One step from your Deity

[jedipotter]

So the Core Rules allow clerics to be within ''one step'' of the alignment of the deity they pick to follow. Now for the extremes of good and evil, this works out fine. But it sure gets gray in the middle.

What is a CN cleric of Corellon Larethian like? Does he if in the CG church?

How about Sune(Forgotten Realms) or Tymora(Forgotten Realms) with a CN cleric?

How about the CE clerics of Olidammara?

How about the evil crossovers, like the LN gods, they allow LE clerics. So what is a LE cleric of Helm like?

[NeoSeraphi]

I've always found that playing one step away from your deity is actually more interesting. It makes your character less a carbon copy of your deity and forces you to think about what your deity values over your deity's alignment.

I'm not completely familiar with the Forgotten Realms gods so I couldn't answer your specific questions, but I'll do so with some of the core gods of Pathfinder (along with a quick synopsis of what they like, so you can understand my thought process):

Abadar - LN God of Merchants and Prosperity - This guy values fair and balanced trading and exchange as a way to communicate between individuals. So, a LE cleric of Abadar could be a mob boss who intends to make his own rules for the city's merchants and force them to lawfully abide by what he perceives as "fair". A LG cleric of Abadar would instead seek to actively adjust any sort of transaction he viewed as unfair to either party.

Pharasma - N Goddess of Death - Good times. Pharasma is unique in roleplaying games in that she's a goddess of death who is completely anti-undead. She views death as a natural continuation of life. So, a NE cleric of Pharasma would see death as the ultimate release for others and would seek to kill as many people as possible in order to feed their souls to her goddess. A NG cleric of Pharasma would seek to make the passing of others as painless as possible, using spells like cure light wounds and restoration to aid someone's passing rather than simply removing disease and taking them away from their destined route. A LN cleric of Pharasma might seek to establish restrictions on necromancy in the city she lives in, while a CN cleric of Pharasma could be a vigilante who goes around smiting undead and making necromancers pay for disturbing corpses.

Hope this helps. It's all about a player's interpretation of the god's actual values rather than just their portfolio and their alignment.

[Brookshw]

They're tweaks on the gods view, different shades but similar.

[atemu1234]

The thing is, you aren't required to be in lockstep with your Deity's Alignment.

The thing is, in D&D, I've always roleplayed the gods as just other characters, and just as fallible, if a good bit older and wiser. Often wise enough to realize that they can learn from their servants as their servants learn from them.

That being said, those that have a deity often worship that deity for a reason. A CE cleric of Oli is likely to be capricious, appreciating things for being shiny and valuable and thus, theirs. This is their view of Olidammara.

[Threadnaught]

I'm going to be cautious here and ask, which version of Corellon Larethion are you referring to?

[Jeff the Green]

A CN cleric of Sune is concerned more with her pleasure and romantic relationships than others', but doesn't harm people in the pursuit of it. Or perhaps she has a ruthless streak and is willing to do Evil things to people who oppose love.

[jedipotter]

A CN cleric of Sune is concerned more with her pleasure and romantic relationships than others', but doesn't harm people in the pursuit of it. Or perhaps she has a ruthless streak and is willing to do Evil things to people who oppose love.

So a CN cleric of Sune is a player? And by harm, I'm sure your just talking about physical harm right? As ''using someone for sex'' is a form of mental and emotional harm. Can they like ''break a leg'' to keep a couple part so they have a shot? Or do other evil lite things less then murder(as murder is super vile chaotic evil, right?).

Or is the CN cleric more of the type who officially breaks off a relation ship in a way were the other person is comforted and understands?

[Urpriest]

A CE cleric of Olidammara shouldn't be so odd to you as an FR-fan, they'd basically be like a more prank-focused cleric of Mask. Olidammara isn't all that focused on being nice overall.

I'd think of a CN cleric of Corellon Larethian as sort of a flipped version of a LN cleric of Heironeous. In both cases, it's a case of fanaticism going too far. In the LN case, you've got someone whose focus on law is overwhelming their desire for good. In the CN case, think about an Elf whose belief in elven superiority and the necessity of elven independence has pushed aside their compassion for other races.

[Jeff the Green]

So a CN cleric of Sune is a player?
Huh?


And by harm, I'm sure your just talking about physical harm right? As ''using someone for sex'' is a form of mental and emotional harm. Can they like ''break a leg'' to keep a couple part so they have a shot? Or do other evil lite things less then murder(as murder is super vile chaotic evil, right?).
No, harm period. After all, you can abuse someone without laying a finger on them. But there is a balancing act (except for the most evil acts, like murder for pleasure, harming souls, etc.) with intent, Good acts, frequency, tendency, etc. It's not "You can kill five people but one more and you're doomed to the abyss."

And no, murder is Evil. Not necessarily chaotic. If the leader of a mercenary group executes a friend because he violated the group's rules, that's an Evil, Lawful act, for example.


Or is the CN cleric more of the type who officially breaks off a relation ship in a way were the other person is comforted and understands?
Unless you're gratuitously hurtful (like flaunting a relationship with the ex's best friend, then also dumping the new one) I have a hard time imagining breaking up with someone even nudging your alignment southward.

[atemu1234]

Huh?


No, harm period. After all, you can abuse someone without laying a finger on them. But there is a balancing act (except for the most evil acts, like murder for pleasure, harming souls, etc.) with intent, Good acts, frequency, tendency, etc. It's not "You can kill five people but one more and you're doomed to the abyss."

And no, murder is Evil. Not necessarily chaotic. If the leader of a mercenary group executes a friend because he violated the group's rules, that's an Evil, Lawful act, for example.


Unless you're gratuitously hurtful (like flaunting a relationship with the ex's best friend, then also dumping the new one) I have a hard time imagining breaking up with someone even nudging your alignment southward.

Unless the breakup involves stabbing. Then it's evil.

[Jeff the Green]

Unless the breakup involves stabbing. Then it's evil.

I mean, that's not exactly what I was thinking of, but I'm fairly confident that stabbing would fall under "gratuitously hurtful".

[atemu1234]

I mean, that's not exactly what I was thinking of, but I'm fairly confident that stabbing would fall under "gratuitously hurtful".

Depends on where, really.

[Jeff the Green]

Depends on where, really.

There are breakups where stabbing anywhere is entirely proportionate?

[atemu1234]

There are breakups where stabbing anywhere is entirely proportionate?

Surprisingly many.

[darksolitaire]

Sune can also be a patron deity for LG Paladins. I kind of want to play one, but I won't have time. I'll just have to make one as an NPC. "By the power of love, I smite thee!"

[Astralia123]

Seriously I'm tired with that black widow alignment discussion thing.

I liked it when someone said this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18251077&postcount=8


yah. alignment should be descriptive and not proscriptive

Please don't think it as if every chaotic neutral foot fits in the same boot. Nor does every evil foot or every Sune worshiper's foot.

[fluke1993]

Huh?

I believe he means player as in "playa" as in one who sleeps with many people, as opposed to "player" as in one who is in control of a PC.

[prufock]

These all depend on the specific player character. Clerics who are one step removed from their deity in alignment may not live up to all of the deity's ideals, but also doesn't break the deity's commandments. The following are just example possibilities.


What is a CN cleric of Corellon Larethian like?
I see this guy as an Indiana Jones type. He's out there, seeking out and "liberating" lost elven artifacts to return to the temple, but he's not above sneaky tricks, busting a few heads, or theft to get them.

I don't know much about Sune or Tymora.


How about the CE clerics of Olidammara?
Their tricks are more malicious and selfish than those of most of their peers. They use their wits for personal gain at the (often humiliating and painful) expense of others. Their sense of humour may be darker and a little more "sick" than many of the tricksters in the church.


How about the evil crossovers, like the LN gods, they allow LE clerics. So what is a LE cleric of Helm like?
I'm going to use Cuthbert for this one, since I'm more familiar with him.
A LE cleric of St. Cuthbert enjoys punishing the wicked. His punishments may be more extreme than others. His attitude is "if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again, we'd better make an example of this one!" Might have a slight sadistic streak, pushing the legal bounds of the church's orders to their fullest extent. But he remains within those bounds, because it's a socially-acceptable means of acting out his violent urges.

[Telonius]

LE follower of St. Cuthbert?

Kore, from Goblins.

[Svata]

Your point is good, your example is bad. St. Cuthbert explicitly can't have evil clerics, as an exception to the general rule. Oh, and all of his neutral clerics channel positive energy.

[hamishspence]

And in Greyhawk Tiamat can't have LN clerics.

In Faerun on the other hand, the head of the church of Tiamat in Unther, Tiglath, is LN.

[Threadnaught]

Corellon Larethion's Clerics all pay homage to his people the Elves and oppose the servants of Lolth, whether they're Drow or any other race.

NG Clerics: Are more willing to follow others' code of conduct. They may consider other races to be just as intelligent and worthy of life as the Elves, provided there are no hostilities against Elves.

CG Clerics: Are less willing to follow others' code of conduct and could be disruptive to the communities of other races. They may believe that the Elves are what every other being must aspire to, putting Elvenkind on a pedestal where they're the only people who are truly worthy of life, while everyone else must prove it.

CN Clerics: May be antagonistic toward non-Elves, believing that not only are Elves better than everyone else, but everyone else should be grateful to and revere the Elves for simply existing.

Clerics who kill Drow children for being Drow: Lose their power for murdering unarmed civilians and even if they atone, they must never kill an unarmed Drow child in an unprovoked attack under their own power, or they lose their powers permanently and are Excommunicated. If the Ex-Cleric decides to take revenge, then the followers of Corellon Larethian launch a Crusade against the Cleric.

[Ratatoskir]

There are breakups where stabbing anywhere is entirely proportionate?

Breakup nookie?

[Honest Tiefling]

I view those who are one step from their deity and use that as an excuse to commit things their deity would not agree with no better then the guy who plays Chaotic Neutral as Stupid Evil. The gods keep tabs on their worshippers and nothing prevents them from taking back their powers if you run around stabbing people when you devote yourself to a good goddess. She's listed as good aligned, not neutral so she has to have good values, i.e., respect for life. Sure, you might slip up now and again, but outright murder and extreme acts of violence for no good reason is not slipping up or being imperfect. Sune, for all of her preoccupation with beauty, is a goddess who still has both the Protection and the Good domains.

[Coidzor]

CN Elves of Correllon Larethian? Think of those Elven Superiority jerks who'll murder or imprison travelers for "trespassing," but won't actively go out and be mustache-twirling villains. Partially because as poncy elves they can't grow decent mustaches to twirl.


I believe he means player as in "playa" as in one who sleeps with many people, as opposed to "player" as in one who is in control of a PC.

About 50-50, really.


Breakup nookie?

No. Just... no.

[AvatarVecna]

CE cleric of Olidammara? Shoot Wis and Cha into the stratosphere; play it as a straight up Joker.

[Tragak]

[thread-derail]
The thing is, you aren't required to be in lockstep with your Deity's Alignment.
Please don't think it as if every chaotic neutral foot fits in the same boot. It sounds like the OP already feels the same way, so I don't get why you're making it sound like he's disagreeing with you.[/thread-derail]

My favorite concepts for clerics who follow deities of differing alignment are

1) "My god's tenets are what's best for the world, and even though I personally don't measure up yet, I hope to in the future"

Example: A CN follows a CG deity because he sees how communities where everybody takes care of each other tend to last longer than "communities" where everybody is on their own, and the CN is trying to make himself more quick to help others than he tends to be

2) "My god's tenets are what's best for the world because they provide a middle-ground for different people to come together peacefully"

Example: A CG follows a NG deity because he sees that Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic Goods need to work together in order to build as Good a society as possible, and just because he personally is one of the voices of Chaos does not mean that he holds a grudge against his compatriots who serve as the voices of Law


CE cleric of Olidammara? Shoot Wis and Cha into the stratosphere; play it as a straight up Joker. *applause*

[Threadnaught]

[thread-derail] It sounds like the OP already feels the same way, so I don't get why you're making it sound like he's disagreeing with you.[/thread-derail]

CG includes genocidal racist doing everything in their power to wipe out an entire race, in the OP's Campaign.


Hence why I asked which version of Corellon Larethian, because the OP's version is basically Hitler.

[Galen]

How about the evil crossovers, like the LN gods, they allow LE clerics. So what is a LE cleric of Helm like?A ruthless crusader for cause, giving little value to collateral damage and to the innocents being trampled underfoot while he does what "needs to be done, at any cost".