Can rogues use scrolls?

[ace rooster]

On another thread somebody was suggesting UMDing a scroll, and implying that there was some difference as to how caster levels interacted with UMDed scrolls and wands, so I looked into it a bit. What I found was a bit funny.



Use a Scroll

If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.


Bold mine. Is there any suggestion anywhere else that UMD allows you to emulate the caster level required to auto pass the caster level check? Caster level is not mentioned in the wizard or sorcerer class features, only being mentioned later in the magic rules. The use scroll entry would not be redundant as bards do have a caster level and UMD, and this part makes good sense for them.

Am I missing something?

[Telok]

Emulate a class feature. DC 20.

You use UMD to fake the casting stat and the class feature that allows you to cast spells. Using UMD on scrolls is a real pain in the butt.

Edit: Oh, I see what you are saying now. Since caster level isn't an explicitly defined class feature a rogue can't make the caster level check to cast a spell that's on his class list, and you're getting the class list from the UMD check.

You are seeing the UMD skill as giving you the (faked but effective) class list and ability score. Then you go to the magic item section about scrolls and see that if you don't have a high enough caster level then you have to make a caster level check.

I see the UMD skill rules as "This is what you need to do to cast a spell from a scroll." So you do what it says in the skill description and get the desired result, casting a spell from a scroll.

The D&D rules make a really bad legal document if you parse them line by line without reference to what the rules are trying to do. If I blindly implemented the rule set as a series of computer algorithms it would crash.

In this case it works just fine if you say
Goal: Cast a spell from a scroll.
Method: Do what the UMD skill says to do.
It breaks down if you say
Goal: Cast a spell from a scroll.
Method: Do what the UMD skill says and then apply the normal method for spellcasters to use a scoll to that result.

[ace rooster]

Emulate a class feature. DC 20.

You use UMD to fake the casting stat and the class feature that allows you to cast spells. Using UMD on scrolls is a real pain in the butt.

But caster level is not generally a class feature. Spells are a class feature, but caster level is not mentioned in the full casting class descriptions at all! Caster level is defined in the spell casting section, and in general is a function of levels in classes that let you cast spells, rather than a feature. The exception seems to be the half casting classes, who do get caster levels mentioned. You could emulate their casting, but your caster level would be half your check minus 20. Unfortunately there is no provision to UMD a spell onto the ranger list for example, and emulated casting does not give you a caster level that you could use for your own spell list, which UMD adds to.


The question I am asking is whether the basic intention of the use scroll entry was for use by rogues, or whether RAI is actually that bards can use scrolls of any class at a push. The wording about spell lists suggest to me that it is.

[infomatic]

I think you're off-base, for reasons that Telok laid out. Rogues are supposed to be able to use this stuff, just because.

But even accepting your argument, there's still the "Activate Blindly feature," which would allow it (with a risk of mishap).

From Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a)":


Blind Activation: You can use the "activate blindly" option with any kind of item

[Psyren]

The "Use a Scroll" rules under UMD supersede the regular activation method of the scroll, because you're simply not using that method, you're using UMD. UMD tells you everything you have to do to use the scroll. No CL check is mentioned, therefore there is none.

[Afgncaap5]

Yeah, they can use a scroll through the skill (effectively emulating the part of the fantasy novel where the plucky comic relief character frantically hits the wand or recites dozens of things that are close to what the inscription says just for it to activate at a crucial moment.)

My gaming group actually has a running joke describing artificers as just being "highly specialized rogues."

[ace rooster]

The "Use a Scroll" rules under UMD supersede the regular activation method of the scroll, because you're simply not using that method, you're using UMD. UMD tells you everything you have to do to use the scroll. No CL check is mentioned, therefore there is none.



Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.


It explicitly does not supersede the normal scroll activation, merely extending it's use.


The blind activation thing looks like it does work, and will actually be easier often anyway :smallconfused:.

[Telok]

I think I got one for you. Every class that has spellcasting has a caster level and a spell list bybthe definition in the ,agic section. By using UMD you are giving yourself spellcasting (class feature) with that paticular spell list. Since your class now has spellcasting you have a caster level equal to your level as described in the magic section.

What you do with this is up to you. The rest of us are going to take the easy way out and not lawyer everything to death.

[Psyren]

It explicitly does not supersede the normal scroll activation, merely extending it's use.

"Use a scroll" tells you what you need to do in order to use a scroll. If you succeed at all that and still do not use the scroll, you are violating RAW.

[Dalebert]

"Use a scroll" tells you what you need to do in order to use a scroll. If you succeed at all that and still do not use the scroll, you are violating RAW.

2nded. Wizards and sorcerers don't usually need UMD. They are trained in using those items and there are rules for activating scrolls THAT way. UMD is a particular skill. It operates under different rules than the typical methods.

[ace rooster]

I think I got one for you. Every class that has spellcasting has a caster level and a spell list bybthe definition in the ,agic section. By using UMD you are giving yourself spellcasting (class feature) with that paticular spell list. Since your class now has spellcasting you have a caster level equal to your level as described in the magic section.

What you do with this is up to you. The rest of us are going to take the easy way out and not lawyer everything to death.

Yeah that way works, but my question was not about RAW. I am trying to work out the original RAI. If RAI was that UMD can be used to acivate scrolls natively then it is easy to write a clear description of how this works. It would go something like "you may make a UMD check of DC 20+caster level to allow you to activate a scroll. If you do not have the necessary ability score then you must emulate that as well". Instead it talks about spell lists. If you try to write a use for bards that permits them to use scrolls from other classes you will probably find you have written something very similar to the text in the SRD.

Also to people that think UMD replaces the normal action,


Action
None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

Even to me that seems pretty bulletproof.

I agree that this is probably unimportant, and the article from Skip suggests that his understanding was for the intention of UMD was for anyone to be able to use any item with a high enough check. It is entirely possible that the intention changed in the design stage, resulting in the strange wording, or simply that the designers at differing ideas as to how it was supposed to function. Rest assured that I try to limit my lawyering to rules Q and A threads. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Even to me that seems pretty bulletproof.

The action to activate the scroll does not change, but everything else you would do does. Again, the skill tells you what you need to do, and caster level checks are not mentioned anywhere in the skill.