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Ditto
2007-03-17, 04:54 AM
Two M&M questions:

1) The super-movement power 'Permeate' allows you to pass through solid objects as part of a move action, with penalties to speed while intangible. Would this power allow a hero to move through a wind wall? An intense, wild wind wall, whipped up by a weather-controller, say, and impassible to characters trying to talk across the boundary normally.

2) What are some effective ways to counter the abilities of a speedster? There's mind control, nullify, gas/darts... but in a tactical situation, these are all rendered somewhat moot. A speedster with four ranks can move 100 mph, or about 900 ft/round. Dash in, punch, dash out, all in the same round. Mind control and Nullify require recognizing a target to be used, and if you hit a speedster with gas or darts, he's a thousand feet away before it starts getting into his system (assuming you even hit with darts). The former two might work with readying actions, I suppose. Thoughts?

Telok
2007-03-17, 09:24 AM
Man, it's been too long since I've played a supers game. I can't comment on the Permeate power, that'll depend on individual GMs and how the powers are working. But I can give some ideas on speeders.

"Look before you leap"
Super speed powers don't give increased perception. Invisible walls, trip wires, and the guy around the corner holding a pipe at head level are good and nasty tricks. He can't outrun what he can't see comming. Suprise him, snipers, hidden explosives, accuracy by volume (lots of mooks), invisible assassins.

"I dare you to step on that"
Glue, oil slicks, and caltrops. Most speedsters are runners or leapers, being ground based can be bad if the ground itself is dangerous. Also spikes, lava, acid, and pressure plates with (fast) scything blade traps are good at slowing people down.

"Fast, shmast. He can't climb worth a dang."
Since most speeder types are ground based use height and terrain aginst them. A multi-level arena with lots of balconies can give climbers, jumpers, acrobats, and fliers easy mobility while requiring a runner to use most of his movement just getting to enemies. Also if the speeder is known to be a problem someone may have set up an area that he can't easily access, like a platform on top of a greased pole or a helicopter.

"Gotcha!"
Nets, sealed room traps, and hostages. Since most speedsters aren't very strong any hit with a decent net will usually tie them up. Sealed room traps work if they're big enough. And hostages (or anything the speedster values) are always a nice dilemma.

Piccamo
2007-03-17, 10:16 AM
1. Wind Walls are not solid objects so I would rule negative on permeate. I always understood that permeate worked by separating and going between the molecules of the object and thats just not an option for wind wall.
2. Telok hit it on the head. Use up their movement getting to enemies. Also remember that Defense cannot be higher than power level for PCs, but attack can be higher than PL for enemies. Also, rely on ranged combat to fight them. Its 10 feet per rank for a range increment and anything can go up to 10 range increments. If you're fighting in an open area ranged v. speedster neither has an advantage; if you're fighting in a room with obstacles the ranged has the advantage.

Ditto
2007-03-17, 03:14 PM
Permeate: We're using the same atoms-fuzz-up logic to permeate. Is there any reason you can't static-fritz like that through air? Would it not be even easier than walls? The wind is making the air more solid, if anyone wants to track that line of thought.

Also, would sprinting through a wind wall at 100 mph stop a speedster?

Excellent suggestions all for the speedster-stopping. Now, some issues that might circumvent that, and specific examples from our campaign.


"Look before you leap"
Super speed powers don't give increased perception. Invisible walls, trip wires, and the guy around the corner holding a pipe at head level are good and nasty tricks. He can't outrun what he can't see comming. Suprise him, snipers, hidden explosives, accuracy by volume (lots of mooks), invisible assassins.
Superspeed *does* give increased perception. In M&M, Quickness is an inherent part of superspeed. (You think you can walk around at 100 mph without *thinking* at 100 mph?) So assassins, pipe at head level any sort of physical attack, aren't going to surprise him. Tripwire, I think, is a great idea. Specifics: This speedster has permeate. (Guessed that yet? :smallsmile:) Trying to hit him physically is tough. Invisible walls are only interesting to him in retrospect. Snipers can't track something moving at 150ft/second. With Rapid Attack, he can hit anyone in a 20ft. radius at once. Or, he might overrun/trip them 'as long as he has more movement to spend' - which means everyone in the room, practically.


"I dare you to step on that"
Glue, oil slicks, and caltrops. Most speedsters are runners or leapers, being ground based can be bad if the ground itself is dangerous. Also spikes, lava, acid, and pressure plates with (fast) scything blade traps are good at slowing people down.
Glue and oil slicks are good. The supermove power 'sure-footed' can help alleviate such concerns as ice/oilslicks. Spikes/lava/acid are good... if you can find lava and acid pits around. Traps with blades are tough - again, by the time he's triggered them, he might be well past.


"Fast, shmast. He can't climb worth a dang."
Since most speeder types are ground based use height and terrain aginst them. A multi-level arena with lots of balconies can give climbers, jumpers, acrobats, and fliers easy mobility while requiring a runner to use most of his movement just getting to enemies. Also if the speeder is known to be a problem someone may have set up an area that he can't easily access, like a platform on top of a greased pole or a helicopter.
Two words: Wall run. Wall run and Water walk are two add-ons no speedster should be without. Platforms aren't *that* big a problem. Also, Jumping is a common enough power possessed by some speedsters. Flying things are a problem.


"Gotcha!"
Nets, sealed room traps, and hostages. Since most speedsters aren't very strong any hit with a decent net will usually tie them up. Sealed room traps work if they're big enough. And hostages (or anything the speedster values) are always a nice dilemma.
Nets -> Permeate. With permeate usually comes Immunity (Suffocation) and in fact does in our case, so gas won't work here. Or the sealing of the room, often enough. Hostages can be recovered in the blink of an eye, I would think. "Haha, Quicksilver, I have Lola at my side, knife to her throat, and there's nothing - (thwip yoink thwip) - hey, where'd she go?"

Pauwel
2007-03-17, 06:19 PM
In regards to the Permeate vs. Wind Wall situation, I'd treat it as the weather controller countering the speedster's Super-Speed power. In other words, the speedster has to win an opposed power check against the weather controller.

As for stopping a speedster in general... the ready action, as you mentioned, is the solution. If he's hard to hit, it can be overcome by using Accurate Attack (through a hero point or otherwise). Hero points to re-roll on top of that, and it shouldn't be that hard to hit the bugger. I'm betting he has a huge Defence +/Toughness - trade-off, so unless the opponent in question is a total pansy, it shouldn't be that hard to at least stun the speedster. Once he's stunned, you'll have a chance to ready an action again.
Of course, the speedster might use a few hero points of his own to recover quickly, but by continually using this strategy his opponent might force him to spend his hero points re-rolling Toughness saves, and with a little luck our fast but unlucky hero might end up being forced to become staggered, and at that point is fate is practically sealed.

Ditto
2007-03-17, 07:49 PM
Countering powers is always confusing when it's not fire vs. water, psychic vs. psychic... in this case, the wind is not directly opposing the speedster's forward movement. Also, I wonder how countering is balanced - for instance, here, Superspeed costs 5 points and has 4 ranks; Weather control is not well defined, but in any event it's 2 points per rank and wind walling/wind blasting, which is only one facet of a wider power. Should it have equal weight with a more expensive, more focused power?

Hitting him isn't difficult because of a high defense bonus so much as it is he's so fast, he's no longer there. Zipzoom, you can't see him.

Jothki
2007-03-17, 10:44 PM
Does Permeate require that you maintain your velocity, or can you change direction in the middle of something? If you can sink through the ground, the Wind Wall would be useless anyway.

Piccamo
2007-03-18, 02:06 AM
Permeate: We're using the same atoms-fuzz-up logic to permeate. Is there any reason you can't static-fritz like that through air? Would it not be even easier than walls? The wind is making the air more solid, if anyone wants to track that line of thought.
The air isn't solid at all though. Its moving at such a rate that it blocks movement through it. Maybe rule that he can move through it, but he is shunted to the end of the wind wall and needs to make a Dex check or Reflex save to avoid falling prone.

Speedsters are affected by the turn based system as much as everyone else. Their turn ends and everyone else gets the chance to act. He's not immune to readied actions or traps. Him being past the trap before its actually set off would be reflected with a reflex save.

An opposed powers check is ranks v. ranks, not power points v. power points. Use the total number of ranks in the power. If this results in the speedster's advantage, so be it.

Another thing you may consider is making Incorporeal enemies who have the ability to turn incorporeal as a free action. He would literally never be able to touch them nor hide from them unless they wanted him to.

Ditto
2007-03-18, 03:17 PM
Bah! I wasn't thinking laterally... walking through the ground would have been the perfect answer.

Yes, I know it's not solid... I'm just trying to sort out what exactly is blocking me so I know how to treat it. 'Blocking', I think, implies a physical barrier. In any event, if it's moving at such a speed that it can block me - well, it isn't. Running all out (400 mph) is definitely faster than hurricane force winds (~100 mph on the very top end).

PnP Fan
2007-03-18, 03:24 PM
The answer to your question depends a lot on which version of MnM you are playing. I'll assume, for my sanity, and yours that you are playing the 2.0 version.

1. Exactly what power is Wind Wall being used to explain? I need to know more before I can do research on this. Though, by the text, I'm thinking that permeate ought to allow him to walk through it.
2. Flight + High Strength/energy blast. A superspeedster moves no faster than any other character with a movement power. Being out of range should not be a concern for physical characters.
3. Typical speedsters run in first. At the end of their turn, "smack". Held actions are the way to go here. Eventually they'll pick up on this and start slowing down to run in with the team.
4. For the sake of mapping your terrain, you may want to use this suggestion my Mastermind found on the web. Basically movement powers, during tactical situations, only at 5 ft per rank of the power, to your base move. So, starting with 30 ft per round, a character with 4 ranks of flight/speed/etc. . . gets 50 feet per round. The idea is that, in the 6 second combat round you've got to make decissions, observe the battlefield, and focus on dodging as much as hitting your opponents enough, that these distractions prevent you from moving to your best ability. That's the flavor text at least, but the basic idea is simply that, it's pretty much impossible to map out a combat with characters that move with the varied speeds as superheroes do.
5 Stop thinking physics. Physics doesn't make any difference. Look at the power description being used. We have a guy in my group that has a really hard time doing this, and has often made inefective characters because he can't differentiate between the two (too many years of playing Marvel and other superhero systems where clever use of powers is rewarded, as opposed to the reward of well-defined powers in MnM).
6. Keep in mind that your superspeedster, if he's built like the sample character, can only do one schtick at a time. If he's going to do that Area Effect Trip/strike attack, then he can't get his full movement in (no use of Speed while he's using that trip attack).


If you post the character build (or pm me), I can do a more detailed analysis of how to take him down.