Vow of Poverty and Intelligent Items

[Oddman80]

Yeah... sorry... another Vow of Poverty thread...

OK - lets skip any conversation about why VOP is good/bad/non-optimized, etc.
I have a question, that might fit in the Simple RAW Questions thread - but I wanted to see some more discussion around the issue than that thread allows.

Given that an Intelligent Magical Item is sentient, and the SRD says it should be treated like an NPC, can a player that has taken VOP also be in possession of a Magically Intelligent item?

The answer is probably not a simple yes or no... it is probably dependent on what the base magical item is. It couldn't be something like a ring of protection - as that would grant a benefit to the wearer automatically. However, if it were just a +1 dagger, that the player always kept sheathed (i.e. never used) - The Intelligent item could still use whatever lesser/greater/dedicated powers it has due to its intelligence, as well as any use activated properties the item has as well, as it would be doing so on its own initiative.

Thoughts?

[KingSmitty]

I'd say if you found an intelligent dagger and it asked to go with you, thats okay.

[XionUnborn01]

While it's a cool idea, I don't think it's possible with RAW. Obviously it's got a cost and even though it's to be treated as an npc, a VOPer couldn't hire a bodyguard because they only have enough money for some food and lodging.

I could see a DM allowing it under certain conditions, assuming that it's not a spectacularly powerful item.

[Oddman80]

While it's a cool idea, I don't think it's possible with RAW. Obviously it's got a cost and even though it's to be treated as an npc, a VOPer couldn't hire a bodyguard because they only have enough money for some food and lodging.

I could see a DM allowing it under certain conditions, assuming that it's not a spectacularly powerful item.

I was personally thinking of one that has the special purpose of protecting worshippers of the VOP character's deity. And then having the Dedicated ability of Dimension dooring itself & user.. that's straight from the SRD.. could help get VOP character out of danger during those times it is up against something it cannot handle (fear effects... mind control... Collosal creature grappling it)

the price thing is valid.. that said - only the "majority of her share of party treasure...should be donated to the needy"
So the minimum cost for the item i was thinking of would be about 53,000 gold. a 13th or 14th level character with VOP should be able to purchase such an item without breaking their oath.

[danzibr]

Hmm that's a great one. I never considered it.

The hiring-a-bodyguard example isn't a good one. If a bodyguard offers to help the VoPer for free, that would be okay. What if the intelligent item offers to help the VoPer for free?

[Telonius]

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm):


Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

If a VoP character were to carry a wizard on his back, I don't think that would violate the Vow. Neither would carrying the item.

[TheIronGolem]

If a VoP character were to carry a wizard on his back, I don't think that would violate the Vow.

But the wizard would have to be naked, otherwise the VoPer is "using" the wizard's clothes and enjoying the benefit of not having shriveled up old wizard junk pressing on their back.

[Rubik]

But the wizard would have to be naked, otherwise the VoPer is "using" the wizard's clothes and enjoying the benefit of not having shriveled up old wizard junk pressing on their back.Not all wizards are old and decrepit, you know.

Granted, wizards often dump their Cha scores, but Charisma isn't everything. (http://rustyandco.com/missives/critical-missives-4/)

[Necroticplague]

And here I was thinking this would be a thread out the utility and validity of an intelligent weapon having the VOP itself.

That being said, as long as the VOPer doesn't use it like the item it is, I'd say that really, the dagger own itself and the dude just happens to be lugging it around. While the caster couldn't use any of its properties without violating the vow, he is perfectly allowed to have the dagger use its abilities on him. Handy way to get the senses one should have.

[Red Fel]

Even though an intelligent item may be treated as a construct for certain ability checks and the like, it is still an object. It has a measurable gp value directly tied to its function. I hold that, despite it being intelligent and so forth, it still counts as a material possession (for as long as it allows you to possess it), and thus violates the Vow.

Necrotic makes a valid point, though. As long as you simply act as its surrogate legs, and in no way wield it (e.g. no swinging the magic sword, no asking it to burninate your enemies) you're not really violating your oath. But as soon as you actively receive a benefit from its use, it ceases to be a fellow traveler and becomes a material object of measurable (and significant) value that you possess and use - a violation of your Vow.

That said, there are arguments that Relics do not violate VoP. (I don't remember the specifics.) If you're that desperate to have an intelligent item on a VoP PC, why not ask (beg, plead, bribe, blackmail) your DM to give you an intelligent relic? After he stops laughing hysterically, he might consider it.

[Oddman80]

...That said, there are arguments that Relics do not violate VoP...

Yeah - I remember that thread - it was pretty universally accepted that even if you took the meaning of "Rather than merely another form of magic equipment" to mean that relics are not magical equipment (which they CLEARLY ARE)... it was STILL not a good plan, as Relics and Artifacts specifically state they can only be brought into a campaign by the DM. you can't buy one or craft one...

That said, after looking over the SRD about intelligent items... This might lead to the same dead end.
While it doesn't come right out and say that it can only be brought tinto a campaign by the DM - there are not any requirements set forth for actual object creation (what level spells/classes are needed - what spells? etc.) It just gives cost increases for different functionality... and the fact that a character can only have one at a time, lest the items start fighting each other for dominance (pretty funny, really)

So - as long as your DM doesn't mind players purchasing intelligent items, it should also work for a VOP player... again with the added restrictions of never being able to actively/directly wield it or use it.

[Rubik]

Yeah - I remember that thread - it was pretty universally accepted that even if you took the meaning of "Rather than merely another form of magic equipment" to mean that relics are not magical equipment (which they CLEARLY ARE)... it was STILL not a good plan, as Relics and Artifacts specifically state they can only be brought into a campaign by the DM. you can't buy one or craft one...Actually, the MIC has the prereqs for relics. The enveloping pit, for instance, has the following:

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Sanctify Relic, Plane Shift.
Cost ot Create: 1,800 gp, 144 xp, 4 days

[Necroticplague]

Actually, the MIC has the prereqs for relics. The enveloping pit, for instance, has the following:

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Sanctify Relic, Plane Shift.
Cost ot Create: 1,800 gp, 144 xp, 4 days

Different kind of relic, the ones from BOED.

[Rubik]

Different kind of relic, the ones from BOED.The items in the MIC are still relics, and have similar rules, IIRC.

[Red Fel]

So - as long as your DM doesn't mind players purchasing intelligent items, it should also work for a VOP player... again with the added restrictions of never being able to actively/directly wield it or use it.

And that's one of the key dilemmas. If you have an intelligent item and can't use it... Do you really have an intelligent item? Really, it's just an inanimate box of knowledge in that case. At its simplest, it's an empathetic object that can see and hear, has a power you won't activate, and has a function (e.g. a sword, suit of armor, or what-have-you) you won't use. If you crank it up a bit, give it speech, it is now a talking inanimate object that can see and hear, and has two powers and a function you won't use.

Now, according to the description of intelligent items, the item uses its powers on its own initiative and of its own volition. This is basically the equivalent of having a hireling to help you, only a hireling you don't have to feed or pay. Alternatively, it's the equivalent of arming a familiar with some wands, and informing him that, "Now, I can't order you to use those. So simply do so if and when you think it's appropriate." Which is somewhat frowned upon.

And it gets even more complicated if it has a Dedicated Power. At that point, it could well try to force you to use it in order to accomplish its goal. Which I'm pretty sure would violate your Vow.

Now, there are ways to make this kind of awesome. For instance, if you made an intelligent item with no combat function - such as a book, for instance - that was capable of speech and had extensive knowledge, it'd be a pretty fun item. You carry it around (because it can't travel on its own), and it shares its counsel, wisdom, and experience. Or a harp that could sing and wanted somebody to carry it around so that it could share its music with the world. Some great fluff there. The problem is that as soon as you turn it into a more typical item - sword, shield, armor, etc. - you lose a lot of that novel flavor in favor of, "Well, I can't wield it as a sword, but if I hold it, it can swing itself, right?"

[Troacctid]

"Hey, you can't carry me around, you're not allowed to have valuable things."
"Well it's lucky all I have is you, then. Now shut up."

[Oddman80]

So when i did the random d100 rolls to see what benefits it would get if i got one. For the Alignment roll, I got 87, so true nuetral (excellent).

The intelligence/ability roll got me a 67, so the item would have a INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 10, the ability to speak Common, and two other languages, have two lesser powers, and 120' Vision.

The rolls for lesser powers got me a 22 and 98. That would grant the object the ability to detect magic at will, cure moderate wounds for its wielder 3/day.

For the Special Purpose, the roll was an 82, so defend the followers of a specific deity (my deity?)

and finally, for the Dedicated ability, I rolled a 28 - so Dimension door at will for the item and its user.


Total ego score, if placed on a +1 dagger, would be a 13. So even if the item and I were in disagreement about a course of action, a will save of better than 13 would reestablish my dominance, and force the item to do my bidding... While on the surface - this seems like you would be using the item... it would be far more akin to pressuring a cohort or fellow part member to do what you want.

the biggest risk is failing the will save, and then being forced by the item to wield it... the second you do - POOF! no more vow of poverty.

so there is a decent risk involved.. you would have to foster the relationship - make sure the item didn't get mad at you for some reason... anything to avoid having to make the will save for dominance. It would be a VERY bad idea for a lawful good VOPer to take on a chaotic or evil item... that would just not go well...


all that said - the item i rolled would be pretty useful. it can warn me if there is magic nearby, cure me if i am low on HP, and if it looks like i am really in trouble - DDoor me out of there. The first couple encounters might go poorly... but after a few conversations with the dagger (or whatever other item), the pc and the item should be able to come to a basic understanding of tactics and usefulness...

Now... i didn't mention this before, as it wasn't really relevant at the time. but the character that i have right now with VOP is not actually my character - rather it's my Dire Tiger wild cohort. My DM had allowed my to use one of the ability score upgrades to bum INT to 3, turning her into an intelligent creature (albeit low intelligence). She adopted my deity as her own , and has devoted herself to the protection of all who worship my deity. All of her feats have been protective and party buffing in nature. she does her best to be selfless... so this specific item would actually be very serendipitous. It would help to look after her as she spent her time and effort looking out for others. :)

[Phelix-Mu]

While it's a cool idea, I don't think it's possible with RAW. Obviously it's got a cost and even though it's to be treated as an npc, a VOPer couldn't hire a bodyguard because they only have enough money for some food and lodging.

But the character with VoP could convince those hirelings to provide a valuable service for free. In a sense, meeting an intelligent dagger with similar goals/alignment is kind of the same thing.

I'd allow it as long as I, the DM, ran the intelligent item as an npc, not an item. This likely means ditching some or all of the ego rules and just making it all based on role play, not rolls. Role play-based exemption demands role play, after all.

EDIT: Wait, am I seriously in before "my tale begins in the 12th century??"

[Psyren]

By RAW it's both an object and a creature, so no.

But if one were to follow you around and cast buffs on you of its own volition, hey, you had nothing to do with that.

[Necroticplague]

EDIT: Wait, am I seriously in before "my tale begins in the 12th century??"

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/184/630/remiq.net_9522.jpg

[Smegskull]

VoP can have a magic item as long as they do not own or use them.
You can argue that an intelligent item owns itself.
as long as you do not use it for anything you can have it.
I personally would argue that you can use it for mundane tasks that do not benefit from the magic (use a +1 dagger to cut open a sack of flower), however that would have to be decided by your DM.

[Jeff the Green]

By RAW it's both an object and a creature, so no.

I thought it was RAW both an item and a creature. Same answer, though.

It's entirely conceivable that a given intelligent item might in fact be a relic and thus available to you. Entirely DM purview, though.