How to get more AC?

[TheCrowing1432]

AC is one of the things in DND I never really understood on how to increase other then "put on better armor" but once you hit full plate, how do you increase ac?

[Wacky89]

your cleric/wizard can buff you.

Some feats helps:
Combat Expertise
Protection Devotion

Magic items:
amulet of natural armor +1-5
ring of protection +1-5
weapons with defending enchantment

[TheDarkDM]

Here's a good place to start. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus)

[Rubik]

It's easy to add more weapons to your repertoire, so just add defending to all of them, followed by a Chained Greater Magic Weapon.

Two standard weapons (or a weapon and shield spikes), five poison rings on each hand, two gauntlets, a braid blade, knee blades, boot blades, elbow blades, and armor spikes, for starters. Then you have slightly more esoteric weapons, such as a warforged slam, a mouthpick weapon, and a tail scythe/tail club. In addition, if you take one level in monk or are psionic and take Tashalatora, you can use one of various means to turn your unarmed strike into a defending weapon, as well.

And then we have armor, shield, chahar-aina, and dastana bracers, all of which can benefit from a Chained Magic Vestment.

[TheDarkDM]

It's easy to add more weapons to your repertoire, so just add defending to all of them, followed by a Chained Greater Magic Weapon.

Two standard weapons (or a weapon and shield spikes), five poison rings on each hand, two gauntlets, a braid blade, knee blades, boot blades, elbow blades, and armor spikes, for starters. Then you have slightly more esoteric weapons, such as a warforged slam, a mouthpick weapon, and a tail scythe/tail club. In addition, if you take one level in monk or are psionic and take Tashalatora, you can use one of various means to turn your unarmed strike into a defending weapon, as well.

And then we have armor, shield, chahar-aina, and dastana bracers, all of which can benefit from a Chained Magic Vestment.

That's also a good way to get a DMG hurled at you.

[Rubik]

That's also a good way to get a DMG hurled at you.Even at epic levels?

Oh, and levels of monk (or a monk's belt) grants +Wis to AC, too.

[KingSmitty]

my current method involves dex and con, and is unarmored so no penalties
some levels of barbarian plus one level of fist of the forest for con to ac reaching close to 30 ac without trying hard
best part is barbarian rage stacks with the fist of the forest's trance so the increase in con and dex both boost ac as well. add in some natural armor and/or mage armor for extra ac

[KillianHawkeye]

There are lots of ways to get AC besides wearing armor!

I'll assume that you start out with the best armor you can wear while still taking full advantage of your Dexterity score. After that, you start adding magical bonuses. Once your armor is magical, the most cost effective strategy is to start collecting other types of bonuses through magic items like a Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor (because buying a +1 ring or amulet costs less than upgrading your +1 armor to +2). Of course, there are always shields, but not everybody can or wants to use them. And of course at some point you can upgrade to a mithril version of a heavier kind of armor.

So now you have your four basic bonus types for AC (armor, shield, deflection, and natural armor). There's also size bonuses (obviously linked to your creature size) and dodge bonuses, but I don't think you can get those from items so easily. You can keep upgrading these, for a while at least, but eventually you'll have to branch out for other bonus types (luck, insight, and even sacred or profane) but these are more rare and more expensive to acquire. I can't really say off the top of my head what's the best way to get the more esoteric AC bonus types, but I'm sure somebody else can help with that.

[TheDarkDM]

Even at epic levels?

Oh, and levels of monk (or a monk's belt) grants +Wis to AC, too.

Obviously that's fine at epic levels, but c'mon Rubik. The original question was on what there is besides armor to boost AC. No offense to TheCrowing1432, but AC buffing is pretty much the lowest end of optimized play. If he's unfamiliar with it, I doubt he wants answers that are only appropriate for epic games that presupposes a Magic Weapon Mart.


There are lots of ways to get AC besides wearing armor!

Of course, the real secret is that Miss Chance is superior to AC in every way.

[Rubik]

A psychoactive skin of proteus is a good investment at higher levels. It provides size bonuses, Dex bonuses, dodge bonuses (through the Dodge feat, if you can find it as a racial bonus feat somewhere), and natural armor bonuses.


Obviously not, but c'mon Rubik. The original question was on what there is besides armor to boost AC. No offense to TheCrowing1432, but AC buffing is pretty much the lowest end of optimized play. If he's unfamiliar with it, I doubt he wants answers that are only appropriate for epic games that presupposes a Magic Weapon Mart.He asked, and I gave a perfectly valid answer. He doesn't have to use all, or even most, of the weapons suggested, but he's perfectly capable of using a few to boost his AC exactly as high as he thinks it should be.

[TheDarkDM]

He asked, and I gave a perfectly valid answer. He doesn't have to use all, or even most, of the weapons suggested, but he's perfectly capable of using a few to boost his AC exactly as high as he thinks it should be.

Fair enough.

[Curmudgeon]

It's easy to add more weapons to your repertoire, so just add defending to all of them, followed by a Chained Greater Magic Weapon.

Two standard weapons (or a weapon and shield spikes), five poison rings on each hand, two gauntlets, a braid blade, knee blades, boot blades, elbow blades, and armor spikes, for starters. Then ...
That's a lot of wasted effort, because only one type of Defending weapon will give you a bonus which stacks:
Defending

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.

[Vogonjeltz]

A psychoactive skin of proteus is a good investment at higher levels. It provides size bonuses, Dex bonuses, dodge bonuses (through the Dodge feat, if you can find it as a racial bonus feat somewhere), and natural armor bonuses.

He asked, and I gave a perfectly valid answer. He doesn't have to use all, or even most, of the weapons suggested, but he's perfectly capable of using a few to boost his AC exactly as high as he thinks it should be.

Technically it wasn't valid because you have to use the weapon to get the bonus. So only up to two of those weapons could be used.

[Rubik]

That's a lot of wasted effort, because only one type of Defending weapon will give you a bonus which stacks:Note that most of my suggestions were swords. And defending can be added to any weapon type, since there aren't any restrictions on it.


Technically it wasn't valid because you have to use the weapon to get the bonus. So only up to two of those weapons could be used.You're using them. Just because you're not attacking with them doesn't mean you're not using them. You're using the AC bonus, after all.

[Vogonjeltz]

You may want to reread the defending property.

Irony alert!

"As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn."

[Rubik]

Irony alert!

"As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn."You quoting it doesn't work against my stance at all. You realize this, right?

[SinsI]

Here's a handy Armor Class Guide http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Armor_Class_Guide

[Vogonjeltz]

You quoting it doesn't work against my stance at all. You realize this, right?

The ability says using the weapon. If you are saying that doesn't mean making an attack than you are wrong.

[eggynack]

The ability says using the weapon. If you are saying that doesn't mean making an attack than you are wrong.
He obviously is arguing the thing you're claiming is wrong. You may need to provide some evidence for the thing you think is wrong being wrong, if you want to prove that it's wrong.

[Ferronach]

don't forget that you can enchant your shields and armor with +1, +2, +3... this all helps :) there are also exotic armors and materials which help.

[TheCrowing1432]

Obviously that's fine at epic levels, but c'mon Rubik. The original question was on what there is besides armor to boost AC. No offense to TheCrowing1432, but AC buffing is pretty much the lowest end of optimized play. If he's unfamiliar with it, I doubt he wants answers that are only appropriate for epic games that presupposes a Magic Weapon Mart.



Of course, the real secret is that Miss Chance is superior to AC in every way.

Both miss chance and AC just give the opponent benchmark numbers on the dice to bypass in order to hit you. They are most of the time the same.

Miss Chance can only go up to 50% if you use displacement (unless theres an enchantment that gives you 100% miss chance I am unaware of, but if there is, there has to be drawbacks)

[TheCrowing1432]

There are lots of ways to get AC besides wearing armor!

I'll assume that you start out with the best armor you can wear while still taking full advantage of your Dexterity score. After that, you start adding magical bonuses. Once your armor is magical, the most cost effective strategy is to start collecting other types of bonuses through magic items like a Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor (because buying a +1 ring or amulet costs less than upgrading your +1 armor to +2). Of course, there are always shields, but not everybody can or wants to use them. And of course at some point you can upgrade to a mithril version of a heavier kind of armor.

So now you have your four basic bonus types for AC (armor, shield, deflection, and natural armor). There's also size bonuses (obviously linked to your creature size) and dodge bonuses, but I don't think you can get those from items so easily. You can keep upgrading these, for a while at least, but eventually you'll have to branch out for other bonus types (luck, insight, and even sacred or profane) but these are more rare and more expensive to acquire. I can't really say off the top of my head what's the best way to get the more esoteric AC bonus types, but I'm sure somebody else can help with that.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you.


A psychoactive skin of proteus is a good investment at higher levels. It provides size bonuses, Dex bonuses, dodge bonuses (through the Dodge feat, if you can find it as a racial bonus feat somewhere), and natural armor bonuses.

He asked, and I gave a perfectly valid answer. He doesn't have to use all, or even most, of the weapons suggested, but he's perfectly capable of using a few to boost his AC exactly as high as he thinks it should be.

I was more looking for a method that was constant and wouldnt reduce my to hit percentage or use up my free action.

Also, isnt that one free action for one weapon?

[Hiro Protagonest]

They are most of the time the same.

Um, no, not at all. They are completely different except in the sense that they're static numbers. You don't interact with them the same way.

As for that thing about Defending and swords? I tried arguing about that with him long ago. I'm just going to guess that's the reason he's Curmudgeon, and that in his campaign he gives swordsages x6 skill points at level 1.

[Rubik]

Both miss chance and AC just give the opponent benchmark numbers on the dice to bypass in order to hit you. They are most of the time the same.

Miss Chance can only go up to 50% if you use displacement (unless theres an enchantment that gives you 100% miss chance I am unaware of, but if there is, there has to be drawbacks)But miss chances remain constant for zero additional input. 50% is 50% no matter how high the enemy's attack bonus may be, whereas that +1 ring is immediately negated as soon as the enemy gains +1 to its attack bonus. Not to mention that stacking miss chances is both easy and relatively inexpensive, especially compared to the Christmas tree of different items you need to buy to keep your AC competitive (Chained Greater Magic Weapon and stacked defending weapons notwithstanding).


I was more looking for a method that was constant and wouldnt reduce my to hit percentage or use up my free action.You can get multiple free actions per round. Breathing, talking, activating one or more defending weapons all take up no actual time whatsoever, since they overlap with each other and with your other actions. Basically, the only limit you've got on free actions is however many the DM restricts you to.


Also, isnt that one free action for one weapon?See above.

[Oddman80]

Curmudgeon - as always, you have made a valid RAW argument for it only applying to swords. This seems most likely a case of sloppy writing and bad editing. What is a sword in 3.5? Long sword, great sword.... But shortsword? I guess it has the word sword in the name. What about a rapier? Nothing in SRD or PHB defines the rapier as a sword. The falchion says its a sword. It also says its essentially a two handed scimitar. But when you look at scimitar, there is no entry. No way to define it as a sword. A kukri is a curved blade shortsword - basically a machete. i would think a machete would count as much as a sword as a shortsword... But no. Sword has no meaning by raw. Slashing weapon is defined or piercing... But not "sword". Furthermore, the thing the Defending property does, has no relevance whatsoever to melee weapon type.

Moving on....
There are two equally valid ways to read the text of the defending property.


A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

The more restrictive reading is that you can only apply the enhancement bonuses from a weapon that you are going to strike with. While this is an understandable reading, and even one that makes sense by RAI given how so many other properties work in the game... I think it is not the RAW. It never says you need to use the weapon. It does however provide a chronology of events for in the the case that you DO wish to use the weapon in that round.

That bring us to the second reading. That the only restriction that is being placed on you, while wielding a weapon with the Defending property, is that if you want to benefit from the extra AC, you must announce that you are doing so (and thereby reducing your to-hit & damage output) prior to making even a single attack with the weapon in that round.

[Rubik]

Moving on....
There are two equally valid ways to read the text of the defending property.

The more restrictive reading is that you can only apply the enhancement bonuses from a weapon that you are going to strike with. While this is an understandable reading, and even one that makes sense by RAW given how so many other properties work in the game... I think it is not the RAW. It never says you need to use the weapon. It does however provide a chronology of events for in the the case that you DO wish to use the weapon in that round.Actually, you do have to activate the defending property before you can use it, so the "more restrictive" reading still allows you to use the defending property without using the weapon to attack. This argument against it might work if it actually said "attack" somewhere, but it doesn't.


That bring us to the second reading. That the only restriction that is being placed on you, while wielding a weapon with the Defending property, is that if you want to benefit from the extra AC, you must announce that you are doing so (and thereby reducing your to-hit & damage output) prior to making even a single attack with the weapon in that round.Which isn't actually incompatible with the first reading.

What if you call out that you're using the defending property, attempt to attack, and fail? For instance, what if your attack provokes (from Robilard's Gambit or summat) and you're disarmed? You attempted to make an attack and failed. Do you still get the AC bonus (which applies to the attacks from Robilar's Gambit) since you activated the property? If so, you didn't actually ever make the attack. If not, why not? You activated the property BEFORE attempting the attack, so you should receive it, since it's a separate action entirely.

[Oddman80]

Rubik... If it had not been clear - I had been in agreement with your interpretation.
I don't think you need to end up using the item. I do think it is clear though, that you must have the ability to use the weapon at the time of transferring the bonus to AC (i.e., no bag full of Defending daggers tucked away in your Backpack).

[SinsI]

Rubik... If it had not been clear - I had been in agreement with your interpretation.
I don't think you need to end up using the item. I do think it is clear though, that you must have the ability to use the weapon at the time of transferring the bonus to AC (i.e., no bag full of Defending daggers tucked away in your Backpack).

So, can you use a Dancing Defending weapon?

[KillianHawkeye]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you.

Glad I could help! I know a lot of folks on these boards will fall over themselves trying to tell people how "best" to go about something, but I could tell you were after a simpler answer.

[Rubik]

Rubik... If it had not been clear - I had been in agreement with your interpretation.
I don't think you need to end up using the item. I do think it is clear though, that you must have the ability to use the weapon at the time of transferring the bonus to AC (i.e., no bag full of Defending daggers tucked away in your Backpack).Ah. Okay. I definitely agree with that.

[Oddman80]

So, can you use a Dancing Defending weapon?

Yes. Of course. However that would be a really poor combination of magical properties, as you could not take advantage of them simultaneously. While dancing, it attacks on its own. You are not considered to be wielding it, which is why it does not threaten squares for attacks of opportunity. As such, the defending property is all but useless. Until you grab ahold of it again, you cannot transfer any of the bonus to AC.

There is one small glimmer of benefit to the combo though. During the rounds it is dancing, it attacks on the same initiative order as you. So, as long as it attacks first, you could - on YOUR turn take hold of the dancing weapon as a free action, transfer the bonus to AC, then make your attack. So in essence, for that one round, you could get an attack in before transferring the bonus, and then attack again.

Like I said... Its barely a glimmer of benefit compared to all the other combos you could make with a total of +5 bonus worth of weapon enhancements.

[LTwerewolf]

So, can you use a Dancing Defending weapon?

I would rule nope.


As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon.

However it does go on to say


In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.

Which says to me that if someone does something to the weapon, it's considered attended, but it's not really used by you until you grab it again. Therefore the two can't be used simultaneously.



There is one small glimmer of benefit to the combo though. During the rounds it is dancing, it attacks on the same initiative order as you. So, as long as it attacks first, you could - on YOUR turn take hold of the dancing weapon as a free action, transfer the bonus to AC, then make your attack. So in essence, for that one round, you could get an attack in before transferring the bonus, and then attack again.


Doesn't work, because if you grab the weapon, it can't dance for 4 rounds, so you'd only get the benefit once every 4 rounds.

[Necroticplague]

Another way to increase AC is to go fishing around for +x stat to AC. Fist of the Forest gives you CON to AC, Monk gives you WIS, Battledancer gives you CHA, being incorporeal gives you CHA (deflection, unlike rest of these, which are untyped). My personal favorite road to high AC is Ghost with a level of Battledancer, Monk, Sorceror, with Precocious Apprentice and Ascetic mage feats. That's CHA to AC 3 times, so now just stack your CHA as high as possible. There's a Magazine template that reduces your CON, but gives you more CHA. Since you have CON as a non-ability...

[Gwendol]

Deepwarden gives CON to AC. Why is this good? Unlike DEX, armor don't limit CON bonus to AC.

[Curmudgeon]

Deepwarden gives CON to AC. Why is this good? Unlike DEX, armor don't limit CON bonus to AC.
Of course, many DMs treat Stone Warden as a complete replacement of CON for DEX in all things armor-related, which means you will have a Maximum Constitution Bonus for your armor.

[Vogonjeltz]

Actually, you do have to activate the defending property before you can use it, so the "more restrictive" reading still allows you to use the defending property without using the weapon to attack. This argument against it might work if it actually said "attack" somewhere, but it doesn't.

There is no 'before using' time frame if it never comes to pass that the weapon is used. In other words: The condition is impossible to fulfill if no attack is made with the weapon.

[Sith_Happens]

A dusty rose prism ioun stone will give you a +1 insight bonus to AC for 5000 gp. It won't take very long for this to be cheaper than your next point of armor/shield/deflection/natural armor bonus.


There is no 'before using' time frame if it never comes to pass that the weapon is used. In other words: The condition is impossible to fulfill if no attack is made with the weapon.

You still need to offer some sort of citation or other proof that the only way to "use" a weapon is to attack with it. What if I'm using it to pick my teeth?

[Necroticplague]

You still need to offer some sort of citation or other proof that the only way to "use" a weapon is to attack with it. What if I'm using it to pick my teeth?

Or using it to increase my AC, thus extending my lifespan?

[Rubik]

There is no 'before using' time frame if it never comes to pass that the weapon is used. In other words: The condition is impossible to fulfill if no attack is made with the weapon.A free action is a separate action from an attack action. If the defending property said "as part of an attack action" or made any reference whatsoever to actually attacking, you may have a point.

Alas.


Or using it to increase my AC, thus extending my lifespan?Exactly.