UMD: Emulating an alignment

[.Zero]

Let's say i craft myself a continuous custom magic item of greater visage of the diety usable 2/day. I'm chaotic neutral or true neutral. I also have the spell on my list obviously. Am i allowed to make a UMD check to activate the item? More specifically, i want to use the item two times per day and make an UMD check with DC 30 to emulate a good alignment, activate the item and get the benefit as a good cleric. Then i want to activate the item again and emulate an evil alignment this time and get the benefit as an evil cleric.
Can i do that?

The relevant skill text says:

Emulate an Alignment Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.

Now, how does exactly "only one alignment at a time" interferes with my intent? I emulated a good alignment first and an evil alignment later (i mean, i emulated two alignment but i did so two separate times), is this considered like emulating two alignment at a time? Can this work?

[GGambrel]

Short Answer: It wouldn't work in a game I was DMing, but it might in someone else's.

It seems to me that UMD would allow you to activate an item as if you had a different alignment, but not have a spell (or spell-like effect) affect you as though you had a different alignment. In this case using a scroll (for example) of Greater Visage would affect you as if you had your own alignment (if neutral... no effect I guess, or player's choice).

It is unclear to me what you mean by "continuous" and then say "usable 2/day" though. I think that most items with continuous spell effects don't require "use" to have an effect. I doubt that "charges per day" in the guidelines for creating magic items was meant to be combined with "continuously active" items; that would oddly make certain items cheaper for saying that they could be used only once all day per day. If the item had a continuous effect of Greater Visage on the wearer, then you could make a UMD check once per hour to gain the benefit as though you had the alignment of your choice, as per the rules of UMD.

I think that from the wording of UMD it is pretty clear that your suggested course of action goes against the rules as intended (RAI). I further believe that such action would also go against the rules as written (RAW), but others may interpret things differently. Still, it wouldn't be allowed in a game I was DMing.

[Raven777]

I concur with @GGambrel's interpretation. Use Magic Device overcomes restrictions on using the items themselves. It doesn't allow one to trick spell effects. One wouldn't be able to UMD their way out of an Unholy Blight, for example. You might also want to bring your question to the 3.5 RAW Q&A stickied at the top of the board (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367727-Simple-Raw-Thread-for-3-5-28) and see what's their take on it?

[.Zero]

Short Answer: It wouldn't work in a game I was DMing, but it might in someone else's.

It seems to me that UMD would allow you to activate an item as if you had a different alignment, but not have a spell (or spell-like effect) affect you as though you had a different alignment. In this case using a scroll (for example) of Greater Visage would affect you as if you had your own alignment (if neutral... no effect I guess, or player's choice).

If you're neutral you get no effect from greater visage.
If a UMD check to emulate an alignment doesn't let you fake your alignment to affect spell effects, then it's usefulness is very limited. My point of view is completely the oppositite of yours, because i can see that the skill was designed for this kind of things. It's still a DC 30 check after all. It was surely not intended to grant this kind of buffs, but this is just another example of players taking advantage of poorly written rules.

While writing, a new question has come into my mind. Let's say you are chaotic neutral or true neutral. You somehow purchase a scroll of greater visage crafted by an evil cleric. You use it. Which benefit will you get? Is the answer so obvious? I don't think so. The fact is that greater visage checks the alignment of the recipient of the spell. What i see in this case is that the spell's text doesn't change if that scroll is made by a good or an evil cleric. Its effects are based only on the alignment of the one that activates the scroll. That's why i think it can be done.


It is unclear to me what you mean by "continuous" and then say "usable 2/day" though. I think that most items with continuous spell effects don't require "use" to have an effect. I doubt that "charges per day" in the guidelines for creating magic items was meant to be combined with "continuously active" items; that would oddly make certain items cheaper for saying that they could be used only once all day per day. If the item had a continuous effect of Greater Visage on the wearer, then you could make a UMD check once per hour to gain the benefit as though you had the alignment of your choice, as per the rules of UMD.

This probably comes from my ignorance on how to craft custom magic items. What i wanted to say is that i want to craft a magic item of greater visage whose effect lasts all day, thus making it continuous, per the formula 9spell level*17minimum caster level*2000constant, leading to an impressve cost of 306000, which is reduced in half if i craft it = 153000. Now i want to activate this item 2/day and i multiply its cost per 2/5 resulting in a more reasonable cost of 122400 = 61200 for crafting. The problem is that i really don't know if this can be done. If it is not, then it means that i have to craft two different items of continuous greater visage for a total crafting cost of 306000, which is just too much.


I think that from the wording of UMD it is pretty clear that your suggested course of action goes against the rules as intended (RAI). I further believe that such action would also go against the rules as written (RAW), but others may interpret things differently. Still, it wouldn't be allowed in a game I was DMing.

Why not? I think it's quite flavorful, depending on who uses this little trick. In my world, every Lilitu and Ur-Priest do it. What's better for them than getting insane power by fooling dieties?


I concur with @GGambrel's interpretation. Use Magic Device overcomes restrictions on using the items themselves. It doesn't allow one to trick spell effects. One wouldn't be able to UMD their way out of an Unholy Blight, for example. You might also want to bring your question to the 3.5 RAW Q&A stickied at the top of the board (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367727-Simple-Raw-Thread-for-3-5-28) and see what's their take on it?

I think the question is more of a "simple raw" thing. It seems to me that this is at least a gray area not covered explicitly by the rules, so i thought it would be better to open a new thread.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's say i craft myself a continuous custom magic item of greater visage of the diety usable 2/day.
That's an impossible specification. Either it's continuous, or it's usable twice a day. It can't be both of those things.

[.Zero]

Ok, that's fine. So i have to craft two different items, resulting in a boatload of money i don't want to spend for such a thing.

Anyways, my question still remains unanswered. Can i fake my alignment when i use an item of greater visage to get the benefits as a good cleric and as an evil cleric?

I also have a second question. Let's say i want to cast greater visage and i am chaotic neutral or true neutral. I will get no benefits. Is there even a way to fake your alignment in this case? What I'm looking for now are some spells, abilities, class features etc. that let me count of a given alignment for the purpose of getting benefits from spells and, why not, PrCs. Does such a thing even exist?

[Segev]

The magic item creation rules are actually a touch more flexible than we sometimes treat them as being. An item need not strictly be casting the spell-as-written as if it or its wielder were the spellcaster and its wielder was the target (though it can). Technically, magic items can be a little looser in how they represent the application of their magic.

In this case, what you want to do is not design a magic item that "casts Visage of the Deity." You want a magic item which, when used, gives the effects of that spell. You would craft this item with one alignment or the other in mind, and it would then only be usable by a creature of that alignment (possibly having deleterious effects such as negative levels imposed upon those of the wrong alignment who try to use it). It would be priced as a continuous-use item, with a discount for being usable only by members of a particular alignment.

Because it is now a function of the item that it is usable by a certain alignment only, you could now UMD while emulating that alignment, and get the effect of the item.

So, for example, if you make the Gauntlets of the Good God as items which grant good wearers the good version of Visage of the Deity, you could emulate Good alignment with UMD to gain their benefits regardless of your true alignment. If you make Epaulets of the Evil Entity, you could UMD them while emulating an Evil alignment to gain their benefit regardless of your true alignment.

[Psyren]

Ok, that's fine. So i have to craft two different items, resulting in a boatload of money i don't want to spend for such a thing.

Anyways, my question still remains unanswered. Can i fake my alignment when i use an item of greater visage to get the benefits as a good cleric and as an evil cleric?

Yes, because the buffs by alignment are a "positive effect" - but you would probably have to take the item off and put it back on again to "switch." This is because continuous items don't have a separate "action" - they are activated by wearing them, much like a ring of protection. Therefore you make the UMD check as part of that "action."

Don't forget this rule as well: "If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour."

[LTwerewolf]

When crafting items, the spell works as when it was crafted. An evil cleric would get the evil version of the spell. A good cleric would get the good version of the spell. The same cleric can not make both without an alignment change which would be hard to justify. UMD doesn't let you change your alignment when creating items.

[Psyren]

When crafting items, the spell works as when it was crafted. An evil cleric would get the evil version of the spell. A good cleric would get the good version of the spell. The same cleric can not make both without an alignment change which would be hard to justify. UMD doesn't let you change your alignment when creating items.

It's kind of in a gray area though. It's not like you choose "Greater Visage of the Good Deity" when you cast or create it. You cast it, and then the effect scans you and changes based on what you are.

If a good cleric loots a scroll of Righteous Might from an evil one and later casts it, it will give him DR/evil, not DR/good.

[LTwerewolf]

The difference being spell completion vs spell trigger. I'd argue spell completion would be based off the one completing it, whereas spell trigger would be based off the one that made it.

[Chronos]

There is actually a hidden question, here: Visage of the Deity is a personal spell, and its effects depend on "your" alignment. But is the "you" here meant to mean the caster of the spell, or its target? Ordinarily, it wouldn't make a difference, because they'll be the same person... but there are ways to cast personal spells on others.

[Psyren]

The difference being spell completion vs spell trigger. I'd argue spell completion would be based off the one completing it, whereas spell trigger would be based off the one that made it.

I disagree, I see no reason why those two would be different. In both methods, the spell is not cast until you activate the item, and that is when it "checks you."

[LTwerewolf]

My argument is that the spell is based on the caster when it's cast. With a spell completion item, the spell is specifically called out as not having been complete. With spell trigger items, it's heavily implied that the spell has been completed and that you're simply activating the effect that the original caster would have bestowed. Since divine spells typically come from a higher power it would be based on the version that the higher power bestowed upon the cleric.

Ultimately I think it can be agreed that there's no clear RAW on the subject.

[Psyren]

Wands are not complete either though. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to choose what form your wand of polymorph will let you take, or what the orders will be for your wand of suggestion, or where your wand of fireball will detonate etc. Those things happen post-resolution.

I agree that it's not clear, but one thing we do know is that not all choices are made ahead of time by the item creator.

[Segev]

With any magic item, the one who activates it is by default considered to be "the caster" if it is emulating a spell which specifies effects based on the caster. This can be seen in wands and scrolls of Dominate or Charm, for example; it is the reader of the scroll or user of the wand who Charms or Dominates the target. The things which do not depend on who is activating the item are spelled out - CL and saving throw DC, mostly.

[The Grue]

To come at this from another direction: Generally, multiple castings of a spell don't stack, even if - and correct me if I'm wrong - said spell has multiple options. You can't, for example, polymorph yourself into a troll, then polymorph yourself into a dragon while still remaining a troll. If two spells have the same effect, whichever one is longer/greater takes priority. If a second casting of a spell has a different effect, the most recent takes priority.

That said, I don't know if the above is actually RAW. It's how I'd rule it if this were at my table but YMMV.

To come at it from yet another direction, if you could layer GVotD:G on top of GVotD:E, would the bonuses necessarily stack? Lesser visage states its cha bonus is an enhancement bonus, so if we assume that greater visage, which by RAW functions "as lesser visage except...", grants its bonuses as enhancement bonuses, then layering two castings gets you:


feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability)
batlike wings that allow you to fly at your normal speed (average maneuverability)
+1 natural armor
bite and claw attacks
low-light vision
darkvision out to a range of 60 feet
resistance 10 to acid, cold, electricity and fire
immunity to disease and poison, and a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison
damage reduction 10/magic.
spell resistance 25.
+4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha


All in all, only marginally better than picking Good or Evil.

[Curmudgeon]

To come at this from another direction: Generally, multiple castings of a spell don't stack, even if - and correct me if I'm wrong - said spell has multiple options. You can't, for example, polymorph yourself into a troll, then polymorph yourself into a dragon while still remaining a troll.
That's not the limitation which is at issue with Polymorph. The limitation there is that you can have only one form ("morph") with one body; your body is either in troll form or in dragon form, so the last casting "wins" and the previous casting becomes irrelevant. A spell like Bestow Curse can hit a target multiple times without conflict — but only if the effect (the curse) is entirely different in results than any other magical effect (curse) already bestowed. The reason multiple castings of a spell don't generally stack is because the limitation is in Combining Magical Effects (Player's Handbook, page 171), not combining spells specifically, but most spells can only produce a single effect and thus the magical effect and the spell which produces that effect are interchangeable.

Anyway, the effect of Greater Visage of the Deity is specific to a chosen deity.
As you end your prayer, you can feel the hand of your deity upon you. Your appearance reflects her divine power, and ... With Craft Wondrous Item the item crafter makes all decisions about the item properties. This is different from spell completion items (scrolls), where the user finishes the casting and makes the final spellcasting decisions. So a custom wondrous item duplicating Greater Visage of the Deity would be for the crafter's deity, the crafter's alignment, and the crafter's CL (or less, but not less than 17, the minimum for the spell). Someone activating such an item with Use Magic Device could certainly use Emulate an Alignment to get the item to function, but it would only function with the properties built into it.

You're really talking about two different magic items with different properties. These items may use Greater Visage of the Deity as their magical crafting requirement, but would not have all the characteristics of this particular spell unless they were crafted by two different spellcasters. But then, properties of any custom magic item are always to be negotiated with your individual DM, so this is nothing special.

[Chronos]

And note, of course, that the function of a magic item can also be completely different from the spell needed to craft it. A flaming sword, for instance, requires Fireball from the crafter, even though it's a smaller amount of damage with no area of effect.

[Lord of Shadows]

2 more coppers on the pile...

The Skill Use Magic Device allows you to fool a magic item into passing whatever test it has (if any) in order to use it. As the SRD says, it makes you seem "as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment." But it's all in relation to activating the device to get it to function even though you should not normally be able to do so.

If you UMD to successfully activate an item, it releases the power within the item. It casts its spell, or begins whatever it was designed to do, which is separate from just getting it to activate. Your UMD does not carry over to the spell, or whatever else, the item does. All UMD does is help you activate ("use") the item. There is a reason UMD is a Class Skill only for Bards and Rogues in 3.x (although PFRPG added some more).

The item itself is merely a delivery method for whatever power the item holds: spell, effect, or whatever. Another way to think of it is like layers of security. Defeating the "security" of the item with UMD gets it to function. Then the spell, or whatever it does, comes online and begins to look for values to complete its variables, if any, such as a valid target. The spell Visage of the Deity, and its derivatives, targets only Good or Evil Clerics. In order for a Neutral character to benefit from the spell, they would need something that allows them to seem as if they were either a Good or Evil Cleric to a spell targeting parameter. This does not fall within the limits of UMD, and so the spell fails on a Neutral character.

Think about if your CN or TN cleric were to have Visage of the Deity in memory, and some PC or NPC were to somehow trick you into casting it. UMD would not help, and the spell would fail since you do not meet the parameters.

That said...

One way around this is if you somehow had an item that was a continuously functioning (like Bracers of Defense or Belts of Giant Strength) non-stop Visage of the Deity. This would bring the effect under the control of UMD, and would require the hourly check mentioned in UMD's description. Considering that Visage is a 1 round per level spell of significant power, it would seem highly unusual to have a continuous use item of the same ability. But, to each their own...