Is there an optimization tier list?

[gawwy]

Im always getting asked by both my players and people on the playground what optimization level to expect at the table / aim for.

now i know about the class tier list and the prestige class tier list.

is there an optimization tier list? where punpun is tier 0 and the other levels are muchkinery is sorted into groups?

if not is it possible to start building one? i know we still have UrPreist hanging around im not sure if JarronK is.

[Amphetryon]

There was an informal one associated with the Test of Spite:

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8399961&postcount=1)

[gawwy]

Here's the ToS Tier System as I remember it:

Tier -2: Pun Pun

Tier -1: An unbeatable build.

Tier 0: An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers.

Tier .5: A build that can probably only be beaten if you have specifically prepared for it. Example: Sofawall's Cube build.

Tier 1: A build that has many effective tricks, insanely high defenses, and can end most encounters in a round. Example: A very effectively played Batman wizard.

Tier 2: Multiple great tricks and great defenses. Where I usually build for. Example: A CoDzilla or a Warmarked.

Tier 3: A build that either has one great trick or a lot of moderately good ones, while still having stellar defenses. Example: A well made Warblade, a good tripper, or a buff focused Sorcerer.

Tier 4: A build that, while still having a trick or two, has fallen very short on the defensive side of the line or has great defenses without being able to defeat an opponent on its own very easily. Example: A Charging Fighter or a VoP Monkadin.

Tier 5: A build that, while attempting to be optimized, still has neither good defenses nor a worthwile trick. Example: A typical fighter.

Tier 6: A build that *twitch* chooses feats for flavor reasons *twitch*


i think this is it. is it possible for us to expand on this/ make it more obvious what falls into what category

[Amphetryon]

i think this is it. is it possible for us to expand on this/ make it more obvious what falls into what category

The big issue is that there are so many permutations of builds, compounded by so many permutations of play-styles. Concepts that worked wonders in ToS or other PvP environments can fall flat in a more standardized dungeon-crawl, or in the hands of players who are less well-versed in how to make a particular build work. "Player>Build>Class" is commonly cited around here to indicate that the player is the most important part in the equation; "player" can be expanded to include those with whom a given person plays, as well, since D&D is generally a group-oriented game.

[gawwy]

So at best we could rank the build.

as you said with there being so many variations on each build a tier list is probably not going to work.

what if we assigned points based on capabilities. split abilities into offensive and defensive.

eg has 20 ac is worth 10 points having 22 ac is 11 points. non touch ac points cap at 15. touch ac caps higher.

the ability to do 20 points of damage against ac x y percent of the time ass a full attack is 1 point.

immunity to acid is 10 points.

basically a long list of attacks and defenses and modifies for each add the points together to get an op number.

might have to dig up the optimization by the numbers stuff to set target acs and saves.

im aware that this will be complex as **** but i can hide it behind a nice interface if people start weighing in with what certain abilities should be worth.

[Greenish]

basically a long list of attacks and defenses and modifies for each add the points together to get an op number.No.

Things like AC and acid resistance are so far from relevance as to be… irrelevant (yeah that didn't work out like I'd hoped), in the larger scheme of things. Real power isn't about numbers, it's about options.

[gawwy]

AC and acid resist would be relevant in low op groups and low level games.

the idea is to make a system so that when someones like can some one build me an x to go in group y without overshadowing / being dead weight the play ground can be like whats the groups op number? and use that as a guide line.

[Amphetryon]

AC and acid resist would be relevant in low op groups and low level games.

the idea is to make a system so that when someones like can some one build me an x to go in group y without overshadowing / being dead weight the play ground can be like whats the groups op number? and use that as a guide line.

At which point you're separating out the tiers of the builds (themselves a subset of the tiers of the classes) from the tiers of the games, and still not necessarily reflecting what happens when, for example, the party's Dread Necromancer gets gakked in an ambush, and the player comes back with a different character that's nominally from the same tier, but with a different set of options than the DN presented to the group, like a Binder.

[gawwy]

So basically there's no easy answer.

damn :(

[Hand_of_Vecna]

After you've finished a build, or just have it sketched out if your system mastery is high enough, throw the character against the example scenarios from the Tier List.

[emeraldstreak]

the baseline I used to use for an optimized build was being able to solo all monsters of CR=level

[paperarmor]

What I find most useful are the celings and floors of the classes rather than focusing on every possible or even noteable build.

[Jack_Simth]

So basically there's no easy answer.

damn :(

There kind of is, although it doesn't rate buff-centric or skill-centric builds effectively.

Pit Fiend Offence and Pit Fiend Defence.

Pit Fiend Offence:
The character (as normally played) is running around, no a "dangerous" day, but not yet encountered anything dangerous (so stuff you'd normally have up all day is up - like Mage Armor - but not stuff you'd cast just before a fight you know you're walking into). With no warning, the character is dropped into a field full of Dazed Pit Fiends, and told to kill as many of them as the character can in one minute. On average, how many can the character take down?

Pit Fiend Defence:
The character (as normally played) is running around, and with no warning is ambushed by some number of pit fiends. For [reasons], contingencies and other things that would let you escape or act first anyway don't function (you don't get to act, no matter how you slice it, and you're stuck facing them due to DM Fiat). How many Pit Fiends, no average, would it take to take the character down in one round? Note that these Pit Fiends have a special ability: Immunities (or effective immunities - if you have more Fire resistance than the stock Pit Fiend will regularly deal fire damage, it qualifies as an immunity for this purpose) have only a 50% chance of functioning.

[nedz]

The big issue is that there are so many permutations of builds, compounded by so many permutations of play-styles. Concepts that worked wonders in ToS or other PvP environments can fall flat in a more standardized dungeon-crawl, or in the hands of players who are less well-versed in how to make a particular build work. "Player>Build>Class" is commonly cited around here to indicate that the player is the most important part in the equation; "player" can be expanded to include those with whom a given person plays, as well, since D&D is generally a group-oriented game.

So really it should be Party>Player>Build>Class ?

Sounds about right to me, though it still leaves the DM out of the picture.

[Amphetryon]

So really it should be Party>Player>Build>Class ?

Sounds about right to me, though it still leaves the DM out of the picture.

From what I've seen, DMs can be the most influential, the least influential, or any spot in between when it comes to the effectiveness of optimization, depending on how closely they match an adventure to the adventurers, and how tightly they watch for the little 'fiddly tricks' a specific build might be able to do.

[nedz]

From what I've seen, DMs can be the most influential, the least influential, or any spot in between when it comes to the effectiveness of optimization, depending on how closely they match an adventure to the adventurers, and how tightly they watch for the little 'fiddly tricks' a specific build might be able to do.

Yes, DMs are probably on another axis. Char Op though mainly relates to Build, other than things like daily spell choice. Player is more about active choices in play — I've seen Monks outplay Tier 1s, though Party was relevant in that case since Monks buff well.

[Urpriest]

I tried to put a list of this sort together awhile back.

At the top, you've got Pun-Pun and similar high-TO, which don't really bear mentioning.

Below that, you've got singularity-cheese. This is where the Tippyverse lives, and it's characterized by using a relatively low number of spells to get access to essentially every ability in the game whenever you want. Like the Technological Singularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity), it dramatically changes how the game is played.

A level below that is what might be called "Tier 1 to its full potential". This is probably where the Twice Betrayer of Shar and Cindy live, maybe the Killer Gnome. More advanced stuff like Priya the Prismatic Priestess and the ExFighter probably live in the singularity-cheese tier. These builds are immune to almost anything and capable of taking on almost any threat, but they don't have quite the "all the resources all the time" situation that the singularity folks do.

Below that, you've got God tier, characterized by the God Wizard, the Batman Wizard, Solo's Sorceror, and (if I've got the right impression) Eggynack's Druids. You've got a big toolbox that lets you handle a wide variety of challenges, but you're not immune to absolutely every threat, and you actually have to do some work to win encounters. If you're reading a handbook for a Tier 1-2 class it will probably point you in this direction.

After that, you've got the realm of PO. Most (non Tier 1-2) handbook builds will fall into this category. If you're a damage dealer, you can probably kill an opponent of equal CR with a full attack, if they don't have special defenses. If not, you've generally got a broad toolbox of abilities, including one or two powerful tricks, but sometimes you'll have to struggle to apply yourself. Tier 3 classes naturally end up here without much effort, and can't get much more powerful without breaking their inherent limits in some way.

Further down, you've got everyday optimization. Players aiming for this have a decent idea of what's good and what's not, but generally lack knowledge of the full range of options. A player pursuing everyday optimization might build a character aiming for the Weapon Supremacy line of feats, or take Precise Shot on a Warlock.

Nearby but somewhat orthogonal, there's munchkin-op. Munchkins misunderstand and misrepresent the rules, often to dubious gain, and generally pursue the flashy and garish. Monkey Grip is a staple of such folk, as are psionic characters who conveniently forget the limit on power points spent.

Go down a bit, and you reach low-op. Low-op characters will take the most obvious, most easily accessible and clearly marked way to achieve their character goals. They care about effectiveness, but more in the sense of "wield a flaming rapier if they find one" than "build a character that can deal good damage with any weapon".

Finally, you've got intentionally low-op. These are the people who take Stealthy because they can't conceive of a better way to make a character stealthy. Generally, they run under an inconsistent net of houserules and misinterpretations thick enough to kill off any actual attempt at optimization, so their character sheet is essentially just a pile of descriptors with no mechanical import.

[Tasty_Magic]

I made a Magus build using a simple 3rd party archetype and two arcanas, could someone check it out and see what level it would be approximately? Btw I've added a few things (Like assuming I'm getting Ability tomes) Because my DM has already given me some stuff because of me killing 3 CR4's, and two CR5's at 3rd level. This is showing at max level of course. I've played for nearly 3 years now, but I haven't played with many different people; mainly just people I know IRL.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1029621