Detect Magic is now a lvl 1 spell?

[MadGrady]

I come from playing Pathfinder, so I don't know what they did in 4e, but I was curious as to why Detect Magic was made a level 1 spell, and not left as a cantrip. It just seems strange to me that a wizard (or other magic using class) can't just detect magic.

Isn't that what they do?

Thoughts?

[Daishain]

I suspect they did that so you couldn't march through using it constantly and be warned of all magic traps, magic item wielding enemies, hidden alcoves with magic in them, etc.

[Ferrin33]

I come from playing Pathfinder, so I don't know what they did in 4e, but I was curious as to why Detect Magic was made a level 1 spell, and not left as a cantrip. It just seems strange to me that a wizard (or other magic using class) can't just detect magic.

Isn't that what they do?

Thoughts?

They can cast it as a ritual without spending a spell slot. It's not like the "I see magic everywhere" that warlocks have in 3.5 which makes it a non-choice of when to check for magic.

Edit: I'm aware warlocks can do it now as well if they invest in it with an invocation slot, but that's a fairly hefty price to pay.

[MadGrady]

I suspect they did that so you couldn't march through using it constantly and be warned of all magic traps, magic item wielding enemies, hidden alcoves with magic in them, etc.

This is true. And I assume a wizard of high enough level might pick this as one of their at-will spells.

It was just strange to me, but I hadn't really considered the sometimes game breaking nature of that spell in that aspect.

My group doesn't do dungeon crawls really (our games are more social/political/single combat encounter based) so it never really caused issues before.

My player that is a warlock though did take it as one of their at-will invocations.

[MadGrady]

They can cast it as a ritual without spending a spell slot. It's not like the "I see magic everywhere" that warlocks have in 3.5 which makes it a non-choice of when to check for magic.

And I keep forgetting about rituals. It's a mechanic I'm not used to. Excellent point Ferrin

[Scirocco]

At-will Detect Magic, while not game-breaking, allowed *those* sorts of players to wield their metal detector vision and uncover yet more graves to rob. An opportunity cost is helpful in mitigating that.

[TheOOB]

Whenever players have any sort of at-will information gathering ability it gets real annoying real quick, breaking up the scene with constant "does my *blank* trigger". With rituals you can always be able to use it when needed, but it still has a cost.

[Person_Man]

I would prefer that it be a 1st level non-Ritual spell with a long duration (maybe 8 hours, with Concentration), or to simply abolish it entirely.

If players can just keep it up for a long duration, then using it as a magic metal detector becomes a viable strategy, but you have to expend a real resource to use it.

But clearly they wanted to kill the magic metal detector option. Yet being a Ritual spell with a 10 minute (with Concentration) duration means that players will virtually never cast it unless they need to scan for magic items in a hoard or treasure or they're stuck at a magic door/puzzle/etc and don't mind putting the entire party on hold for 10 minutes to cast it as a ritual. No one is going to prepare Detect Magic and spend a spell slot for it if it only lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration.

So why even have the spell at all? Why screw players who don't have that Ritual, and only provide a marginal benefit to players that do? If you're going to nerf Detect Magic so dramatically, why not just say that magical stuff is easily detected by anyone who inspects it unless its an illusion (ie, secret magic door, floor, invisibility, etc). And then make True Seeing or a Perception or Wisdom check or whatever reveal illusions. What benefit does it add to the game to have magical stuff hidden except for when you have 10 minutes of time to spare?

[Cibulan]

"No one is going to prepare Detect Magic and spend a spell slot for it if it only lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration."

One of my players casts it via slot all the time. I kinda roll my eyes like you but he has done it half a dozen times. He uses the ritual a lot too.

[Ferrin33]

"No one is going to prepare Detect Magic and spend a spell slot for it if it only lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration."

One of my players casts it via slot all the time. I kinda roll my eyes like you but he has done it half a dozen times. He uses the ritual a lot too.

Does it ever pay off?

[Cibulan]

Does it ever pay off? One example that leaps to mind is that he used it on the dwarf statute in the mine in LMoP to see that it was magical to stop the impulsive elf thief from stealing the jeweled eyes. They were being pursued and didn't have time for the ritual and so he saved her from a curse/trap.

[Sartharina]

Does it ever pay off?Yes, whether it responds positive or negative, it still provides valuable information.


I would prefer that it be a 1st level non-Ritual spell with a long duration (maybe 8 hours, with Concentration), or to simply abolish it entirely.

If players can just keep it up for a long duration, then using it as a magic metal detector becomes a viable strategy, but you have to expend a real resource to use it.I think you underestimate just how powerful a magic metal detector is.


But clearly they wanted to kill the magic metal detector option. Yet being a Ritual spell with a 10 minute (with Concentration) duration means that players will virtually never cast it unless they need to scan for magic items in a hoard or treasure or they're stuck at a magic door/puzzle/etc and don't mind putting the entire party on hold for 10 minutes to cast it as a ritual. No one is going to prepare Detect Magic and spend a spell slot for it if it only lasts for 10 minutes with Concentration.And yet, you feel compelled to hold up 10 minutes of your life to make a post. 10 minutes is a Trivial amount of time to wait, while a decent amount of time to get things done in. Cast it during a short rest as a ritual, and it'll probably last until you get to a fight.


So why even have the spell at all? Why screw players who don't have that Ritual, and only provide a marginal benefit to players that do? If you're going to nerf Detect Magic so dramatically, why not just say that magical stuff is easily detected by anyone who inspects it unless its an illusion (ie, secret magic door, floor, invisibility, etc). And then make True Seeing or a Perception or Wisdom check or whatever reveal illusions. What benefit does it add to the game to have magical stuff hidden except for when you have 10 minutes of time to spare?If you don't know how to run magic items, auras, traps, and locations in your game, that's your problem, not Detect Magic's.

[MadGrady]

So why even have the spell at all? Why screw players who don't have that Ritual, and only provide a marginal benefit to players that do? If you're going to nerf Detect Magic so dramatically, why not just say that magical stuff is easily detected by anyone who inspects it unless its an illusion (ie, secret magic door, floor, invisibility, etc). And then make True Seeing or a Perception or Wisdom check or whatever reveal illusions. What benefit does it add to the game to have magical stuff hidden except for when you have 10 minutes of time to spare?

Actually, now that I think about it, I believe magic items are supposed to be slightly conspicuous (better quality, shiny, etc) Since non-magical characters can spend a few hours of their short rest to attune to the item and "study" it and gain all benefits without being able to cast a simple spell.

I think the trapped statue above is a better illustration for the true purpose of this spell. It's all in the roleplaying aspect in my opinion. A wizard shouldn't shirk from suspecting something is a magical trap without testing it (again imo, and alignment stuff and blah blah blah :smallbiggrin:)

I've always found it to be a useful spell, which was nice when it was an at-will ability. But as a DM, I have also experienced from time to time, the pain the a** that is at-will abilities (thinking of Paladins ability to detect evil at will as well)

[Segev]

I don't know about you, but 10 minutes is not all that long when exploring and actively MOVING. It's an eternity when waiting or in a hurry to move on, though. So the 10 min. pause to cast it as a ritual is tedious as all get-out, while the 10 min. it lasts (assuming you cast it at the end of a short rest) is not really all that likely to last you for too long through your exploration of the dungeon. Certainly not if you're traveling rather than dungeoneering.

[MadGrady]

I don't know about you, but 10 minutes is not all that long when exploring and actively MOVING. It's an eternity when waiting or in a hurry to move on, though. So the 10 min. pause to cast it as a ritual is tedious as all get-out, while the 10 min. it lasts (assuming you cast it at the end of a short rest) is not really all that likely to last you for too long through your exploration of the dungeon. Certainly not if you're traveling rather than dungeoneering.

So I guess this leads me to part two of my questions about Detect Magic - how do you guys handle rituals? As a DM, I'm tempted to just say, you cast it as a ritual and move on - the time spent in real life is no different than if they had just used the cantrip version. In a dungeon, I could see rolling a percentage dice for an encounter to break the casting time. Any other solutions/thoughts?

[Segev]

When I am in a game with the groups with which I usually play, while we will gloss over such times OOC, we still will make a note of how much time it takes in terms of what our PCs are experiencing. I find this important, because I get a little annoyed with the notion that PCs are infinitely more patient than players ever would be simply because the people making the PCs' decisions don't have to endure the wait times.

I don't know about you, but I bring a book with me if I expect to be waiting even 5 minutes for something, and not to have anything better to do during that waiting time. Waiting with nothing to do is the slowest way to pass time short of physically agonizing torture (e.g. going to the gym).

Rituals taking 10 min. guarantees that they won't be done casually...unless, yes, the DM and players skim over it and don't think about how long that really is. Or worse, how long it is when it is done umpteen times in a day.

It's especially silly when the durations are 10 min. or less. Spend 10 min. and a few seconds (maybe up to 11-20 min., depending on the base spell's cast time) for 10 min. or less of effect? Really? I get flabbergasted over 3e spells that have 10 min. casting times and durations measured in rounds or minutes, too.

Seriously; imagine it took you 10 min. of preparation to watch 10 min. of TV, or to eat one slice of pizza. People only tend to do this kind of thing when they're doing something truly amazing and non-routine to them for that short period (waiting in line for a roller-coaster, for instance).

I'm sure it happens, and is worth it at times, but the tedium of waiting while it's done compared to the short time it's useful - especially for something that you need to be useful for an event you don't entirely control the timing of - is...questionable.

Though if you're the sort who glosses over the time every time, I could see your party going for 10 min. of exploring, followed by 10 min. of ritual casting to restore the spell, followed by 10 min. of exploring...

[Sartharina]

Well... it usually takes more than 10 minutes for me to make a wall-of-text post, or noncombat post in a PbP game. Or go over my Skyrim mod list to make sure everything's in working order.

It took us almost an hour to try and fail to set up the Order of The Stick Adventure Game at my FLGS.

Maybe this is why Soldiers have proficiency in Gaming Sets?

[Cibulan]

To me it's less 10 minutes of prep for 10 minutes of tv, and more of 10 minutes of prep to make sure we don't die when that crypt opens. Or 10 minutes of prep to find the best treasure out of the stack of the dragon hoard. Etc.

The rewards of a 10 minute ritual spell out weigh tv or pizza. It's like 10 minutes of RL time to increase your monthly income by hundreds of percents. Or 10 minutes to check for breast cancer.

[Daishain]

This would be near pure homebrew, but you know what could be interesting? We know rituals can be learned and taught to/by those with no actual magical training thanks to a certain feat. What if party members with decent mental stats could (with appropriate RP actions taken in the past) learn to assist in rituals they've seen performed on multiple occasions? Shave down the total casting time, and possibly add on some additional effects.

For instance, the party has an overwhelming army of undead on the way, and need to lock down a particularly large area quickly. The cleric has three people assisting them, each with a mental stat of at least 14, who the cleric has previously shown the principles of the Forbiddance ritual. Ritual is cast in five minutes rather than ten (-2.5 minutes per assistant, minimum 5), and the area covered by the spell is 135,000 square feet instead of 40,000 (cumulative +50% per assistant). Alternatively, you might be able to increase the damage caused to chosen creatures (by a lower factor than for area)

Something similar could be used to improve the duration for detect magic, remove its concentration requirement, and/or have it affect everyone involved in the ritual.

[MadGrady]

This would be near pure homebrew, but you know what could be interesting? We know rituals can be learned and taught to/by those with no actual magical training thanks to a certain feat. What if party members with decent mental stats could (with appropriate RP actions taken in the past) learn to assist in rituals they've seen performed on multiple occasions? Shave down the total casting time, and possibly add on some additional effects.

For instance, the party has a need to lock down a particularly large area quickly. The cleric has three people assisting them, each with a mental stat of at least 14, who the cleric has previously shown the principles of the Forbiddance ritual. Ritual is cast in five minutes rather than ten (-2.5 minutes per assistant, minimum 5), and the area covered by the spell is 135,000 square feet instead of 40,000 (cumulative +50% per assistant)

Something similar could be used to improve the duration for detect magic, remove its concentration requirement, and/or have it affect everyone involved in the ritual.

So sort of using the "Help" action to create a circle or group ritual, making it easier to cast, and possibly more powerful?

I assume you mean that each of these helpers has the feat? (just clarifying). If this were the case, as a DM where my players all took a specific feat, for this particular effect, instead of ability score boosts. I would likely allow it. It's such a specific situational thing that it should be easily controlled, and not done every single game, and it was done at the expense of something else.

not a bad idea

EDIT: While I may not agree with the specific details of your effects, I agree with the merit of this particular line of discussion lol

[Daishain]

So sort of using the "Help" action to create a circle or group ritual, making it easier to cast, and possibly more powerful?

I assume you mean that each of these helpers has the feat? (just clarifying). If this were the case, as a DM where my players all took a specific feat, for this particular effect, instead of ability score boosts. I would likely allow it. It's such a specific situational thing that it should be easily controlled, and not done every single game, and it was done at the expense of something else.

not a bad idea

EDIT: While I may not agree with the specific details of your effects, I agree with the merit of this particular line of discussion lol
I had in mind either the feat or a ritual casting class feature of some description. For instance, it would certainly make sense that the kings of ritual casting, Wizards, would be able to pick up the general principles of Forbiddance, even if they normally can't use it on their own.

And yeah, I was mainly just throwing out bonuses. I would be incredibly shocked if everyone agreed with the effects, and would likely choose to adjust them myself before actually trying something like this.

[MadGrady]

For me, if I can get my players to work together as a unit in an endeavor, I generally like to allow it, and encourage it whenever possible. Too often have I been in a group where the "party" was four individuals doing individual things, despite what the other 3 are doing. I think the stories are enhanced through combined teamwork, and creates a single memorable moment for everyone. I actually really like this idea of a group ritual.

[rollingForInit]

Our characters have used it as a ritual. Works fine.

We have sort of a house rule where you can detect arcane magic with arcana, and divine magic with religion, as well. Say that there's a wall that somehow looks suspicious. The Wizard gets to roll Arcana. Perhaps he senses that it's magical, and if he rolls really well, he might detect a hint about what type of magic it is. And sometimes the DM will just decide that someone with a background in magic will sense something that's magical. E.g. "Wizard, you sense that the amulet round the goblin's neck radiates an aura of magic" or something like that.

Using Detect Magic of course allows you to see the magic clearly, and also the school. So that'd make the roll for trying to identify the magical effect much easier.