Binder in Pathfinder

[Xuldarinar]

While I am well aware of the Occultist class, I am curious as to how well the Binder from the Tome of Magic holds up in pathfinder. How does it compare against classes made for the system, and even to it's 'spiritual' successor in the Occultist? Would it be advisable to use the binder in a pathfinder game?

[deuxhero]

While there may be some stuff that works weird when just directly pulled to PF, Binder was always a tier 3 class and well balanced.

[Extra Anchovies]

Heheheh... 'spiritual' successor :smallbiggrin:

The Occultist has 32 spirits, while the Binder has 47, so Binder actually has a bit more versatility (at least it probably does; I'm not too familiar with the Occultist). I'm not sure about power, though.

[Ssalarn]

Power-wise, the Binder is on the weaker end for Pathfinder, struggling to really keep his Tier 3 status. Of course, so is the Occultist sooo... I understand that Alexander Agunas / Radiance House are actually revisiting the Occultist and giving it a facelift to be more on par with the modern game.

Depending on the average system mastery of your group and the adventure you're faced with, the Binder can probably perform adequately, but don't expect to be winning any MVP trophies.

[Psyren]

Heheheh... 'spiritual' successor :smallbiggrin:

The Occultist has 32 spirits, while the Binder has 47, so Binder actually has a bit more versatility (at least it probably does; I'm not too familiar with the Occultist). I'm not sure about power, though.

Actually, if you factor in volume 2, there are more than 60 (http://alharadnd.wikidot.com/occultist-spirits), and we're getting even more in vol. 3.

As for power - Occultist is most certainly more powerful, even factoring in Zceryll on the Binder side. Muse Istago (Su simulacrum), Jayna Warlock (oodles of wizard spells), Loh'moi (eidolon) and Essek Avix (clone yourself), among many others, make sure of that.


Power-wise, the Binder is on the weaker end for Pathfinder, struggling to really keep his Tier 3 status. Of course, so is the Occultist sooo... I understand that Alexander Agunas / Radiance House are actually revisiting the Occultist and giving it a facelift to be more on par with the modern game.

I pegged it at T2 in my handbook even just with volume 1, so it is plenty powerful already. What I think Alex is beefing up are the constellations, which are notoriously bad.

[Novawurmson]

I put together a short conversion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15566649&postcount=13) for the 3.5 binder; however, even with the buffs I gave it, my binder player still struggled to keep up with an optimized party (partially due to a poor mix between player and character).

[Feint's End]

Binder is still t3. The versatility is equally worthwhile as it was in 3.5 so you didn't really lose anything. The skill changes are nice since you get more bang for your buck too. Overall still solid.

With summoning the still get to t2 (potentially .. I never was a big fan of summoning alone getting you there).

Also I disagree with ssalaran. Occultists are high t3 ... maybe on par with inquisitors if played well.

Care to elaborate how they get to t2 though psyren?


I put together a short conversion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15566649&postcount=13) for the 3.5 binder; however, even with the buffs I gave it, my binder player still struggled to keep up with an optimized party (partially due to a poor mix between player and character).

This seems to be more of a player issue. Binder (more so with the fix) is still fine

[Psyren]

Care to elaborate how they get to t2 though psyren?

I did (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGgq3CJYQaeAugHvaaws-ak1ryZzijKou_w1KN0D9HA/pub) :smalltongue: and am still updating it. Just click on any spirit rated purple (and indeed, many of the ones rated blue) and see what they can do. At low levels they are indeed low-mid T3, but the higher you get and the more spirits you can bind, the more exponentially powerful they become, much as an Incarnate eventually reaches T2 through unlocking its chakras.

But if you want a summary - they have action economy shenanigans nearly on par with a Psion (e.g. Demos Kalagos, Essek Avix, and/or Dark Blood, plus Quicken Major Ability and Opportune Ability), powerful minions (SNA IX, Eidolon, a simulacrum of something and a CL20 Gargantuan Animated Object can all be gotten on the same build if you like), they can nearly out-gish a druid (Fey Baraddu's Beast Shape grants magical beast forms unlike the druid's, plus they have many more ways to raise AC and enhance their natural weapons than the druid gets), they get powerful defenses like incorporeal/regeneration/see through supernatural darkness/outright ignoring a harmful effect for 1d4 rounds) and strong save-or-die effects with scaling DCs that all bypass SR (Vandrae, Mare Loviatha, Hexus, Portenta.) They can also craft wondrous items, magic weapons/armor, rods, rings and even constructs. Simply put, there's a lot of directions you can go here, and a handful of those may need the DM to rein them in - hence T2.

[Feint's End]

Oh nice handbook. Haven't seen that one yet. Your summary makes sense. Might need to roll up one of those sometimes soon :D

[Lans]

Does anything get broken if the binder uses the occultist spirits or vice versa?

[Psyren]

Does anything get broken if the binder uses the occultist spirits or vice versa?

Not at all. If you're going to use the Binder spirits on the Occultist, it's helpful to assign them to constellations (or a single constellation) but it's not required.

I would use the Occultist chassis simply because they get more vestiges/spirits much sooner than the Binder does. (The Binder gets multiple vestiges at 8, 14 and 20 respectively; the Occultist gets them at 6, 10 and 14.) For practical purposes as a Binder, you will pretty much never have 4 vestiges in most campaigns, but the Occultist ramps up to 4 very quickly.