if you spend most of the story focusing on one main antagonist, you cannot change it at the last minute (although you can try inserting doubts in readers' minds about this main antagonist being the main antagonist). The reason is simple: it is simply mean to the reader to create expectations that you have no intention to fulfill.

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon. Simply because I know The Giant is a fine storyteller. How we will get there, including how Xykon will win over all the other antagonists, is the point of it all.

By the way, the Snarl and the IIFC being antagonists isn't obvious. The Order might be able to deal with the gate situation without having to face or defeat them.

I like this theory, except that this is the Age of the Twist. Xykon may eventually realize his plan is flawed, and that the only thing he can accomplish by trying to control the Snarl is his own unraveling. At that point Xykon will have become an accidental guide getting the OotS in the right place at the right time. "What a twist!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LGu1sOvxYs)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Xykon probably isn't the biggest threat, but he is definitely the most immediate one. The IFCC has it been directly encountered by Vaarsuvius, the Order isn't certain of the existence of the Snarl, and they don't know who the Dark One is. Things do look very close, though. I am also hoping for a cutscene.

[Darth Paul]

I for one expect Jerkon to use the showdown between the Order and Xykon to try to throw things in favor of Hel. The IFCC, for all their planning, won't see it coming. (We might see Sabine coming in as a surprise guest wild card, though: who knows what side she might take in the aftermath of Nale's death; we have seen her aid Vaarsuvius once but that might not last).

[mouser9169]

On two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), separate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) occasions the story has implied there are multiple sides to this conflict besides Roy vs. Xykon. The IFCC, Redcloak & The Dark One, now Hel, maybe even one or two more we don't know about (you could count Shojo in there while he was alive).

This is building up to a crescendo: Hel, Team Evil, Belkar's Imminent Demise, IFCC, The Snarl are all looming overhead. I expect a flurry of activity once the ball really starts rolling again. Think of this as the calm before the storm.

[Jay R]

Sshh! Rich wants everybody to be completely surprised at the return of Baron Pineapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

Oops.

[cybishop]

There are a lot of ways this story could go and a lot of dangling plot threads.


We know there's something we don't know about the Gates and the Snarl. Simply put, what's with the world on the other side? None of the accounts we've heard about the Snarl say anything about that. Maybe it's an illusion, maybe it's just that the Snarl lives on a world, or maybe the Snarl is nothing like what we've been told.
We don't know what Hel's plan actually is. It may involve the Gate, it may be something else specific that will put Durkon at odds with the Order, it may just be to spread a whole lot of death and destruction in Dwarven lands.
The IFCC might just want destructive unnecessary conflict, but there's probably more going on than that. We have no idea what.
We know that the Monster in the Dark is powerful and starting to have doubts about Team Evil. But that doesn't mean he's actually going to join the heroes either. Maybe when he finally has enough of being pushed around he'll start trying to eat everyone in reverse alphabetical order.
The Azurites still want to reclaim Gobbotopia. Redcloak crushed the resistance in Gobbotopia before he left, but now that he and Xykon are gone, a fresh army of Azurites and/or elves would have a chance to reconquer it conventionally. But on the other hand the Azurites still have a scheming, backstabbing class of nobles. We know that one of them even consorted with devils (demons, imps, whatever). This could be an unwanted distraction for any side.
Tarquin is bitter about a sleight to his monstrous ego. He or his friends control the region a rift is in, and the Snarl seems to be reaching through that rift. His party just lost one member and a big division of Tarquin's army on a disastrous personal quest. And saying that they "control" the region is putting things too strongly in the first place. Their entire shell game depends on three warring factions constantly swapping alliances. That kind of thing can fall apart even if smart people are in charge of it, which isn't the case there.
The Graysky City Thieves' Guild is probably sending assassins after Haley. They're minor league compared to most of this, but again, could be an unwanted distraction.
Belkar is doomed to die in the near future. How and why, exactly? In my opinion, it'll probably be tragic. I'm not predicting an actual alignment shift, but he's becoming a more compassionate, thoughtful person. However, no one has noticed. It's entirely possible that he'll die making a totally badass heroic sacrifice, with one important job left to do that the fate of the world hinges on, and the Order chooses not to resurrect him because they figure it's good riddance. That's sad... and could make a huge difference to whatever the mission really is.
We know that Redcloak plans to use and betray Xykon. Maybe Xykon's already aware of it and still thinks he can use Redcloak somehow. Maybe he's not aware of it now, but he'll figure it out in time to turn on Redcloak. Or maybe he won't, and maybe Redcloak's plan will work perfectly. Hell, then Xykon might have to team up with the Order to save the world from the Snarl-empowered Dark One.


Most (but probably not all) of those will be resolved before the end and relevant to it, but maybe not. There are lot of ways those threads could be weaved together. Remember, there's at least two books left, counting the one we're still in the prologue of.

[Burner28]

I get the reference of the title.

[AGD]

The Giant has shown numerous times so far that he masters the basic rules of "what not to do in storytelling". One of these rules says that if you spend most of the story focusing on one main antagonist, you cannot change it at the last minute (although you can try inserting doubts in readers' minds about this main antagonist being the main antagonist). The reason is simple: it is simply mean to the reader to create expectations that you have no intention to fulfill.

I think that Redcloak has also more than enough focus on him, that it wouldn't be dissappointing, if he would be the main antagonist in the last minute.

[littlebum2002]

I'm certainly glad to hear everyone's opinions about who the main antagonists of this strip are, but it kinda derailed from the original point of the thread which was:

Hasn't it been over a week since Xykon teleported to the next gate? Shouldn't he be finished, or at least close to, emptying out that dungeon by now?

[Keltest]

I'm certainly glad to hear everyone's opinions about who the main antagonists of this strip are, but it kinda derailed from the original point of the thread which was:

Hasn't it been over a week since Xykon teleported to the next gate? Shouldn't he be finished, or at least close to, emptying out that dungeon by now?

Possibly. We don't actually have any idea how big the dungeon is, and even Xykon and Redcloak would run out of spells eventually. The MITD could probably just keep going until he ran out of dungeon, but that would require him to leave the darkness, so that isn't happening.

[cybishop]

I'm certainly glad to hear everyone's opinions about who the main antagonists of this strip are, but it kinda derailed from the original point of the thread which was:

Hasn't it been over a week since Xykon teleported to the next gate? Shouldn't he be finished, or at least close to, emptying out that dungeon by now?

I don't have a link to a relevant strip handy, but I think I remember from somewhere or other that the ritual itself takes time. Days or weeks, not hours or minutes. The Order could still have several days to catch up after Xykon and Redcloak completely clear out Kraagor's gate.

Also, the Order isn't the only group that could slow Team Evil down. There are plenty of other factions with an interest in what's going on. See above.

Also, even if Team Evil does have time to complete the ritual, that's not necessarily the end of the world or the end of the story. See above about potential conflict between Redcloak and Xykon, and uncertainty about what the Gates and the Snarl really do.

[littlebum2002]

And about those other groups (Hinjo, the elves, etc). Are they just chilling, waiting for the OOTS to show up? I doubt it. They have to be doing SOMETHING in the meantime. Obviously, (to me) Rich isn't showing it because he's on a roll here, but I have the feeling that soon we're gonna have a break in this story to jump in the middle of the action at the last gate.



EDIT:


I don't have a link to a relevant strip handy, but I think I remember from somewhere or other that the ritual itself takes time. Days or weeks, not hours or minutes. The Order could still have several days to catch up after Xykon and Redcloak completely clear out Kraagor's gate.

Oddly enough, I was just scrolling through the archives, and just so happened to stumble upon that strip!

:xykon: They're likely to get upset if we loiter in the throne room for the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)


Of course, I don't think that comment was off-hand at ALL, I think it was directly aimed at this moment, when they're gonna bust in on Xykon performing some rituals in the next few days.

EDIT 2: It's been 7 days (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) since Xykon teleported. He should be nearing the gate by now, if hes not already there.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

EDIT 2: It's been 7 days (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) since Xykon teleported. He should be nearing the gate by now, if hes not already there.

I count 4 days. Xykon teleported on Day 20, and it is now Day 24. The ritual most definitely isn't completed, even if it has been begun.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also the small detail that Xykon might wait until he's finished regenerating his legs. Or at least take it a bit slower.

[littlebum2002]

I count 4 days. Xykon teleported on Day 20, and it is now Day 24. The ritual most definitely isn't completed, even if it has been begun.

Why on earth did I think it was day 17?


There's also the small detail that Xykon might wait until he's finished regenerating his legs. Or at least take it a bit slower.

TOTALLY forgot that we're dealing with half a Xykon

[LadyEowyn]

He's a sorcerer and can fly, having legs isn't really essential for him.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I, too, appreciate the reference.

[littlebum2002]

He's a sorcerer and can fly, having legs isn't really essential for him.

I was going to ask if there wasn't some sort of Constitution penalty for missing limbs, then I remembered. Lich. Nm.

[Keltest]

I was going to ask if there wasn't some sort of Constitution penalty for missing limbs, then I remembered. Lich. Nm.

remember, though, that Xykon is lazy. He isn't going to pop a spell when he can make redcloak pull him in a wagon.

[YossarianLives]

I may be wrong but I believe Sabine still has a part to play in the story. It could be she'll help take down Tarquin.

[Killer Angel]

The Giant has shown numerous times so far that he masters the basic rules of "what not to do in storytelling". One of these rules says that if you spend most of the story focusing on one main antagonist, you cannot change it at the last minute (although you can try inserting doubts in readers' minds about this main antagonist being the main antagonist). The reason is simple: it is simply mean to the reader to create expectations that you have no intention to fulfill.

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon.

It's not that the secret agenda of Redcloack is unknown to the readers. He can very easily be a legitimate BBEG.

[Keltest]

It's not that the secret agenda of Redcloack is unknown to the readers. He can very easily be a legitimate BBEG.

"BBEG"? I am unfamiliar with that acronym.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"BBEG"? I am unfamiliar with that acronym.

Big Bad Evil Guy, I believe.

[17arkOracle]

Xykon is the main bad guy.

Red Cloak (along with the Dark One) and the IFCC are "come from behind" bad guys. Neither of them are really actively directing the plot (everything they've done is in reaction to Xykon or the Order) but they all have plans they're preparing to spring which will undoubtedly move them up to "main bad guy". Most likely around when Xykon leaves the story as to prevent things from getting cluttered. Snarl may also be a "come from behind" bad guy, but it's also possible he'll just function solely as a weapon for everyone else's plans.

Nale, Tarquin, and the Grey Sky Guild are arc bad guys. They have much more of a presence in their respective story lines than Xykon, but after their arc is done you don't really think about them. You know they're out there, sure, and they'll come back at the very least to finish their plot lines, but they're not really affecting the overall story. In Nale's case he was in two more Xykon-heavy arcs (the first and Azure City) but existed to be a threat and add some tension in the first half, before Xykon showed up.

You could also consider Nale and Tarquin to be "secondary bad guys" since they do have a more lasting presence than most other arc bad guys (with the Grey Sky Guild really only being the other one to matter, and even then barely). Tarquin killing Nale was sort of a handing off of the reins since having two secondary bad guys running around would've cluttered things.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Reddish Mage]

The Giant has shown numerous times so far that he masters the basic rules of "what not to do in storytelling". One of these rules says that if you spend most of the story focusing on one main antagonist, you cannot change it at the last minute (although you can try inserting doubts in readers' minds about this main antagonist being the main antagonist). The reason is simple: it is simply mean to the reader to create expectations that you have no intention to fulfill.

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon. Simply because I know The Giant is a fine storyteller. How we will get there, including how Xykon will win over all the other antagonists, is the point of it all.

By the way, the Snarl and the IIFC being antagonists isn't obvious. The Order might be able to deal with the gate situation without having to face or defeat them.

How do you get this unbreakable rule that you can't change main antagonists in a story? Certainly an author can create expectations he has no intention of fulfilling, that is how a how most mysteries work as well as the infamous "trick ending."

I'm also not sure that Xykon has really been set up as the "main antagonist" for "most of the story."


Xykon is the main bad guy.

Red Cloak (along with the Dark One) and the IFCC are "come from behind" bad guys. Neither of them are really actively directing the plot (everything they've done is in reaction to Xykon or the Order) but they all have plans they're preparing to spring which will undoubtedly move them up to "main bad guy". Most likely around when Xykon leaves the story as to prevent things from getting cluttered. Snarl may also be a "come from behind" bad guy, but it's also possible he'll just function solely as a weapon for everyone else's plans.

Nale, Tarquin, and the Grey Sky Guild are arc bad guys. They have much more of a presence in their respective story lines than Xykon, but after their arc is done you don't really think about them. You know they're out there, sure, and they'll come back at the very least to finish their plot lines, but they're not really affecting the overall story. In Nale's case he was in two more Xykon-heavy arcs (the first and Azure City) but existed to be a threat and add some tension in the first half, before Xykon showed up.

You could also consider Nale and Tarquin to be "secondary bad guys" since they do have a more lasting presence than most other arc bad guys (with the Grey Sky Guild really only being the other one to matter, and even then barely). Tarquin killing Nale was sort of a handing off of the reins since having two secondary bad guys running around would've cluttered things.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Particularly in the case of Redcloak, I think there is a strong case for him being the BBEG. He has had equal if not more screen time than Xykon, and has a richer characterization. Redcloak has had his moments directing the plot, and Xykon, ultimately, has no way to use the Snarl, no way to get what he wants with or without Redcloak.

The way things have been set up Redcloak has always had Xykon aimed at a goal that has no use for Xykon.

The IFCC are indeed antagonists as they have been influencing the plot to their own ends (and we know they differ from Redcloak/Xykon's). The OOTS may be able to defeat them without engaging the fiends in combat, but they will have to defeat their plans through their own heroics unless another villain steps up to the plate for them.

The Snarl has had no influence on the plot as a character as of yet, and has been merely a piece to be manipulated by others.

Nale, Tarquin, and Bozzok are not single arc villains for the simple reason we have seen most of them in more than one arc. We have not seen the resolution to Ian Starshine's attack on Tarquin, or what Bozzok may do, given his continuing interest in Haley. It is likely we have not seen the last of these characters.

Finally, no one has mentioned Hel and her plans. They may not involve the Snarl, and they may be of the single-arc variety, but that certainly isn't clear.

[littlebum2002]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

[Keltest]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

A lot of major villains are sympathetic. That doesn't make them less evil in their methods, even if you can understand where theyre coming from. He is planning on risking all of existence (or at the very least the world) for the sake of people who are clearly capable of taking care of themselves if theyre motivated to.

[ti'esar]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

His goals are fairly sympathetic - though I think there's room to debate whether he truly wants goblin equality or goblin supremacy - but that doesn't mean his actions in pursuit of them are. At the very least, the fact that he's still willing to play chicken with creation after having established a stable goblin city-state should give people pause.

As far as the actual thread topic goes, I've said it before: I think Xykon and Redcloak are collectively a dual "big bad". Neither one would be nearly as dangerous without the other. Whoever comes out on top when the probably inevitable falling-out occurs doesn't really matter, particularly since it's probably going to be at the very end of the comic.

[littlebum2002]

If you use Evil in pursuit of a Good goal, I believe that is a Neutral act. And I really fail to see how "stopping the Genocide of an entire race" would be anything BUT a Good act, at least in the OOTS universe.

[Keltest]

If you use Evil in pursuit of a Good goal, I believe that is a Neutral act. And I really fail to see how "stopping the Genocide of an entire race" would be anything BUT a Good act, at least in the OOTS universe.

some of it depends on context, but motivation generally wont move an act very far towards good on the alignment scale. While genocide is bad, that doesn't mitigate the horror of counter genocide, which at the end of the day has been deemed an acceptable and even likely outcome of The Plan.

[littlebum2002]

Did Redcloak ever suggest that the Dark One would actually USE the snarl? Or is it just to bluff the gods? If they call his bluff, I think releasing the snarl would hurt him just as much as the other gods.

[Keltest]

Did Redcloak ever suggest that the Dark One would actually USE the snarl? Or is it just to bluff the gods? If they call his bluff, I think releasing the snarl would hurt him just as much as the other gods.

I cant remember where exactly (Ill look) but im fairly certain that Redcloak flat out admits that The Plan has a serious risk of global destruction as a consequence.

Ah hah! found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html)

[Morty]

What Redcloak says his motives are and what they really are do not necessarily align. Redcloak says he wants equality for his people. And he certainly does. What he won't admit is his lust for simple revenge and making humans pay. And the desire to justify all he's done and sacrificed so far.

Now, as for the question, I don't think there needs to be one bad guy for the entire comic. I do expect the cadre of villains to thin out in the coming years as the story draws to a close, but I don't believe there will necessarily be a big climactic showdown with the ultimate end boss.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But that's all well and fine, because The Dark One will be in on the creation of the next world.

[Jasdoif]

I cant remember where exactly (Ill look) but im fairly certain that Redcloak flat out admits that The Plan has a serious risk of global destruction as a consequence.

Ah hah! found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html)In addition to that strip....Redcloak has admitted that in the case of something going wrong and the Snarl being released, that the world will be destroyed. But as Rogar Demonblud alluded to, Redcloak says that's acceptable because the Dark One will have a part in the creation of the next world, and can keep any of that world's humanoids from being purposefully disadvantaged the way the goblins were in this one. He called it a win for the Dark One "no matter what happens."

I think that may need to sink in a bit: Redcloak finds acceptable a scenario where every goblin on the planet is destroyed.

I'm sure Redcloak supports bettering the condition of goblinoids in the world, but they're still expendable to him, so that cannot be his primary motivation.

[Reddish Mage]

Redcloaks motivations are quite clear as well as why he is evil and isn't meant to be a good guy in anyway (as the Giant has weighed in time and again).

Redcloak wants to bring about the Dark One's plan to set goblinkind on a more "equal footing" with the PC races. This is a goal he is willing to risk the entire universe (including himself) for. It is the ideal and not specific goblins, that Redcloak works for. Actual goblins he sees as expendable (isn't this mentioned on his card in the board game?).

As to why this is evil, its precisely because of what Redcloak is willing to do to fulfill his plan as well as the fact that Redcloak wasn't able to accept his brother's actual humble peaceful goblin village, despite presenting a perfectly pleasant existence, simply because it wasn't the fulfillment of "the Plan." The fact that Redcloak has a lust for revenge against the Azurites as well as possibly a loathing of humanity in general doesn't help matters.

[hamishspence]

As to why this is evil, its precisely because of what Redcloak is willing to do to fulfill his plan as well as the fact that Redcloak wasn't able to accept his brother's actual humble peaceful goblin village, despite presenting a perfectly pleasant existence, simply because it wasn't the fulfillment of "the Plan." .

Initially, yes. However:

he was able to accept it by the end of that arc - and a happy ending was in the offing - but then Xykon turned up and forced all the goblins in the village to join him, and had the village burnt down.

[littlebum2002]

Am I failing for an unreliable narrator again, like I did with Tarquin?

[runeghost]

I may be wrong but I believe Sabine still has a part to play in the story. It could be she'll help take down Tarquin.

I'm still betting that there will be a line of plot in the lower planes, likely featuring Belkar (deceased), Sabine, and probably some other characters we know.

[Darth Paul]

Am I failing for an unreliable narrator again, like I did with Tarquin?

I don't know what went on between you and Tarquin. :smallbiggrin: But it's dangerous to accept Redcloak's account of his actions and motives at face value, especially when we can look and see them right there on the pages in front of us and see that what he does, does not mesh with what he claims he does (or why he claims he does it). RC is dangerous with a capital D, not only to his enemies but also to his followers and friends; and however sympathetic his backstory is (and believe me, I sympathize), it does not make him less villainous when he goes through with his villainous plots.

Could there be a redemption in his future? Maybe. RC could have a moment of realization leading to a climactic heel-face turn in his arc; but it could just as easily be an Enemy Mine moment when he realizes that he needs Roy's sword and/or Vaarsuvius' magic to defeat Xykon in the end, after which he'll go back to being a villain again (if he survives).

[Zaclock]

How do you get this unbreakable rule that you can't change main antagonists in a story? Certainly an author can create expectations he has no intention of fulfilling, that is how a how most mysteries work as well as the infamous "trick ending."


I never said the rule is unbreakable. I meant the rule is required for good storytelling. "Good" being the key word. Of course, considering not all stories have pro- and antagonists, implied here was the genre of storytelling at play: action. The mystery genre works with its own basic rules to be followed, one of which is: the reader needs to be surprised at the end. But this supports my point: a good storyteller makes sure to respect the basic rules of the story's genre(s). If the story has more than one genre, the good storyteller makes sure to follow all of these genres' basic rules.

OoTS is obviously more than action. But it is primarily action, so I have no doubts we will get this final showdown. There will probably be some further events after that fight, probably some surprising events as well, but these will follow a line of "closure" and "cleaning the holes in the plot" rather than a line of "expanding the plot".

Just take the last book as a case in point. The main antagonist in this book was Tarquin, and the book concluded with an epic fight with Tarquin. I remember somewhere in the forum, some readers expressed disappointment that there wasn't a fight between Team Evil and the Order when they encountered. And The Giant responded there was simply no way there would be such a fight in this book, as the arc's main antagonist was Tarquin, not Xykon. There were a few events after the end of the fight with Tarquin, but I'm quite sure in most readers' mind, after Tarquin fell off the airship, the arc was over. What would follow would close the arc or set the stage for the next one. In the bigger story, there will be no further stage to set after Xykon is out, following good rules of [action] storytelling. What will follow will only be closure.

[Morty]

Redcloak did decide to settle there in the end, before Xykon interfered, but he wasn't entirely wrong earlier, either. Simply settling down and trying to eke out a living on the outskirts of civilized races probably wasn't enough. If the village grew more prosperous, with the help of a powerful cleric, who's to say some adventurers wouldn't decide to cleanse this den of foul goblins?

[Petrocorus]

I think that Redcloak has also more than enough focus on him, that it wouldn't be dissappointing, if he would be the main antagonist in the last minute.
I also believe that RedCloak is the real BBEG, or at least the one who actually understand the situation and know where he is going.
We must not discard Xykon however, he's not stupid and could perfectly understand what RC is planning and turn the situation to his advantage.



I, too, appreciate the reference.

Personally, i don't. Captain?

[Galen]

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon. Simply because I know The Giant is a fine storyteller. How we will get there, including how Xykon will win over all the other antagonists, is the point of it all.No matter how many doubts JK Rowling put into her reader's minds about Harry Potter's destiny and Harry Potter defeating, or not defeating, Lord Voldemort, there was never any doubt in my mind HP will defeat LV and live happily every after. And despite the end being predetermined, it was still one heck of a ride.

Same applies for OotS. The end is, I agree, Roy defeating Xykon. The road there is going to be fun.

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

Journey before destination. Doing Evil acts for Good reasons is still doing Evil acts.

To put it in other words, Redcloak is not evil because he wants equality for his people, he's evil because he is willing to do evil things to get said equality.

[Porthos]

Journey before destination. Doing Evil acts for Good reasons is still doing Evil acts.

To put it in other words, Redcloak is not evil because he wants equality for his people, he's evil because he is willing to do evil things to get said equality.

This also presumes that he still wants 'just' equality. It's entierly possible to read the current text and to come to a conclusion that Redcloak wants equality.... with interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html).

It wouldn't be the first time someone started with noble goals and then lost sight along the way.

[GAAD]

This also presumes that he still wants 'just' equality. It's entierly possible to read the current text and to come to a conclusion that Redcloak wants equality.... with interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html).

It wouldn't be the first time someone started with noble goals and then lost sight along the way.

Interesting. now I can't help but compare Redcloak to Forge (http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=246).
"We burn the present for the sake of a brighter future and act surprised when all it holds is ash."

Redcloak, Don't screw this up.

[Brumagris]

I believe everybody forgot about O´Chul and Lien? They were heading to Kraagor´s gate at the time the OOTS went to Girard´s... if they arrive and there are sapient defense systems, they will probably forge a way to stop or at least contain Xykon and Redcloak... if they arrive and the defenses are not sapient, the least they would do is set an ambush, wouldn´t they?

So, best case scenario, Xykon and Redcloak are blocked, worst case scenario they are ralentized.

[nyjastul69]

I believe everybody forgot about O´Chul and Lien? They were heading to Kraagor´s gate at the time the OOTS went to Girard´s... if they arrive and there are sapient defense systems, they will probably forge a way to stop or at least contain Xykon and Redcloak... if they arrive and the defenses are not sapient, the least they would do is set an ambush, wouldn´t they?

So, best case scenario, Xykon and Redcloak are blocked, worst case scenario they are ralentized.

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

[Gandariel]

My 2 cp

There are two books to go.

My personal theory is that *something* will happen in this book, and in the climax the heroes (or the bad guys) (or both ) will step into the "other world " and spend most of the last book there.

Simply because from a narrative standpoint, there isn't much to do here anymore. And they showed us that there IS another world, so something about it will eventually happen.

If the giant wants to make that happen aT the end of this book, I have no idea of what's gonna be in here.right now it looks like it's gonna be an easy road to the big showdown, and even the protagonists are saying they're near to the end.

So I don't know. Surely something cool and interesting will happen and will make it so that the big showdown will not happen in 20 strips.

Also, there's plenty of loose ends to connect in this remaining time. But any speculation on those would really have no basis, so I won't even try

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

Slowed down, possibly?

[Petrocorus]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

"Ralenti" is a French word for "slowed down". The Italian is similar. It probably means that.

[Brumagris]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ah. In English, that would be 'delayed'.

[nyjastul69]

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

Thank you all kindly for the education.

[Petrocorus]

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

Would Brumagris means something like GreyFog?

[Brumagris]

Would Brumagris means something like GreyFog?

It is a pretty good translation, yes.


Having the English part sorted out, would it be time to come back to ontopic before a mod puts us up to our toes¿? :P

In the case that O´Chul and Lien arrive and have to face Team Evil, what do you guys think would be their best shot? Please, consider that they have plenty of time to prepare a good strategy and ambush.

[Petrocorus]

Having the English part sorted out, would it be time to come back to ontopic before a mod puts us up to our toes¿? :P

Don't worry. This forum actually help me improve my English, too. This and movies with English audio and subtitles.



In the case that O'Chul and Lien arrive and have to face Team Evil, what do you guys think would be their best shot? Please, consider that they have plenty of time to prepare a good strategy and ambush.

Remember that O'Chul and Lien are high-mid level Paladins, i don't remember exactly which ones, we should consult the Class and Level Geekery Thread. Team Evil is a High level Cleric (something like 18) and an Epic Level Sorcerer, plus MitD whose actions are difficultly predictable. O'Chul already faced Xykon, one single paralysing touch from Xykon was enough.

So i don't know what strategy they may use, but they certainly will not be at their advantage, and may resort to destroying the gate.
And concerning the time they have ahead, it's not that sure IIRC, that they know Team Evil is coming so soon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Don't worry. This forum actually help me improve my English, too. This and movies with English audio and subtitles.



Remember that O'Chul and Lien are high-mid level Paladins, i don't remember exactly which ones, we should consult the Class and Level Geekery Thread. Team Evil is a High level Cleric (something like 18) and an Epic Level Sorcerer, plus MitD whose actions are difficultly predictable. O'Chul already faced Xykon, one single paralysing touch from Xykon was enough.

So i don't know what strategy they may use, but they certainly will not be at their advantage, and may resort to destroying the gate.
And concerning the time they have ahead, it's not that sure IIRC, that they know Team Evil is coming so soon.

They should know that Team Evil is coming through the same method that OOTS found out; Hinjo should give them a sending. However, it is unlikley that there will be a whole lot they can do. I do not think they will resort to destroying the Gate (if they are indeed in a position to do so), because it would be taking quite a risk.

[Emanick]

They should know that Team Evil is coming through the same method that OOTS found out; Hinjo should give them a sending. However, it is unlikley that there will be a whole lot they can do. I do not think they will resort to destroying the Gate (if they are indeed in a position to do so), because it would be taking quite a risk.

Assuming everything we know is accurate, I don't think it would be so much a risk as a near-guarantee that the Snarl would be able to enter the world and kill everyone on the Prime Material Plane. I don't see O-Chul or Lien doing something that would precipitate that, no matter what.

Also, I don't see them entering Kraagor's Dungeon at all, given how ridiculously dangerous it looks to be, so it's unlikely that they'd have the opportunity to destroy the Gate in any case. I could be wrong on that, of course.

[littlebum2002]

They should know that Team Evil is coming through the same method that OOTS found out; Hinjo should give them a sending. However, it is unlikley that there will be a whole lot they can do. I do not think they will resort to destroying the Gate (if they are indeed in a position to do so), because it would be taking quite a risk.

It's been days since Team Evil teleported to the last gate. If Hinjo hasn't cast Sending by now, he's not going to.

[Keltest]

It's been days since Team Evil teleported to the last gate. If Hinjo hasn't cast Sending by now, he's not going to.

We don't know what either party has been up to since Hinjo sent a Sending to the Order. For all we know, O-chul could have pressed the "Collapse the Dungeon" rune with Xykon and Redcloak inside.

[Breccia]

Question: is "the Snarl" really an antagonist? In what limited evidence we have (most of it narration and second-hand as well), the Snarl's only role is to attack and unmake everything within reach. We have no evidence that it's sentient, and it definitely doesn't seem to be in control of its own destiny. I have a hard time believing it can be fought, either. From what we've seen so far, it just seems like the Snarl is a far more extreme version of "rocks fall, everyone dies".

Back on topic, my opinion:
-- I personally feel that Redcloak is the main villain here. Not only is he thinking the furthest ahead, he has the most power under his direct control. Also, he's working on a direct divine mission, and that's about as strong of a motivation as you can get.
-- Xykon is incredibly dangerous, and could quite possibly go the rest of the strip not knowing he's not really in charge. The topic of "what happens if Xykon is destroyed" has been tossed around a while, and with good reason. But he's not a great planner overall, not compared to Redcloak at least.
-- we're done with Elans's family issues. I'm willing to bet that's now just completely over. Tarquin's been worse than killed, he's been ignored.
-- Hel, I'll admit, is a current wild card. But one that's actually relatively easy to resolve once discovered: the remaining OotS is capable of (especially now) dusting Durkon in a straight-up fight, after which, Hel won't have much left to use. I expect to see that arc dealt with next, followed by the epic showdown.

[hamishspence]

Question: is "the Snarl" really an antagonist? In what limited evidence we have (most of it narration and second-hand as well), the Snarl's only role is to attack and unmake everything within reach. We have no evidence that it's sentient, and it definitely doesn't seem to be in control of its own destiny.

Shojo does describe it as "growing more intelligent - growing more hateful"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

How intelligent (and, how reliable is his account), we don't know.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's been days since Team Evil teleported to the last gate. If Hinjo hasn't cast Sending by now, he's not going to.

Probably not. I'm betting that he would have done so by now, though (well, technically, Hinjo wouldn't cast it).

[littlebum2002]

Question: is "the Snarl" really an antagonist?

Rich has explicitly stated that it is not. I'll find the quote.

EDIT: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14813005&postcount=89)

EDIT2: There is no one I would rather ninja me about a quote from Rich than the Banana in the Playground.

[Jasdoif]

Rich has explicitly stated that it is not. I'll find the quote.I believe you're looking for this:
The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

[Keltest]

I believe you're looking for this:

Praise the banana!