How is planar binding used in your game?

[RoboEmperor]

I'm still having trouble understanding this spell. I want to use this spell as I like having demonic escorts, but it seems like you can spend a few days casting this spell and spamming enchantment spells to effectively create your own demonic army and have it clear out whatever dungeon you want. Even if you don't abuse the "serve me for a year" stuff, 1 day per caster level is long enough (compared to the several ROUND duration of other summon spells). So like, you're level 10 and you got an outsider to agree to serve you. Then you could spend the next 9 days planar binding and enchanting as many outsiders as you can and on the last day just go dungeon delving with whatever number of outsiders you successfully persuaded, and even if you don't finish the dungeon in a day, you only lose 1 outsider the next day if that outsider hasn't been killed already. I haven't done the math yet but if I use all of my spell slots on planar bindings, magic circles, and enchantment spells, I'm sure I can get 10+ demons by the tenth day.

And don't get me started after you reach level 17 (moment of prescience guarantees 1 successful persuade a day)

So like... are the outsiders summoned via planar binding weak or something? Or are they only as strong as summon monster spells? Or is planar binding so powerful that DMs outright ban it or put a summon limit on it?

So could you people share your experiences with planar binding in your games so I can get some case studies to study and understand this spell?

[Abd al-Azrad]

The various Planar Binding spells are indeed quite spectacularly powerful. Combined with an encyclopedic knowledge of the available outsiders, a list of additional spells (Magic Circle, Dimensional Anchor, Charisma boosters for you and reducers for your bound outsider) and a somewhat lenient DM, you can basically add as many monsters to your roster as you can spare the time, resources and risk. Indeed, some of the more magic-loving DMs basically work on the assumption that Planar Binding means that every arcane caster past a certain level has access to Wishes at will, etc., and build their entire setting around this belief.

My group works off a few assumptions to keep a bit of a lid on this.

First off, your control is not absolute. Planar Binding means adding a new, powerful, unfriendly NPC to the world, with a specific vendetta against the caster. We play up the risk factor heavily, as well as the intellect and resources of the called outsider in question. One can still get away with calling outsiders to their heart's content, but round-by-round, the outsider's actions are dictated by the outsider and serve the outsider's interests first, so long as they fall within the language of the binding. We tend to treat a casting as a plot moment, where things can go wrong, the being in question has a personality, and the task in question needs to be quite specific to prevent creative interpretations of orders.

Second, if the bound outsider participates in combat, it gets its share of XP. It's not a summoned being, it typically does not detract from the caster's available spell slots, so it is treated in all ways like a (temporarily) allied NPC and awarded its rewards for combat performance. This factor, right off, prevents heavy overuse of the spell. You don't want to fill out your roster with called outsiders for every fight, or you'll never get enough XP for your own uses.

Third, vengeance. Unless you treat your bound outsiders well, you create later problems in the form of enemy outsider hit squads. Obviously, the caster can slay the bound outsider near the end of its service to prevent this (and DOES gain XP from killing bound outsiders, so long as they can conceivably fight back). But even doing so affects the caster's reputation among denizens of the various planes. A higher-level wizard who becomes well known for trapping and destroying large swaths of demons will certainly create loads of enemies for him- or herself.

All of this said, one can totally call up armies of outsiders to do his or her dirty work, level dungeons, etc. She won't get much XP for the effort, it takes forever (10 minute casting time + negotiations + wasted days for every time you fail your Charisma check to secure an agreement), she might have to give away large portions of the subsequent treasure to her powerful summoned army to prevent mass revolts and future reprisals, and she might face a hit squad for her efforts anyway.

The spell works about as well as enchanting or dominating military leaders to secure a temporary army of mortals. It serves your immediate needs, it can create powerful concentrations of force. If the DM ignores the in-game and metagame consequences, it's crazy good - but to do so removes all the risk and, frankly, all the potential fun from the spell.

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks for the detailed post! The thing about the outsider sharing XP though... that would definitely make me stay away from that spell or otherwise keep at most 1 outsider, but I see your point!

I see, XP cost is your group's way of controlling planar binding.

[Elkad]

"Oh great and mighty Pit Fiend, grant me a wish"
"You know I'm a devil, and I'll twist the crap out of it, right?"
"Yes, but I desire the power! Surely we can come to an arrangement?"
"Actually we can. Buff the crap out of me, turn me loose for an hour with a promise not to harm you and yours directly or indirectly, and I'll agree to return and follow the intent of your wish as closely as my power allows"
"Sounds good!"

Pit fiend poofs out, in search of everyone he's granted a prior wish to, for some payback... Sure, some will be high level and ready. Teleport away again. Some will be old&feeble, or sleeping, or in a fight...

[RoboEmperor]

"Oh great and mighty Pit Fiend, grant me a wish"
"You know I'm a devil, and I'll twist the crap out of it, right?"
"Yes, but I desire the power! Surely we can come to an arrangement?"
"Actually we can. Buff the crap out of me, turn me loose for an hour with a promise not to harm you and yours directly or indirectly, and I'll agree to return and follow the intent of your wish as closely as my power allows"
"Sounds good!"

Pit fiend poofs out, in search of everyone he's granted a prior wish to, for some payback... Sure, some will be high level and ready. Teleport away again. Some will be old&feeble, or sleeping, or in a fight...

XD

I want the DM to send revenge squads against me. Never a dull moment! Fight til you fall! I originally wanted to endlessly keep enslaving stronger demons via planar binding in order to fight off my old demons who would strike at me while I rest, and if I lose all of my demons in some dungeon then... fun time!

[Psyren]

"Oh great and mighty Pit Fiend, grant me a wish"
"You know I'm a devil, and I'll twist the crap out of it, right?"
"Yes, but I desire the power! Surely we can come to an arrangement?"
"Actually we can. Buff the crap out of me, turn me loose for an hour with a promise not to harm you and yours directly or indirectly, and I'll agree to return and follow the intent of your wish as closely as my power allows"
"Sounds good!"

Pit fiend poofs out, in search of everyone he's granted a prior wish to, for some payback... Sure, some will be high level and ready. Teleport away again. Some will be old&feeble, or sleeping, or in a fight...

This reminds me of that old Twilight Zone story about the button that, when pressed, causes the person who pressed it to be given a large sum of money by a strange being, at the cost of killing someone else in the world that they don't know. An impoverished couple is given the button and, after agonizing for a while, they end up pressing it. Soon after, the entity shows up, gives them the money and collects the button - when they ask it what happens next, the entity replies that pressing the button means it will continue to circulate, and that he can guarantee the next owner will be someone they don't know. (Implying that if that next owner is as selfish as they were, they will be next to die.)

Your Pit Fiend might cooperate now, but it sounds like the next person to make a wish will get the same offer - to buff him up, set him free and let him take his revenge on past wishers, of which you are now one.

[Elkad]

This reminds me of that old Twilight Zone story about the button that, when pressed, causes the person who pressed it to be given a large sum of money by a strange being, at the cost of killing someone else in the world that they don't know. An impoverished couple is given the button and, after agonizing for a while, they end up pressing it. Soon after, the entity shows up, gives them the money and collects the button - when they ask it what happens next, the entity replies that pressing the button means it will continue to circulate, and that he can guarantee the next owner will be someone they don't know. (Implying that if that next owner is as selfish as they were, they will be next to die.)

Your Pit Fiend might cooperate now, but it sounds like the next person to make a wish will get the same offer - to buff him up, set him free and let him take his revenge on past wishers, of which you are now one.

Exactly. And that story is implied heavily to the PCs...


I've also run (1st/2nd edition) games where you couldn't just call a random extra-planar being. You needed a truename, which got you a specific one. So repeated calling got you the same pit fiend every time, who got more and more annoyed at you interrupting his naps, vacations, etc.

Wandering semi-off-topic, I was playing at a gaming club in the late 80s. 18th-ish level, I'm playing a pretty well-optimized Paladin of Osiris with a bunch of Solar powers grafted on. We are in a gigantic fight which had been going for hours.

Another DM wanders in from the next room for a conference with our DM. Apparently his party (lower level, 12th or so) had done everything completely wrong, releasing the big evil instead of sealing it away forever, and was facing a TPK. With no better ideas, their cleric pulls out the percentiles, rolls for Divine Intervention, and turns up the big 00 for success. DM isn't sure how to handle it without either hand-waving their failure away, or hand-waving a win, so he'd come to consult with ours.

Our DM asks who the cleric's deity is.
"Osiris"
Our DM looks at me. "Paladin of Osiris, right?"
"Yessss?"
"Pick up your dice and go save their butts"

So with half my abilities used and a bunch of damage, I got dropped cold into a completely different fight. My "briefing" consisted of "Osiris just popped a gate. Osiris says "Stop the evil, save my loyal servant Joe the Cleric and his friends if you can""
DM parked me in the hall, went in the room, shut the door, collected character sheets descriptions from everyone (unknown to me), and made all the players move away from the table and remain silent.

DM lets me in, said "This is Joe, you appear next to him".
Giant map (most of an 8'x12' table), half of which was on fire. There had to be nearly 100 minis out, demons flying around, summoned creatures, corpses, etc. No idea who Joe's friends are. DM gives me exceedingly brief descriptions of each mini on the map.

"Your move"

I didn't even know who his friends were at first. They were all forbidden to talk until I'd taken my first round of actions.

In the meantime, my own party just lost a member mid-fight, causing them serious problems as well.


I figure a small percentage of the time, a summons/binding/gate is going to go exactly like that. You'll grab someone who was seriously busy. Even if he's friendly, he may upset with the interruption and not in top form.

[OldTrees1]

-snip-
"Your move"

I didn't even know who his friends were at first. They were all forbidden to talk until I'd taken my first round of actions.

In the meantime, my own party just lost a member mid-fight, causing them serious problems as well.

I figure a small percentage of the time, a summons/binding/gate is going to go exactly like that. You'll grab someone who was seriously busy. Even if he's friendly, he may upset with the interruption and not in top form.

At the risk of being off topic, what happened next/how did it end?

[JBarca]

Another way to handle the Binding line is through allies. High level Outsiders are like (excessively long-lived and intelligent) mortals with authority: they have allies, lackeys, bodyguards, and, likely, superiors. If you pull away a Cornugon or some such, who's to say it wasn't in the middle of combat, defending its Pit Fiend general? Vengeance doesn't have to wait. A quick divination of some sort to figure out who stole the being, and, before you're even done with the negotiations, a more powerful friend shows up at ends you.

In a high-powered one shot I ran once, a Malconvoker called up a Solar and, using some excessive buffs to ensure success, effectively gave the command "Be my slave until I release you." Within a few minutes, glowing circles began appearing across the sky. A host of Planetars and Devas, supported by a number of Solars (some advanced into "I'm all but a god, now" territory) Gated themselves and allies in. Cue plenty of Diplomacy rolls, even more Bluff rolls, and a sincere promise to never bind a Celestial general again.

[LTwerewolf]

At the risk of being off topic, what happened next/how did it end?

Indeed, story that needs an ending.

[RoboEmperor]

Another way to handle the Binding line is through allies. High level Outsiders are like (excessively long-lived and intelligent) mortals with authority: they have allies, lackeys, bodyguards, and, likely, superiors. If you pull away a Cornugon or some such, who's to say it wasn't in the middle of combat, defending its Pit Fiend general? Vengeance doesn't have to wait. A quick divination of some sort to figure out who stole the being, and, before you're even done with the negotiations, a more powerful friend shows up at ends you.

In a high-powered one shot I ran once, a Malconvoker called up a Solar and, using some excessive buffs to ensure success, effectively gave the command "Be my slave until I release you." Within a few minutes, glowing circles began appearing across the sky. A host of Planetars and Devas, supported by a number of Solars (some advanced into "I'm all but a god, now" territory) Gated themselves and allies in. Cue plenty of Diplomacy rolls, even more Bluff rolls, and a sincere promise to never bind a Celestial general again.

Problem with this though is that it effectively makes planar binding unusable instead of limiting it or moderating it :(

[JBarca]

Problem with this though is that it effectively makes planar binding unusable instead of limiting it or moderating it :(

Bind weaker Outsiders. Or those about whom no one actually cares. It's severely limiting, yes. But it's a severely powerful spell, otherwise. Not to mention, in a normal game, I wouldn't be so strict about immediate support of armies. In a normal game (at least at my table), the op level is much lower, so auto-successes aren't guaranteed when this sort of thing happens. So I'd be more willing to allow the spell. It's just a case of powerful PCs demanding powerful enemies.

[Divide by Zero]

Bind weaker Outsiders. Or those about whom no one actually cares. It's severely limiting, yes. But it's a severely powerful spell, otherwise. Not to mention, in a normal game, I wouldn't be so strict about immediate support of armies. In a normal game (at least at my table), the op level is much lower, so auto-successes aren't guaranteed when this sort of thing happens. So I'd be more willing to allow the spell. It's just a case of powerful PCs demanding powerful enemies.

Or else just don't abuse it. If you bind that Solar for a Good emergency, it and its allies are probably going to be a lot more understanding. And if a bunch more gate themselves in? Hey, free cavalry!

[atemu1234]

Or else just don't abuse it. If you bind that Solar for a Good emergency, it and its allies are probably going to be a lot more understanding. And if a bunch more gate themselves in? Hey, free cavalry!

Can they choose to stay on their own is a better question.

[JBarca]

Or else just don't abuse it. If you bind that Solar for a Good emergency, it and its allies are probably going to be a lot more understanding. And if a bunch more gate themselves in? Hey, free cavalry!

Oh, absolutely. This "emergency" was effectively "Help, I've killed another angel and my allies (other PCs) have turned on me." I figured a response was necessary.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I feel a common thread in the responses so far, is that the spell is as powerful as the DM allows it to be. It's very much a "Power of Plot" sort of effect.

For basic combat, one or two castings can fill out your battle roster, increasing the APL of your party and thereby decreasing your XP in a fairly balanced way (at least the way we rule the spell).

For more powerful effects, it works pretty much as well as the player can make it work, which means lots of prep time, RP and negotiations in-character with the bound outsiders, and occasionally out-of-character with the DM.

[prufock]

I don't really like the idea of DM fiat just negating a casting of the spell. It's fine to have the bound evil demon show up again later looking for revenge, but to just have angels appear out of nowhere and say "NO" seems to break the point of the spell. If it's too powerful, I'm all for houseruling it (like lowering the HD you can call), but the player should know of the houserule before hand.

Oddly, none of my players has ever used this spell, so there's been no need for a houserule. I plan to use it in an upcoming game playing a Pathfinder summoner, though.

And yes, Elkad definitely needs to finish that story!

[Psyren]

I don't really like the idea of DM fiat just negating a casting of the spell. It's fine to have the bound evil demon show up again later looking for revenge, but to just have angels appear out of nowhere and say "NO" seems to break the point of the spell. If it's too powerful, I'm all for houseruling it (like lowering the HD you can call), but the player should know of the houserule before hand.

There is however a "no"clause built into the spell by RAW - "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." So even if the spell works and you pull something through 100% of the time, the DM decides what a "reasonable command" would be for the creature in question and thus can get you to edit your requests as needed to create drama.

[The Insanity]

Mostly for booty calls.

[Elkad]

At the risk of being off topic, what happened next/how did it end?


Indeed, story that needs an ending.

IIRC, I opened by bouncing my always-on Solar Globe of Invulnerability to 100' radius, which squashed a lot of Walls of Fire the friendlies were toasting in, and Detected Evil for a round trying to sort out the bad guys. Cleric dropped when the monsters went, I burned my emergency Wish (off a ring, last charge) to stand him back up with full health and spells. The big mobile Globe of Invulnerability was a huge help vs the hordes of demons saturating the group with low-level spells. Then I slow-marched toward the BBEG while the friendlies bunched up around me. I'd optimized AC (in 3.5 terms, upwards of AC50, and another +20 if I went full defense), and took half-damage from all melee attacks. The smaller demons tried to zerg us, which wasn't working well for them.

At some point a dual-wielding evil-radiating werewolf appeared next to me as the Holy Avenger Dispel Field disabled his Improved Invisibility. Not wanting to get backstabbed, I whacked him. Hard.
"That was a party member"
"Now he's a corpse. Osiris will sort him out. Or not."

Ended up with me tanking the BBEG (I think it started as a Gorristo before the DM upgraded the crap out of it) with the party clearing adds and/or keeping me healed. When the bad guy ran out of health, he teleported out, which was good enough. Fleeing in the face of Good doesn't get you many more evil followers.

As the party started cleaning up the remaining bits of lesser demons and evil cultists, I got dropped right back into my original party fight. At least Osiris tossed in a Heal on the way through the Gate this time.