What are your go-to third party products for Pathfinder?

[EisenKreutzer]

I have been wary of third party publishers for years, especially in D&D. I took this prejudice with me into Pathfinder, but after being introduced to Dreamscarred Press and Kobold Press and their excellent sourcebooks, mechanics and campaign material, I have started to gain an interest in third party resources for my campaigns. I even managed to talk my friend into adding psionics to the campaign setting he is writing right now, and I can't wait to play a psion in his game. I have also included Path of War material in my own campaign setting.

So, what are your go to 3pp's?

And on the flip side, which 3pp's are horribly broken and should be avoided at all costs?

EDIT: Though sleeping with a psion would no doubt be wonderful, I decided to add a "p" to avoid any sexual confusion. Hope none of you psion ladies are disappointed!

[Snowbluff]

Dreamscrarredpress is safe. I've had an altercation with them lately, which I am blowing out of proportion to get Bladecaster up to Awakened Blade's level.

[Feint's End]

Dreamscarred Press belongs to Pf for me and I couldn't imagine playing without it. Other than that I'm generally open to 3rd party though a little wary since some of the stuff is broken or just plain weird.

[The Glyphstone]

There are 3PP besides Dreamscarred Press?:smallbiggrin:

[meemaas]

There are 3PP besides Dreamscarred Press?:smallbiggrin:

This all the way. I adore the dreamscarred press content and use it in as many games as I can.

[Sartharina]

Dreamscarred Press is mandatory to make Pathfinder worth playing.

[Snowbluff]

This, so bad. ^

[Silva Stormrage]

There are 3PP besides Dreamscarred Press?:smallbiggrin:

I really like Radiance House's occultist :smalltongue:

It is a really good remake of the 3.5 Binder

[Jigawatts]

For character options I use Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Pact Magic Unbound. I am currently involved in a stare down with Deep Magic, and have been pondering picking up the Midgard Campaign Setting.

For both adventures and bestiaries, Frog God Games is numero uno. Rappan Athuk and Slumbering Tsar are just sheer awesomeness. And the Tome of Horrors monster books will fill you(r party) with dread.

[Ssalarn]

Like everyone else, Dreamscarred Press is a staple of my games. Ultimate Psionics is as essential as the CRB as far as I'm concerned.
Rogue Genius Games has some cool stuff, particularly their Talented line, the Mosaic Mage, the Death Mage, and a few others.
Rite Publishing and Kobold Press are pretty solid throughout. Rite in particular gets double props for their Ironborn, a much more functional and balanced version of the warforged.
Little Red Goblin Games occasionally has some things that are so quirky they may not sit right in all campaigns, but the Runesmith, King of the Ring, and Tome of Muntitions are all excellent.
Alluria Publishing is absolutely the resource for aquatic adventures. Cerulean Seas Campaign Setting and the books in that line are all excellent, with very high quality art and mechanics.
Legendary Games has some cool stuff, notably their Way of Ki and Meditations of the Ki Mystics. Those are also written by authors who are regular freelancers for Paizo core and adventure path materials.

[EisenKreutzer]

For character options I use Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Pact Magic Unbound. I am currently involved in a stare down with Deep Magic, and have been pondering picking up the Midgard Campaign Setting.

For both adventures and bestiaries, Frog God Games is numero uno. Rappan Athuk and Slumbering Tsar are just sheer awesomeness. And the Tome of Horrors monster books will fill you(r party) with dread.

Pact Magic sounds intriguing! Could you tell me a little about it?

[Ssalarn]

Pact Magic sounds intriguing! Could you tell me a little about it?


It has the Occultist, basically the PF version of the Binder from 3.5's Tome of Magic. And archetypes and other materials supporting those mechanics.

[Nihilarian]

I really like Radiance House's occultist :smalltongue:

It is a really good remake of the 3.5 BinderTo be honest, the numerous dead levels really put me off of the thing.

But yeah, Dreamscarred Press is great. Psionics, ToB and Incarnum are 3 of the best systems in 3.5, and their own additions to the systems are great.

[Jigawatts]

Like everyone else, Dreamscarred Press is a staple of my games. Ultimate Psionics is as essential as the CRB as far as I'm concerned.
Easy to say when you work for them. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

To be honest, the numerous dead levels really put me off of the thing.

It has "dead levels" much in the way that the wizard does - namely, it gets so much from its primary schtick (the vestiges/spirits) that adding more to the class table would have either been superfluous or unbalanced it. Trust me though, there's a lot to love there.

[Alex12]

Aside from the obvious Psionics and Path of War stuff, I've been using Ponyfinder in my most recent campaign, and am loving it. At-will non-magical flight from level 1 is really fun, and has been surprisingly non-game-breaking, at least on my pegasus Sorcerer. Heck, I've been using almost exclusively pony stuff- my bloodline and all the feats I've chosen so far (at level 5) have been from the same book.

[Sartharina]

I like some of Supergenius Game's stuff for casters, actually. Sure, it makes them more powerful, but also more fun and flexible. Powerful character options are great in low-op games - it's one of the reasons I get pissed at a lot of "Oberoni Fallacy!" stuff being tossed around. I'd rather have something that's fun in the low-op and broken in High-op than something that works at higher op levels while being absolutely boring/worthless in low-op.

[Psyren]

Another 3PP I really love that hasn't been mentioned is Adamant's Priest. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest) This is what the Cloistered Cleric and/or Ecclesitheurge should have been.

[Lord_Gareth]

Can I pop in for a moment and say that I'm really touched and honored by the support for DSP? Thanks guys :D It's been an honor to work with (and for) you and to engage in the open beta process.

[Novawurmson]

I picked up Libram of the First (http://paizo.com/products/btpy94sb?Libram-of-the-First-Language-Truename-Magic) recently. It's pretty cool, but the numbers are a little off - everything seems to be on the low side, especially because things seem mostly not to scale with level. It could be I just haven't really dived into their revamped system enough yet.

I've got Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Secrets of Pact Magic, and Villains of Pact Magic (all of Radiance House, though the latter two are 3.5). They're pretty cool, though some of my favorite parts of the 3.5 stuff didn't get carried over (generic spirits in particular). I like their "constellation" system, at the very least.

I think I've mention a couple times that the current party I GM for is an Elan Warlord, a Half Giant Metaforge, a Stalker, and a Tactician (all DSP products). I own practically their whole library, I donated to both their Kickstarters, I playtest their stuff, and I even write a little for them. Yeah, I hit the psionic kool-aid a little hard.

[Psyren]

Can I pop in for a moment and say that I'm really touched and honored by the support for DSP? Thanks guys :D It's been an honor to work with (and for) you and to engage in the open beta process.

You've definitely been a further value-add to an already great crew. :smallsmile:



I've got Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Secrets of Pact Magic, and Villains of Pact Magic (all of Radiance House, though the latter two are 3.5). They're pretty cool, though some of my favorite parts of the 3.5 stuff didn't get carried over (generic spirits in particular). I like their "constellation" system, at the very least.

How do "generic spirits" work? I confess I only picked up their PF stuff.



I think I've mention a couple times that the current party I GM for is an Elan Warlord, a Half Giant Metaforge, a Stalker, and a Tactician (all DSP products). I own practically their whole library, I donated to both their Kickstarters, I playtest their stuff, and I even write a little for them. Yeah, I hit the psionic kool-aid a little hard.

Oh trust me, psionic kool-aid is my middle name :smallbiggrin: I remember that first Kickstarter too.

[Lord_Gareth]

You've definitely been a further value-add to an already great crew. :smallsmile:

[Blushing intensifies]

And to think, not too long ago we were at each other's throats :p

[Snowbluff]

[Blushing intensifies]

And to think, not too long ago we were at each other's throats :p

If you want, I can go for some throats. I work with kitchen knives for a living. :smalltongue:

[Novawurmson]

First of all, HOLY COW AKASHIC MYSTERIES JUST LAUNCHED (http://paizo.com/products/btpy99ri/discuss?Akashic-Mysteries-WorkinProgress). Talk about perfect timing for a thread about 3PP material.

Secondly:


How do "generic spirits" work? I confess I only picked up their PF stuff.

They're low on fluff (usually just a vague theme like fire, metal, the seven deadly sins, etc.) but high on scaling. For example, it might grant a bonus to AC equal to the level of spirit it's bound as, meaning it's relevant at every level.

[Psyren]

And to think, not too long ago we were at each other's throats :p

I never had anything against you. I simply felt you went overboard criticizing Paizo/SKR. But since the latter is gone from the former, that is a discussion for a bygone era.


First of all, HOLY COW AKASHIC MYSTERIES JUST LAUNCHED (http://paizo.com/products/btpy99ri/discuss?Akashic-Mysteries-WorkinProgress). Talk about perfect timing for a thread about 3PP material.

G*ddammit. *grumbles and gets wallet*



They're low on fluff (usually just a vague theme like fire, metal, the seven deadly sins, etc.) but high on scaling. For example, it might grant a bonus to AC equal to the level of spirit it's bound as, meaning it's relevant at every level.

Just a number? Even with the scaling, that's not terribly exciting (and we do get some of that anyway, like Cromwell's AC.) I can see why these didn't make the cut.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I kind of like the Scholar from Tripod Machine, though it might be a tad on the powerful side
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar

Otherwise I live off Dreamscarred Press's Psionics I have yet to try their PoW classes but look interesting.

[Roxxy]

Tome of Horrors. I have every book.
Machinesmith (From Neo-Exodus, sold as a separate PDF) works well for my magitech setting. I like it's flavor better than any other technology based class, in fact.
Talented Classes. Makes the Fighter, Rogue, and Monk so much better.
Heroes of the West (Little Red Goblin Games) - American (Native and Colonial) flavored class and archetypes. Useful, since I focus on North America inspired magitech.

I have Dreamscarred Press's Psionics, and I think they did a very good job with it, but I just can't fit the flavor of psionics into my campaign setting, so I don't get any use out of the books. I waffle a lot about whether to ban it or not, because it is good work that I would kind of like to use, but it feels very jarringly out of place alongside other elements of my setting. I've also never actually run psionic rules before. I'm a good bit more confident with them than with PoW, but I'm still not fully sure of myself.

I own Path of War, but I would ban it at my table. I have no actual problem with the book, I just don't feel familiar enough with its mechanics to run it at this point in time, and I don't have time to read it cover to cover, what with school and the possibility of starting up a game. When I feel more comfortable in my ability to understand its rules, I'll start allowing it.

[Novawurmson]

Checked my pdf: The generic spirits were also (more interestingly) called Anima spirits. They generally gave 5 abilities, all of which scaled or were (usually) inherently useful regardless of level. Here's an example ability from the spirit flames of dancing death:


Blazing Wake: As you move, you leave a hypnotizing trail
of fire. The wake is a 15-foot cone projected behind you. The
wake lasts for 3 rounds in a given square and causes 1d4 points
of fire damage per spirit level to all who enter or are caught in
the flames. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. Activating
or deactivating the wake is a standard action. When binding
a 5th-level or higher spirit, anyone who fails a Will save is also
held still within the fire, as the hold monster spell, for 1 round
per level (with a save allowed on each new round).

The "AC/spirit level" example I gave was kind of boring. A lot of the abilities "powered up" at a certain level like the one listed above.

[Silva Stormrage]

To be honest, the numerous dead levels really put me off of the thing.

But yeah, Dreamscarred Press is great. Psionics, ToB and Incarnum are 3 of the best systems in 3.5, and their own additions to the systems are great.

Agreeing with Psyren, with the number of vestiges it has it has a LUDICRIOUS amount of options each day. It has "Dead Levels" but every 2 levels it gets about 15 new abilities. And even then it gets pact augmentations and bonus feats at every level it doesn't get a new level of vestiges… So it really doesn't have any "Dead" levels.

[Feint's End]

I have Dreamscarred Press's Psionics, and I think they did a very good job with it, but I just can't fit the flavor of psionics into my campaign setting, so I don't get any use out of the books. I waffle a lot about whether to ban it or not, because it is good work that I would kind of like to use, but it feels very jarringly out of place alongside other elements of my setting. I've also never actually run psionic rules before. I'm a good bit more confident with them than with PoW, but I'm still not fully sure of myself.

I own Path of War, but I would ban it at my table. I have no actual problem with the book, I just don't feel familiar enough with its mechanics to run it at this point in time, and I don't have time to read it cover to cover, what with school and the possibility of starting up a game. When I feel more comfortable in my ability to understand its rules, I'll start allowing it.

@psionics: have you considered using the rune magic alternate flavour of the system? It is described quite well in UP for people who don't feel comfortable with the whole crystal/mind flavour of the classes. Might be exactly what you need. If not you can always ask us for some help.

@PoW: path of war is really easy to learn. There are numerous guides out there which can teach you but even on your own you can probably understand the system in about half an hour.

These were not meant to criticise you or your playstyle but rather give you some ideas you maybe haven't thought about yet.

[Roxxy]

@psionics: have you considered using the rune magic alternate flavour of the system? It is described quite well in UP for people who don't feel comfortable with the whole crystal/mind flavour of the classes. Might be exactly what you need. If not you can always ask us for some help.

@PoW: path of war is really easy to learn. There are numerous guides out there which can teach you but even on your own you can probably understand the system in about half an hour.

These were not meant to criticise you or your playstyle but rather give you some ideas you maybe haven't thought about yet.I must have skipped over rune magic. I'll take a look.

Edit: Sorry. I have Unleashed and Expanded softcovers, not Ultimate.

From what I've seen, I do like PoW. I just haven't had time to sit down and understand the system, which I get the feeling might take me a while. I never owned it's 3.5 predecessor, so that may be why it doesn't quite feel intuitive yet.

[Anlashok]

Honestly it's just magic without somatic or material components, can't be that hard to make work for a setting.

[Feint's End]

Honestly it's just magic without somatic or material components, can't be that hard to make work for a setting.

Meh I disagree ... For me psionic has a very distinctive flavour from magic and it's own style of manifesting it's powers.

You might see it as just another form of magic but you should note that it isn't for everybody. Generalising it as being just another Form of magic is therefor kind of ignorant.

[Ssalarn]

Easy to say when you work for them. :smalltongue:
To be fair, I loved DSP's psionics long before I ever signed on to write freelance for them (and I didn't pimp my own product (http://paizo.com/products/btpy99ri?Akashic-Mysteries-WorkinProgress) in the post, even though it's totally my favorite 3pp supplement of all :P)

[pi4t]

In my opinion, Drop Dead Studios has produced some nice things, like a good(!) update to the artificer from 3.5 (called the artisan, not to be confused with certain other ports of the class which kept the original name).

[Gemini476]

Meh I disagree ... For me psionic has a very distinctive flavour from magic and it's own style of manifesting it's powers.

You might see it as just another form of magic but you should note that it isn't for everybody. Generalising it as being just another Form of magic is therefor kind of ignorant.
You could easily refluff dorjes as wands, power stones as scrolls, psicrystals as familiars and power points as some kind of inner pool of arcane power. Very little is changed by doing that, mechanically. Or refluff power points as being granted by a diety that they may further Their will through manifesting various miracles, if you want to take a more Divine bent. Or have it be granted through revering nature, I suppose. I'm not really sure what makes Druidic magic tick in Pathfinder.

Seriously, Psions are basically just Int-based Sorcerers/Oracles with free Stilled and Silent spells as far as mechanics go. And less spells known.

The whole standard crystals and mind over body fluff might not fit with all campaigns, but it's not like savage Barbarian hordes or Lawful Good Paladins or dragonblooded Sorcerers or hippy Druids or monks or gunslingers are all that universal either.

Worst comes to worst, if you haven't included psionics or pact magic or blade magic or whatever in your setting previously and can't just refluff it, just say that the character in question (or their class abilities) hail from a distant land. It's an old excuse, but it works. Unless you've already made a setting so detailed that you couldn't sneak in a hidden monastery or forest commune or traveling martial arts master!

...This post isn't necessarily aimed at you in particular as much as the many people I've seen over the years that staunchly refuse bending the fluff even slightly to make a particular class fit their settings better. After all, it's not like we're talking pre-3.5 Psionics with random Psychic Potential rolls.

[Nihilarian]

It has "dead levels" much in the way that the wizard does - namely, it gets so much from its primary schtick (the vestiges/spirits) that adding more to the class table would have either been superfluous or unbalanced it. Trust me though, there's a lot to love there.I'm fully aware of this, and I still consider it bad design (for the wizard and occultist). Too many dead levels makes a class look boring, especially to a new player. It doesn't help my opinion that the original binder had half as many dead levels.

Edit: On Psionic flavor: I love refluffing Psionics as Ki, and replacing Monk with unarmed Soulknife and Psychic Warrior.

[Snowbluff]

Meh I disagree ... For me psionic has a very distinctive flavour from magic and it's own style of manifesting it's powers.

You might see it as just another form of magic but you should note that it isn't for everybody. Generalising it as being just another Form of magic is therefor kind of ignorant.From a mechanical perspective, it's sorcery with the spell points variant. In game, it functions the same way magic does, with few exceptions. From a balance perspective, it's really just like spells with a few added bonuses in lower OP games.

We should really have a hashtag telling people to check their psionics bias at the door. It's a system like any other, and not a particularly inventive one at that.

[Feint's End]

...This post isn't necessarily aimed at you in particular as much as the many people I've seen over the years that staunchly refuse bending the fluff even slightly to make a particular class fit their settings better. After all, it's not like we're talking pre-3.5 Psionics with random Psychic Potential rolls.

Yeah I'm all for reflavouring something to better fit you campaign (even recommended it before in this very thread).

It only bugs me when the moment psionic comes up it gets the "it's just arcane magic with some gimmicks" response. While this is true, this also holds for a lot of other magic systems or even divine magic. I just haven't heard people say "well divine magic is basically just arcane magic with some other spells" very often since they are accepted as being distinctively different from a fluff perspectice, while psionics doesn't get that treatment.

All that said reflavouring psionics as just being another, more exotic Form of magic is fine and dandy. I just want to point out that it isn't by default.

[Snowbluff]

It only bugs me when the moment psionic comes up it gets the "it's just arcane magic with some gimmicks" response. While this is true, this also holds for a lot of other magic systems or even divine magic. I just haven't heard people say "well divine magic is basically just arcane magic with some other spells."

Divine magic is just slightly different arcane magic.

[Feint's End]

Divine magic is just slightly different arcane magic.

Or is arcane magic just slightly different divine magic? I do get your point but that doesn't mean that they have the same flavour, which is all I am talking about right now.


It's a system like any other, and not a particularly inventive one at that.

Well the basic system isn't .. I agree. Some of the class features/ classes ... I disagree. Cryptic, aegis, vitalist and tactician are all pretty nice and unique mechanics wise.

[Psyren]

I'm fully aware of this, and I still consider it bad design (for the wizard and occultist). Too many dead levels makes a class look boring, especially to a new player. It doesn't help my opinion that the original binder had half as many dead levels.

While it can look sparse, there are benefits too. Less bookkeeping from the class helps both the player and DM focus on the spirits, which is exactly where you want both parties looking due to the very high complexity - just like with a wizard and its spells.

I can see both sides, but even if you conclude that the class could use more features - it works fine as is even so.


Yeah I'm all for reflavouring something to better fit you campaign (even recommended it before in this very thread).

It only bugs me when the moment psionic comes up it gets the "it's just arcane magic with some gimmicks" response. While this is true, this also holds for a lot of other magic systems or even divine magic. I just haven't heard people say "well divine magic is basically just arcane magic with some other spells" very often since they are accepted as being distinctively different from a fluff perspectice, while psionics doesn't get that treatment.

All that said reflavouring psionics as just being another, more exotic Form of magic is fine and dandy. I just want to point out that it isn't by default.

I personally really like the suggestion in UPsi of refluffing it as Runic Magic. You can even, if you want, add a (simple) somatic component to every power and thus make tying up a Psion "Runecaster" mean something.

[Snowbluff]

Or is arcane magic just slightly different divine magic? I do get your point but that doesn't mean that they have the same flavour, which is all I am talking about right now. Most of them are just a form of study or thought in the end.




Well the basic system isn't .. I agree. Some of the class features/ classes ... I disagree. Cryptic, aegis, vitalist and tactician are all pretty nice and unique mechanics wise.
Yeah, but are those features a result of the psionics system, or of the classes themselves (I honestly don't know, I think the aegis is partially)? The Warlord, for example, is an an awesome class regardless of maneuvers. Their recovery mechanic has some pretty sweet options, even if you use it when all of your maneuvers are readied. I give the class design more credit for that rather than the subsystem it's a part of, however awesome that system may be.

[Gemini476]

I'm fully aware of this, and I still consider it bad design (for the wizard and occultist). Too many dead levels makes a class look boring, especially to a new player. It doesn't help my opinion that the original binder had half as many dead levels.

Edit: On Psionic flavor: I love refluffing Psionics as Ki, and replacing Monk with unarmed Soulknife and Psychic Warrior.
Here's a remade table.



Level
Class Feature


1
Bind spirits, constellation aspects


2
1st pact augmentation


3
Bind spirits (2nd level)


4
Bonus feat


5
Bind spirits (3rd level)


6
2nd pact augmentation, bind additional spirit


7
Bind spirits (4th level)


8
Bonus feat


9
Bind spirits (5th level)


10
3rd pact augmentation, bind additional spirit


11
Bind spirits (6th level)


12
Bonus feat


13
Bind spirits (7th level)


14
4th pact augmentation, bind additional spirit


15
Bind spirits (8th level)


16
Bonus feat


17
Bind spirits (9th level)


18
5th pact augmentation, constellation mastery


19
Spirit mastery


20
Bonus feat, true augmentation




Is that any better? It's busier, IMHO, and personally I much prefer the current method of listing maximum spirit level in a separate column.

The same thing goes for something like, say, the Arcanist.


Level
Class Feature


1
Arcane reservoir, arcanist exploit, cantrips, consume spells, 1st level spells (2/day)


2
1st level spells (3/day)


3
Arcanist exploit, 1st level spells (4/day)


4
2nd level spells (2/day)


5
Arcanist exploit, 2nd level spells (3/day)


6
2nd level spells (4/day), 3rd level spells (2/day)


7
Arcanist exploit, 3rd level spells (3/day)


8
3rd level spells (4/day), 4th level spells (2/day)


9
Arcanist exploit, 4th level spells (3/day)


10
4th level spells (4/day), 5th level spells (2/day)


11
Arcanist exploit, greater exploits, 5th level spells (3/day)


12
5th level spells (4/day), 6th level spells (2/day)


13
Arcanist exploit, 6th level spells (3/day)


14
6th level spells (4/day), 7th level spells (2/day)


15
Arcanist exploit, 7th level spells (3/day)


16
7th level spells (4/day), 8th level spells (2/day)


17
Arcanist exploit, 8th level spells (3/day)


18
8th level spells (4/day), 9th level spells (2/day)


19
Arcanist exploit, 9th level spells (3/day)


20
Magical supremacy, 9th level spells (4/day)



Do note that this is without listing spells prepared. That would add one to four items to each row.

As you can see, listing everything in a single row so that you don't need to scan through an entire column of text to find out how many spells you have per day is a lot cleaner. Even if it trips up newbies as to how many class features you actually have, and makes it look a bit more boring. Ease of use is important.

A dead level is only a dead level if you have nothing interesting to look forward to at that level of the class. Like only getting +1 BAB, for instance. Since every level of the Occultist (and the Binder!) actually gives you something mildly interesting, be it a new level of spirits or more bound spirits or extra pact augmentations, I'd really hesitate before calling it a dead level.

There's not a single level of the Occultist that doesn't give you some kind of extra choice, be it daily (pact augmentations, spirits) or permanent (bonus feats, spirit mastery).

[Nihilarian]

Visual Design is important. You want the Special field of every level to be filled in. Putting spells and spirits and the like in their own column is fine - it looks much cleaner that way - but those columns become columns of numbers, distinctly flavorless until you flip to another section of the book to find out what they do. The abilities don't have to be major - giving a small bonus to skills can qualify - but the fewer dead levels it has the more likely it will catch a player's eye.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm a fan of Making Craft Work by Spes Magna games; it's cheap, and ultimately useful, as it makes the obtuse mundane crafting rules feasible to use without taking years of downtime.

[Snowbluff]

Visual Design is important. You want the Special field of every level to be filled in. Putting spells and spirits and the like in their own column is fine - it looks much cleaner that way - but those columns become columns of numbers, distinctly flavorless until you flip to another section of the book to find out what they do. The abilities don't have to be major - giving a small bonus to skills can qualify - but the fewer dead levels it has the more likely it will catch a player's eye.This is pretty much the basis behind the dead level myth.

[Psyren]

This is pretty much the basis behind the dead level myth.

How does it go again? "The Monk gets something exciting every level?" :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

How does it go again? "The Monk gets something exciting every level?" :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, there's that.

1) "Monks are the best class beause they git stuff."

2) "casters are the worsts because they only get spellz."

3) Pathfinder didn't fill all of the "dead levels." I just hit 9 on the oracle, and I didn't get anything but spells. D:

4) DnD didn't do it with that stupid article, either. As below, minor point bonuses don't matter. If you want good advice from WotC, read the gestalt suggestions on the SRD. Those weren't half bad.

How I view it is that if you are making some sort of choice at a level, I don't consider it dead. Feats, skill tricks, spells (levels or know), maneuvers, pet options (familiars, eidolons, animal companions, etc), rage powers and the like (belgh). Of course, I don't think there shouldn't be more class features, I just to be making decisions about my character as I level.

[Gemini476]

How does it go again? "The Monk gets something exciting every level?" :smallbiggrin:


The monk is the only other (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

Also from that article:

The devoted spellcasting classes, which is to say the spellcasting classes that gain new spells per day or spells known every level, can be said to gain special abilities each time they advance, especially the sorcerer and wizard. This is less true for the cleric and druid, who merely gain additional spells per day at every even-numbered level of the same repertoire they could already cast. The dead level abilities presented in this article keep these spell progressions in mind, so that the least significant abilities have been granted to sorcerers and wizards.

EDIT: Oh hey, the second article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x)even has this.

Many of you expressed that certain existing class abilities should be considered dead levels, due to their virtually nonexistent or highly obscure usage. *Cough* slow fall trap sense *Cough*. I hear you, but that was not for me to decide. A poll was conducted asking people if they "really need a special ability at every level". This was largely a yes/no split, although the "yes" votes did prevail in the end. Almost everybody agreed that something needs to be done about the dead levels of certain core classes, especially when a prestige class that grants +1 level of spellcasting at every level (in addition to special abilities) is clearly more appealing. Fingers wagged at the sorcerer primarily and the cleric to a lesser extent.