5 hydras vs. 5 lvl 6 PCs

[Dalebert]

At first, I only saw two of them and I assumed that was all of them. I thought "Oh, crap! TWO hydras?" It wasn't just that there were 5 hydras. Things were also complicated by not being able to see them from inside the church we were in so we had to wade out into their midst in order to fight them. No blasting or arrows from inside.

And we killed them but only barely. No casualties. Just a ninja down but stabilized. Several people were darn close to going down and the gunslinger was nearly out of ammo.

Found out afterward that it was a nightmare and didn't really happen. We were "supposed" to be soundly and quickly slaughtered by them. When we killed the last one, we "woke up". The DM was shocked that it didn't work out as he had planned. It was intended to be a nightmare that we couldn't possibly "survive".

My witch slumbered 3 of them that eventually woke up but not until our gunslinger had taken one down and two more were near death. We spent the whole session fighting them and the DM was really frustrated because that wasn't supposed to happen.

[Red Fel]

Found out afterward that it was a nightmare and didn't really happen. We were "supposed" to be soundly and quickly slaughtered by them. When we killed the last one, we "woke up". The DM was shocked that it didn't work out as he had planned. It was intended to be a nightmare that we couldn't possibly "survive".

Murder your DM.

Now, I'm not just cross because he planned for the PCs to lose an encounter. Nor for the fact that he then retconned it out of existence because it wasn't the outcome he wanted. That cheeses me off, but it doesn't take the cheesecake.

No, what really grinds my gears is that it was All Just a Dream (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream). Seriously, that is one of the worst and most overused retcon tropes in the history of reset buttons. He could have at least tried to come up with something creative to express that it never happened, if he absolutely had to hit reset on that encounter. (You'd better have gotten xp for it, at least, or that's some serious crap.) But seriously, just a dream? The lack of anything resembling an attempt at creativity, it just makes me livid. It makes me furious.

It makes me see purple.

[eggynack]

Murder your DM.

Now, I'm not just cross because he planned for the PCs to lose an encounter. Nor for the fact that he then retconned it out of existence because it wasn't the outcome he wanted. That cheeses me off, but it doesn't take the cheesecake.

No, what really grinds my gears is that it was All Just a Dream (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream). Seriously, that is one of the worst and most overused retcon tropes in the history of reset buttons. He could have at least tried to come up with something creative to express that it never happened, if he absolutely had to hit reset on that encounter. (You'd better have gotten xp for it, at least, or that's some serious crap.) But seriously, just a dream? The lack of anything resembling an attempt at creativity, it just makes me livid. It makes me furious.

It makes me see purple.
The DM didn't retcon stuff. The dream was always intended to be a dream. It was just intended to be some variety of portentous nightmare or some other plot device. The players actually did stop the thing that the DM wanted to happen from happening, and that result was accepted. The dream as plot device thing itself isn't a thing I'm the biggest fan of though.

[Ratatoskir]

Murder your DM.

Now, I'm not just cross because he planned for the PCs to lose an encounter. Nor for the fact that he then retconned it out of existence because it wasn't the outcome he wanted. That cheeses me off, but it doesn't take the cheesecake.[/COLOR]

I don't think the dream thing was a retcon. It appears it was originally planned to be a dream.

[Rhunder]

Personally, I would have rewarded players for staving off a death scenario. Like you each woke up with a magical item or something in your pocket. That's just badass in my opinion.

As long as it was always meant to be a dream, I think that's fair. Id double check the players item, like Gunslingers ammo to make sure its not gone or anything. Good on you and good on the group.

[Dalebert]

In his defense, it was always just a dream. I think he simply expected it to be over a lot quicker, with us dead but not really dead, and then waking up.

Also in his defense, I'm guilty of the same thing. In my game, the PCs happened upon a device, a piece of a relic that gives the PCs elaborate visions to help them find the rest of the pieces of the relic. It's a key element of the overall plot arc of the game. The visions are essentially a little alternate reality where they see into the future in order to learn something about finding the other pieces but that future doesn't really happen. This was their first instance.

Same thing--the PCs were supposed to be soundly defeated and taken prisoner by the drow only so they could learn that the drow were in possession of another piece of the relic. But when it started dragging out, I cut it short and said "You guys aren't going to beat these guys" and I quickly summarized the rest of the scenario up until the vision ended. In MY defense, they weren't defeating the bad guys. They were just fleeing when the way to flee had been blocked. At most it would have bought them a little more time before being captured.

I did feel kind of bad about it. I don't like railroading the PCs, but at the same time I realize that we're telling a story together and this sort of thing can be a dramatic element of stories sometimes. And it wasn't a retcon. It was planned from the start. And when I railroad, I try very hard to make it brief so they can get back to having a real role in their own destinies.

I admit to being kinda pissed in this case though. This battle railroading took the entire night. He ended up giving us treasure when he hadn't planned to and yes, he did give us "XP". We don't actually keep count. He just levels us arbitrarily at a fairly generous rate but we had just leveled so we will probably level after one more game.

[Spore]

That reminds of the one time we astral projected in Abaddon to kill an CR 18 Deacon of War with our 10th level group. It was pretty fun although we died after slaying the foe (to his summons). Now if your DM had more system progress (I'm not judging) he would've made a real nightmare.

Stuff that the PCs really fear. Creatures immune to your own attacks, and five separated (you see your comrades but the ninja can't dispose the creature the witch is facing) small and quick fights. Not a 3 hour long fight.

[Dalebert]

I'm beginning to think there's no such thing as a quick fight in D&D/PF.

[gooddragon1]

I'm beginning to think there's no such thing as a quick fight in D&D/PF.

4e minions have 1hp each.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Whoever sent that nightmare at you guys must be feeling some serious backlash from the utter failure at mind-magicking. Quick, before they recover, press onward to victory!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Seriously? 5 hydras?


I'd have sent you a single optimized Advanced Miasma Hydra with 12 extra HD for the same CR. Why?

1) Moar HP. Specifically 3 times moar.
2) Moar AC. Specifically 5 points moar.
3) Moar saves. Specifically 8 points moar.
4) Moar defense. Specifically DR 24/- and Spell Resistance 28.
5) Moar breath. Specifically Cloudkill, from 12 heads. Every 1d4-2 rounds due to Breath Recovery.




That would be a nightmare to remember.

[nedz]

I'm not a huge fan of cut scenes, but — If it's a Dream, make it a Cut Scene
Otherwise you just end up running a pointless combat.

[emeraldstreak]

Seriously? 5 hydras?


I'd have sent you a single optimized Advanced Miasma Hydra with 12 extra HD for the same CR. Why?

1) Moar HP. Specifically 3 times moar.
2) Moar AC. Specifically 5 points moar.
3) Moar saves. Specifically 8 points moar.
4) Moar defense. Specifically DR 24/- and Spell Resistance 28.
5) Moar breath. Specifically Cloudkill, from 12 heads. Every 1d4-2 rounds due to Breath Recovery.




That would be a nightmare to remember.

now thats a worthy challenge

[Blackhawk748]

Seriously? 5 hydras?


I'd have sent you a single optimized Advanced Miasma Hydra with 12 extra HD for the same CR. Why?

1) Moar HP. Specifically 3 times moar.
2) Moar AC. Specifically 5 points moar.
3) Moar saves. Specifically 8 points moar.
4) Moar defense. Specifically DR 24/- and Spell Resistance 28.
5) Moar breath. Specifically Cloudkill, from 12 heads. Every 1d4-2 rounds due to Breath Recovery.




That would be a nightmare to remember.

Ok, where did i put my Sorc/Walker in the Waste.......................

Seriously that would be the only character i think ive ever had that could take that on. Also its the only one ive had that made it to lvl 16 lol

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In his defense, it was always just a dream. I think he simply expected it to be over a lot quicker, with us dead but not really dead, and then waking up.

We don't actually know this, we only have his word on it. We don't meen to sully the honor of your friend if they're absolutely trustworthy and would never lie about their game OOC, even if they'd just been embarassed by a poor estimation of your parties abilities.

True or not it's a bad storytelling tool that is made ten times worse by putting it in the framework of the D&D ruleset. Vision quests like you did can be decent and come down to how well their handled.

Anyway, good job with those hydras. I came in thinking this would be a "OMG Halp!" thread and my advice would be exactly what you did. You should send your DM this way for some advice on balancing encounters.

[Twilightwyrm]

So...did your DM at least award you guys XP for defeating that encounter? I mean, sure it didn't technically happen so you didn't technically expend any resources on it, but you also didn't get any treasure, and besides processing stuff in dreams is one of the most important parts of learning and retaining information.

This being said, a DM with a deft touch could have turned this into a great little "No Fate" scenario right out of Terminator 2, except in this case you beat up the nuclear bomb.

[Alent]

So...did your DM at least award you guys XP for defeating that encounter? I mean, sure it didn't technically happen so you didn't technically expend any resources on it, but you also didn't get any treasure, and besides processing stuff in dreams is one of the most important parts of learning and retaining information.

This being said, a DM with a deft touch could have turned this into a great little "No Fate" scenario right out of Terminator 2, except in this case you beat up the nuclear bomb.

Yeah, you definitely should have gotten XP for that insanity.

Seconded on the deft touch. I simply would have fudged the saves on the hex to keep things horrifying and upped the nightmare fuel with things like individual perceptions being different, the hydra beginning to stretch and elongate unnaturally while the lighting and weather changed inexplicably, and occasionally had three to four heads sprouting back to replace one missing one, occasionally having the faces of previously defeated NPCs on them.

... Y'know. Make it obvious that this was a horrific nightmare.

[Eldaran]

I'm not a huge fan of cut scenes, but — If it's a Dream, make it a Cut Scene
Otherwise you just end up running a pointless combat.

I agree with this. It makes no sense that the DM didn't just say "You have a dream that you leave the church, outside are the waiting figure of 5 horrific hydras. You feel yourselves being ripped to shreds by their ravenous maws, then awake in a sweat." That conveys the same message, without wasting time in a pointless and unfun combat.

[Spore]

I'm beginning to think there's no such thing as a quick fight in D&D/PF.

All melees or 2/3 casters with a small amount of spells speeds up the game incredibly. Clerics who don't know their prepared spells, sorcerers who take 20 minutes to pick one spell to cast or ludricous amounts of essentially worthless minions that still get rolled individually do that.

If you roll percent to hit, have prepared players and prepared encounters speed up the game a lot.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yeah, you definitely should have gotten XP for that insanity.

Seconded on the deft touch. I simply would have fudged the saves on the hex to keep things horrifying and upped the nightmare fuel with things like individual perceptions being different, the hydra beginning to stretch and elongate unnaturally while the lighting and weather changed inexplicably, and occasionally had three to four heads sprouting back to replace one missing one, occasionally having the faces of previously defeated NPCs on them.

... Y'know. Make it obvious that this was a horrific nightmare.

And now I want to sent a couple of Pseudonatural Aberrant Blooded Hydras at my PCs. Haven't decided whether it should be in a dream or not.

[Dalebert]

We got x.p. and treasure. He hadn't planned on giving any treasure for the encounter which he expected to end quickly and brutally. I'm still baffled as to how we got treasure. We woke up far from where we had the fight as if the previous day hadn't even happened and as if we had never found the church. There was treasure nearby. I suspect there's more going on that we will eventually figure out like a weird merging of nightmares and reality.

We had been having nightmares in the church prior and were unable to wake up until we had a full 8 hours of sleep.

[arclance]

I'm still baffled as to how we got treasure.
I have had the idea of having a odd deity in my setting if I ever DM again.
He spends most of his time watching adventures like we watch TV.
He also ocassionally leaves "rewards" for being especially entertaining.
Almost no one is aware of his existance so things occasionally appear in places or ways that defy explanation in the setting.

Must have been something like that.

[eggynack]

I agree with this. It makes no sense that the DM didn't just say "You have a dream that you leave the church, outside are the waiting figure of 5 horrific hydras. You feel yourselves being ripped to shreds by their ravenous maws, then awake in a sweat." That conveys the same message, without wasting time in a pointless and unfun combat.
I think the played dream could have theoretically worked, depending on what it's being used for. Probably wasn't done correctly though. The proposed alternate solution, a massive super-hydra, probably would have worked better, both from a successful quick-kill and a cool factor perspective, but personally, I'd tend towards an infinite army of hydras, extending out in all directions. Really gives that feeling of futility, and probably leads to a fast TPK because you're usually going to be getting a whole mess of full attacks that aren't really mitigated by save or X spells.

[emeraldstreak]

And now I want to sent a couple of Pseudonatural Aberrant Blooded Hydras at my PCs. Haven't decided whether it should be in a dream or not.

May I suggest...

...the 50-50 plane.

[Twilightwyrm]

May I suggest...

...the 50-50 plane.

So what is that, Schrodinger's plane? You are both dreaming and not dreaming until you observe the outcome?