Intellect Devourer Usage [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MaxWilson

2014-10-15, 06:28 PM

This thread is for anything you want to say about Intellect Devourers: tactics they (should) employ, tactics PCs use against them, opinions on how they are overpowered/not a big deal/etc.

My take:

The Intellect Devourer (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/MM_IntellectDevourer.pdf) is a really strange beastie. It's a CR 2 creature made by illithids from thrall brains. It has a 10'-range psychic attack (Int Save) which does minor damage (2d10 psychic) and has a unique additional effect: unless the target rolls less than or equal to the his own INT on 3d6, its INT is permanently reduced to 0 (barring Greater Restoration or similar) and it is permanently stunned.

Furthermore, the Intellect Devourer has an additional 5'-range ability to teleport itself into the brain of any incapacitated humanoid, permanently assuming control of that humanoid, apparently including spellcasting. (Text says the ID "knows" any "spells or languages" the target knew; while it does not explicitly mention spell slots, it's hard to imagine what else this text could mean.) At that point, the original target is pretty much permanently dead barring 9th level magic.

Intellect Devourers themselves are pretty weak and fragile, and I don't think they have any particular stealth skills to speak of besides possession [Edit: I was wrong, they have Stealth +4 too], but since they don't lose their abilities when inside of a humanoid, these guys currently seem to pretty much the most dangerous assassins in the PHB to me right now. Any old palace guard could have an Intellect Devourer inside, and when he gets a moment alone with the king, bam! the king's brain is eaten and the illithids now control the kingdom. Seriously, these guys scare me more than the Tarrasque--incidentally one of these guys has a pretty fair chance to perma-stun the Tarrasque in one-on-one combat.

I've heard other people say these guys aren't a big deal due to shove/push, and how even a Sorcerer can manage to "lock one down in melee combat" long enough for everybody else to deal with them. I don't really understand how you could "lock down" an ID using melee combat, and the only thing I can think of where shove would help is if you shove it away and run away in the opposite direction... but that requires you to have a 5' movement advantage over the ID, which only Wild Elves using Longstrider/Mobile feat have. So basically, I don't see how shoving it helps at all.

I would never use these CR 2 beasties on a level 2 party unless I was prepared for a TPK. That said, I think they are awesome and I want to know more about how mind flayers make them and use them, and what role they play in illithid society, and how much they cost, and what they eat and how they behave. I want an "Ecology of the Intellect Devourer" splat-book. :)

What's your experience with Intellect Devourers?

Shining Wrath

2014-10-15, 07:07 PM

Their stun and occupy skull actions have a range of 10' and 5', respectively. They have ~21 HP.

The stun does 3D6 psychic damage as well as reducing intelligence to zero.

The ID cannot remain in the skull of a person with zero HP.

The ID is intelligent and does not want to die.

What this means is that the ID has to burst from hiding, attack a person of low intelligence, move into their skull, and then use their body to defeat the rest of the party.

If the party is of low level, the chances go up that the stun does enough damage that it drops the target to zero HP (there is NO indication that an ID knows if you are a few HP down), and then the ID has no place to hide. Or perhaps the stun reduces the target to very few HP, and the first round of combat the ID is ejected.

Assuming the ID targets a melee type, and the party is balanced between casters and melee, it's going to be eating 2 first level spells each round it is not in a skull, even with a low level party.

Scenario the first (ID victory)
R1: ID achieves surprise
R1: ID stuns melee person
R2: ID wins initiative
R2: ID occupies melee person skull, destroying the brain
R2: Rest of party goes "Where'd it go"
R3: ID stuns another party member
R3: ID occupies another skull
R3: Rest of party realizes there's a problem here, attacks new host
R4-N: ID, in second host, destroys casters using physical combat

Scenario the second (ID dies)
R1: ID achieves surprise
R1: ID stuns melee person
R2: ID does not win initiative
R2: Wizard hits ID with "Magic Missile" for 8 of 21 HP
R2: ID occupies skull
R2: rest of party realizes where the ID went, attack host
R2: host was low on HP, one hit drops host to zero HP and ID is ejected
R3: Wizard hits ID with "Magic Missile" for another 8 HP
R3: ID stuns one of the other two party members
R3: The remaining party member scores a hit on the ID for 5 HP. ID dies

Scenario the third (ID dies)
R1: ID achieves surprise
R1: ID stuns melee person
R1: Melee person drops to zero HP - ID has no where to hide
R2: ID takes 2 or 3 attacks, stuns one person
R3: Depending on initiative, ID takes 0, 1, or 2 attacks before occupying skull of second victim
R3: At this point the ID has taken 2-5 attacks. It takes perhaps 3 successful attacks to kill the ID, and the Wizard ain't missing with his Magic Missiles. The odds are pretty good the ID never gets inside the skull

In scenario #2 the party loses one member, in #3 they lose no one (although it's unclear how long it takes the stunned person to stop having a zero INT).

All these scenarios grant the ID a surprise round.

So, if you're an intelligent monster that doesn't want to die, you're going to trail the party until you not only gain surprise, but they are busy doing something else, like sleeping.

MaxWilson

2014-10-15, 07:34 PM

This is just my opinion, but I don't think that's quite what I'd do if I were an ID who didn't want to die.

Rule #1: the best surprise is a humanoid body. A peasant works fine, but in the Underdark you might have to settle for a lone duergar or something.
Rule #2: 40' move is good. If you start eating Magic Missiles, Dash away/around a corner.
Rule #3: don't occupy bodies pointlessly.

Combine these two rules and a likely outcome for your hypothetical Magic Missile-packing party is "one perma-stunned melee type and one fled Intellect Devourer who may still be lurking around a corner somewhere".

Also note that you are neglecting the ID's multi-attack on surprise round and subsequent rounds--this can be used to attack the wizard while you devour someone else's intellect. That leads to the following modifications to your scenario:

Scenario the third (ID dies)
R1: ID achieves surprise
R1: ID attacks wizard for 7 points of damage (with 60-75% probability for AC 13-10) and also stuns melee person
R1: Melee person drops to zero HP - ID has no where to hide
R2: ID takes 2 or 3 attacks depending on initiative, stuns another person (maybe) and finishes killing wizard
R3: Depending on initiative, ID takes 0 or 1 attacks before occupying skull of second victim
R3: At this point the ID has taken 2-4 attacks. It takes perhaps 3 successful attacks to kill the ID, and the Wizard didn't miss with his Magic Missiles if he won initiative before dying. The odds are pretty good the ID never gets inside the skull

The Intellect Devourer is still being foolish to take on 4 humanoids at once (maybe its mission is time-sensitive?), but it's got a pretty good chance at a TPK by removing the wizard from the equation. Is this a win for the ID? Depends on its mission. It's a loss for the party though.

I agree with your overall point though, which is that the ID should play it smart and stack the deck in its own favor. (PCs should do the same, constantly.)

In scenario #2 the party loses one member, in #3 they lose no one (although it's unclear how long it takes the stunned person to stop having a zero INT).

This is a pretty crucial point. As I read it, the perma-stun lasts until something like Greater Restoration restores your INT. Your intellect has been "devoured" and you're basically a permanent mental cripple (like Delum Thord in /House of Chains/). If you read the INT as coming back naturally after 10 minutes or something then yeah, IDs are much less of a threat. It's the difference between losing 3 out of 4 characters vs. losing 0. And from the ID's perspective, it's the difference between softening up a target for later Body Thiefing, which makes "run away" a viable option, vs. "run away" being a true defeat which means you accomplished nothing.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-15, 08:21 PM

This is just my opinion, but I don't think that's quite what I'd do if I were an ID who didn't want to die.

Rule #1: the best surprise is a humanoid body. A peasant works fine, but in the Underdark you might have to settle for a lone duergar or something.
Rule #2: 40' move is good. If you start eating Magic Missiles, Dash away/around a corner.
Rule #3: don't occupy bodies pointlessly.

Combine these two rules and a likely outcome for your hypothetical Magic Missile-packing party is "one perma-stunned melee type and one fled Intellect Devourer who may still be lurking around a corner somewhere".

Also note that you are neglecting the ID's multi-attack on surprise round and subsequent rounds--this can be used to attack the wizard while you devour someone else's intellect. That leads to the following modifications to your scenario:

Scenario the third (ID dies)
R1: ID achieves surprise
R1: ID attacks wizard for 7 points of damage (with 60-75% probability for AC 13-10) and also stuns melee person
R1: Melee person drops to zero HP - ID has no where to hide
R2: ID takes 2 or 3 attacks depending on initiative, stuns another person (maybe) and finishes killing wizard
R3: Depending on initiative, ID takes 0 or 1 attacks before occupying skull of second victim
R3: At this point the ID has taken 2-4 attacks. It takes perhaps 3 successful attacks to kill the ID, and the Wizard didn't miss with his Magic Missiles if he won initiative before dying. The odds are pretty good the ID never gets inside the skull

The Intellect Devourer is still being foolish to take on 4 humanoids at once (maybe its mission is time-sensitive?), but it's got a pretty good chance at a TPK by removing the wizard from the equation. Is this a win for the ID? Depends on its mission. It's a loss for the party though.

I agree with your overall point though, which is that the ID should play it smart and stack the deck in its own favor. (PCs should do the same, constantly.)

This is a pretty crucial point. As I read it, the perma-stun lasts until something like Greater Restoration restores your INT. Your intellect has been "devoured" and you're basically a permanent mental cripple (like Delum Thord in /House of Chains/). If you read the INT as coming back naturally after 10 minutes or something then yeah, IDs are much less of a threat. It's the difference between losing 3 out of 4 characters vs. losing 0. And from the ID's perspective, it's the difference between softening up a target for later Body Thiefing, which makes "run away" a viable option, vs. "run away" being a true defeat which means you accomplished nothing.

If the ID is 5' from the Wizard to claw at him, the ID may not be 5' away from the person whose skull it wants to occupy. Parties don't usually bunch up like that.

I still hold that the ID tries to pick its moment, and I think we agree that the odds are against it living to tell the tale if it attacks a 4 person party.

MaxWilson

2014-10-15, 09:10 PM

In 5E you can split your movement, so the wizard could be up to 50' away from the barb and this would still work. 30' or 40' would be better though unless the devourer has already infiltrated the party via humanoid shell.

TheDeadlyShoe

2014-10-15, 09:26 PM

My personal preference on employing IDs is as something that happens 'off screen' (ideally as a result of player actions) to an NPC the players have already met. The NPC should then try to lure them or point them into the Illithid hands somehow.

My ideally hilarious reveal is if the party is buffing up with Protection from Evil and the NPC falls over dead and the ID pops out.

There are spells which are useful against the possibility of IDs. Mind Blank and Death Ward can protect directly against the attack and the body thief, respectively. Enhance Ability (intelligence) or a headband of intellect can provide enough INT to give a good save AND protect against the INT drain effect.

At that point, the original target is pretty much permanently dead barring 9th level magic.
That's not true. There's lower level resurrections that restore missing body parts, though I cant recall the name off hand.

I would never use these CR 2 beasties on a level 2 party unless I was prepared for a TPK.
There's almost no way you will TPK at level 2 against an ID unless a surprise round is involved. Even if it wins initiative and manages to incapacitate a player in the first round, the remaining PCs have 3 actions to down 21 hp or do some sort of crowd control. EVen if the ID hops into the skull of the downed player next round, that player is already significantly injured by the psychic blast and will go down pretty easily.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-15, 10:36 PM

That's not true. There's lower level resurrections that restore missing body parts, though I cant recall the name off hand.

The text for the ID specifically says it requires a wish to restore the brain, IIRC. That said, I believe we can all envision/design scenarios where an ID provides, if nothing else, an extremely painful thorn in the side of an adventuring group. Its ability to eat an incapacitated target's brain is a staggering advantage. It can perfectly impersonate the target, and can do it while the target is asleep (or unconscious for any reason) to be sure it works.

I believe in the past, DMs have been encouraged not to use the ID on players because it turns into The Thing pretty quick. A cruel DM might not even let someone know their character had been eaten by an ID, letting them go on behaving as normal until a crucial moment. Most DMs won't do this, so I don't see the creature as anything but a narrative device.

SaintRidley

2014-10-15, 10:44 PM

I believe in the past, DMs have been encouraged not to use the ID on players because it turns into The Thing pretty quick. A cruel DM might not even let someone know their character had been eaten by an ID, letting them go on behaving as normal until a crucial moment. Most DMs won't do this, so I don't see the creature as anything but a narrative device.

If by cruel you mean awesome, I agree.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 11:08 AM

You're right, seventh level magic (Resurrection) is sufficient. There is no language in the stat block saying that only a Wish can restore the brain, only a notation that if Wish restores the brain while possession is occurring, the ID is expelled.

I don't think "unlikely to result in TPK without a surprise round" is the standard I'd want to use for picking monsters, especially for a creature which does have plenty of ways to generate surprise (and the intelligence to use them). Even a Deadly encounter is only supposed to have "some chance" of being lethal for "one or more characters," not "all characters."

So far I haven't seen any anti-ID tactics besides "kill it, quick!" which doesn't work so well if the ID is non-obvious, e.g. hiding in the brain of one of the three quaggoths attacking you.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 12:09 PM

So far I haven't seen any anti-ID tactics besides "kill it, quick!" which doesn't work so well if the ID is non-obvious, e.g. hiding in the brain of one of the three quaggoths attacking you.

Presumably protection from evil would prevent it from eating brains, since that spell expels it. I can see "quick, cast that or let's go find an artifact that does" being a reasonable response to the ID.

It's rather specific, but a sentinel eldritch knight can 1v1 the thing. That requires variant human, though to get the feat before 4.

Its strength score is low, so a druid might lock it down with entangle.

A monk might be okay with stunning fists if he gets the drop on it.

Getting the drop on this thing, if played intelligently, is going to be hard though. Shove + grapple/net might keep it from eating someone if your team wins initiative.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 12:33 PM

It's rather specific, but a sentinel eldritch knight can 1v1 the thing. That requires variant human, though to get the feat before 4. *snip* Getting the drop on this thing, if played intelligently, is going to be hard though. Shove + grapple/net might keep it from eating someone if your team wins initiative.

Tell me more about sentinel eldritch knight--is the plan just to melee the thing while being largely immune to Devour Intellect due to high Int? Or are you going to Fire Bolt it to death to avoid its weapon resistance?

I don't actually see the point of shove + grapple/net unless you're grappling with someone with good Int saves. Remember that Devour Intellect has a 10' range. (Oddly, nets always attack with disadvantage unless you have Crossbow Expert or are heavily obscured/etc.)

I agree that the "played intelligently" is the key point. If the Intellect Devourer just rushes in to melee, it will die like any other squishy monster. It's a super-spy, not a super-thug--and it's well-aware of that fact.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 12:41 PM

Tell me more about sentinel eldritch knight--is the plan just to melee the thing while being largely immune to Devour Intellect due to high Int? Or are you going to Fire Bolt it to death?

I don't actually see the point of shove + grapple/net unless you're grappling with someone with good Int saves. Remember that Devour Intellect has a 10' range. (Oddly, nets always attack with disadvantage unless you have Crossbow Expert or are heavily obscured/etc.)

EK should have high enough int to avoid its effect (has to beat his int score with 3d6 to incapacitate him after he fails a save, unlikely for 14+). Sentinel would let him freeze it in place with his reaction every time it tries to run away / disengage (assuming the AOO hits, which is reasonably likely). He could also try to grapple it.

The basic idea is to have the character who can deal with the thing hold it still while everyone else beats on it. But it depends on party composition and winning initiative either way.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 01:15 PM

EK should have high enough int to avoid its effect (has to beat his int score with 3d6 to incapacitate him after he fails a save, unlikely for 14+). Sentinel would let him freeze it in place with his reaction every time it tries to run away / disengage (assuming the AOO hits, which is reasonably likely). He could also try to grapple it.

The basic idea is to have the character who can deal with the thing hold it still while everyone else beats on it. But it depends on party composition and winning initiative either way.

I agree that this would likely work to prevent a TPK. I'm wondering about a larger issue though: when wandering around in the Underdark, what tactical doctrine and/or build should a party adopt to prevent ID casualties when any humanoid you meet could be an ID? Assume that the ID is played intelligently.

I'd say, "Conducts all conversations at 30' range, no matter how innocuous the creature seems to be." Also, "have a Paladin sense evil/aberrations/etc. any time something suspicious occurs, including someone trying to initiate conversation with you." "Have a fighter with Sharpshooter take the Alert feat and give him standing orders to kill anything suspicious with extreme prejudice." "Always travel sneakily under Pass Without Trace if you can manage it." "Scout ahead with summoned creatures." "Run away a lot."

I'm not sure all of these things would work, and the bits that do work, work only because you're expecting danger in the Underdark. Against an Intellect Devourer or three in a town you'd be pretty much helpless to prevent the initial strike, so you better just hope you're not the first target. That's really all I've got though: paranoia/detection/response.

obryn

2014-10-16, 01:20 PM

Beware Intellect Devourers working in hunting packs.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 01:22 PM

paranoia/detection/response.

Basically. It's a different kind of game when you know the baddies can lethaly target your low saves. Unless your entire party is 14+ lucky halfling monks, there's always that potential. It's probably why alert is considered such a good feat.

EvilAnagram

2014-10-16, 02:10 PM

Beware Intellect Devourers working in hunting packs.

That's the thing about these kinds of monsters. Any Warhammer player will tell you that a 2+ save won't help you when you're facing forty shots. Similarly, Save or X abilities are phenomenally more powerful when multiple monsters can use them. It falls to the DM not to use them in that way.

Besides, that's just a terrible misuse of a cool creature.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 02:17 PM

That's the thing about these kinds of monsters. Any Warhammer player will tell you that a 2+ save won't help you when you're facing forty shots

Might be a good time to whip out conjure woodland creatures: 8 pixies casting confusion.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 02:23 PM

That's the thing about these kinds of monsters. Any Warhammer player will tell you that a 2+ save won't help you when you're facing forty shots. Similarly, Save or X abilities are phenomenally more powerful when multiple monsters can use them. It falls to the DM not to use them in that way.

Besides, that's just a terrible misuse of a cool creature.

Is it a misuse though? It depends upon how easy they are for mind flayers to create. If they're resource-intensive investments (created only from the brains of genius creatures with INT 16+) used for spying, then yes, they shouldn't come in packs. If they're commonplace footsoldiers easily created from the brains of thralls that illithids don't feel like eating, they absolutely should come in packs.

D&D 5E's Monstrous Manual tells you nothing about creature ecology, prevalence, or society, so it's really hard to say whether it's wrong for Intellect Devourers to come in packs or not. (I guess you could look it up in the 2nd edition Complete Psionicist's Handbook where they originated; I think group size was probably 1-2 but I could be misremembering.) This is one of my beefs with 5E but hopefully splatbooks will fix it eventually.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 02:34 PM

Is it a misuse though? It depends upon how easy they are for mind flayers to create. If they're resource-intensive investments (created only from the brains of genius creatures with INT 16+) used for spying, then yes, they shouldn't come in packs. If they're commonplace footsoldiers easily created from the brains of thralls that illithids don't feel like eating, they absolutely should come in packs.

D&D 5E's Monstrous Manual tells you nothing about creature ecology, prevalence, or society, so it's really hard to say whether it's wrong for Intellect Devourers to come in packs or not. (I guess you could look it up in the 2nd edition Complete Psionicist's Handbook where they originated; I think group size was probably 1-2 but I could be misremembering.) This is one of my beefs with 5E but hopefully splatbooks will fix it eventually.

That's a good point. If foot soldiers bring save-or-die SLA's with them, guess halfling monk becomes tier 1?

EvilAnagram

2014-10-16, 02:36 PM

Is it a misuse though?
Yes.

It's a misuse on RP terms because it relies on Illithids giving up large numbers of an important resource (intelligent brains) both to create them and feed them.

It's a misuse in terms of balance because it's manipulating the challenge rating to intentionally try to kill players who don't have any opportunity to defend themselves.

It's a misuse in flavor terms because you're turning a perfectly good horror creature / spy into a pack of overpowered mooks.

obryn

2014-10-16, 02:44 PM

It's a misuse in terms of balance because it's manipulating the challenge rating to intentionally try to kill players who don't have any opportunity to defend themselves.
I take issue with this, here. It simply shouldn't happen with a functional challenge rating system.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-16, 02:46 PM

The text for the ID specifically says it requires a wish to restore the brain, IIRC. That said, I believe we can all envision/design scenarios where an ID provides, if nothing else, an extremely painful thorn in the side of an adventuring group. Its ability to eat an incapacitated target's brain is a staggering advantage. It can perfectly impersonate the target, and can do it while the target is asleep (or unconscious for any reason) to be sure it works.

I believe in the past, DMs have been encouraged not to use the ID on players because it turns into The Thing pretty quick. A cruel DM might not even let someone know their character had been eaten by an ID, letting them go on behaving as normal until a crucial moment. Most DMs won't do this, so I don't see the creature as anything but a narrative device.

This has been debated elsewhere. The text for ID mentions Wish as an example, not as a requirement.

The 7th level Resurrection spell works nicely, as it explicitly works on tiny fragments of a body, e.g., it mentions the remains of a person hit with Disintegrate. Bards and Clerics get it directly, Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards can no-risk cast it using Wish.

Easy_Lee

2014-10-16, 02:48 PM

This has been debated elsewhere. The text for ID mentions Wish as an example, not as a requirement.

The 7th level Resurrection spell works nicely, as it explicitly works on tiny fragments of a body, e.g., it mentions the remains of a person hit with Disintegrate. Bards and Clerics get it directly, Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards can no-risk cast it using Wish.

Gotcha. Still pretty extreme for CR2.

EvilAnagram

2014-10-16, 03:02 PM

I take issue with this, here. It simply shouldn't happen with a functional challenge rating system.
You're right. It shouldn't happen in a functional CR system, but 5e's CR system has some pretty glaring holes.

That said, now that I think of it, four level six characters would be able to face three IDs so long as one or two of them has Protection from Evil and Good. It will still be a rough fight, and you could still lose someone, but it's not impossible.

MadGrady

2014-10-16, 03:11 PM

You're right. It shouldn't happen in a functional CR system, but 5e's CR system has some pretty glaring holes.

Man, you have that right. Some of the things I look at in the monster manual just make no sense CR wise.

It's why I prefer more fluid encounters, vs using an encounter builder. I can't trust the encounter builder to give me an accurate CR

EvilAnagram

2014-10-16, 03:14 PM

Man, you have that right. Some of the things I look at in the monster manual just make no sense CR wise.

It's why I prefer more fluid encounters, vs using an encounter builder. I can't trust the encounter builder to give me an accurate CR

Encounter Builder does alright, but you have to remember to balance out the monster's powers with your players' abilities. Don't run an ID rush against a party that can't handle it.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 03:35 PM

You're right. It shouldn't happen in a functional CR system, but 5e's CR system has some pretty glaring holes.

That said, now that I think of it, four level six characters would be able to face three IDs so long as one or two of them has Protection from Evil and Good. It will still be a rough fight, and you could still lose someone, but it's not impossible.

Agreed. But those same four six level characters would wipe the floor with any other CR 2 creatures, like Quaggoths and Ogres.

I dislike CR as a concept and so far am trying to ignore it (it doesn't correlate well with difficulty at all), but asmor.com's random encounter generator is just so intriguing as an idea generator that I find myself paying attention to CR anyway inadvertently.

Edit: oops, I should have read the whole thread first. I wholeheartedly agree with both EvilAnagram and MadBrady. :)

archaeo

2014-10-16, 03:40 PM

5e's CR system has some pretty glaring holes.

Is there any evidence for this beyond the ID? I feel like I haven't seen many examples of "bad" CR except for optimally (and given that Int stat, probably correctly) played IDs and poorly played Tarrasques.

I expect CR will make more sense when the DMG pulls back the veil on how that number works. For all we know, the DMG got delayed in part to make sure they haven't totally screwed up the first printing of the monster math this time around.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 03:44 PM

Shining Wrath

2014-10-16, 03:53 PM

Gotcha. Still pretty extreme for CR2.

I agree with anyone who says ID is above CR 2.

I think that since they represent a significant investment for the Mind Flayers, they won't make suicide attacks. An ID will not attack with less than 90% chance of devouring a brain AND living to tell about it.

I also think the ID makes more sense if it displaces the brain rather than destroying it; their masters consider brains to be both useful and yummy.

obryn

2014-10-16, 04:00 PM

Is there any evidence for this beyond the ID? I feel like I haven't seen many examples of "bad" CR except for optimally (and given that Int stat, probably correctly) played IDs and poorly played Tarrasques.
Centaurs and Bugbears stand out, too, as creatures who can bring incredibly massive instakill damage. Pixies, too, as mentioned.

From what I can tell, it's because the CR is almost completely linked to stats, proficiency bonus, and hit dice. Basically, the raw characteristics. It doesn't seem to take damage into account, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if there's a formula in the DMG. I would be surprised if it took AC into account very much, either*. It also doesn't appear to take special abilities into account at all, which leaves you with the Pixie and ID.

* Damage is incredibly important for balancing monsters, but the 5e designers have returned to pre-4e calculations. An orc with a greataxe in 5e deals 1d12+Str damage with scary crits. An orc with a dagger deals 1d4+Dex or Str. An orc with heavy armor and a shield has much higher AC and deals probably 1d8+Str. These represent substantially different challenges to the party, which is why I think they should be considered in CR. I am hoping there's, minimally, a chart for expected damage for non-weapon-using monsters, but given the examples in the MM I find it unlikely.

AC, as well, is a big deal for balancing encounters. A group of Kobolds with 17 AC is a much bigger challenge than Kobolds with AC 12 or 14.

Abithrios

2014-10-16, 04:12 PM

Pixies also come to mind. The CR formula seems to have trouble with glass cannons.

How much of a fight something puts up does not have a single, well defined value. It has a certain distribution. It can probably be proved mathematically that a glass cannons has a wider spread in power and so estimates of their CR would necessarily be worse for predicting outcomes of encounters.

Arzanyos

2014-10-16, 04:13 PM

Yeah, I remember the Basic DM guide saying rejiggering the equipment of a monster might mess with its CR. I'd just use surfarcher's blog to see how much. I think he figured out a damage to CR formula.

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 05:19 PM

There are spells which are useful against the possibility of IDs. Mind Blank and Death Ward can protect directly against the attack and the body thief, respectively. Enhance Ability (intelligence) or a headband of intellect can provide enough INT to give a good save AND protect against the INT drain effect.

I don't think Enhance Ability would help at all actually, since it only gives you advantage on Int checks, not saves.

archaeo

2014-10-16, 05:26 PM

Centaurs and Bugbears stand out, too, as creatures who can bring incredibly massive instakill damage. Pixies, too, as mentioned.

Hm. Centaurs and Pixies are both "good" monsters; the former is indeed dangerous, but the latter can't kill you on its own. Bugbears do seem awfully dangerous.

But I guess I don't necessarily see the problem with CR X monsters having a good chance of killing level X PCs should the dice go their way. It's easy enough to back off the "medium" XP budget if you're concerned about low-level players, or encouraging spare the dying and health potion usage.

Edited to add: Also, it would be interesting to hear about high CR monsters that are considered impossibly difficult. Lots of RPGs have a problem with accounting for the vast stock of options available to high-level PCs while simultaneously maintaining easy enough gameplay in the opening stretches; it's a hard balance to achieve. Are there many high CR monsters that are problematic, or does the PC power curve in 5e generally even the odds for the players after they get past the fairly dangerous opening sections of the game?

From what I can tell, it's because the CR is almost completely linked to stats, proficiency bonus, and hit dice. Basically, the raw characteristics. It doesn't seem to take damage into account, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if there's a formula in the DMG. I would be surprised if it took AC into account very much, either*. It also doesn't appear to take special abilities into account at all, which leaves you with the Pixie and ID.

I don't think you need to worry about some kind of formula being in the DMG; there doesn't seem to be much use in telling us we'll be able to homebrew monsters without the math to do it.

We still don't have the final encounter building rules, in any case, and if, after the DMG comes out, CR still seems wonky, there's always errata next year.

Lonely Tylenol

2014-10-16, 07:10 PM

It's a misuse in flavor terms because you're turning a perfectly good horror creature / spy into a pack of overpowered mooks.

Counter-argument: what if the Intellect Devourers were running a con game?

Imagine, if you will, your delves too deep into the dungeon you were crawling through and find your way into the upper reaches of the Underdark. While navigating, you are approached by a small, gray-skinned humanoid at full sprint. He runs into your adventuring party seemingly by accident, then sputters, in all the languages it can (Gnomish, Terran, and Undercommon, in hopes the party can understand at least one), "mind flayers are attacking my home and enslaving my people! Please help!"

The creature leads you through the labyrinthe cave systems so hurriedly that you quickly lose your way, though you suspect you might have even at the pace of a brisk stroll, until you finally reach a cavernous expanse large enough to comfortably fit several dozen people, and perhaps twice as many of these peaceful dwellers. The little creature grabs one of you by the arm and pulls you faster than you thought its little legs could carry it, saying in a panicked tone that transcends language barriers, "my family is over here! You must help them!"

You round a corner in the outer expanses of their dwelling into the markets, where chaos is unfolding: brother seems to have turned against brother, pitted in a terrifying internal struggle. Some of the little grey-skinned friends are shrieking in terror and pushing their way past as best they can, the anguish evident on their faces, while others' movements appear... Rigid. Almost zombie-like, although there is no visible sign that they are zombies. The Cleric of the Light steps forward and attempts to turn them away, but his attempts appear to have no effect: the creatures keep advancing on the kin you are trying to protect. Amidst the chorus of wailing, screams of broken Gnomish and Undercommon pierce the echoes with phrases such as, "they've taken my sister!" and "back, all of you! Stop! NO!" None of this seems right, but you have no recourse but to fight. You step past the fleeing deep-dwellers and into the thick of battle.

The creatures appear no larger than the smallest of your children and the environment of the dwelling seems peaceful, but each fights with the strength of a grown man, driven mad by forces untold. They are no match for the experience of your battle-hardened party, but sheer numbers allow them to put up a fight regardless. Finally, your Cleric lands a telling blow with his mace, striking one of the creatures in the head and caving its skull in...

...And at that moment, a brain pops out. Not the blooded, pulped remains of the brain you might have expected from the trauma this creature had suffered, but a fully intact brain. A brain with limbs. Four of them, sticking up in the air, flailing helplessly. Before you can gather your senses to react, the brain rolls over, righting itself, and begins to scamper off.

Fortunately, your Ranger kept his senses about him, and used his primal awareness to discern the nature of this beast. He assumes that a creature such as this can only be an aberration, and he is right: as the creature weaves between the legs of the deep-dwellers, he feels the distinct presence of aberrations around. Not just this one, mind; the air seems absolutely thick with the presence of aberrations. It's as if they are... All... Around...

You.

It is not only the fleeing brain. The creatures who fought, possessed, as well, but not only them: it is also their kin, faces twisted in anguish as they flee from them. It is also the very creature who brought you to this enclave, looking up at you with his pleading eyes.

It is only then that you notice the dull vacancy in those pleading eyes, still looking up at you at this very moment.

It is only then that you notice that the sounds of battle, the screams of terror, the urgency of the moment, have stopped. You are surrounded on all sides by an eerie silence.

It is only then that you notice that you are surrounded on all sides.

Forum Explorer

2014-10-16, 07:25 PM

Pixies also come to mind. The CR formula seems to have trouble with glass cannons.

Pixies can't hurt you.

Counter-argument: what if the Intellect Devourers were running a con game?

Imagine, if you will, your delves too deep into the dungeon you were crawling through and find your way into the upper reaches of the Underdark. While navigating, you are approached by a small, gray-skinned humanoid at full sprint. He runs into your adventuring party seemingly by accident, then sputters, in all the languages it can (Gnomish, Terran, and Undercommon, in hopes the party can understand at least one), "mind flayers are attacking my home and enslaving my people! Please help!"

The creature leads you through the labyrinthe cave systems so hurriedly that you quickly lose your way, though you suspect you might have even at the pace of a brisk stroll, until you finally reach a cavernous expanse large enough to comfortably fit several dozen people, and perhaps twice as many of these peaceful dwellers. The little creature grabs one of you by the arm and pulls you faster than you thought its little legs could carry it, saying in a panicked tone that transcends language barriers, "my family is over here! You must help them!"

You round a corner in the outer expanses of their dwelling into the markets, where chaos is unfolding: brother seems to have turned against brother, pitted in a terrifying internal struggle. Some of the little grey-skinned friends are shrieking in terror and pushing their way past as best they can, the anguish evident on their faces, while others' movements appear... Rigid. Almost zombie-like, although there is no visible sign that they are zombies. The Cleric of the Light steps forward and attempts to turn them away, but his attempts appear to have no effect: the creatures keep advancing on the kin you are trying to protect. Amidst the chorus of wailing, screams of broken Gnomish and Undercommon pierce the echoes with phrases such as, "they've taken my sister!" and "back, all of you! Stop! NO!" None of this seems right, but you have no recourse but to fight. You step past the fleeing deep-dwellers and into the thick of battle.

The creatures appear no larger than the smallest of your children and the environment of the dwelling seems peaceful, but each fights with the strength of a grown man, driven mad by forces untold. They are no match for the experience of your battle-hardened party, but sheer numbers allow them to put up a fight regardless. Finally, your Cleric lands a telling blow with his mace, striking one of the creatures in the head and caving its skull in...

...And at that moment, a brain pops out. Not the blooded, pulped remains of the brain you might have expected from the trauma this creature had suffered, but a fully intact brain. A brain with limbs. Four of them, sticking up in the air, flailing helplessly. Before you can gather your senses to react, the brain rolls over, righting itself, and begins to scamper off.

Fortunately, your Ranger kept his senses about him, and used his primal awareness to discern the nature of this beast. He assumes that a creature such as this can only be an aberration, and he is right: as the creature weaves between the legs of the deep-dwellers, he feels the distinct presence of aberrations around. Not just this one, mind; the air seems absolutely thick with the presence of aberrations. It's as if they are... All... Around...

You.

It is not only the fleeing brain. The creatures who fought, possessed, as well, but not only them: it is also their kin, faces twisted in anguish as they flee from them. It is also the very creature who brought you to this enclave, looking up at you with his pleading eyes.

It is only then that you notice the dull vacancy in those pleading eyes, still looking up at you at this very moment.

It is only then that you notice that the sounds of battle, the screams of terror, the urgency of the moment, have stopped. You are surrounded on all sides by an eerie silence.

It is only then that you notice that you are surrounded on all sides.

That is amazing and oh so cool. That would be such a crazy fight where you have to avoid using AoE and killing the mob too quickly else you'd get swarmed by Intellect Devourers. You'd have to kill them one at a time, kill the ID, all while fending off the mob.

Anyways, I think another big thing about ID is that they don't mention how you recover the Intelligence damage. Nearly every other entry that drains a stat, tells you that it'll recover after a short or long rest. Intellect Devourers don't have anything one way or the other. (I'd personally go with the recovers after a short/long rest, so they aren't as annoying)

MaxWilson

2014-10-16, 08:10 PM

That is amazing and oh so cool. That would be such a crazy fight where you have to avoid using AoE and killing the mob too quickly else you'd get swarmed by Intellect Devourers. You'd have to kill them one at a time, kill the ID, all while fending off the mob.

Anyways, I think another big thing about ID is that they don't mention how you recover the Intelligence damage. Nearly every other entry that drains a stat, tells you that it'll recover after a short or long rest. Intellect Devourers don't have anything one way or the other. (I'd personally go with the recovers after a short/long rest, so they aren't as annoying)

Avoiding AoE doesn't actually help you at all, since IDs inside of a host can still exit at will and (by my reading) can still use their abilities from inside of the host.

It is indeed an awesome scenario, and the Monstrous Manual entry in fact suggests that this is the ID's primary modus operandi. "An intellect devourer typically uses its puppet host to lure others into the domain of the mind flayers to be enthralled or consumed."

Greater Restoration explicitly says that it restores stat drain, so it definitely works. It's up to you whether you allow long rests to work as well but I think the RAW indicates not.

Forum Explorer

2014-10-16, 08:24 PM

Avoiding AoE doesn't actually help you at all, since IDs inside of a host can still exit at will and (by my reading) can still use their abilities from inside of the host.

It is indeed an awesome scenario, and the Monstrous Manual entry in fact suggests that this is the ID's primary modus operandi. "An intellect devourer typically uses its puppet host to lure others into the domain of the mind flayers to be enthralled or consumed."

Greater Restoration explicitly says that it restores stat drain, so it definitely works. It's up to you whether you allow long rests to work as well but I think the RAW indicates not.

Arguably their attacks don't count as a trait so they can't do their Devour Intellect ability from inside the host.

Greater Restoration does instantly fix the problem, and is very useful to bring your ally back while you are in the fight.

RAW as far as I can tell, does not say one way or the other. And as far as I know there is no general rules on the matter. So going by the example of most of the other creatures that drain a stat, it should recover after a short or long rest.