Optimizing Produce flame

[Enochi]

You may remember me from the Optimizing color spray thread. I was just messing around and was struck by a silly little idea that made me wonder if it could be made into a workable character.

My idea is basically to use the Gnome alt racial pyromaniac trait which gives them the produce flame spell into a two weapon fighting style.

Core of it would be 1st feat: Extra Gnome Magic, 3rd feat Extend Meta-Magic, Trait: Metamagic Adept. Using the Slayer talents to grab two-weapon fighting feats.

By 3rd Level if I'm doing this right you would be able to make 2 touch attacks for 1d6+4 + Possible sneak attack damage + Studied and would have a total of 8 attacks before produce flame runs out. I think this can be taken further to a better result but I'm curious as to what routes others would use to enhance this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Holding the Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) says that a spell that's delivered with a touch (not just a touch-range spell) is delivered along with a natural weapon attack.

1. Wild Shape into a Fleshraker or a Dire Lion or some other creature with a bunch of natural weapons.
2. Cast (Lesser Rod of) Extended Produce Flame, because you have Natural Spell.
3. Add 1d6+5 fire damage to each of your natural weapon attacks, potentially dealing 5d6+25 damage per round with it.

Bonus points if you use Fell Frighten and/or Fell Drain with it, though keep in mind that those most likely only inflict their effect once on a target for each spell they modify, regardless of how often you damage a creature with it. Energy Substitution and Born of the Three Thunders could also be useful, but keep in mind that it specifies that the stunning and knocking prone effect occurs at the spell's conclusion, i.e. when it ends.

Alternatively, just grab two levels of Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) and use Hand Afire, which has no limit to its daily uses and no duration, so it can be assumed that it's just toggled on and off as a move-action. Both of your hands are on fire indefinitely, and each adds 2d6 fire damage to your unarmed or natural attacks with those limbs which bypasses SR.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there some way we could get the fire produced to count as a weapon so you could enchant it? Like...kensai levels? Splitting flaming produce flame of collision +1.

[Enochi]

Gah I always forget to mention. My apologies pathfinder please. 3.5 is great but most games I end up playing are pathfinder.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you can use 3.5 stuff, Raging Flame is a 1st level spell that will add some damage to the flames.

In PF, you can dip Sorcerer 1 and there's at least two bloodlines (elemental and orc, I think?) that add extra damage to energy spells (use the archetype for two bloodlines at the expense of spells you'll mostly never acquire anyway).

[Abd al-Azrad]

I'm thinking the simplest way to go about this is to just go Druid. Gnome alternate magic gives you the spell as a spell-like 1/day, which is fine as a backup trick but not something I'd like to rely upon. Also, I'm not sure how reliable Extended metamagic is with spell-likes, but I've yet to see an Extend Spell-Like Ability monster feat printed.

Even if you find that option, best case you're managing two flame attacks per level per day, which I don't really think is enough to make it worth your investment except as a little backup trick.

Druid, on the other hand, has a pretty solid chassis for this build. It gets Produce Flame as a first-level spell, it can Wildshape into something with lots of natural attacks and Pounce.

I will concede the following, however. If you've got the Charisma for it, you can grab Eldritch Heritage as a feat (get that Orc bloodline power without using a level). Grabbing Produce Flame as a 1/day spell-like also allows you to power Arcane Strike at your full level, so pick that up as well. And then you can go with pretty much any class. Magus may be a good choice - you can use Spell Combat to cast Monstrous Physique, shift into something with lots of natural attacks (like a Four-Armed Gargoyle), then use up your entire Produce Flame powers in one or two rounds. You could even grab the Eldritch Scion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-scion) archetype for Charisma synergy, a Bloodrager bloodline, and a few other tricks.

Of course, you're still using a small, low-Str race to try and contribute to melee combat.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm thinking the simplest way to go about this is to just go Druid. Gnome alternate magic gives you the spell as a spell-like 1/day, which is fine as a backup trick but not something I'd like to rely upon.

It could be way more a back up at low levels when spell slots are tight. I'm just not sure you can make this work....

The idea would be to find a way to get it more than 1/day, for starters. There's Arcane Talent in APG for 3/day, but it's only for 0-level SLAs. Anyway...if that is possible... you can then use Recharge Innate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/recharge-innate-magic) to get all the slots back each time you cast, multiplying your produce flames per day by however many you can use it as a base. You'd want at least 2/day, and since a feat is likely required to get it more than 1/day and feats are precious, I would settle for nothing less than 3/day. (Obviously, if you have it 1/day the spell is useless other than to regain SLAs you don't actually have via the class normally, or if you're only dipping into a caster class so the SLA's CL is much better than your actual spells).

Can anyone complete the combo? Getting 3 spells or more per slot is pretty handy at low levels for the price of a feat.

[Enochi]

It could be way more a back up at low levels when spell slots are tight. I'm just not sure you can make this work....

The idea would be to find a way to get it more than 1/day, for starters. There's Arcane Talent in APG for 3/day, but it's only for 0-level SLAs. Anyway...if that is possible... you can then use Recharge Innate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/recharge-innate-magic) to get all the slots back each time you cast, multiplying your produce flames per day by however many you can use it as a base. You'd want at least 2/day, and since a feat is likely required to get it more than 1/day and feats are precious, I would settle for nothing less than 3/day. (Obviously, if you have it 1/day the spell is useless other than to regain SLAs you don't actually have via the class normally, or if you're only dipping into a caster class so the SLA's CL is much better than your actual spells).

Can anyone complete the combo? Getting 3 spells or more per slot is pretty handy at low levels for the price of a feat.

In pathfinder you can take the extra gnome magic feat which lets you use the spells you get from your gnomish magic an additional 3 times. So would let you use produce flame 4 times a day.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Great. So that's 4 produce flames per 1st level spell slot. Pretty good at low levels.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Dang, extra gnome magic makes this pretty viable suddenly. Wish I'd known of it.

I'd still look for synergies to make your build around spamming touch attacks. Magus is still a good(-ish) choice, but I'm not sure you can use Spellstrike with your gnome spell-likes (by the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Spellstrike-Su-), Spellstrike can trigger "whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list"). It would be nice to get this working, but even if your DM disallows it, you can still deliver the Produce Flame attacks with natural weapons, so that's an easy work-around.

IMO, your best class bets are still:

- Something that doesn't hate Charisma
- Something that can access natural weapons
- Something passable in melee
- BONUS: Something that gets other use/level touch attack spells

I'd recommend looking into Bloodrager bloodlines (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal), as two of the classes I recommend based on these stipulations (Bloodrager, obviously, and Eldritch Scion Magus) both use them.

I've linked the Abyssal bloodline because it provides you claw attacks when you Bloodrage / enter mystical focus. Both classes can also access Frostbite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frostbite), a decent first-level touch attack spell that works very similarly to a Cold Nonlethal Produce Flame.

At this point, other than losing Strength and a decent crit range, I think this concept is pretty cool. From first level on you can get quite a bit of durability - multiple touch-attack spell attacks delivered per round through claws, multiple types of elemental damage. Eventually grab yourself an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, and you can use your Dex to damage rather than Str. As you level you can pick up more shapeshifting spells, for more natural attacks.

[avr]

I kind of like the idea of playing a paladin and using it with smite evil. Or maybe Iroran Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype). You then get into style feats one way or another; unarmed strikes can be used to deliver touch attacks too.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Great. So that's 4 produce flames per 1st level spell slot. Pretty good at low levels.

Help me out with this, I'm not seeing the trick here. Recharge Innate Magic says, "You regain one use of all 0-level and 1st-level spell-like abilities you can use as a result of a racial trait."

Doesn't that still mean you're trading a first-level spell slot for a single use of this first-level spell? It seems more powerful if you have a bunch of different 0- and 1-level spell-likes, but I don't see how it could fully recharge even a 4/day Produce Flame.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Help me out with this, I'm not seeing the trick here. Recharge Innate Magic says, "You regain one use of all 0-level and 1st-level spell-like abilities you can use as a result of a racial trait."

Doesn't that still mean you're trading a first-level spell slot for a single use of this first-level spell? It seems more powerful if you have a bunch of different 0- and 1-level spell-likes, but I don't see how it could fully recharge even a 4/day Produce Flame.

...You're right. I totally missed that part, just saw the "all." It's indeed only good if you are tossing out several different 1st level SLAs. Oops.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Okay, here's another question on the matter. Produce Flame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/produce-flame), while behaving like a touch attack spell, is not a touch attack spell by RAW.

1) Does this mean you can cast, and hold the charge of, another touch attack spell while Produce Flame is running?

2) Does this mean you can discharge a touch attack spell in the same attack action that you augment with a single touch of Produce Flame?

3) Assuming "Yes" to the above, can you activate your spell-like Produce Flame, cast another spell like Frostbite (different casting actions of course), then full attack dealing +1d6 +5 fire and +1d6 +level nonlethal cold damage with each of your natural weapons?

4) Nova?

[Enochi]

Huh. An Idea. What about a Divine hunter paladin. If produce flame can be treated as a thrown weapon couldn't you divine bond it?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Huh. An Idea. What about a Divine hunter paladin. If produce flame can be treated as a thrown weapon couldn't you divine bond it?

The problem we keep bumping into here, is that Produce Flame is very weirdly written. It's not a Touch spell, it's not a Target spell, but it produces an effect that can be used as a melee touch attack, or a ranged touch attack.

I doubt I would rule against a given interpretation (except maybe my own suggestion of stacking Produce Flame on another touch attack, because that's just silly). But were I to actually want to invest in a Produce Flame build like this, I would badly want one or more of the following:

- Feats that can affect a SLA Produce Flame (Weapon Focus, Metamagic Spell-Like Ability - Intensify and Extend)
- Clear rulings on whether the spell creates weapon effects in which one can invest her powers
- Additional attack options for once my Produce Flame attacks are expended

I'd be cautious to use a Produce Flame Divine Hunter gnome. Even using Extra Gnome Magic, that gives you 4 shots per level per day. The more you invest in your Flame attacks, the worse you'll be once they burn out. And you explicitly can't use Deadly Aim on touch attacks (like those from Produce Flame), nor can you Intensify the ability (no such feat for SLAs), nor can you really add an ability modifier to the damage. So even if your DM rules to allow you to Divine Bond and even Smite with the attacks, you'll probably be dealing considerably less damage than you would with arrows.

And it's all Fire damage, so most of your dangerous foes (evil outsiders, red dragons) are immune or heavily resistant.

[Enochi]

Ugg missed that you can't use deadly aim with it. That hurts a good bit.

[Fax Celestis]

Can you trade down a ranged touch to a ranged attack the way you can trace a melee touch to an unarmed strike?

[Deophaun]

Produce flame is an odd duck in that it's not actually a touch spell:

Effect: Flame in your palm
Instead, it creates a locus on your body (in your palm, specifically) that can be used to deliver a touch attack. It doesn't matter how many hands or claws you have (and tentacles are right out), you're only going to get a single attack per round per spell casting unless you use your iteratives, because that flame only exists on one of your hands/natural weapons.

[Firebug]

In pathfinder you can take the extra gnome magic feat which lets you use the spells you get from your gnomish magic an additional 3 times. So would let you use produce flame 4 times a day.

Extra Gnome Magic only applies to your 0th level gnome spell-like abilities.

If you have a feat, trait, or other ability that changes your racial 0-level spell-like abilities to other 0-level spells, this feat applies to them instead.

[Enochi]

Well this is a write off then. Oh well.