Making a super powerful Undead Army (3.5e)

[GetZakked]

I'm in a D&D 3.5 Campaign where my current goal is to amass a super massive, awesome undead army. So starting from level 1, with feats, what would be my best course of action to achieve a near limitless awesome army of undead that can totally wipe out my enemies (And the other players because it totally sounds like my undead army is not going to fly with some of them).

I was told to go, Cleric 3, Wizard 3, And then take Dread Necromancer all the way to the top. Is that the best course of action? What would be the best to do? We're a group of power gamers too, so feel free to be as creative as possible and add all the crazy shenanigans.

I also want to be a Lich, maybe even go as far as Demi-Lich at some point, but thats purely for character flavor.

Feel free to include stats and where my stats should go, domains. spells and what not if you'd like.

[Divide by Zero]

I was told to go, Cleric 3, Wizard 3, And then take Dread Necromancer all the way to the top. Is that the best course of action? What would be the best to do? We're a group of power gamers too, so feel free to be as creative as possible and add all the crazy shenanigans.

That's...pretty much the worst possible way to do it. Perhaps they meant True Necromancer? Which still sucks, but slightly less so.

If you're focusing on minions, your best options are Cleric 20, Dread Necromancer 20, or some levels of one of those followed by a prestige class that advances Rebuke Undead. Don't do anything that loses you caster levels or Rebuke Undead progression unless you get something REALLY good in return. Wizards are good at debuff-style necromancy, but they're missing out on Rebuke Undead and a few other goodies that Cleric and DN get for minions.

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=cshe5o0imoktvmqts2eu6e6l35&topic=2733) has lots of good info.

[OldTrees1]

Obligatory Question:
Do you want a small army, a large finite army, or an infinite army?

I will assume you want a large finite army (so no Wight-pocalypse)



Human Wizard(Necromancer) 1 / Dread Necromancer 4 / Red Wizard 10 / Dread Necromancer +5
Your goal is to get to Circle Magic ASAP for the 40 caster level. Along the way you will want to pick up Chain Spell metamagic and Versatile Spellcaster.

Feats:
1st(1HD, Human, 2 Flaws, Wizard1):
Heighten Spell, Tattoo Focus, Chain Spell, Precocious Apprentice(Animate Dead), Scribe Scroll
3rd(3HD):
Versatile Spellcaster
6th(6HD):
Undead Leadership
9th(9HD):
Easy Metamagic(Chain Spell) or Arcane Thesis(Command Undead)

At ECL 10 you command up to 40 * 21 * (# of 4th+ slots + 0.5 * # of 3rd level slots) undead of Max HD. This is about 40*21*8=840= 6720 20HD skeletons(or higher if they were dragons). This is not including the undead controlled by Animate Dead, Rebuke Undead or those controlled by your minions.

An important point: This army scales between level^3 and level^4. This is unique among control pools.

[Silva Stormrage]

Obligatory Question:
Do you want a small army, a large finite army, or an infinite army?

I will assume you want a large finite army (so no Wight-pocalypse)



Human Wizard(Necromancer) 1 / Dread Necromancer 4 / Red Wizard 10 / Dread Necromancer +5
Your goal is to get to Circle Magic ASAP for the 40 caster level. Along the way you will want to pick up Chain Spell metamagic and Versatile Spellcaster.

Feats:
1st(1HD, Human, 2 Flaws, Wizard1):
Heighten Spell, Tattoo Focus, Chain Spell, Precocious Apprentice(Animate Dead), Scribe Scroll
3rd(3HD):
Versatile Spellcaster
6th(6HD):
Undead Leadership
9th(9HD):
Easy Metamagic(Chain Spell) or Arcane Thesis(Command Undead)

At ECL 10 you command up to 40 * 21 * (# of 4th+ slots + 0.5 * # of 3rd level slots) undead of Max HD. This is about 40*21*8=840= 6720 20HD skeletons(or higher if they were dragons). This is not including the undead controlled by Animate Dead, Rebuke Undead or those controlled by your minions.

An important point: This army scales between level^3 and level^4. This is unique among control pools.

Note if you go this way make sure you pick up a ring of enduring arcana and other ways to prevent dispelling. Once you get circle magic going that shouldn't be an issue but before then an aoe dispel magic can ruin your day.

[Fouredged Sword]

You want three things to be the best necromancer possible.

1st, you want access to Animate Dead. This is how you create undead.

2nd, you want access to Rebuke Undead. This is the only way to control undead that A) you cannot create and B) are not mindless. This is how you get a vampire (and this all his spawn) under your control.

3rd, you want access to the Command Undead spell. This gives you control over any mindless undead for days/level with no save and no cap.

Now the base three

Cleric - Animate dead and rebuke undead are all here, no access to command undead means you have a hard cap of controlling no more than 6x your HD in undead.

Wizard - Animate dead and Control undead, but a lack of rebuke undead means you are stuck without any good smart minions

Dread Necromancer - Better than standard animate dead control cap mixed with rebuke undead means you have a very high cap on undead you can control directly. Command undead is also accessible.

Cheese free you should be able to control undead along this baseline

Animate dead (and it's better versions) caps out at 4xHD of undead (cheese you way past this cap)
Rebuke undead caps out at 2xHD of undead, restricted to no more than 1/2 your HD (cheese ways around this).
Control undead controls your CL number of mindless undead per 2nd+ level spell slot you are willing to burn each day (again, say cheese!).

Therefore her is how you should use them.

Animate dead is for fodder undead. See if you can get a way around the cost so you can keep this going without burining cash.
Rebuke undead is for smart generals who can opperate without your direct supervision. Try to get things that can spawn and also meet as many of their own control methods as possible. These are high value undead, like slaymates, shadows, vampires, and other smart things that can control other things.
Control undead is for big nasty mindless undead that can curbstomp things. Look up the zombie dragon rules. This is for them.

[Ellowryn]

Clerics can get command undead through the Necromancer Domain (ECS), and if its really important they can use it more than once per day if they are willing to go for a alternative class feature or two.

[OldTrees1]

Control undead controls your CL number of mindless undead per 2nd+ level spell slot you are willing to burn each day (again, say cheese!).

Therefore her is how you should use them.

Animate dead is for fodder undead. See if you can get a way around the cost so you can keep this going without burining cash.
Rebuke undead is for smart generals who can opperate without your direct supervision. Try to get things that can spawn and also meet as many of their own control methods as possible. These are high value undead, like slaymates, shadows, vampires, and other smart things that can control other things.
Control undead is for big nasty mindless undead that can curbstomp things. Look up the zombie dragon rules. This is for them.
Good summary.
1) You keep switching between Command Undead and Control Undead. I this this is was a typo.
2) Don't forget Chain Spell Command Undead.
3) Animate Dead doesn't make enough undead to use as general fodder unless your army is tiny. However it is still good for bait.


Clerics can get command undead through the Necromancer Domain (ECS), and if its really important they can use it more than once per day if they are willing to go for a alternative class feature or two.

1/day is merely your caster level in undead. What are these 1-2 ACFs?

[Ellowryn]

1/day is merely your caster level in undead. What are these 1-2 ACFs?

Divine Magician from Complete Mage and Spontaneous Domain Casting from PHB 2, both allow you to cast Command Undead more than once per day. I believe there is also a feat that can do something similar to SDC but im not sure. Will have to look it up later.

[Inevitability]

Precocious Apprentice can get you Animate Dead at 1st-level. It's a must if you want some undead to boss around without having to gain some levels first.

[ace rooster]

At level 1 the best I can do is actually a conjuration specialised human wizard. With 1 flaw you can get fell drain, metamagic school focus, and Precocious apprentice for command undead (though it is not foolproof, but also not strictly required). Fell drain acid splash a commoner and they awake as a wight that evening. You have summon undead for thematic uses (A conjuration), and at level 3 you can pick up fell animate to get free zombies (provided you can get them to about 1 hp), with no hit dice limit!

A cleric can do something similar, if they are prepared to pick up spell focus conjuration. If they want augment summoning it might be worth it as a prerequisite for both. Death watch makes getting them to precisely 1hp much easier.

Necromancers work well, but require an extra spell level. At level 3 you can fell drain chill touch (Which is a frankly terrifying combination anyway, beaten only by fell drain produce flame) with metamagic school focus necro. At level 5 you can fell animate chill touch, so they are not behind the cleric in terms of when they can get zombies. Later you can use the metamagic school focus to chain command undead a level early.

Animate dead is better if you are a corpse crafter, but metamagic and spawn based creation are cheaper for mass use, as in building an army. Getting intelligent undead is much easier with metamagic.

Just a few thoughts, by no means claiming it is the best way of doing it.

[OldTrees1]

Oh, that reminds me:
No General Animates their own army. That is what their Corpsecrafter does.

[ComaVision]

I personally like the Cleric 2/X 1/Master of Shrouds 10 build, where X is a class with strong Will saves.

Grab Dynamic Priest so you can focus on Charisma (fuels Rebukes per Day and MoS class features) and you'll be able to DMM easily, command the undead that your MoS summonable undead create, and have a side of diplomancy as well.

[AvatarVecna]

Dont' forget about Leadership abuse, or more specifically, Undead Leadership abuse. A single feat, and you not only gain a powerful necromancer cohort, but you also gain a small army of the undead, to mix and match as you please. Keep in mind Leadership-boosting feats like Assemble the Horde, Extra Followers, and Improved Cohort. If both you and your cohort are Red Wizards, you can each pull off a trick like the one above, for extra oomph.

[Fouredged Sword]

Intelligent undead can UMD scrolls. A CL 20 scroll of Animate dead will give each of them an army of 80HD of minions regardless of the user's caster level or even HD.

[ace rooster]

Intelligent undead can UMD scrolls. A CL 20 scroll of Animate dead will give each of them an army of 80HD of minions regardless of the user's caster level or even HD.

Nice, though hitting the DC40 UMD check might be tricky (or at the very least cheesy). A slight improvement is a CL 20 wand that you pass about. If you are going to be using lots of castings anyway then this will work out cheaper and the UMD is a flat 20. All this assumes that you can remember where it says that undead from a single casting can excede the normal cap. Turns out I've forgotten and can't find it :smallfrown:.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you also can control up to 4x your caster level with animate dead. When using a scroll, your caster level is the scroll caster level.