[3.5] "Taking 4" with SA Dice

[A.A.King]

Here's a simple idea I had but I'm not sure if it is worth it (or new for that matter). It's an idea for a strength focused sneak attacker using a two-handed weapon

"Take 4"
Requirements: Sneak Attack, Power Attack, Precise Strike (from the Dragon Compendium)
What do you do: Convert your Sneak Attack Dice to +2 to hits, and then Power Attack for as much as your to hit increased. Thus: 1d6 of SA -> +2 To-Hit -> +4 PA Damage (provided your BAB => 2*#SADie)
Benefit: You can Power Attack without screwing with your to-hit bonus. Your "Sneak Attack damage" is fixed, so not worrying about rolling incredibly low. Your Sneak Attack Damage is now a fixed number, so it multiplies on Critical hit. Combine it with Craven and a +1 Keen Falchion for great critical hits

A build focused on this idea is probably going to deal less damage than a Schock Trooper Charger or a dedicated Two-Weapon Rogue, but I think still think it could work nicely. What does the playground think?

EDIT:
I realise now my presentation makes it look like a new feat, but it is not. This is just a combo where you use the feat "Precise Strike" from the Dragon Compendium and the feat "Power Attack" to increase your normal damage out-put by a fixed number without lowering your to-hit.

[Mr Adventurer]

Overcomes SA immunity and gets better than average on the die, plus multiplies. Strictly better than SA.

[PersonMan]

There's a Homebrew subforum for this kind of thing, you know. :smalltongue:

As for the feat itself, I feel like Power Attack and Sneak Attack are odd to have on the same character, as they don't benefit from the same style of fighting (big two hander vs multiple weapons). The feat text itself is also a bit funky, but that doesn't really change its function as long as you know what it means (and everyone else does, too).

[LTwerewolf]

Not sure why anyone would take it. Requires a 2h to be any decent, at which point why are you seeking out precision damage? Feat rogue if you want the skills would be better.

[A.A.King]

It's not a homebrew feat, it's simply a combo which relies on using the feat "Precise Strike" from the Dragon Compendium to feed "Power Attack". Would probably work best with Sneak Attack Thug Fighter

[animewatcha]

Don't forget though. To help with those that are immune to sneaks ( like immune to crits ), penetrative strike sub level.

Or heck. 'sneak attack' with a sanctum disintegrate wand.

[NichG]

IMO, the game doesn't really need more options aimed towards boosting damage. There's already a lot of that stuff, and someone who really wants to focus on damage can pretty easily get to the 'hitpoints are irrelevant' end of the pool if they want to. With respect to that kind of thing, this is actually even a bit of a trap option since it combines a lot of badly-comboing things: you have to use a 2h weapon to get the most benefit, but for crit-fishing and optimizing sneak attack damage you want to maximize your number of attacks per round so you want 2-weapon-fighting; you can't do this and power attack at the same time; you have to focus on both Str and Dex; etc.

Instead I think it'd be better to do more interesting things in the line of 'trade away SA dice for guaranteed status conditions'. There's a pretty strong niche for 'no save just suffer' and its pretty distinct from your friend the mailman or ubercharger.

So, for example:

- Trade 2 SA dice to negate 5 points of the target's DR and elemental resistances for a round [stacking]
- Trade 1 SA die to grant a -1 penalty to all damage dealt by the target for a round, including ability damage/drain [stacking]
- Trade 6 SA dice to disable a single (Ex) ability possessed by the target for one round [non-stacking]
- Trade 10 SA dice to disable a single (Su) ability possessed by the target for one round [non-stacking]

etc.

As far as reducing the bother of rolling huge pools for dice for sneak attack, I encourage my players to take average on any large dice pool rolls. No feat required.

[animewatcha]

IMO, the game doesn't really need more options aimed towards boosting damage. There's already a lot of that stuff, and someone who really wants to focus on damage can pretty easily get to the 'hitpoints are irrelevant' end of the pool if they want to. With respect to that kind of thing, this is actually even a bit of a trap option since it combines a lot of badly-comboing things: you have to use a 2h weapon to get the most benefit, but for crit-fishing and optimizing sneak attack damage you want to maximize your number of attacks per round so you want 2-weapon-fighting; you can't do this and power attack at the same time; you have to focus on both Str and Dex; etc.

Instead I think it'd be better to do more interesting things in the line of 'trade away SA dice for guaranteed status conditions'. There's a pretty strong niche for 'no save just suffer' and its pretty distinct from your friend the mailman or ubercharger.

So, for example:

- Trade 2 SA dice to negate 5 points of the target's DR and elemental resistances for a round [stacking]
- Trade 1 SA die to grant a -1 penalty to all damage dealt by the target for a round, including ability damage/drain [stacking]
- Trade 6 SA dice to disable a single (Ex) ability possessed by the target for one round [non-stacking]
- Trade 10 SA dice to disable a single (Su) ability possessed by the target for one round [non-stacking]

Party: Mr. Rogue, we need you to sneak attack our 20th level monk so we can enlarge him.

[A.A.King]

Remember, this is not a homebrew. It's just a combo I thought might work nicely on a more brutish type of rogue.

[Wacky89]

Remember, this is not a homebrew. It's just a combo I thought might work nicely on a more brutish type of rogue.

something you made up is the definition of homebrew.
If it's not already in the game = homebrew

[A.A.King]

something you made up is the definition of homebrew.
If it's not already in the game = homebrew

It's just a combination of feats, all of which are in the game. I realise my presentation made it look like a feat, but it's not a feat.

[Hamste]

Nice combo, though sneak attackers are quite feat starved so spending two feats for slightly more damage hurts.

[heavyfuel]

This might work with a Valanar Blade or whatever that class is called. Basically two handed two weapon fighting with this combo might be good, but probably comes online a little too late

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It isn't a very good combo, 4 is only a .5 bonus per die over rolling (avg 3.5).

There a a few things like Craven that are better damage sources for a Sneak Attacker and for a Power Attacker your best investment is probably going to be in reliable +tohit.

Just a friendly tip; don't use the formatting of feats for anything other than feats.

[heavyfuel]

It isn't a very good combo, 4 is only a .5 bonus per die over rolling (avg 3.5).

Just a friendly tip; don't use the formatting of feats for anything other than feats.

It might be a decent combo in crit-fishing builds.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with the friendly tip... It took me a while to realize it wasn't a homebrew

[Hamste]

Consistency is nice as well. I like to know my damage before rolling and while it is easy to figure out my average there is variation. I agree though, it doesn't really shine until you consistently crit or figure out how to dual wield two handed weapons in a way that doesn't suck or eat up feats.

[A.A.King]

It isn't a very good combo, 4 is only a .5 bonus per die over rolling (avg 3.5).

There a a few things like Craven that are better damage sources for a Sneak Attacker and for a Power Attacker your best investment is probably going to be in reliable +tohit.


I know it's hardly a world shattering game breaking new thing, I do think it's quite a nice little thing to use when you want to play a different type of rogue. When you want to play more of a physical bully instead of a the agile sneakster.


Just a friendly tip; don't use the formatting of feats for anything other than feats.

It might be a decent combo in crit-fishing builds.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with the friendly tip... It took me a while to realize it wasn't a homebrew

While I get what you mean, I thought that the "What do you do bit" was a sufficient enough difference

[Sian]

figure out how to dual wield two handed weapons in a way that doesn't suck or eat up feats.

Dual wield a twohander and armor spikes / helmet spike / boot blade / something ?

[SciChronic]

Dual wield a twohander and armor spikes / helmet spike / boot blade / something ?

maybe girallon totem for extra hands?

[Necroticplague]

maybe girallon totem for extra hands?

Well, Diopsids actually have this as this as their default fighting style. And to boot, they can ignore DEX requirements for the TWF line.