Will completing the ritual coincide with Belkar's death?

[littlebum2002]

I'm SO glad that it's gotten close enough where we can start to actually pinpoint the exact timing of Belkar's death (sorta)

Looking at the maths here...

According to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene), at the time Xykon teleported to the final gate, Belkar had, at MOST, 32 days to live

According to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html), the ritual will take a "few weeks" to complete.

We can't put TOO much stock into the meaning of the indefinite "few", but in most cases it is assumed to mean "more than two", because otherwise Xykon would have probably said

:xykon: They're likely to get upset if we loiter in the throne room for the couple weeks it will take to complete the rituals.

So, the ritual will take at least 21 days, maybe a few less, maybe a lot more.



This means that, if Xykon immediately started working his way to the gate, he would have to make it there and start the ritual in 11 days in order to be finished in enough time for Belkar to be alive for the completion, which would imply that Belkar would wither die by whatever effect the ritual causes, or by Xkyon himself after he's done. Which should be enough time to clean out a dungeon, but considering he's probably gonna have to fight off the Paladins, and, if they ever show up, the Order, the timing is gonna be tight.

I think it's safe to say that the timing is gonna be SO tight that they're going to inevitably coincide.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that is kind of a natural consequence of how the plot seems to be moving so far. The ritual is possibly one of the last major events that will occur in the story (or at least, near enough that the rest of the story will conclude shortly afterwards), so it makes sense that the limit for Belkar's death is around then. Of course, Belkar could always doe before then, or I could be wrong about when the ritual occurs.

[littlebum2002]

I mean, it's entirely possible that Belkar will die of something else before the final battle, and it seems like that would be lame, but Rich has pulled stunts like that before and made them awesome. For instance, who would have known that a character could have gone through so much development purely through internal monologue?

[Onyavar]

25-n days, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) Where n is "a few" days.

And, well, I can imagine that Xykon has started his ritual by now, yes. Look at it from his position:
The first gate blew up in battle. The second was secured by a spell and he fooled around to get it unlocked. The third blew up in battle again, and Redcloak wasted months of time so the fourth was already destroyed once they got there.

This is his fifth and last chance for ultimate power. Not even the worst monsters and traps are going to keep Xykon away so many days.

[evileeyore]

25-n days, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) Where n is "a few" days.

Xykon TPed out of the desert on Day 20-n of the 49ish day count down.

That leaves 29ish* days for Team Evil to defeat Kragor's Dungeon, reach the gate, and perform the Ritual before Belkar bites it FOREVER!


Sure, I'm willing to bet he dies in the battle to take the Gate from Xykon. It's got roughly the same odds that he dies unraveling Durkula's plans.



* 25ish now.

[Jay R]

To the extent that I have any opinion (very little), it's based on the literary structure more than internal counting.

I don't expect Belkar to die until the final great climactic moment, because the strip is funnier with Belkar in it. He's one of the few who tells jokes for a living.

I also don't expect the ritual to ever be completed. Once it's completed, the plot is pretty much between the Dark One and the established gods, and the Order will be pretty much out of it. Since I expect a happy ending for the Order (or at least for Elan), they should successfully save the world, which means preventing Xykon and Redcloak from completing the ritual.

And then finding a whistle.

[Windscion]

First, Belkar dying does not automatically mean Belkar is out of the strip. Durkon died. Is he out of the strip? Hardly. I expect some curve here, simply because dumping Belkar would seem premature. From what Rich has said, there would seem to be enough storyline to last thru Q4 2016. That doesn't sound like a few weeks, in game.

Secondly, the ritual will not be completed. That would invalidate the oracle's prophecy of a happy ending for Elan, which would be cheating.

[littlebum2002]

First, Belkar dying does not automatically mean Belkar is out of the strip. Durkon died. Is he out of the strip? Hardly. I expect some curve here, simply because dumping Belkar would seem premature. From what Rich has said, there would seem to be enough storyline to last thru Q4 2016. That doesn't sound like a few weeks, in game.

Agree with this part. Maybe Belkar will exist on in the afterlife. But we know Belkar has no more than 25 days left, and I don't THINK Rich expects to make 25 days last the next 2 years, but he's played with time like that before.


Secondly, the ritual will not be completed. That would invalidate the oracle's prophecy of a happy ending for Elan, which would be cheating.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The ritual is going to give the Dark One an upper hand in negotiating equal rights for Goblins. That seems like something Elan would approve of. See his relationship with the extraordinarily evil Thog.

[hopeful1212]

From what Rich has said, there would seem to be enough storyline to last thru Q4 2016. That doesn't sound like a few weeks, in game.

It sounds like less than a few weeks to me. :smallbiggrin:

Remember that the 7 week countdown started in 2009! And we're about halfway through that. And there was that one day (in-comic) that started in 2012 and ended eariler this year.

[evileeyore]

But we know Belkar has no more than 25 days left, and I don't THINK Rich expects to make 25 days last the next 2 years, but he's played with time like that before.
As hopeful2012 has helpfully pointed out... one in comic day can span years of real time.

But I think we should probably stop the speculation at that, discussing that brushes up against the "Thou Shalt Nots" of this message board.

[Windscion]

I wholeheartedly disagree. The ritual is going to give the Dark One an upper hand in negotiating equal rights for Goblins. That seems like something Elan would approve of. See his relationship with the extraordinarily evil Thog.
I dunno if Thog is 'extraordinarily' evil, or just selfish and insensitive to others. Extraordinary evil implies a concious decision to go bad. If you really meant something like, evil and extraordinarily dangerous, yes, he is quite dangerous. And regardless of how he feels about Thog (before Thog tried to kill Roy!), a world where the Dark One has a hold over the gods doesn't sound like a good world to live in. And Elan isn't going to be chill with living a world of evil just because he, personally, is somehow unaffected.

In any case Elan didn't fantasize about adopting Thog as his brother like he did with Roy. And Roy would also approve of equal rights -- but strongly disapprove of the method outlined. At some point, Xykon must go. As I noted elsewhere (Gobbotopia thread), I can see Roy trying to work something out with Redcloak, who has legitimate grievances with both the gods and with the Azurites. I could even see him offering Redcloak the loan of V's services to perform the arcane half of the ritual, but only as a negotiating point to make the gods deal fairly with the demis. Roy already made it clear that he is not pious, so I can totally see him arguing with the pantheons.

[brian 333]

What if Belkar is unraveled by the Snarl as he fights to keep it under control for a wizard and cleric to seal the rupture? A redux of the Kraagor battle would be appropriately foreshadowed by all the events leading to this point, and would result in a redeemed Balkar who ceases to exist and thus cannot be raised.

I might even go so far as to assume the gods once again have to re-draw the world from scratch, with Elan (and Banjo) participating this time, thus allowing Elan to have his 'Happy ending' while the rest of the prophecies come true as well.

[littlebum2002]

I dunno if Thog is 'extraordinarily' evil, or just selfish and insensitive to others. Extraordinary evil implies a concious decision to go bad. If you really meant something like, evil and extraordinarily dangerous, yes, he is quite dangerous. And regardless of how he feels about Thog (before Thog tried to kill Roy!), a world where the Dark One has a hold over the gods doesn't sound like a good world to live in. And Elan isn't going to be chill with living a world of evil just because he, personally, is somehow unaffected.

In any case Elan didn't fantasize about adopting Thog as his brother like he did with Roy. And Roy would also approve of equal rights -- but strongly disapprove of the method outlined. At some point, Xykon must go. As I noted elsewhere (Gobbotopia thread), I can see Roy trying to work something out with Redcloak, who has legitimate grievances with both the gods and with the Azurites. I could even see him offering Redcloak the loan of V's services to perform the arcane half of the ritual, but only as a negotiating point to make the gods deal fairly with the demis. Roy already made it clear that he is not pious, so I can totally see him arguing with the pantheons.

Rich has stated, specifically here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?7133-The-Order-Of-The-Stick-January/page8&p=999854#post999854), that Thog is most certainly Evil. He has committed cold blooded murder numerous times in the strip. While you CAN get a whole lot more Evil than that in D&D (Xykon), it's still really, really bad.

But Elan can look past "Evil" and see that there is still a person inside, and treat them that way. I think the same thing would go for the Goblinoids. If they're just trying to get an equal spot in the world, and not using the Ritual to take over the world, then they are actually on a Good mission. Chaotic Good, of course, but fighting for the rights of innocents is still Good. They're just doing it in a very un-lawful way.

And yes Roy would disapprove of their methods, because Roy is Lawful. But he also would have disapproved of Elan and Thog's friendship. I'd bet, though, that considering Roy's actions in OOPC's, he would support the Goblin's fight for equality, if not their methods for doing so, because again the fight is Good but the method is Chaotic.

The Ritual is not going to help Xykon in any way. In fact, it will take away his Cleric, since he will have no more reason to associate with Xykon. So I don't see how "completing the ritual" has anything to do with "defeating Xykon", unless you ARE Xykon and incorrectly think the ritual is going to make you more powerful.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Agree with this part. Maybe Belkar will exist on in the afterlife. But we know Belkar has no more than 25 days left, and I don't THINK Rich expects to make 25 days last the next 2 years, but he's played with time like that before.

Rich stated in the commentary for NCftPB that if Miko had killed Belkar he probably would've had scenes in the afterlife or something similar, so I think chances are pretty good that if Belkar dies before the comic is over we will be seeing more of him, in some fashion.

[Windscion]

Thog is most certainly Evil...

Roy would disapprove of their methods, because Roy is Lawful. But he also would have disapproved of Elan and Thog's friendship.

The Ritual is not going to help Xykon in any way. In fact, it will take away his Cleric, since he will have no more reason to associate with Xykon. So I don't see how "completing the ritual" has anything to do with "defeating Xykon", unless you ARE Xykon and incorrectly think the ritual is going to make you more powerful.

Yes. Just not 'extraordinarily' so.

Well, Thog worked for Nale who was trying to kill Elan. And as irritating as Roy found Elan to be, he doesn't want Elan killed.

I didn't mean that the ritual would help stop Xykon. I was outlining a scenario where the ritual might go forward without Xykon.

[Steven]

It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable.

I know no-one is saying Thog is lovable but I think this applies. Thog IS extraordinary evil. He kills people without a thought, with a smile on his face and joy in his heart.
The only difference between Thog and Xykon is brains and power. If Thog had Xykon's power he would be WORSE than Xykon.

/derail

[ThatNickGuy]

My prediction?

Belkar dies...but then goes to Hell (or wherever that is) and rains down all sorts of pain and misery upon the three demon guys.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My prediction?

Belkar dies...but then goes to Hell (or wherever that is) and rains down all sorts of pain and misery upon the three demon guys.

I think that is unlikely, as there are all archfiends or of similar power, whereas Belkar would either be reborn as some low-level demon, or still be his wimpy self.

[Jay R]

Rich stated in the commentary for NCftPB that if Miko had killed Belkar he probably would've had scenes in the afterlife or something similar, so I think chances are pretty good that if Belkar dies before the comic is over we will be seeing more of him, in some fashion.

"If".

I'm not saying Belkar can't be shown after dying. Roy certainly was. I just believe that Belkar's death will be at the climax of the story. That just seems like the best literary use of a foreshadowed death.

[Umberhulk]

The story of the OOTS does seem destined to repeat certain plot points of the Order Of The Scribble, so a party member dying in the process of ending the quest does seem appropriate.

[Jay R]

Since so many people have been trying to over-analyze the words of the prophecy, I guess I should go ahead and ask whether or when Belkar will get a birthday cake to savor.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Since so many people have been trying to over-analyze the words of the prophecy, I guess I should go ahead and ask whether or when Belkar will get a birthday cake to savor.

Well, he can bake his own cake, so probably.

[evileeyore]

Well, he can bake his own cake, so probably.
To be fair, as much as I don't like Belkar... I'd totally sit down to any dinner he made.