PsyBomb's Guides to the Akashic Mysteries!

[PsyBomb]

Hello Playgrounders!

I have always been a lover of the Incarnum subsystem. Thus, when I heard about Ssalarn's port of it to Pathfinder, I knew I had a new best friend in Pathfinder. The results did not disappoint. These guides started as a way for me to compile notes and experiences I had during playtest, but eventually got codified and expanded into what you see now. I hope they help you as much as they have helped me organize myself during the testing.

Vizier:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s_nhfamh0Uaqxmqe7u7in61OWT3lhAhVDEC9WQZ6jcc

Guru:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oSSJqPPNSfOQvNM0H2p9Aqeu2kejSRoujzJzU0gwOdM

Daevic:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1klD7v0-tfZeKm3oOyD12jOxPTBKv5_9Tc9Y6QIPAz6I

As more hits, I will post the guides for them. Any and all commentary is more than welcome here, this was originally the result of one person's analysis and playtesting, so it is always possible for me to have missed something. Happy playing!

EDIT: Bloodforge and Teamwork feat sections are completed! Next on the list is Items, to include weapon/armor enchantments. There are a few out there that significantly change the paradigm of the class using it, enabling or enhancing builds and providing options when needed. I might do a 1-2 sentence note about standard equips, but the intent is more to save the readers from having to dig through the PFSRD for gems. The section will be ongoing, and will expand greatly once Ssalarn puts out the Akashic Items.

If there are any requests, please feel free to post them in this thread.

[Novawurmson]

I was starting up on a guide myself. Guess that's a bit unnecessary, huh?

I may submit a build or advice.

Edit: My first idea is that the incarnate actually made a pretty decent melee fighter with the right build. Going to try to put together something.

Edit: Essence of the Immortal really is godlike (or even a bit unbalanced), isn't it? Making a level 12 Vizier, so that's 28 free HP right off the bat.

Holy cow (no pun intended), horns of the minotaur looks great for a melee vizier. Replace BAB with vizier level? Heck yes.

Hrm. The guru doesn't really have much in the way of melee veils, but it does get a bunch of essence. Maybe feats will be its salvation.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Now I'm just hoping some enterprising fifth-party goes and rebuilds the Occultist / Vizier PrC which, back in 3.5, allowed Binder/Meldshaper combos. Goodness that was an exciting time.

Love the guide! PF is really filling out the wacky alternate casting mechanics, and meldshaping was always one of my favourite dip-able techniques for making unpredictable and entertaining builds in ye olden days.

[stack]

Manyshot is exclusive to bows, so useless for a handcannons build. Deadly aim/chakra targeting are awesome for handcannons, useless for any of the other ranged options since deadly aim does not work with touch attacks (firearms get a special exception in their rules). I would update the feat description accordingly, since anyone not using handcannons shouldn't touch them, instead of anyone other than rulers wanting them.

[Novawurmson]

Nooo pummeling charge requires BAB +12, which means there's no way a straight-classed vizier can ever take it. Even the catfolk one is BAB +10.

Hrm...maybe I can get it psionic lion's charge somehow. Akashic Charge looks like my best hope for a melee vizier.

Edit: Wildclaw chakra might work.

Also, for anyone else considering a melee vizier, don't. Ranged vizier with Hand Cannons+Chakra Targeting would be vastly superior.

[stack]

Hopefully future veils will expand the melee side a bit.

[PsyBomb]

Stack: Thanks for the tip-off, I'd missed that detail. Corrected now, and added some info to the Elf section.

Novawurmson: I would say I'm sorry to steal your thunder, but I'm not :smallbiggrin:. If you get a decent build going, I'll be more than happy to add it to the guide and give you credit. Don't forget about Shape Veil to grab offensive Veils off the other lists.

[Novawurmson]

Hopefully future veils will expand the melee side a bit.

I assume the daevic in particular will have some. I'm just trying to force the system to do something it isn't designed to - test its limits.

[Ssalarn]

I assume the daevic in particular will have some. I'm just trying to force the system to do something it isn't designed to - test its limits.

Daevic has more melee and natural attack veils than either of the other classes (possibly more than both combined). Guru doesn't have a lot of melee veils, but he does have good melee options in all of his Philosophies.

**EDIT**

Also, I hope you don't mind Psybomb, I linked up this guide over in the product thread (http://paizo.com/products/btpy99ri/discuss?Akashic-Mysteries-WorkinProgress#30) on the Paizo forums.

[Novawurmson]

Don't forget about Shape Veil to grab offensive Veils off the other lists.

Yeah, but Vizier is the only one out in PDF form right now, so I was trying to limit myself to that.

So far, I think Storm Gauntlets on the wrist and Horns of the Minotaur on the head are the only real melee veils for the vizier - there's plenty of good utility options like flying, teleportation, skill bonuses, concealment, etc. that can help in melee, but not straight attack and damage boosts.

As far as feats go, Essence of the Immortal is laughably overpowered - there's absolutely no reason any vizier shouldn't take it, much less a melee vizier. Akashic Charge looks like the best receptacle because it increases attack AND damage on all charge attacks, and a level 12 vizier (the point I'm building it for) can invest 5 essence into it. Wildclaw Chakra is good, but doesn't increase damage, and the only natural attack it gets baseline is the Horns of the Minotaur.

Right now, the only way I think it would work is with a wand of a polymorph effect to get natural attacks and pounce.

[Ssalarn]

Yeah, but Vizier is the only one out in PDF form right now, so I was trying to limit myself to that.

So far, I think Storm Gauntlets on the wrist and Horns of the Minotaur on the head are the only real melee veils for the vizier - there's plenty of good utility options like flying, teleportation, skill bonuses, concealment, etc. that can help in melee, but not straight attack and damage boosts.

As far as feats go, Essence of the Immortal is laughably overpowered - there's absolutely no reason any vizier shouldn't take it, much less a melee vizier. Akashic Charge looks like the best receptacle because it increases attack AND damage on all charge attacks, and a level 12 vizier (the point I'm building it for) can invest 5 essence into it. Wildclaw Chakra is good, but doesn't increase damage, and the only natural attack it gets baseline is the Horns of the Minotaur.

Right now, the only way I think it would work is with a wand of a polymorph effect to get natural attacks and pounce.

I'm going to go ahead and admit that I probably went overboard with Essence of the Immortal; given that the Vizier is kind of a "Tier 3 wizard" with comparatively short range abilities, and akasha is basically life energy mixed with arcane power, it seemed like an appropriate option as kind of a secondary defense; yeah, a melee focused vizier is going to get hit, but he can get hit more than a caster should really be able to. I think the biggest problem is that it's a fairly accessible feat; I may need to look into either toning it down or making the prereqs more restrictive.

[PsyBomb]

EotI is very strong, but I don't think "Laughably Overpowered" is the right term. Pure HP is only one defense, basically. Granted that it makes Toughness obsolete on characters that gain 11+ points of Essence over the career, but Toughness isn't particularly impressive to begin with.

I shows up VERY strongly the earlier you get it (I have an Akasin Guru with 18 starting HP, for example), but past level 10 or so it isn't nearly as relevant.

[Novawurmson]

I'd recommend halving the benefit. It'd still be 150% better than Toughness at level 20 for the vizier before any akashic feats/items/racial options/etc.

Edit: Along with halving the benefit, give it +1 essence. That way, it's worse than Toughness at level 1, even at 2, sliiiightly better until 11, and then increasingly better the rest of the way.

[Ssalarn]

Reposting as it may be relevant to the guide:
It's been brought to my attention that in an attempt to be concise, I may have obscured what I was actually trying to convey.
Eldritch Insight has a line that states: "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane spell-caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats and abilities". It should read: "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats, and for other caster level based abilities, such as determining your caster level when using a stave". This change will be added to the .pdf once we've heard more feedback from our customers and have noted any other clarifications that may need to be made.
Thank you to everyone who has purchased this so far, and thank you to everyone who has taken the time to give thoughtful and constructive feedback to make sure that we can give you the highest quality products.

[Ssalarn]

@Psybomb

I noticed you marked Essence Expertise as orange, so I thought I'd share this little combo:
You know when the nastiest time for a vizier to use Combat Expertise/Essence Expertise is? When his Light Whip activates. Essence Expertise automatically offsets his Combat Expertise penalties (up to the invested amount), so a vizier who uses this combo can trip an opponent with a 15 foot AoO and simultaneously boost his AC, which will then last until the start of his turn when he gets his normal full attack bonus back for non-combat maneuver attacks. For a high level Vizier in the right circumstances that's an incredible defensive combo with virtually no downside. Even if all of your trip attempts fail, you've now got a powerfully boosted AC against the opponent(s) who triggered your Light Whip.

[Novawurmson]

Ok, Shape Veil (Wrathful Claws)+(Forcestrike Knuckles) really changed this build around.

Ok, you really want/need to fully pump three veils: Wrathful Claws, Forcestrike Knuckles, and Horns of the Minotaur. Storm Gauntlets can be pumped as well, but isn't as vital. You're going to need Twin Veil to simultaneously bind WC and FK, so that's three essential feats+Essence of the Immortal. The build starts looking like this:

Human - Essence of the Immortal
1 - Extra Essence
3 - Power Attack(?)
5 - Shape Veil (Wrathful Claws)
7 - Enhanced Capacity(?)
9 - Twin Veil
11 - Shape Veil (Forcestrike Knuckles)

The build currently does a lot of damage on-hit, but has pretty poor accuracy.

[PsyBomb]

@Ssalarn

Thanks for the clarification on Caster Level, I'll add it soon (along with a blurb about crafting I forgot to put after that Path).

As for Essence Expertise... unfortunately, you can only activate Combat Expertise when you make an attack action, and I don't think an AoO counts. You can have Expertise running if you actively use the Light Whip on your own turn, but otherwise it won't pop up on an AoO. Most Viziers won't be using their main actions to use the Light Whip, but I'll add the note for those that might.

If I'm wrong, please tell me, but I believe an "Attack Action" is the standard-action version, while an Attack of Opportunity is defined as "a single melee attack" according to the d20pfsrd.

[Ssalarn]

It's whenever you make an attack, just like Power Attack, so you can trigger it on an AoO.

***Edit***
I'm asking Mark Seifter for and official clarification due to the slight wording difference between Combat Expertise and Power Attack. In the meantime, assume that if for some inexplicable reason Combat Expertise doesn't work like its offensive counterpart Power Attack, that I'll be adding the following line to Essence Expertise "In addition, you may now choose to activate Combat Expertise anytime you are allowed to make an attack or combat maneuver." Based on their FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyv) regarding Sunder and conversations I've had with Paizo team members previously, I don't think it'll be necessary though.
What I've been told before, is that when it says that it must be used with "an attack or full attack action" it should be read "an attack, or full attack action" not "an attack action or full attack action".

[PsyBomb]

Thanks Ssalarn! I'll edit it up a notch, given how hard I sing the praises of Light Whip and this can give it +8 on top of the very powerful trip attempts.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks Ssalarn! I'll edit it up a notch, given how hard I sing the praises of Light Whip and this can give it +8 on top of the very powerful trip attempts.

The Vizier is really a very defensively focused caster; even most of his big offensive veils have defensive purposes. This is really intentional, allowing him to use a unique style of battlefield control and play completely differently from any other caster. Essence Expertise was really specifically intended for the Vizier, and Light Whip was kind of the goodie intended to go hand in hand (there's other tricks, but that's the one I use for my "sweeping through the unwashed masses" battle tactics).

[PsyBomb]

First update to the Vizier guide is up, about to also add the Melee Build with credit to Novawurmson

[Novawurmson]

First update to the Vizier guide is up, about to also add the Melee Build with credit to Novawurmson

Heh. It's not particularly good. Add a note that you're basically going to have to abuse the heck out of wands/djores to make the build work (using your class feature to spend essence for charges). Haste (attack bonus+extra attack), heroism (attack bonus), psionic lion's charge/monstrous physique II (pounce), hustle, etc. - you need a way to move+full attack, and you need attack bonuses; if you can get those two things through WBL, the build can work.

[PsyBomb]

Heh. It's not particularly good. Add a note that you're basically going to have to abuse the heck out of wands/djores to make the build work (using your class feature to spend essence for charges). Haste (attack bonus+extra attack), heroism (attack bonus), psionic lion's charge/monstrous physique II (pounce), hustle, etc. - you need a way to move+full attack, and you need attack bonuses; if you can get those two things through WBL, the build can work.

It'll actually work a lot better once the Archetypes document hits final release, the Akashic Warrior archetype of the Fighter class can pick up Akashic feats when it gets bonuses, meaning two levels greatly abbreviates the time to come online (and incidentally gives Heavy Armor). Never going to be as good as what the class is designed for, but it's at least decent.

[Ssalarn]

Hey everyone,
So, when we did our big correction of the .pdf, it looks like some comparisons were done with an out of date version of the Vizier doc. There's around 5 items requiring errata, so I'll be posting those up with their corrections as soon as possible so you all have good working information to play with. I'll note the errata in all relevant threads and it will be updated in the main .pdf for purchasers to redownload no later than the compiled release.

[Ssalarn]

Hey everyone, here's that errata log for the Vizier I promised you. These changes will all be added to the .pdf before compilation or print:

pg. 4 - Eldritch Insight says "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane spell-caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats and abilities"; it should read: "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats, and for other caster level based abilities, such as determining your caster level when using a stave".

pg. 5 - Under the Path of the Crafter entry add the following line after the first sentence: "Due to this connection, the crafter is able to use Spellcraft to identify items as though using detect magic. This effect only applies to identifying magic items and grants the crafter no other benefits of the detect magic spell.

pg. 5 - Path of the Crafter should read "The vizier gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his class level on all skill checks made as part of the crafting process, and can bypass the normal restrictions for spell prerequisites on spell trigger and spell completion items by adding 3 + spell level to the crafting DC".

Page 6: Replace the first two paragraphs in Aura of Subjugation with
"Aura of Subjugation (Su): At 1st level the ruler’s aura of subjugation has a range of 30 feet and all creatures other than the ruler within its area of effect take a -1 penalty to their Will saving throws and a -2 penalty to all Sense Motive checks. He may choose to exclude a number of creatures equal to his Intelligence modifier from the effects of this aura.
At 5th level the ruler’s control over his aura of subjugation improves and the penalty to Will saving throws increases to -2 and the penalty to Sense Motive checks increases to -4."

pg. 13 paragraph 3 - Add the line "Unless otherwise noted, investing or reallocating essence to or from a valid receptacle is a swift action.

pg.18 - Coward's Boots should read "Class: Guru, Vizier Slot: Feet

pg. 18 - Cuirass of Confidence cuts off in the middle of the Essence description. It should read "For each point of Essence invested in this ability you gain a +1 insight bonus to Diplomacy checks against any creature that has been affected by this Veil’s primary ability within the past 24 hours."

pg. 18 - Dark Lord's Ring of Essence-Binding should direct you to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary, not the Core Rulebook. Change the 2nd sentence of the Essence entry to " When at least 2 essence is invested, the zombie gains the Disease and Death Burst abilities of the Plague Zombie." Add the following after the entry for the plague zombie template "The zombie rot inflicted by this creature dissipates after 24 hours, or when you reshape this veil. Any plague zombies created as a result of being infected also die as the force animating them dissipates." Add the following line to the bind entry "Because the dark energies animating this creature are magical simulations, this Wight cannot create spawn."

pg. 20-21 - Hand Cannons description entry should read as follows "Massive cylinders of whirling energy surround the arms of anyone wielding this potent Veil. While the Hand Cannons are manifested you gain the ability to make a special ranged weapon attack with a range increment of 20 feet that deals 2d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage. You can attack with this ability as many times in a round as your base attack bonus allows, and this ability can be modified by feats and effects which normally affect ranged weapon attacks, like Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. You must have at least one free hand to attack with this veil, and you cannot attack with this veil in the same round you attack with any other weapon. The wearer may choose to use their veilweaver level in place of their base attack bonus to determine their to-hit and other abilities of this veil."

pg. 25 - Hand bind for Riven Darts should read "Chakra Bind (Hands): [ V2] Binding this veil to your Hands slot allows you to fire an additional dart for each point of essence invested in this veil. Each dart requires its own attack roll; the darts can be aimed individually, but no more than two darts may target any one creature."

pg. 26 - Remove the word "melee" from the Storm Gauntlets wrist bind entry.

[stack]

Wait, did handcannons target touch in the final playtest? Why the change?

[Ssalarn]

Wait, did handcannons target touch in the final playtest? Why the change?

They did target touch in the final playtest, but that was lost during our last minute fix that we had to do when an older version of the playtest was accidentally used to spot check fixes.

[PsyBomb]

I never saw that change to Hand Cannons and probably would have spoken against it. Cannon builds are already the highest damage out for the class and didn't need the boost. Sure, it was the overall lowest of the three optimals, but it already had two big accuracy boosts going for it (using Veilweaver level instead of BAB and the Essence effect) and didn't fall THAT far behind.

I'll update the guide for the changes, but this just went sky-blue and became the slot default. Pity, because Ditchdigger for the intended theme more closely.

The rest of the changes are awesome, though, especially the crafting bit.

[Ssalarn]

I never saw that change to Hand Cannons and probably would have spoken against it. Cannon builds are already the highest damage out for the class and didn't need the boost. Sure, it was the overall lowest of the three optimals, but it already had two big accuracy boosts going for it (using Veilweaver level instead of BAB and the Essence effect) and didn't fall THAT far behind.

I'll update the guide for the changes, but this just went sky-blue and became the slot default. Pity, because Ditchdigger for the intended theme more closely.

Hmmm...

It's not too late to retract that if you guys think it's going to be an issue. I was lining it up with what I showed in the final playtest doc, but if that wasn't widely seen...


Serious facepalm moment here, Jeremy had the correct version in layout, and my errata was the item that we fixed. Sorry guys, too much going on.
This is why it's so awesome having all of you to proof me before something permanent and crazy happens.

[Anlashok]

I don't think they're that big of a deal targeting touch. The damage isn't significantly problematic, you aren't going to win any sort of DPR Olympics by a long, long shot.

If there's any issue it's probably more other damage options being less than impressive.

[PsyBomb]

Hmmm...

It's not too late to retract that if you guys think it's going to be an issue. I was lining it up with what I showed in the final playtest doc, but if that wasn't widely seen...


Serious facepalm moment here, Jeremy had the correct version in layout, and my errata was the item that we fixed. Sorry guys, too much going on.
This is why it's so awesome having all of you to proof me before something permanent and crazy happens.

That's what we're here for, boss :) Well, that, plus playing around in an awesome subsystem :)

Glad you posted that before I worked out the math for adjusted DPR comparisons.

[stack]

The change makes it easier to hit but gives you less attacks due to not effectively boosting bab. This also reduces deadly aim bonuses. Deadly aim doesn't work with non-firearm touch attacks, but the callout probably covers that, or at least conveys the intent.

[Ssalarn]

Speaking of subsystems and comparisons....

Come see me in the main product thread!


The change makes it easier to hit but gives you less attacks due to not effectively boosting bab. This also reduces deadly aim bonuses. Deadly aim doesn't work with non-firearm touch attacks, but the callout probably covers that, or at least conveys the intent.

Just to be clear, touch AC was a goof by yours truly. I was trying to rebreak something we'd fixed because it's Friday and I was rushing to get an errata out that I'd promised for Monday. This is my very important lesson not to ever do anything from memory, because memory is a jerk who loves lies by omission. The only change you should see there is the one noting that Hand Cannons work with feats and effects that normally work with ranged weapons.

[PsyBomb]

Vizier guide updated.

1) Includes a BFC build, courtesy of Ssalarn's many posts.
2) Added an Essence and Veil Choice section under the Veils introduction, suggested by Jaid of the Dreamscarred Press forums. Also adding similar bits to Guru and Daevic guides, for later on.
3) Some changes to account for Errata, including a Crafting section
4) Essence Expertise bumped to Yellow with a Light Whip explanation. Solo sim had a 6th-level Seer keep a Dire Bear off of him for 3 turns while he just killed it. Fun times. For reference, Light Whip had +13(level and Int)+6(Essence)+3(Expertise)+2(Coordinated Maneuvers) for +24 against 30 CMD, and rolled twice due to Tandem Trip shared with a DLRoEB Zombie. Cannon was empty, and had PBS/Precise/Rapid as his regular feats.

[PsyBomb]

Guru Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oSSJqPPNSfOQvNM0H2p9Aqeu2kejSRoujzJzU0gwOdM) is up

Changed Eye of the Oracle text in the Vizier guide to reflect playtesting, and also adding the one erratum I missed (Crafters being able to use Spellcraft to identify at all times as if under a Detect Magic)

[stack]

Thought had occurred to me that combining matyr's toga with stone giant's girdle gives a very deep healing pool early in the game. You should never run out of HP so long as you get time to let your HP regenerate. Obviously the waits get longer and longer as levels and HP pools go up. You are your own ally, so trading THP for HP is awesome.

I almost used that as the starting combo for our PBP game, but opted for immaculate touch instead. Not sure why I did, though it turned out to be a good choice with the whole fatigue thing, which was a happy coincidence.

[PsyBomb]

I am starting the sloooow process of going back through my feat and veil ratings to update them. Some few are changing ratings after further testing in non-theoretical environments, and many of the veils are getting tactical notes and usage tips.

I will probably be adding some discussion sections towards the end of each guide and adding a couple of extra build stubs, as the holiday season allows. Notable one is a greatly-expanded crafting section.

[Ssalarn]

Thought had occurred to me that combining matyr's toga with stone giant's girdle gives a very deep healing pool early in the game. You should never run out of HP so long as you get time to let your HP regenerate. Obviously the waits get longer and longer as levels and HP pools go up. You are your own ally, so trading THP for HP is awesome.

I almost used that as the starting combo for our PBP game, but opted for immaculate touch instead. Not sure why I did, though it turned out to be a good choice with the whole fatigue thing, which was a happy coincidence.

Yeah, I knew there wasn't going to be a dedicated healer in the initial release, so I tried to set the Guru up as a competent back up healer. Martyr's Toga and Stone Giant's Girdle probably (especially at low levels) toe that "unlimited healing" line, but I figured that since you're still effectively bounded by the amount of time you have to charge that pool it isn't really unlimited healing and shouldn't upset WBL expectations too much. I'm still playing around with the best options to combine Guru and Cleric; there's supposed to be a PrC aimed at that pairing but I'm finding that the balancing act between keeping Guru veilweaving and Cleric spellcasting equally relevant is very delicate. Guru has a lot of places to put a (relatively) limited pool of essence and cutting into that essence progression can hurt your over-all power level pretty quickly. I'm thinking that playing on some options with Channel Energy is going to be the best way to sort that out.

[PsyBomb]

I'm still playing around with the best options to combine Guru and Cleric; there's supposed to be a PrC aimed at that pairing but I'm finding that the balancing act between keeping Guru veilweaving and Cleric spellcasting equally relevant is very delicate. Guru has a lot of places to put a (relatively) limited pool of essence and cutting into that essence progression can hurt your over-all power level pretty quickly. I'm thinking that playing on some options with Channel Energy is going to be the best way to sort that out.

I'm going to pull this bit of discussion back to the main thread, but the design space of a dedicated Akashic Channeler is mighty tasty... couple of ideas popped up into my head when you mentioned it

[stack]

Quibble on the Guru guide, Gamla being large means a reach weapon threatens 15-20 feet, since it double natural reach, not just increasing it by 5. Minor correction to one number listed in the race section.:smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

Vizier who spends a feat on Shape Veil: Armory of the Conquerer at level 20 approaches a max of 480 Solo DPR assume all hasted attacks land.
Twin Veil shaping the wrist slot with Armory and Hand Cannons with Greater Wristwraps equipped (assuming you take Expanded Capacity which you will) gets you 16d6+5 base damage, Deadly Aim at level 20 gives +12 damage, and Chakra Targetting gives you +7 damage as well as +7 attack when enemies are within 30 feet.
(16*3.5+5+12+7) * 6 (4 BAB + Haste + Rapidshot) = 480 average damage. As this is only a moderate increase in investment over a standard Hand Cannon build, I would highly recommend it.

[PsyBomb]

Vizier who spends a feat on Shape Veil: Armory of the Conquerer at level 20 approaches a max of 480 Solo DPR assume all hasted attacks land.
Twin Veil shaping the wrist slot with Armory and Hand Cannons with Greater Wristwraps equipped (assuming you take Expanded Capacity which you will) gets you 16d6+5 base damage, Deadly Aim at level 20 gives +12 damage, and Chakra Targetting gives you +7 damage as well as +7 attack when enemies are within 30 feet.
(16*3.5+5+12+7) * 6 (4 BAB + Haste + Rapidshot) = 480 average damage. As this is only a moderate increase in investment over a standard Hand Cannon build, I would highly recommend it.

If your opponent is energy-resistant, that is actually the highest DPR build for the Vizier. If not, adding 12d8 energy damage to each shot via Storm Gauntlets works out stronger.

Great thing about damage builds on a Vizier, though, is that it only uses about 2/3 of your feats and 1/3 of your Veils to get your top DPR out... and they are ludicrously good at researching opponents in order to pick the right combo for the encounter. You can have it both ways, just limited to one at a time.

[Mithril Leaf]

If your opponent is energy-resistant, that is actually the highest DPR build for the Vizier. If not, adding 12d8 energy damage to each shot via Storm Gauntlets works out stronger.

Great thing about damage builds on a Vizier, though, is that it only uses about 2/3 of your feats and 1/3 of your Veils to get your top DPR out... and they are ludicrously good at researching opponents in order to pick the right combo for the encounter. You can have it both ways, just limited to one at a time.

Combine them easily. Use Twin Veil for your hands and toss the best band on those, pick up another Improved Capacity, toss your +2 on the wrists. It burns ALL of your essence, but it's crazy strong.

However I can now top that damage build. It's not ranged but it is straight Vizier.
Play a Feelkha. Take Improved Natural Attack. Take Shape Veil for Armory. Craft a wand of Strong Jaw. Use Handwraps +3 on that Armory of the Conqueror. Enjoy tossing out 96d6 damage per attack.
Base 1d6, 13 size improvements (4 from the base receptical, 1 from INA, 6 from Armory, 2 from Strong Jaw) increase it as follows:
1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, 24d6, 32d6, 48d6, 64d6, 96d6

For the record 3 attacks at 96d6 averages out to 1008. Incredibly risky but the damage is insane.

[Ssalarn]

Combine them easily. Use Twin Veil for your hands and toss the best band on those, pick up another Improved Capacity, toss your +2 on the wrists. It burns ALL of your essence, but it's crazy strong.

However I can now top that damage build. It's not ranged but it is straight Vizier.
Play a Feelkha. Take Improved Natural Attack. Take Shape Veil for Armory. Craft a wand of Strong Jaw. Use Handwraps +3 on that Armory of the Conqueror. Enjoy tossing out 96d6 damage per attack.
Base 1d6, 13 size improvements (4 from the base receptical, 1 from INA, 6 from Armory, 2 from Strong Jaw) increase it as follows:
1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, 24d6, 32d6, 48d6, 64d6, 96d6

For the record 3 attacks at 96d6 averages out to 1008. Incredibly risky but the damage is insane.

Armory of the Conqueror and strong jaw both provide a virtual size increase and don't stack with each other, so that'll impact that a bit.

[Mithril Leaf]

Armory of the Conqueror and strong jaw both provide a virtual size increase and don't stack with each other, so that'll impact that a bit.

Is that an established ruling or a legally RAW Dev FAQ ruling?

Also since we're already using wands, let's just go ahead and use a dorje of expansion.

[Ssalarn]

Is that an established ruling or a legally RAW Dev FAQ ruling?

They both use the language "[the weapon] is treated as though it is X size categories larger than it actually is". If I have a medium claw attack and I treat it as 2 size categories larger than it actually is via Armory of the Conqueror, I'm treating it as huge. If I then cast strong jaw, I get to treat my (still actually medium) claw attack as two size categories larger than it actually is, which still just brings me to huge. You can generally only stack one actual size increase and one effective size increase.

[Mithril Leaf]

They both use the language "[the weapon] is treated as though it is X size categories larger than it actually is". If I have a medium claw attack and I treat it as 2 size categories larger than it actually is via Armory of the Conqueror, I'm treating it as huge. If I then cast strong jaw, I get to treat my (still actually medium) claw attack as two size categories larger than it actually is, which still just brings me to huge. You can generally only stack one actual size increase and one effective size increase.

I suppose that is indeed the most reasonable interpretation of RAW. At least I can keep my high damage by using a djore.

[PsyBomb]

Both of my posted guides have been updated to include newer races in the playtest document. Daevic guide is almost ready to release, as soon as Ssalarn puts up their new feats and the exact gains of the Dominance passion.

Next update, at the insistence of Lord_Gareth, is going to be Bloodforge material for these classes. My question is: do you guys want 100% reviews (all races and feats for each class), or a highlights reel (top 5 races per class, plus a few applicable feats each)?

Once that is done, I'll be going into equipment highlights.

[Lord_Gareth]

Both of my posted guides have been updated to include newer races in the playtest document. Daevic guide is almost ready to release, as soon as Ssalarn puts up their new feats and the exact gains of the Dominance passion.

Next update, at the insistence of Lord_Gareth, is going to be Bloodforge material for these classes. My question is: do you guys want 100% reviews (all races and feats for each class), or a highlights reel (top 5 races per class, plus a few applicable feats each)?

Once that is done, I'll be going into equipment highlights.

I, ah, also email'd you the link to the errata doc that I neglected earlier. Incidentally >.>

[Ssalarn]

Probably best to do a top 3-5 Bloodforge races for each class.

[Mithril Leaf]

Probably best to do a top 3-5 Bloodforge races for each class.

I second this sentiment.

EDIT: Looking at the races now, Half Hobgoblin (I'd probably go with a dwarf background) look pretty sweet for the Hand Cannon Vizier. Bonuses in just the right places plus free improved initiative is really nice.

EDIT 2: Well damn, I might actually have to play a disgusting elf born creature just for that sweet sweet Alicorn bonus: You get an additional maximum veil shaped.

EDIT 3: I have now mentally adapted the character to be a chaotic good vizier who expresses disdain of his predecessors for being a bunch of hippies who do nothing to actually help the world because despite their alleged virtues they just live in the woods letting the world move around them.

EDIT 4: Blinking Daevics have one of the best Alternative Favored Class bonuses of anything besides maybe the Half Elf Summoner. An additional 3 points of Passion Capacity is amazing.

[PsyBomb]

Yeah, that one is nuts. A few of them are, actually, I don't remember which but at least one gets extra Essence from Vizier.

[Mithril Leaf]

Yeah, that one is nuts. A few of them are, actually, I don't remember which but at least one gets extra Essence from Vizier.

Suqur blooded Aellar gives the vizier 6 bonus essence over twenty levels, plus a kick ass receptical.

EDIT: Ignore.

EDIT 2: Blinkling (Take Shadow Dog, Halfling Luck, and Wardog) Aberrant Aegis 2/ Vengeance Daevic 18.
Take Extra Customization once.
You have 5 natural attacks from Aegis, one from your race, 6 more from your class (Bind Bloody Shroud, Wrathful Claws, Armband of the Irked Elephant, and Daevic Aspect to your Passion. Independently bind Forcestrike Knuckles, Sea Drake Talons, Embrace of the Old Ones, and probably Tauric Brace or Behemoth Hide, whichever one improves your Bull Rushes.).
Each of those 12 attacks you do deals +16 force damage, +18 insight damage, and causes 9 bleed damage.

EDIT 3: You know what, we're going full DSP Optimized here. Drop the Talons, buy a pair of Boots of the Beast from Ultimate Psionics. Take Weapon Finess and Deadly Agility. You now use your Dex to damage and can grab another veil, maybe even that one which gives you a gore attack. +10 Dex Bonus at this level is a reasonable assumption. You get 13 attacks with +44 untyped bonus damage per hit, plus 9 bleed.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright, Vital Strike Daevic time.
Play as the aforementioned Shadow Lucky Wardog Blinkling. Your passion of choice is Wrath.
Buy one Boot of the Beast of the strongest type. It does 6d6 as the base damage. It is a natural weapon. Take Improved Natural Attack: Boot of the Beast. At level 20 you can Invest up to 9 Essence into your Passion. Take note that the recommendation of Enhanced Capacity is a poor one as you can't actually apply it to the Passion. Invest a full 9 Essence into your Passion, while having bound Armory of the Conqueror. Wear Handwraps of Essence +2 in your hand slot. Take the Vital Strike line.

You are basing your Armory on 6d6 base damage. You pick up 7 size increases, so you take the number of dice and size it up once, then double that number three times. You're now dealing 64d6 damage per hit. Greater Vital Strike makes that 256d6 base damage. This averages out to a cool 896 damage. As a standard action. For the cost of 4 feats and two slots. The rest of your resources are open to other Daevic things.

[PsyBomb]

Alright, Vital Strike Daevic time.
Play as the aforementioned Shadow Lucky Wardog Blinkling. Your passion of choice is Wrath.
Buy one Boot of the Beast of the strongest type. It does 6d6 as the base damage. It is a natural weapon. Take Improved Natural Attack: Boot of the Beast. At level 20 you can Invest up to 9 Essence into your Passion. Take note that the recommendation of Enhanced Capacity is a poor one as you can't actually apply it to the Passion. Invest a full 9 Essence into your Passion, while having bound Armory of the Conqueror. Wear Handwraps of Essence +2 in your hand slot. Take the Vital Strike line.

You are basing your Armory on 6d6 base damage. You pick up 7 size increases, so you take the number of dice and size it up once, then double that number three times. You're now dealing 64d6 damage per hit. Greater Vital Strike makes that 256d6 base damage. This averages out to a cool 896 damage. As a standard action. For the cost of 4 feats and two slots. The rest of your resources are open to other Daevic things.

Not sure if Armory will work on a natural attack. What DO know is that Enhanced Capacity will work on the Passion, since it goes onto any receptacle. You miscounted your size increases, but the extra two points of essence will put it back.

I'll ask Ssalarn, but if that's good to go you'll be doing over 2000 estimated DPR as single-strikes after everything is factored in. Here's hoping.

[Mithril Leaf]

Not sure if Armory will work on a natural attack. What DO know is that Enhanced Capacity will work on the Passion, since it goes onto any receptacle. You miscounted your size increases, but the extra two points of essence will put it back.

I'll ask Ssalarn, but if that's good to go you'll be doing over 2000 estimated DPR as single-strikes after everything is factored in. Here's hoping.


Enhanced Veil Capacity
Your capacity for channeling akasha allows you to maintain more essence in a single veil.
Prerequisites:​Con 15 or veilweaver level 7th.
Benefit:​When you shape your veils, choose one veil. Your essence capacity for that veil is increased by 1. Each time you shape your veils, you can change the veil that benefits from this feat.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. For each time you take this feat, you can apply its effects to one additional veil while shaping. You can’t apply this feat’s effects more than once to the same veil.

Do you mean this Enhanced Capacity?

Also: The Improved Natural Attack is the source of the 7th size increase.

[PsyBomb]

Do you mean this Enhanced Capacity?

Also: The Improved Natural Attack is the source of the 7th size increase.

Actually, I mean THIS (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/feats/enhanced-capacity) one.

Makes sense on the feat being counted, thought you were just referring to Veil bonuses. I'm building the sim to see what this will end up doing.

[Mithril Leaf]

Actually, I mean THIS (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/feats/enhanced-capacity) one.

Makes sense on the feat being counted, thought you were just referring to Veil bonuses. I'm building the sim to see what this will end up doing.

I had just looked it up in the Daevic playtest which was the most recent document, and it looked like an update. Or something. Sort of unclear.

Luckily we can just ask the dev: Ssalarn are those two different feats? Do they stack? Is one supposed to be the newer one?

[Ssalarn]

I had just looked it up in the Daevic playtest which was the most recent document, and it looked like an update. Or something. Sort of unclear.

Luckily we can just ask the dev: Ssalarn are those two different feats? Do they stack? Is one supposed to be the newer one?

Expanded Veil Capacity replaced the old Expanded Capacity, but the change was apparently missed during the Vizier release. Honestly, I didn't even catch it until this conversation.

[PsyBomb]

I thought it was the other way around. Used to be two feats (one for veils and one for feats), which got condensed into one that can affect any receptacle (including class features and magic items as well) in order to simplify it.

[stack]

I thought it was the other way around. Used to be two feats (one for veils and one for feats), which got condensed into one that can affect any receptacle (including class features and magic items as well) in order to simplify it.

I thought this as well and strongly prefer one general feat.

[Ssalarn]

I thought this as well and strongly prefer one general feat.

Whelp, let me go check the notes. It's possible I switched them around at some point during the Guru development. As most of you guys are aware, life has been kicking my ass through the length of this project, so it's very possible I screwed this one up.

[stack]

Whelp, let me go check the notes. It's possible I switched them around at some point during the Guru development. As most of you guys are aware, life has been kicking my ass through the length of this project, so it's very possible I screwed this one up.

No worries, that's what we're here for.

That and bombarding you with ill-conceived and half-baked unsolicited submissions. :smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

Aellar Gurus with Manyshot and Rapid Shot make surprisingly competent debuffers. Max out your gentle touch and Suqur receptical. Toss out nice strong debuffs to a bunch of enemies with a lot of added sublethal damage and high AC.

EDIT: Nevermind, I forget that attack actions in Pathfinder aren't actually the actions used to attack but a standard action. Lame.

EDIT 2: Sorry about the Favored thing, I accidentally clicked resolve instead of reply. I was attempting to say that the feats are Open Minded and Toughness.

[PsyBomb]

Aellar Gurus with Manyshot and Rapid Shot make surprisingly competent debuffers. Max out your gentle touch and Suqur receptical. Toss out nice strong debuffs to a bunch of enemies with a lot of added sublethal damage and high AC.

EDIT: Nevermind, I forget that attack actions in Pathfinder aren't actually the actions used to attack but a standard action. Lame.

EDIT 2: Sorry about the Favored thing, I accidentally clicked resolve instead of reply. I was attempting to say that the feats are Open Minded and Toughness.

Working on an Aellar Longbow build, actually, but not for Gurus. Viziers shaping Storm Gauntlets on the wrist along with their various other ranged combat bonuses and taking all those feats to their logical conclusions can do very unfortunate things to... well, everything that isn't energy-immune.

Anyway, I have put 5 Bloodforge races into each of the class writeups, and I found a few real winners for each. I will be putting the Daevic class guide up very soon, I just need to finish scrubbing it for the new update. Bloodforge feats are next, and then separate Teamwork Feat sections for Guru and Daevic. After all of that, I will be starting up equipment sections.

[Mithril Leaf]

Working on an Aellar Longbow build, actually, but not for Gurus. Viziers shaping Storm Gauntlets on the wrist along with their various other ranged combat bonuses and taking all those feats to their logical conclusions can do very unfortunate things to... well, everything that isn't energy-immune.

Anyway, I have put 5 Bloodforge races into each of the class writeups, and I found a few real winners for each. I will be putting the Daevic class guide up very soon, I just need to finish scrubbing it for the new update. Bloodforge feats are next, and then separate Teamwork Feat sections for Guru and Daevic. After all of that, I will be starting up equipment sections.

My issue with the Storm Gauntlets, Ditchdigger's Armlets, and Light Whip is that past level 10 or so they become increasingly ineffective. Resistance to at least one of the damage types of Storm Gauntlets is incredibly common and if something can't fly you can already just ruin it's day by attacking from midair.

[PsyBomb]

My issue with the Storm Gauntlets, Ditchdigger's Armlets, and Light Whip is that past level 10 or so they become increasingly ineffective. Resistance to at least one of the damage types of Storm Gauntlets is incredibly common and if something can't fly you can already just ruin it's day by attacking from midair.

Lots of situations where flight isn't an option, though, which makes Light Whip and Ditchdigger's gauntlets stay relevant significantly longer than you might expect. Storm Gauntlets, you're right on the resistance to at least one element being common... but the fact is that it deals three separate types of energy. Your damage might be reduced from it, but it will pretty much never be entirely ineffective.

You make good points, and they will be added to the Vizier guide. Very thankful for Veilshifting in many of these situations, though, since a bunch of flying enemies are much more easily bull-rushed into each other by the Stormcaller Band

EDIT: Went ahead and posted the Daevic link, it's close enough to release now. Still polishing a couple of things up, but 95% of it is set.

[CashanDraven]

One thing I noticed is that in the Daevic guide you listed enhanced capacity for your Passion, even though it says in the description that you cannot add feat specific feats to it. Perhaps it's just my misunderstanding on that part.

On some recommendations however, I disagree with your rankings. Such as the Feelkah, while they may not get a bonus to either Str or Cha, but a Con bonus isn't anything to scoff at, and the Int boost can help you grab a skill you would otherwise need to forget about.

Also, I think you are under valuing the power of the trunk. The slam is at least as good as the Alkqarn gore, and in fact the special abilities that it can be granted are very useful. Reach as a swift action is nothing to scoff at, especially for a Wrath. Disarm can be useful, and the grab ability can allow for some serious combat control, snatching up a squishy in the back behind his meat walls.

I feel you are valuing Chakra power a bit too high, it's certainly at least blue, but sky blue feels like a bit much. Seeing as you have to invest a large amount of essence into it to really get the best mileage out of it, and you're already essence starved.

Everything else seems pretty spot on, my only recommendation would be adding secondary colors for ranks to show their usefulness in specific situations. Such as Whirlpool Lash being at least blue in an aquatic campaign, since it would allow you a good enough swim speed. Also Sea Drake's Talons are at least blue for Vengeance Daevic's as having an additional 2 primary natural attacks on your bull rush is amazing.

[Lord_Gareth]

I want to say that I find the idea of a Dreige Daevic to be delightfully appropriate. The Children of Iron will have their revenge ^_^

[PsyBomb]

One thing I noticed is that in the Daevic guide you listed enhanced capacity for your Passion, even though it says in the description that you cannot add feat specific feats to it. Perhaps it's just my misunderstanding on that part.

On some recommendations however, I disagree with your rankings. Such as the Feelkah, while they may not get a bonus to either Str or Cha, but a Con bonus isn't anything to scoff at, and the Int boost can help you grab a skill you would otherwise need to forget about.

Also, I think you are under valuing the power of the trunk. The slam is at least as good as the Alkqarn gore, and in fact the special abilities that it can be granted are very useful. Reach as a swift action is nothing to scoff at, especially for a Wrath. Disarm can be useful, and the grab ability can allow for some serious combat control, snatching up a squishy in the back behind his meat walls.

I feel you are valuing Chakra power a bit too high, it's certainly at least blue, but sky blue feels like a bit much. Seeing as you have to invest a large amount of essence into it to really get the best mileage out of it, and you're already essence starved.

Everything else seems pretty spot on, my only recommendation would be adding secondary colors for ranks to show their usefulness in specific situations. Such as Whirlpool Lash being at least blue in an aquatic campaign, since it would allow you a good enough swim speed. Also Sea Drake's Talons are at least blue for Vengeance Daevic's as having an additional 2 primary natural attacks on your bull rush is amazing.

Expanded Capacity, there is dialogue about. Originally, the phrase was just intended to prevent you from double-stacking things by applying bonuses to both Passion and Passion Veil. Intent was to give Passions bonuses, but individual veils denied it. Need to see how that panned out in the final list of things, the line was written back during that debate.

Good point about the trunk, missed that it carried a slam for some reason. With Bloodforge assistance, that actually becomes the highest DPR option available (unless some things pan out with Mithril Leaf's truly insane Vital Striker idea)

Chakra Power got downgraded to blue, but for a slightly different reason. That helped, though.

Secondary or split colors, I didn't intend to do. They are currently accounted for in the descriptions. However, if I get time later on, I'll go back and indicate the splits.

Thanks for the commentary!

EDIT:

Starting in on the Bloodforge feats now. These seriously give a lot of useful options to just about anyone, if you have 2-3 feats to spare. Natural attacks, vision modes, resistances, flight, breath weapons, a few SLAs (including some really nifty ones), and Fast Healing are all on the menu to acquire now through your Feat slots. Saves Veil slots and some buffing requirements, and also opens up options.

[CashanDraven]

Another thing that I am unsure of, is the abilities added onto the Feelkah trunk, grab is obviously as the monster ability, but the other two are a bit vague. the reach property, is it treated now as a normal reach weapon, or does it just extend your reach? The disarm, again the same question. IF they work more like the monster abilities, it only strengthens the case for Feelkah.

[PsyBomb]

Another thing that I am unsure of, is the abilities added onto the Feelkah trunk, grab is obviously as the monster ability, but the other two are a bit vague. the reach property, is it treated now as a normal reach weapon, or does it just extend your reach? The disarm, again the same question. IF they work more like the monster abilities, it only strengthens the case for Feelkah.

Yeah, agreed. Keeping it at Blue for now until clarification, but they are quite solid.

Side note, I finished the Bloodforge feats, working on fleshing out all the new Teamwork Feats on the Vizier that have come out since I wrote the section, then I'll port it over to the Guru and Daevic (since I realized that they might have SLIGHTLY different priorities...)

[CashanDraven]

Yeah, agreed. Keeping it at Blue for now until clarification, but they are quite solid.

Side note, I finished the Bloodforge feats, working on fleshing out all the new Teamwork Feats on the Vizier that have come out since I wrote the section, then I'll port it over to the Guru and Daevic (since I realized that they might have SLIGHTLY different priorities...)

I might have to pick up this Bloodforge book, another you might want to look at is In the Company of Dragons via Rite Publishing. It is an excellent book and the dragons therein are strong choices for any class based off Cha. Not to mention the whole playing as a dragon part.

[PsyBomb]

I might have to pick up this Bloodforge book, another you might want to look at is In the Company of Dragons via Rite Publishing. It is an excellent book and the dragons therein are strong choices for any class based off Cha. Not to mention the whole playing as a dragon part.

I'll be mostly sticking to DSP and Radiance House for my 3PP, next targeted book is Spheres of Power :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the recommendation, though, I'll give it a look if I ever get the time and gaming cash open.

On the topic of the guides, I've finished up doing Teamwork feats for the Vizier. Now working on porting them over to Guru and Daevic. Serious question time, though. On the Guru, he doesn't get bonus Teamwork feats like Seers or Benevolence does. Should I review the Teamwork chains, or just stick to the ones with easier prerequisites that can be taken by the Collar of Skilled Instruction?

[stack]

Probably just ones for the collar unless something really jumps out.

[PsyBomb]

Teamwork sections are done. They came out a lot more similar than I had thought, which saved me a ton of time. Next up, though, is the hard part.

Items. This will include Weapon and Armor enchants.

I already have a few big ones, especially for Daevics (Belt of Mighty Throwing, Blinkback Belt). If you spot something that you think REALLY needs to be noted, please do not hesitate to tell me. My intent is to save players from hours of digging through the PFSRD for cool tricks or build-enablers.

[CashanDraven]

Teamwork sections are done. They came out a lot more similar than I had thought, which saved me a ton of time. Next up, though, is the hard part.

Items. This will include Weapon and Armor enchants.

I already have a few big ones, especially for Daevics (Belt of Mighty Throwing, Blinkback Belt). If you spot something that you think REALLY needs to be noted, please do not hesitate to tell me. My intent is to save players from hours of digging through the PFSRD for cool tricks or build-enablers.

Great job so far, a few things for weapon enchants for the Wrath's. Impact and Collision. Impact is a +2 bonus that makes the weapon hit as if it were one size category larger, perfect for the vital strike chain, but not something a Vengeance Daevic would scoff at either. Collision is a psionic enhancement that adds a flat +5 untyped damage for a +2. For most it seems a bit pricey, however again on Vengeance builds with all their natural attacks, that +5 will add up VERY quickly.

Pauldrons of the Bull are good for bull rushing, as are Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver. Seeing as monster CMD rises stupidly quickly, you really need those bonuses to bull rush.

[stack]

Might have to take a look at a zen archer monk dip on an akasin. Gets annoying prereqs out of the way and let's you go WIS-sad, so should have potential.

For guru feats, consider intuitive fighting. Blind fight isn't a terrible requirement and gurus get a source of bonus damage. Not as good as a soulknife with focused offense, but works for any philosophy and melee weapon. Good if focusing on saves more than damage, plus you aren't hosed by getting disarmed like when depending on a guided weapon. Guided would still be a good idea and belongs in the gear section.

[Deadkitten]

Eyes of the Hawkguard is not eligible for for shape Veil. It is a headband and body slot and thus, it does not qualify for the feat.

So no true seeing at level 12 for Daevics i guess.

[PsyBomb]

Eyes of the Hawkguard is not eligible for for shape Veil. It is a headband and body slot and thus, it does not qualify for the feat.

So no true seeing at level 12 for Daevics i guess.

Ouch, pity about that. Thanks for the spot, kills one of the bigger loopholes I thought was still there. I'll update it in the guide once I get home, typing this from a phone.

EDIT: Fixed, and thanks again.

[CashanDraven]

Also, has there been any clarification on Extra Capacity for the Daevic passion yet? It's certainly a grey area and can really change things if its a yes or no.

[PsyBomb]

Not yet. Ssalarn hasn't been on in a couple of days.

[Mithril Leaf]

Spheres of Power has a number of excellent buffs that can be made permanent by (preferable) a Fey Adept who invests talents into maximizing Illusions and Alteration. For example, at level 20 a Fey Adept will be able to grant 10 additional natural attacks assuming you don't really care about other buffs. It requires a Staff of Alteration +5 so that you get 1 (base) +5 (Caster Level) +1 (Greater Transformation). You also get 3 from your Fey Adept class features.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright new weapon based Vital Striker build, since the Natural Attack one might be removed as an option (also as far as I can tell it can't realistically be beat once optimized as you reach 512d6 damage per vital strike).
Instead we'll be using a Greatsword. An Impacting +5 greatsword specifically, with x2 Expansion on a Blinkling with the appropriate feat to count as small for squeezing and the powerful build one.
Essence in Armory is:
4+5+3+1=13
13-1=12
12/2=6
6+1=7
7 Size increases from Armory, 2 from an augmented Incarnated Expansion, 1 from powerful build, 1 from Impacting.
2d6*2^5=64d6
You get a full Greater Vital Strike off a bull rush, or you can just normally do it. This is the nice 256d6 damage that I did earlier, but I believe it should be totally legal going forward. It also doesn't use anything too special.

[Nyaa]

How do you get 13 capacity?

[Mithril Leaf]

How do you get 13 capacity?

A native capacity of 4, +2 from the Daevic Class features, Blinkling gives +3 as the max Favored Class Bonus, +1 from Enhanced Capacity, +3 from the wristwraps mentioned in the thread but not in a PDF yet.

[PsyBomb]

New chart put out in a Paizo FAQ kinda kills the DPR record attempts via Armory. Given the new progression (number of dice increases by 50%, not doubling on the split), even the 6d6 Talon doesn't break things as hugely.

...at least, not without the Mythic Vital Strike line...

[stack]

Wow, when did the vizier get 30 essence? I was about to report a typo in the guide.

Huh, my last playtest copy shows it that way too. Guess I've never built past level 6 or so and didn't pay attention to the later levels. Learn something new...

[PsyBomb]

Wow, when did the vizier get 30 essence? I was about to report a typo in the guide.

Huh, my last playtest copy shows it that way too. Guess I've never built past level 6 or so and didn't pay attention to the later levels. Learn something new...

Yeah, always been 30/20/10 for the three primaries. Viziers, especially Seers, can have over 80 places to put those 30 essence, so it really isn't as huge as it looks.

[stack]

Yeah, always been 30/20/10 for the three primaries. Viziers, especially Seers, can have over 80 places to put those 30 essence, so it really isn't as huge as it looks.

I understand the math of it, just didn't recall seeing it before. <shrug> I'm a low-level guy.

[Nyaa]

New chart put out in a Paizo FAQ kinda kills the DPR record attempts via Armory. Given the new progression (number of dice increases by 50%, not doubling on the split), even the 6d6 Talon doesn't break things as hugely.

...at least, not without the Mythic Vital Strike line...

Paizo - when FAQ needs a FAQ.

Read it again, one size increase bumps damage by two steps on their chart. End result is exactly the same as with natural attacks charts copied from 3.5 - two sizes double the damage.

The only weird thing is 1d10 step that IMO shouldn't be there.

[PsyBomb]

Paizo - when FAQ needs a FAQ.

Read it again, one size increase bumps damage by two steps on their chart. End result is exactly the same as with natural attacks charts copied from 3.5 - two sizes double the damage.

The only weird thing is 1d10 step that IMO shouldn't be there.

Feh, their instructions suck, then. Nevermind, and I'm glad you pointed that out BEFORE I went back and started recalculating damage sims. Thanks

[Mithril Leaf]

That's what you get for doubting me Psybomb! I'm working on a higher DPR build though. We'll see how high we can get damage when we shift into maximum overdrive.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright, now I've got a build for when you need to kill a Great Wyrm in two rounds or less, or your money back:

Standard Blinkling, swap out to get Halfling Luck, Shadow Dog, and Sharp Eyes.
Take 20 levels of Wrath (Justice) Daevic, putting 18 Favored Class bonuses into your racial option, as normal. Other two may as well go into HP.
Standard Incarnate double Expansion to bring you up to large size, take Mighty Frame to get Powerful Build (no prerequisites for a Blinkling nicely).
Purchase a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone that is keyed to the Double Hackbut.
Invest 10 points of Essence (AKA All of your pool) into your Passion while having Armory of the Conqueror bound.
Wear a +3 Chakra Wrap on your wrists.
Vital Strike with your Double Hackbut, before or after setting it up depending on circumstances.

With a total of 9 (large size, powerful build, 13 essence in Armory) size increases, your damage is:
Medium Base: 2d12 (4d6 for scaling purposes)
1: 6d6
2: 8d6
3: 12d6
4: 16d6
5: 24d6
6: 32d6
7: 48d6
8: 64d6
9: 96d6
Multiplied by 4 for Greater Vital Strike and you end with 384d6 damage as a standard action. This averages out to 1344 damage. Make sure you optimize your to-hit so that you land the blow. Wouldn't that be embarrassing.

There's another build which has the potential for more damage, but I'm not quite solid on the details of it yet.

EDIT: Alternatively just use a Fiend's Mouth Cannon, they're not as easy to reload but at least you don't get knocked prone for using it normally.

[PsyBomb]

Mithril Leaf, all I have to say is "OUCH". That's enough to kill anything in the book that has stats, and resolves against touch AC if you're close.

... we can increase that, too. It's just the standard shot. Martial Training for a good Boost and Stance out of Solar Wind or Tempest Gale, plus enchantments, plus other items, plus potential dips...

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright so theoretically if we were to grab the Ioun Stone and use it for the Bastard Sword, we could size up to a large Bastard Sword, make that an Impact Speed weapon, same everything else. We'd hit 64d8 damage per swing, averaged to 288, which if all our swings hit will reach 1,440 damage and we can do it all day long, spread out between 5 attacks in case you need to fight a few Balors at once.

[PsyBomb]

Alright so theoretically if we were to grab the Ioun Stone and use it for the Bastard Sword, we could size up to a large Bastard Sword, make that an Impact Speed weapon, same everything else. We'd hit 64d8 damage per swing, averaged to 288, which if all our swings hit will reach 1,440 damage and we can do it all day long, spread out between 5 attacks in case you need to fight a few Balors at once.

I account for accuracy in my numbers, unfortunately, so that number would go down dramatically. I'll see if I can scrape up some time to sim your two theories for final numbers (and also see if the Blinkling Boost busts open Wrath)

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright, screw the old Bastard Sword. ONE MORE SIZE!

Sun Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/sun-blade) counts as a short sword so we can toss another size on.

96d8 per swing, although at a further -2 per attack.
1728 average with Vital Strike, 2160 with 5 swings.

[PsyBomb]

Alright, screw the old Bastard Sword. ONE MORE SIZE!

Sun Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/sun-blade) counts as a short sword so we can toss another size on.

96d8 per swing, although at a further -2 per attack.
1728 average with Vital Strike, 2160 with 5 swings.

What's scary here is that the number doubles against Undead... don't know of too many opponents that can take a 3456 hit.

[Ssalarn]

A few notes:

How is the Passion capacity hitting 10? Shouldn't it be 9?

Akashic Catalysts don't combo with Passion veils, as mentioned in the Passion entry.

Impact doesn't stack with Armory of the Conqueror, they both use the "is treated as though it is X size category(ies) larger than it actually is" verbage.

[PsyBomb]

A few notes:

How is the Passion capacity hitting 10? Shouldn't it be 9?

Akashic Catalysts don't combo with Passion veils, as mentioned in the Passion entry.

Impact doesn't stack with Armory of the Conqueror, they both use the "is treated as though it is X size category(ies) larger than it actually is" verbage.

Didn't realize Catalysts wouldn't help the Passion veil. I've been using it in some of my sims, as well, so Vengeance is going to be stepped back a hair (I use them on hands to double-tap Forcestrike Knuckles and Wrath Claws). Armory not stacking with Impact, I really should have known.

Passion hitting 10 comes from Expanded Capacity and +3 from Blinkling. That much I know should work, we've had the discussion (I think two or three times, now)

[Mithril Leaf]

A few notes:

How is the Passion capacity hitting 10? Shouldn't it be 9?

Akashic Catalysts don't combo with Passion veils, as mentioned in the Passion entry.

Impact doesn't stack with Armory of the Conqueror, they both use the "is treated as though it is X size category(ies) larger than it actually is" verbage.

Impact actually doesn't use that Verbage at all, I was careful to check.

An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.
One size category Larger. Not one size category larger than it really is.

Also, now that the Catalysts don't work with Passions at all, I suppose it's back to the Vizier having the most Damage, because we all knew that the Mage Type should really be the one hitting hardest.

EDIT: It's actually Guru. You start as one size bigger, lose one size from Armory, then only get up to Improved Vital Strike for 1296 averaged damage.

[Ssalarn]

Impact actually doesn't use that Verbage at all, I was careful to check.

One size category Larger. Not one size category larger than it really is.

Also, now that the Catalysts don't work with Passions at all, I suppose it's back to the Vizier having the most Damage, because we all knew that the Mage Type should really be the one hitting hardest.

EDIT: It's actually Guru. You start as one size bigger, lose one size from Armory, then only get up to Improved Vital Strike for 1296 averaged damage.

Being able to theoretically deliver X damage via stacking damage die and actually dealing a set amount of damage reliably to establish a true damage capacity are two totally different concepts; the Daevic is still able to deliver the mathematically highest damage when you factor in enemy defenses and total abilities.

Unless you're talking multi-class characters on a 25 or greater point buy value, in which case a Daevic/Guru/Aegis (psywar works in place of Aegis) with a powerful build race (I think I went with the Oggr from Bloodforge) can crank out some stupid hurt.

[Mithril Leaf]

Being able to theoretically deliver X damage via stacking damage die and actually dealing a set amount of damage reliably to establish a true damage capacity are two totally different concepts; the Daevic is still able to deliver the mathematically highest damage when you factor in enemy defenses and total abilities.

Unless you're talking multi-class characters on a 25 or greater point buy value, in which case a Daevic/Guru/Aegis (psywar works in place of Aegis) with a powerful build race (I think I went with the Oggr from Bloodforge) can crank out some stupid hurt.

You're still using Vital Strike with a BAB of 15. You take -4 for the weapon being a silly size, -2 for being huge, get +5 from the weapon's enhancements, +10 or so from your strength, taking shape veil again for the Eye of the Oracle and using another catalyst there gets you +9, a courageous weapon combined with a Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone gets you +3, a normal Pale Green Prism gets you another +1. There are bonuses I'm missing due to it being 4 AM, but a +37 still lets you hit a Balor on a 2.

[PsyBomb]

ANYWAY, back to the guide...

I'm going to need help looking for items. I'll be searching myself, but a lot has landed on my plate recently so time is limited. Looking for:

1) Specific enchantments for weapons and armor that will help various Passions/Philosophies/Paths. The more it will help within a given class, the better.
2) Specific magic items (especially for Crafter Viziers), as above. Make note if it's for a specific tactic or tactics.
3) Unique consumables that may help.

The above is obviously going to be expanded GREATLY when the Items document comes up, but it all needs to get started. I have put a bare skeleton into each guide, but they will be refined and expanded

[Deadkitten]

Might want to update your description of the Tauric Brace its different than what the veil actually does.

Also might want to note that it appears as almost a required veil for Wrath Daevics, since it lets you Bullrush or Overrun larger opponents than you normally would.

And In addition the "Snowstrider" trait from Koblods of Golation is a good trait for them as well.

[PsyBomb]

Might want to update your description of the Tauric Brace its different than what the veil actually does.

Also might want to note that it appears as almost a required veil for Wrath Daevics, since it lets you Bullrush or Overrun larger opponents than you normally would.

And In addition the "Snowstrider" trait from Koblods of Golation is a good trait for them as well.

Thanks for pointing these out. Tauric Brace is also a good idea for BFC Viziers now, since Trips are size-based as well. I disagree with it being completely required for Wrath (due to the potential presence of other major size-changers), but it is important for those who are either independent or else too small to reach the big guys normally. Thing is that using it is hard for Vengeance due to needing Sea-Drake's Talons (maybe in belt slot?). Much easier for Justice. Snowstrider is a huge deal, though, don't know how I missed it.

... going to need to make Trait sections for all three, aren't I?

[Kymera]

TL;DR: Toughness sucks. Do not use Toughness as a balance point. Do not nerf perfectly good feats just because they're better than Toughness.


EioT is definitely *not* "laughably overpowered. Toughness is laughably underpowered.


I'd recommend halving the benefit. It'd still be 150% better than Toughness at level 20 for the vizier before any akashic feats/items/racial options/etc.

Edit: Along with halving the benefit, give it +1 essence. That way, it's worse than Toughness at level 1, even at 2, sliiiightly better until 11, and then increasingly better the rest of the way.

No. Nononononononono NO! holy-$%^&-what-the-$%^&-is-wrong-with-you no. Toughness is the monk of feats. It's not just underpowered, it's a paragon of underpoweredness. It is the poster child for underpoweredness in the "feats" category. It is underpowered for every build and every role. Its only use is to meet certain prerequisites, and even then, requiring it is a severe cost that the other effect must make up for. No one should *ever* print anything that is worse than Toughness at *any* level, let alone taking all the way to level 11 to just edge out Toughness and not hit half again the effect until level 20. Toughness at 150% effect across the board, at every level, would just edge in on being worth taking for the builds it's at its best in.

Do not use Toughness as your balance point. Nearly every feat is better than Toughness. This does not mean they all need nerfs, it means PF didn't go far enough to fix Toughness, and should finish the job.

[stack]

Adding a point of essence is half a feat on its own. Many Akashic builds would take it just for that regardless of how many HP it gives. Not that some extra up matter at high levels anyway.

[PsyBomb]

Either version of the feat would be strong enough to be sky-blue, to be honest. I'd take it on any Akashic characer that had an open slot (read: anything other than optimized simulator-builds)

Anyway, the Blinkling alternate class bonus for Daevic caught an erratum, so I've edited it in the guide. Right about to post the new evaluation for Benevolence, and they are MUCH better now. (high Yellow or low Blue, not sure)

[Kymera]

Adding a point of essence is half a feat on its own. Many Akashic builds would take it just for that regardless of how many HP it gives. Not that some extra up matter at high levels anyway.

Actually, its slightly more than half a feat, unless they decide to make Extra Essence repeatable. Still, 150% of Toughness isn't even good enough to cover the other half of the feat, let alone something that usually won't even be 100% of Toughness (since more play occurs below level 11 than above it).

[Ssalarn]

Impact actually doesn't use that Verbage at all, I was careful to check.

One size category Larger. Not one size category larger than it really is.



Relevant (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u).

[CashanDraven]

Quick question, in your Guru guide, you point on the class combination of Deadly fist/ Guru, however there is one thing that is bugging me.

You say Deadly fist 1 is all you need, and to pick up the extra blade skill feat to get Focused Offense for Wis to att/dmg. However don't you need to be at least lvl 2, and have the blade skill class feature to even take the feat in the first place?

[PsyBomb]

Quick question, in your Guru guide, you point on the class combination of Deadly fist/ Guru, however there is one thing that is bugging me.

You say Deadly fist 1 is all you need, and to pick up the extra blade skill feat to get Focused Offense for Wis to att/dmg. However don't you need to be at least lvl 2, and have the blade skill class feature to even take the feat in the first place?

That one is a bit of a corner case. In most instances you're right... but Deadly Fist Soulblades gain a Bladeskill at level one, Flurry of Fists. If your DM doesn't agree with this, then the build is best done by going 4 levels into Soulknife for the extra iterative plus some other goodies.

[CashanDraven]

Another thing I noticed in your Guru guide, you have the spiked chain listed in the weapon selections for TWF, however the Spiked chain is a two handed weapon and not a double weapon. Is there an errata or FAQ I'm missing that allows it to be used as a double weapon?


Two-Weapon Fighting (Series): Much of your damage comes as bonuses per-strike, and just like a rogue the more qualifying strikes you make the better. Akasins have the Two-Bladed Sword. Sineaters have the Spiked Chain (along with Bo Staff, Tonfa, and Dan Bong). Vayists have the 9-section whip in the main hand, and Nunchaku for either (though dual-wielding Nunchaku is an awesome image)

[Mithril Leaf]

Relevant (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u).


On that note, the recent FAQ about size increases broke my old damage builds. I'm feeling a natural attack build coming up.

Just because Paizo decides to be mean and break my old builds, doesn't mean I won't come back stronger than before. Also it doesn't mean that it didn't work before.

Anyway, I just need to a way to get like 20 natural attacks and I'll be golden.

[stack]

Just because Paizo decides to be mean and break my old builds, doesn't mean I won't come back stronger than before. Also it doesn't mean that it didn't work before.

Anyway, I just need to a way to get like 20 natural attacks and I'll be golden.

Did the original sim have aegis-aberrant? If not, easy source of attacks there.

[PsyBomb]

Just because Paizo decides to be mean and break my old builds, doesn't mean I won't come back stronger than before. Also it doesn't mean that it didn't work before.

Anyway, I just need to a way to get like 20 natural attacks and I'll be golden.

I've done 19 on Vengeance (20 if you count the QBR), but one of those is an Armbands smash. This is a Feelkha with a Bloodforge feat for extra bite attack. I stopped pushing the win once it broke 1200 DPR, trying to make it more efficient in order to squeeze in more utility

[Mithril Leaf]

I've done 19 on Vengeance (20 if you count the QBR), but one of those is an Armbands smash. This is a Feelkha with a Bloodforge feat for extra bite attack. I stopped pushing the win once it broke 1200 DPR, trying to make it more efficient in order to squeeze in more utility

Off the top of my head, gore, bite, couple claws, some legs, unarmed gets you to easy 10 or so, after that you need to do some scrounging. I'm thinking it might actually be better to do it on a Guru chassis, as they have better Forcestrike Knuckles and lots more utility. Assuming of course you can easily swing some Swift Action movement. I'm prepared to collaborate on the damage record for Akashic with you Psybomb, share even greater glory than we can achieve independently. :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

Just because Paizo decides to be mean and break my old builds, doesn't mean I won't come back stronger than before. Also it doesn't mean that it didn't work before.


I play with the Paizo guys from time to time, so I usually know a FAQ like that is in the offing before it actually hits (which is why I was trying to save you the math without actually saying anything that wasn't mine to say ;P)

[Mithril Leaf]

I play with the Paizo guys from time to time, so I usually know a FAQ like that is in the offing before it actually hits (which is why I was trying to save you the math without actually saying anything that wasn't mine to say ;P)

Protip: I'm really ornery and if you say I'm wrong by RAW that just makes me more determined.
Besides, the math was easy. We only actually lose one size of damage anyway. Guru is still swinging for 864 average damage. We use Armory for our virtual size increase, Expansion for our real size increase, still can use a super big Sun Blade.

[CashanDraven]

Another thing I noticed in your Guru guide, you have the spiked chain listed in the weapon selections for TWF, however the Spiked chain is a two handed weapon and not a double weapon. Is there an errata or FAQ I'm missing that allows it to be used as a double weapon?


Two-Weapon Fighting (Series): Much of your damage comes as bonuses per-strike, and just like a rogue the more qualifying strikes you make the better. Akasins have the Two-Bladed Sword. Sineaters have the Spiked Chain (along with Bo Staff, Tonfa, and Dan Bong). Vayists have the 9-section whip in the main hand, and Nunchaku for either (though dual-wielding Nunchaku is an awesome image)


Just wondering if I can get some clarification on this.

[PsyBomb]

Just wondering if I can get some clarification on this.

Just checked it, and it looks like 3.5 creeped itself into my writing processes. Fixing it now, and thanks for pointing it out.

[CashanDraven]

Just checked it, and it looks like 3.5 creeped itself into my writing processes. Fixing it now, and thanks for pointing it out.


Ah, no problem then. I really wish there was a feat that allowed you to use a different weapon as a philosophy weapon.

[stack]

Ah, no problem then. I really wish there was a feat that allowed you to use a different weapon as a philosophy weapon.

I had that discussion with Ssalarn a ways back in the old thread. I'm on my phone, so I'd rather not search for it, but he did propose a feat. I think it was for a specific weapon, rather than a weapon group as I advocated.

[CashanDraven]

I had that discussion with Ssalarn a ways back in the old thread. I'm on my phone, so I'd rather not search for it, but he did propose a feat. I think it was for a specific weapon, rather than a weapon group as I advocated.


I agree with a single weapon for a feat, as the ability to adapt gentle touch to a whole different group of weapons is a bit too powerful really, imo. That being said a weapon group could be adapted, perhaps if the essence you have invested in your gentle touch counts as 1 less than normal. Or, what might work better, is an Akashic feat that allows you to invest a point of essence in order to gain an extra philosophy weapon. So for a feat and essence, you can adapt a weapon into your build. Also gives you a point of essence, making it useful for people trying to get extra essence by dipping ,ect.

[Tulya]

Can you invest temporary essence, as from Absorb Radiance, or are you only able to burn it?

[PsyBomb]

Can you invest temporary essence, as from Absorb Radiance, or are you only able to burn it?

You can invest it, there are no limits to its use other than the fact that it is burned first.

[PsyBomb]

UPDATE: Supplemental Document is up, and it includes a few new veils (will be written into the appropriate guides), items, races (already in the guides), Racial Favored Class Bonuses (still changing quick, so not going up yet), archetypes, and a couple of PrCs. Several Veils have been edited as well.

Main question, does anyone want a Supplemental Document guide to go up detailing what wasn't in the main three? This would mostly be a race-guide to non-Akashic classes, Archetypes, Item review, and PrC notes. Warning you that it could take a while, I have a bunch of projects on my plate at the moment, but if people want it you'd best believe it will go up eventually.

[Vhaidara]

If you don't have time (and if I somehow find it) I could give the archetypes a shot.

[NomGarret]

I'd like it because "omnomnom more Akashic," but there's no rush. What makes it into the existing guides is the bigger deal.

[yakri]

You mention the daevic taking Enhanced capacity to use with your passion bond, but passion bond isn't itself a veil, and the ability states that the veil's bound with passion bond cannot benefit from Enhanced capacity; what's up with that?

[PsyBomb]

You mention the daevic taking Enhanced capacity to use with your passion bond, but passion bond isn't itself a veil, and the ability states that the veil's bound with passion bond cannot benefit from Enhanced capacity; what's up with that?

Enhanced Capacity can apply to any receptacle, not just a Veil. You can apply it to the bond itself, which fuels the Passion Veils. This is the only way to boost them, since you can't individually boost them (as you noted).

[Extra Anchovies]

Enhanced Capacity can apply to any receptacle, not just a Veil. You can apply it to the bond itself, which fuels the Passion Veils. This is the only way to boost them, since you can't individually boost them (as you noted).

That's worth asking Ssalarn about. Getting an essence increased from Enhanced Capacity (Passion) IMO very clearly counts as benefiting from Enhanced Capacity.

[CashanDraven]

After doing some back tracking, and looking around, I have not found an answer to a question I posted a good while back. Is there, or will there be a feat that allows a Guru to adapt a weapon or weapons to his philosophy? I mean as of the Akashic Aegis, there's really no reason to not have it for build diversities sake.

[PsyBomb]

After doing some back tracking, and looking around, I have not found an answer to a question I posted a good while back. Is there, or will there be a feat that allows a Guru to adapt a weapon or weapons to his philosophy? I mean as of the Akashic Aegis, there's really no reason to not have it for build diversities sake.

Supposedly, it is currently being checked for balance. Something about racial weapon proficiencies potentially doing unanticipated things. Ssalarn said about a week or two ago that it is likely to make it into the final PDF, but we have to wait and see.

In other news, found out that I was totally wrong on current intent on the Passion benefitting from Expanded Capacity. I will change a few things in the guides once I get the chance.

[Rokku]

Looking at the release Vizier PDF, Storm Gauntlets appear to only work with melee weapons. Is this something that's changing in the final, compiled version?

[Ssalarn]

Looking at the release Vizier PDF, Storm Gauntlets appear to only work with melee weapons. Is this something that's changing in the final, compiled version?

Yes. The melee restriction will be completely removed in the final release and in the updates for all individual .pdfs the veil appears in.

[jesterjeff]

What happened to lashing spinnerets? You mentioned it in your vizier guide but it isn't in the release. Was it removed?

[Vhaidara]

What happened to lashing spinnerets? You mentioned it in your vizier guide but it isn't in the release. Was it removed?

Reverse. It was added after the vizier PDF was released, IIRC.

[PsyBomb]

What happened to lashing spinnerets? You mentioned it in your vizier guide but it isn't in the release. Was it removed?

Keledrath beat me to it. The Lashing Spinnerets veil is in the Supplemental document, which is currently still in playtest.

[jesterjeff]

Thanks ya'll.

[Rokku]

I just realized an Akasin Guru can't use Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light with Gentle Touch.

That's the saddest thing I've heard all day.

[PsyBomb]

I just realized an Akasin Guru can't use Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light with Gentle Touch.

That's the saddest thing I've heard all day.

Lemme cheer you up a bit, then. Ssalarn has a feat in the works which may enable that. It's just not in the doc yet, pending preliminary playtest.

[EternalZiggurat]

I keep seeing the loyal paladins lance of light mentioned in the guides. but i cant find it's stats listed anywhere in the documents. where is it? does it still exist or did it get removed and some remnants were missed in reference to it?

[PsyBomb]

I keep seeing the loyal paladins lance of light mentioned in the guides. but i cant find it's stats listed anywhere in the documents. where is it? does it still exist or did it get removed and some remnants were missed in reference to it?

It is one of the new Veils, from the upcoming Supplemental document. I think I'm going to add an asterisk to the doc next to anything from there, I get that question a lot

[EternalZiggurat]

Thanks for the prompt reply, I found it.

[Mithril Leaf]

Have you considered Half Sahuagin with the Four Armed Freak trait for the Guru? Great stats and potentially 12 base attacks per round is nothing to scoff at with Gentle Touch.

[Ssalarn]

Added to the Vizier errata:

Page 6: Replace the first two paragraphs in Aura of Subjugation with
"Aura of Subjugation (Su): At 1st level the ruler’s aura of subjugation has a range of 30 feet and all creatures other than the ruler within its area of effect take a -1 penalty to their Will saving throws and a -2 penalty to all Sense Motive checks. He may choose to exclude a number of creatures equal to his Intelligence modifier from the effects of this aura.
At 5th level the ruler’s control over his aura of subjugation improves and the penalty to Will saving throws increases to -2 and the penalty to Sense Motive checks increases to -4."

This one was a long time coming, sorry for the delay.

[Lord_Gareth]

Have you considered Half Sahuagin with the Four Armed Freak trait for the Guru? Great stats and potentially 12 base attacks per round is nothing to scoff at with Gentle Touch.

This trait is getting deleted.

[Mithril Leaf]

This trait is getting deleted.

Just because something is clearly brokenly strong and made it in the book it needs to be removed? Absolutely absurd!

[PsyBomb]

Just because something is clearly brokenly strong and made it in the book it needs to be removed? Absolutely absurd!

Yeah... on my first read through of Bloodforge, being able to get 14 weapon attacks per round (dependant on feat reading) stood out enough that I didn't include it. When Gateth asked for feedback, that ended up getting burned like the Wicker Man.

[Mithril Leaf]

Yeah... on my first read through of Bloodforge, being able to get 14 weapon attacks per round (dependant on feat reading) stood out enough that I didn't include it. When Gateth asked for feedback, that ended up getting burned like the Wicker Man.

Did you also recommend that he make some of the upwards of 1/4th of the races that are exclusive half-elves into something besides exclusively half-elves? So many half-elves... :smalleek:

[Novawurmson]

Hey!

So a player of mine is playing a TWF Guru that burned two feats for Storm Gauntlets, and he's enjoying the Akashic system immensely. The campaign is a super kick-in-the door, Binding of Isaac inspired combat fest, and he's basically already decided that the next "real" campaign we do, he's playing a veilweaver.

However, he does have one serious recurring problem: He has no way to move and full attack. Now, from Coward's Boots, he has a speed of 50ft., so getting to foes is usually a breeze - he just can't do that much when he gets there until the turn after he gets there. What are some ways to get swift action movement, pounce, or the like on a Guru?

He's level 8. Feats are Weapon Finesse, TWF (house rule: TWF also counts as Improved TWF and Greater TWF), Shape Veil (Storm Gauntlets), Open Chakra (Wrist). He shapes Storm Gauntlets (wrist), Gloves of the Master Thief (Hands), Coward's Boots (Feet), and Diadem of Pure Reflection (Head). He just picked up a Quick Runner's Shirt, but I'm not sure how much that will help in the grand scheme of things. Race is Ophiduan.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey!

So a player of mine is playing a TWF Guru that burned two feats for Storm Gauntlets, and he's enjoying the Akashic system immensely. The campaign is a super kick-in-the door, Binding of Isaac inspired combat fest, and he's basically already decided that the next "real" campaign we do, he's playing a veilweaver.

However, he does have one serious recurring problem: He has no way to move and full attack. Now, from Coward's Boots, he has a speed of 50ft., so getting to foes is usually a breeze - he just can't do that much when he gets there until the turn after he gets there. What are some ways to get swift action movement, pounce, or the like on a Guru?

He's level 8. Feats are Weapon Finesse, TWF (house rule: TWF also counts as Improved TWF and Greater TWF), Shape Veil (Storm Gauntlets), Open Chakra (Wrist). He shapes Storm Gauntlets (wrist), Gloves of the Master Thief (Hands), Coward's Boots (Feet), and Diadem of Pure Reflection (Head). He just picked up a Quick Runner's Shirt, but I'm not sure how much that will help in the grand scheme of things. Race is Ophiduan.

Let him combine 10 Quick Runners Shirts into one that's at-will. That's twice the price of such a thing according to the rather silly at times Magic Item Creation Guidelines. Alternatively, since it's already DSP material, the Steelforge Playtest has some fancy Boots that let you move during a full attack for around 10k.

[Novawurmson]

Let him combine 10 Quick Runners Shirts into one that's at-will. That's twice the price of such a thing according to the rather silly at times Magic Item Creation Guidelines. Alternatively, since it's already DSP material, the Steelforge Playtest has some fancy Boots that let you move during a full attack for around 10k.

I guess a command-word activated item of hustle at-will would cost around 2x3x1800=10,800g. Hrm. I'd like to solve it with a feat/veil/etc. if possible.

[Extra Anchovies]

I guess a command-word activated item of hustle at-will would cost around 2x3x1800=10,800g. Hrm. I'd like to solve it with a feat/veil/etc. if possible.

A thing: command-word Hustle is literally useless, because command-word items are activated as a standard action. You'd be trading a standard action for a move action, which is... already something you can do.

What you want is a use-activated item of Hustle for 12K gp. Maybe a pair of boots that casts Hustle each time your foot touches the ground? Or, if you want to go slotless, 24K gp for a sock.

[Novawurmson]

A thing: command-word Hustle is literally useless, because command-word items are activated as a standard action. You'd be trading a standard action for a move action, which is... already something you can do.

What you want is a use-activated item of Hustle for 12K gp. Maybe a pair of boots that casts Hustle each time your foot touches the ground? Or, if you want to go slotless, 24K gp for a sock.

I usually house-rule command word items to use the same casting/manifesting time as their original spell/power (otherwise you get silly situations like the one you just described).

Something is innately hilarious to me about a single magical sock, though. I can only imagine the thought process of the creator of such an item:

"Hrm, I'm going to infuse an object with such incredible magical power that its creator will be able to dash about as if a messenger of the very gods. But what to infuse? An ioun stone? No, I'm out of those. Warpaint? I can't find any. Origami? An hourglass? A pearl? I could have sworn I had a pearl! I actually don't have anything really worth enchanting..."

[shifty eyes]

"...except this lucky sock."

And this is why you don't dump Wis on an arcane caster, kids.

[Ssalarn]

Hey!

So a player of mine is playing a TWF Guru that burned two feats for Storm Gauntlets, and he's enjoying the Akashic system immensely. The campaign is a super kick-in-the door, Binding of Isaac inspired combat fest, and he's basically already decided that the next "real" campaign we do, he's playing a veilweaver.

However, he does have one serious recurring problem: He has no way to move and full attack. Now, from Coward's Boots, he has a speed of 50ft., so getting to foes is usually a breeze - he just can't do that much when he gets there until the turn after he gets there. What are some ways to get swift action movement, pounce, or the like on a Guru?

He's level 8. Feats are Weapon Finesse, TWF (house rule: TWF also counts as Improved TWF and Greater TWF), Shape Veil (Storm Gauntlets), Open Chakra (Wrist). He shapes Storm Gauntlets (wrist), Gloves of the Master Thief (Hands), Coward's Boots (Feet), and Diadem of Pure Reflection (Head). He just picked up a Quick Runner's Shirt, but I'm not sure how much that will help in the grand scheme of things. Race is Ophiduan.

If he hadn't already burned two feats for Storm Gauntlets, I'd say he could grab Horselord's Greaves for some easy mounted combat. What Philosophy did he choose?

[Novawurmson]

If he hadn't already burned two feats for Storm Gauntlets, I'd say he could grab Horselord's Greaves for some easy mounted combat. What Philosophy did he choose?

Philosophy is Akasin.

[TheRagi]

"Chakram Flurry: "You need to stack Dexterity to hit". Last page of the Daevic guide.

But a Desire daevic, the obligatory one for a throwing build, gets "Precise Shot and Willful Throw* as bonus feats, even if she would not normally meet their prerequisites" at third level.

"Willful Throw: When you have at least 1 point of essence invested in this feat, you may use your Charisma modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your attack rolls when attacking with thrown weapons".

So, my level 3 daevic player has Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14, and hits with hers chakrams for +9, with +5 to damage. Granted, the first two levels were kind of a dog, but Hands Cannon made up for it - currently they hit for +7 with +2 to damage.

You do mention that "Some feat choices can change around how stats apply", but I believe the desire daevic pretty much works without Dex, since she even "may use her Charisma modifier in place of her Dexterity or Intelligence modifiers to determine prerequisites for feats". Plus the possibility of using heavy armor, which kinda nukes the AC bonus.

[PsyBomb]

"Chakram Flurry: "You need to stack Dexterity to hit". Last page of the Daevic guide.

But a Desire daevic, the obligatory one for a throwing build, gets "Precise Shot and Willful Throw* as bonus feats, even if she would not normally meet their prerequisites" at third level.

"Willful Throw: When you have at least 1 point of essence invested in this feat, you may use your Charisma modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your attack rolls when attacking with thrown weapons".

So, my level 3 daevic player has Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14, and hits with hers chakrams for +9, with +5 to damage. Granted, the first two levels were kind of a dog, but Hands Cannon made up for it - currently they hit for +7 with +2 to damage.

You do mention that "Some feat choices can change around how stats apply", but I believe the desire daevic pretty much works without Dex, since she even "may use her Charisma modifier in place of her Dexterity or Intelligence modifiers to determine prerequisites for feats". Plus the possibility of using heavy armor, which pretty much nukes the AC bonus.

You make a good point here, and one I'll put into the guide once I shake some time loose (and there are a LOT of revisions and additions from Akashic Mysteries recently, so this is getting important). Forgot that the Daevic could use Charisma for Deadly Aim and similar, which makes a big difference.

[Novawurmson]

Putting together a guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adD5wYmcP5lB4JYD8D3fUBFuumMeW4CKh9ZLVMgKSDc/edit?usp=sharing) on variant multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing), and I came across this combo:

Sineater Guru VMC Cavalier, take Order of the Hammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-hammer-cavalier-order); you now have the base damage of a monk when dealing nonlethal damage. Sure, it costs 5 feats, but it might be worth it for a pure DPS build.

[Ssalarn]

Putting together a guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adD5wYmcP5lB4JYD8D3fUBFuumMeW4CKh9ZLVMgKSDc/edit?usp=sharing) on variant multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing), and I came across this combo:

Sineater Guru VMC Cavalier, take Order of the Hammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-hammer-cavalier-order); you now have the base damage of a monk when dealing nonlethal damage. Sure, it costs 5 feats, but it might be worth it for a pure DPS build.

Could be decent on the Sineater, especially combo'd with a race like the Gamla. Challenge gets you a damage boost that you can stack with Gentle Touch, and Tactician comes online late enough that you've got a fair selection of teamwork feats to choose from.

[PsyBomb]

Putting together a guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adD5wYmcP5lB4JYD8D3fUBFuumMeW4CKh9ZLVMgKSDc/edit?usp=sharing) on variant multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing), and I came across this combo:

Sineater Guru VMC Cavalier, take Order of the Hammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-hammer-cavalier-order); you now have the base damage of a monk when dealing nonlethal damage. Sure, it costs 5 feats, but it might be worth it for a pure DPS build.

That is an interesting find...

Not sure if 5 feats is worth the increase, though. Highest DPR build for Gurus is already very feat-hungry (TWF), so finding spare slots will be rough.

2-3 to start (TWF and either Prodigious or Finesse+DA)
Extra Essence
Piranha Strike or Power Attack
Chakra Power
I and G TWF

While the setup can work, I think the addition of ~7.5 average damage over standard TWF weapon options won't work out. Tell me if you find a way to crack it, though.

EDIT: Missed the Challenge part, thanks for pointing that out Ssalarn. That goes a LONG way to evening out the numbers, even on Max-Out builds. I'll run some numbers tonight if I get some time.

[Mithril Leaf]

That is an interesting find...

Not sure if 5 feats is worth the increase, though. Highest DPR build for Gurus is already very feat-hungry (TWF), so finding spare slots will be rough.

2-3 to start (TWF and either Prodigious or Finesse+DA)
Extra Essence
Piranha Strike or Power Attack
Chakra Power
I and G TWF

While the setup can work, I think the addition of ~7.5 average damage over standard TWF weapon options won't work out. Tell me if you find a way to crack it, though.

EDIT: Missed the Challenge part, thanks for pointing that out Ssalarn. That goes a LONG way to evening out the numbers, even on Max-Out builds. I'll run some numbers tonight if I get some time.

Armory on Monk Unarmed strike is absolutely silly strong. On a large base race especially, they get really big damage.

[Vhaidara]

Would Armory+Monk damage make for a workable Vital Strike build?

[Mithril Leaf]

Would Armory+Monk damage make for a workable Vital Strike build?

If you're a real Veilweaver, definitely. If you're a partial weaver, not as much. Doesn't really come online till later levels though.

[Extra Anchovies]

Putting together a guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adD5wYmcP5lB4JYD8D3fUBFuumMeW4CKh9ZLVMgKSDc/edit?usp=sharing) on variant multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing), and I came across this combo:

Sineater Guru VMC Cavalier, take Order of the Hammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-hammer-cavalier-order); you now have the base damage of a monk when dealing nonlethal damage. Sure, it costs 5 feats, but it might be worth it for a pure DPS build.

Oooh! Thanks for linking the guide, I've been thinking about writing up a VMC guide for a while but haven't found the time. I'll be tossing some comments on various bits and pieces of it.

[CGNefarious]

How would you say a Crafter Vizier compares to an Artificer? Specifically the Eberron in Pathfinder conversion.

Pathfinder Artificer Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/classes/artificer)

[Diagan]

In the Vizier guide, under the special note for item crafting, where are you getting the DC for crafting spell trigger and spell completion items without having the spell? The 3+spell level bit. I've scoured every document I can find to verify this.

[Ssalarn]

In the Vizier guide, under the special note for item crafting, where are you getting the DC for crafting spell trigger and spell completion items without having the spell? The 3+spell level bit. I've scoured every document I can find to verify this.

Due to a series of delays in our product schedule, we haven't gotten our errata issued and applied to the .pdfs yet, but that will be part of the errata update. Other scheduled errata can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18306638&postcount=25), in this very thread!

[Diagan]

Due to a series of delays in our product schedule, we haven't gotten our errata issued and applied tobthe .pdfs yet, but that will be part of the errata update. Other scheduled errata can be found here, in this very thread!

It could just be me, but you link appears to be broken...

[Ssalarn]

It could just be me, but you link appears to be broken...

Are you on your phone? I've had issues getting links to individual GitP posts to work on my phone unless I resquest the desktop version of the site. Anyways, it's post 25 on the first page of this thread.

[PsyBomb]

Akashic Mysteries has officially released! I am ridiculously busy for at least the next week, but after that I am going to go through guide by guide to get everything updated, then write a fourth one detailing supplemental information (specifics on races, PrCs and Archetype options, etc). Details on the Bestiary on request, since that's normally not my thing.

The Extras guide is also where things will be put that aren't from this release, such as some of the playtest material for Steelforge (the Ring of the Grand Vizier and the Axiom Daevic, for example)

[upho]

Akashic Mysteries has officially released!Yay and Hurray! Got my copy just a few minutes ago, and judging by the looks of it, Ssalarn and all of you helping out have done a great job.

(Btw, I had to resort to DriveThruRPG since DSP's site seems to have gone totally bonkers, with every link leading to a 404 error page. Any idea what's going on?)


I am ridiculously busy for at least the next week... /snip/ :smallfrown: But... but... *lower lip trembles*

How am I supposed to understand all this tricky new stuff all by myself before my players go full tilt akasha-shenaniganas munchkiny-cheese-bananas, with weird weavings on top? :smalleek: I need your help to veil-pimp my opposition now, before those mean PCs get their grubby little hands on the bling and (ab)use it to ruthlessly walk all over my poor little monsters and steal their stuff again. Just like they've done every time you guys bring new cool toys for the smart kids... *sobs*


...but after that I am going to go through guide by guide to get everything updated, then write a fourth one detailing supplemental information (specifics on races, PrCs and Archetype options, etc). Details on the Bestiary on request, since that's normally not my thing.Ok. That sounds comforting. Guess I might just be able to hide the PDF from my snooping players 'til then.

On a slightly more serious note, as you may remember you tipped me about Powerful Throw in the LotW playtest thread a while ago:
Just as a reminder, Akashic Mysteries contains a pair of feats relevant to the current conversation. Willful Throw lets you use Cha for ranged attacks with investment, Powerful Throw lets you use Strength (no investment needed)And just now I noticed a potentially very interesting paragraph which I somehow completely missed when I first checked out the feat in the playtest doc, namely:
You may also use the Power Attack feat instead of the Deadly Aim feat when attacking with thrown weapons.Seems the RAW is clear, but just to be certain: does this mean any Power Attack rider effects (not limited to melee) are triggered as normal when making ranged attacks using Powerful Throw and Power Attack?

If I'm correct in assuming so, I suspect especially Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) on a "demoralize-power-thrower" Str build could get pretty brutal, and downright hilarious if based on a grendel with the Imperious Bearing alt racial trait... :smalltongue:

Are there any other significant throwing/switch-hitting or demoralize related options in AM one might consider for such a build? Seems I've gotten a "scarakashic" build itch I need to scratch...

[Ssalarn]

***I need your help to veil-pimp my opposition now, before those mean PCs get their grubby little hands on the bling and (ab)use it to ruthlessly walk all over my poor little monsters and steal their stuff again.

Well, there are some badass (and in the case of the vritra, adorable) new akashic monsters to throw at your party as well! And by and large, they're relatively hardcore for their CRs if you actually start moving essence around and really leveraging them.



Just like they've done every time you guys bring new cool toys for the smart kids... *sobs*

Ok. That sounds comforting. Guess I might just be able to hide the PDF from my snooping players 'til then.

On a slightly more serious note, as you may remember you tipped me about Powerful Throw in the LotW playtest thread a while ago:And just now I noticed a potentially very interesting paragraph which I somehow completely missed when I first checked out the feat in the playtest doc, namely:Seems the RAW is clear, but just to be certain: does this mean any Power Attack rider effects (not limited to melee) are triggered as normal when making ranged attacks using Powerful Throw and Power Attack?

If I'm correct in assuming so, I suspect especially Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) on a "demoralize-power-thrower" Str build could get pretty brutal, and downright hilarious if based on a grendel with the Imperious Bearing alt racial trait... :smalltongue:

***

Yes, Powerful Throw would allow you to use Cornugon Smash when power attacking with thrown weapons. This is both RAW and totally intentional; my party actually fought a Tyranny daevic who managed to demoralize almost the entire party in a single round using that trick and his other abilities.

[upho]

Well, there are some badass (and in the case of the vritra, adorable) new akashic monsters to throw at your party as well! And by and large, they're relatively hardcore for their CRs if you actually start moving essence around and really leveraging them.The monsters have so far been a very nice surprise for me, as I didn't even expect to find any in AM, much less such seemingly well designed and distinctly different ones. I've only briefly checked them out so far, but my impression is that what you're saying here regarding their general badass potential seems to be very much the case. Although I personally never use CR when designing encounters, it appears the inherent flexibility of veilweaving makes the akashic monsters quite a bit more versatile and interesting than most other monsters of an equal CR. The only (minor) potential downside I can see so far is their rather lengthy lists of unique abilities (although I actually wouldn't be surprised if that relatively high complexity makes many games more fun, as it also may encourage GMs to use these monsters for purposes other than simply providing combat challenges).

Also, the whole emotion concept seemed to be impressively well reflected in the daeva's various essence receptacles and their dependency weaknesses. Both their fluff and crunch seem to inspire and encourage interactions more touching and "profound", as well as story lines markedly different and more involving than what you normally get with most fantastic creatures in a (stereo)typical D&D/PF adventure. I actually felt a bit "touched" just from reading... :smallredface: Which is exactly what I'd hope to get from such an emotion based creature concept, of course.

And yes, the vritra really are adorable! Immediately after first looking at them I started thinking about how I might squeeze one into the storyline of my current regular game...


Yes, Powerful Throw would allow you to use Cornugon Smash when power attacking with thrown weapons.Cool. I like it and I'm not particularly worried Powerful Throw will further increase the silly mass debuff power that was already possible, but it does open for new and interesting applications of demoralization, some of which might of course also make a "silly mass debuffer" a bit more versatile.


This is both RAW and totally intentional; my party actually fought a Tyranny daevic who managed to demoralize almost the entire party in a single round using that trick and his other abilities.Ouch! But at least they weren't panicked or cowering! :smalltongue: And yes, I can very much see that happening, but thankfully not because of Powerful Throw.

As an aside, I think there's one demoralize related option from DSP which runs a very high risk of being OP in most games, and that's the aforementioned Imperious Bearing grendel trait. I mean, yes, I've seen a really stupidly scary "silly mass debuffer" without Imperious Bearing - a fighter/bloodrager/warder build with Soulless Gaze, Black Seraph Annihilation and (tons of) performance combat feats - consistently and totally wrecking virtually any encounter by forcing one enemy into cowering and all others within 30 ft. into panicked, in every round, virtually regardless of the opposition (he could've made an entire family of tarrasques pee their proverbial pants by 16th level). But that required a very specific and borderline TO build, which sacrifices combat efficiency during several earlier levels and is forced into making other rather significant trade-offs before getting his whole "selective terror nuke"-thing going. Imperious Bearing, on the other hand, has a laughably insignificant opportunity cost by comparison, while providing a benefit at 1st level which used to require no less than five performance combat feats, a high Cha and at least 16 ranks in a Perform skill to pull off!

[Ssalarn]

The monsters have so far been a very nice surprise for me, as I didn't even expect to find any in AM, much less such seemingly well designed and distinctly different ones.

Thank you! I really enjoyed putting the monsters together.



I've only briefly checked them out so far, but my impression is that what you're saying here regarding their general badass potential seems to be very much the case. Although I personally never use CR when designing encounters, it appears the inherent flexibility of veilweaving makes the akashic monsters quite a bit more versatile and interesting than most other monsters of an equal CR. The only (minor) potential downside I can see so far is their rather lengthy lists of unique abilities (although I actually wouldn't be surprised if that relatively high complexity makes many games more fun, as it also may encourage GMs to use these monsters for purposes other than simply providing combat challenges).

Yeah, they're a little more intense than your average brute, but my hope was that the extended list of abilities would reward a GM with creatures that serve equally well as intense single encounter challenges or which can work as recurring adversaries in an ongoing campaign.



Also, the whole emotion concept seemed to be impressively well reflected in the daeva's various essence receptacles and their dependency weaknesses. Both their fluff and crunch seem to inspire and encourage interactions more touching and "profound", as well as story lines markedly different and more involving than what you normally get with most fantastic creatures in a (stereo)typical D&D/PF adventure. I actually felt a bit "touched" just from reading... :smallredface: Which is exactly what I'd hope to get from such an emotion based creature concept, of course.

Definitely. As I alluded to a bit above, I really wanted the daeva to be monsters that can drive and sustain a story, something that you can hang multiple plot hooks on and which has the resiliency and inherent connections to keep coming back if you want. Even the yaksa, the lowest CR daeva currently available, is functionally immortal, and a defeated yaksa who shows up later bonded to a mortal host is a great way to keep a story going and give the party that vibe that they've angered something that they can stop, but never entirely defeat.


And yes, the vritra really are adorable! Immediately after first looking at them I started thinking about how I might squeeze one into the storyline of my current regular game...

We've actually been talking about how vritra plushies should be an add-on or stretch goal for an Ultimate Akasha release :P

[meemaas]

We're already talking Ultimate Akasha before any more material is out? You just made my day man.

[upho]

Thank you!You're welcome! I really think any praise you get is well deserved. And thank you for enriching my game!


I really enjoyed putting the monsters together.I believe it's evident it was a labor of love. It's just too bad I rarely see monsters where both fluff and crunch are so well written and in such harmony.


Definitely. As I alluded to a bit above, I really wanted the daeva to be monsters that can drive and sustain a story, something that you can hang multiple plot hooks on and which has the resiliency and inherent connections to keep coming back if you want.Well, I think you've succeeded admirably. I feel they can provide a ton of plot hooks and immediately got my imagination going, having me almost subconsciously start creating story lines based on their unique nature. :smalltongue:


Even the yaksa, the lowest CR daeva currently available, is functionally immortal, and a defeated yaksa who shows up later bonded to a mortal host is a great way to keep a story going and give the party that vibe that they've angered something that they can stop, but never entirely defeat.The daeva immortality/host bonding might just be one of the simplest yet most flexible and unique vehicles for creating a story which binds characters/monsters together I've ever seen. Even if just used as a basic side story to create an additional sense of coherence over time and of the party's actions having long-term consequences, it seems a daeva can provide in spades.

And I think such a recurring daeva could also come with its own mystery solving quest with a uniquely personal touch, especially if the daeva in question corresponds to an emotion with a strong connection to one or more of the PCs, and/or if bonded hosts are relatives or allies of previous bonded hosts, obfuscating the presence, role and importance of the daeva. Tons of interesting possibilities for friends, foes and everyone/-thing in between!


We've actually been talking about how vritra plushies should be an add-on or stretch goal for an Ultimate Akasha release :POh yes please make this happen - both Ultimate Akasha and vritra plushies! I'd love to have a cute little "dragon-alvar" watch over me while I sleep, bringing me sweet dreams full of akashic wonder... :smallbiggrin:

--------------------

And now to something completely different: I'd like to have one of my new homebrew archetypes - the haugadunir skald (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496538-Haugadunir-an-initiating-skald-war-drummer-archetype!-PEACH!) - to grant the benefits of Powerful Throw (the mechanics are perfect). Since AM just came out and its content isn't yet available on any "OGL site" such as d20pfsrd, I'd like to present the feat to make the archetype accessible to more people, and at the same time hopefully give AM a little bit of advertising. Although I assume the OGL covers the strictly legal bits, I won't put up the complete texts of any option without having your blessing, considering the very recent release.

Is it OK with you if I put up the details of Powerful Throw now, or would you prefer I wait, or that I write a substitute instead?

[Ssalarn]

And now to something completely different: I'd like to have one of my new homebrew archetypes - the haugadunir skald (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496538-Haugadunir-an-initiating-skald-war-drummer-archetype!-PEACH!) - to grant the benefits of Powerful Throw (the mechanics are perfect). Since AM just came out and its content isn't yet available on any "OGL site" such as d20pfsrd, I'd like to present the feat to make the archetype accessible to more people, and at the same time hopefully give AM a little bit of advertising. Although I assume the OGL covers the strictly legal bits, I won't put up the complete texts of any option without having your blessing, considering the very recent release.

Is it OK with you if I put up the details of Powerful Throw now, or would you prefer I wait, or that I write a substitute instead?

I'm okay with you putting up the details for Powerful Throw (it's be cool if you if you attributed and recommended the source, of course!) alongside your homebrew.

[upho]

I'm okay with you putting up the details for Powerful Throw (it's be cool if you if you attributed and recommended the source, of course!) alongside your homebrew.Thanks a lot! And of course I'll make sure to heartily recommend the source.

And feel free to post your opinions of the haugadunir archetype if you find it interesting, I'd greatly appreciate your input!

[upho]

After having played around a bit with the daevic (mostly a mid-level Tyranny grendel with a Siegebreaker fighter dip), I have a few thoughts and questions, mainly regarding wrath's Vengeance feature and its potential impact on the game.

In the guide, PsyBomb writes:
These guys represent easily the highest damage output of any of the current Akashic classes (level 20 builds can crack 1200 expected DPR)If this is for a straight daevic 20, it may be correct, seeing as the class doesn't have any other true "nuke" in-class options AFAICT, nor any easy access to those found elsewhere. But for a multiclass build optimizing damage I think 1200 DPR seems like a very low number when looking at what the mechanics are capable of enabling, ie two pounces per round (via martial maneuvers, beast totem or any other pounce option(s) plus Charge Through or similar granting a free bull rush or overrun attempt). Seems the expected DPR could easily end up being more than 2k, even vs very tough monsters of a high CR (like my personal favorite end game martial "crash test dummy", the iconic tarrasque).

This feature, or mostly the fact that it's granted at 6th level (thus making easily exploitable for damage builds already in mid levels) and that it doesn't simply add overkill numbers, but often allows for annihilating at least two enemies per round, is my only balance worry with AM so far. Not that it has a much higher risk of ruining a game than certain potentially devastating non-damage options (like for example martial demoralization), but more that it seems to have an at least equal risk of doing so while potentially radically upping the damage of the already quite silly natural attackers, causing power creep where it's arguably the least needed.

But knowing I'm prone to read things wrong, not being exactly great at CO, and having seen a few builds by PsyBomb which I found to be very competent, I'm suspecting I'm missing something vital here. Am I?

Also:
I’ve personally gotten this to 10 attacks (2 Claws, 2 Talons, 1 Horns, 1 Tail, 2 Tentacles, 1 racial Slam,1 Bite from another source)This also seems a bit low to me, even if we only consider a straight daevic 20 build and no AoOs or "attack repeaters" like haste or martial boosts. Especially since some veils and certain akashic races offer a few "permanent" natural attacks very difficult or impossible to find elsewhere, notably the racial "trunk-slam", and the talons and tentacles. For example, adding a Skin of Proteus gives two additional claws/bites/slams, and a mere 3 levels in other classes (alchemist 2 and monk 1) can allow for grabbing for example two additional claw attacks.

Hmm...

Crap. :smallsigh: Now I simply have to make a build experiment to see how far I can push this.

....

Aight, using only Paizo and DSP options, though including some stuff from the LotW playtest, this is what I ended up with:


BUILD OUTLINE
Ragebred Skinwalker Primal Disciple Barbarian 7, Daevic 6, Formless Master 4 (Barbarian 3), Ragechemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 2, Master of Many Styles Monk 1
N Gargantuan female humanoid (orc, shapechanger, skinwalker)
(Klau is of feelkha heritage and thus starts as Large sized, mostly because I believe the slightly elephantine look never goes out of akashic style and befits an "ishvari" on the rise, even a fledgling one of wrath and destruction. :smallbiggrin: It also hints at mysterious ancient family ties to ganapti or maybe even to a certain famous "Ole' Poppa Big-Trunk"-daeva of wisdom... And flavor-wise, I think Klau seems to be a pretty perfect avatar of violent ends to reflect the other side of said "Ole' Poppa's" peaceful beginnings, rising as a merciless mother of murder from the cold dark shadows cast by the warm and bright benevolent father of life. :smalltongue:)

Class and Feat Progression (Not optimized, retraining not shown.)
1 Barbarian 1 Beasthide Shift, Power Attack
2 Barbarian 2 -
3 Barbarian 3 Abomination Shift
4 Barbarian 4 -
5 Barbarian 5 Mixed Blood (Orc)
6 Formless 1 Sensory Shift
7 Formless 2, Barbarian 6 Magnitude Shift, Mighty Frame
8 Formless 3, Barbarian 7 Strongclaw Shift
9 Formless 4, Barbarian 8 Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem)
10 Barbarian 9 -
11 Barbarian 10 Extra Rage Power (Greater Beast Totem)
12 Monk 1 Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
13 Alchemist 1 Feral Combat Training (Claws)
14 Alchemist 2 -
15 Daevic 1 Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)
16 Daevic 2 -
17 Daevic 3 Dragon Ferocity
18 Daevic 4 -
19 Daevic 5 Charge Through
20 Daevic 6
Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid in Wayfinder Weapon Focus (Claws)
Skin of Proteus Improved Overrun

Ability Scores 20-point buy
Str 50 - 16 base, 2 racial, 5 level, 6 belt, 4 rage, 6 mutagen, 5 Strongclaw, 6 size Magnitude
Dex 13 - 11 base, 6 belt, -4 size
Con 26 - 14 base, 2 racial, 6 belt, 4 rage
Int 7 - 7 base, 2 headband, -2 mutagen
Wis 20 - 13 base, 6 headband, 1 tome
Cha 18 - 14 base, -2 racial, 6 headband

Miscellaneous
Rage Powers 28 rounds/day: Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Lesser Beast Totem
Traits Fate's Favored, Reactionary


OFFENSE VALUES
Values of pounce using Power Attack and Iron Knuckle, while in Dragon Style and Broken Blade stances, using all shifting feats and listed items, and affected by haste and strong jaw.

Attacks in Full Attack, Damage Die Sizes and Sources (Body-part/limb/equivalent used.)
Six Damage Die Size Increases above Medium: 1 Mighty Frame, 1 Large size race, 2 actual size increases Magnitude Shift, 2 damage die size increases wand of strong jaw
1 Gore 1d6 → 8d6, race (head?)
1 Bite 1d6 → 8d6, pelt of the beast (mouth?)
1 Sting 1d4 → 6d6, fleshwarped scorpion's tail (tail)
1 Dragon Beast-Claw (first claw attack in round) 1d8 → 12d6, lesser beast totem, Dragon Style (race hand/arm)
4 Beast-Claws 1d8 → 12d6, lesser beast totem, broken blade stance, haste (race hands/arms)
2 Proteus-Claws 1d8 → 8d8, skin of proteus (metamorphosis)
2 Strongclaws 1d4 → 6d6, Strongclaw Shift, vestigial arm discovery x2 (vestigial hands/arms, replaces monk unarmed strikes and pelt of the beast tiger claws)
2 Talons 1d4 → 6d6, sea drake's talons bound veil (legs/feet)

Attack and Damage Bonuses (Average values of bonus damage dice.)
+40 Bite, Gore, Sting and Talons Attack Bonus +18 bab, 20 Str, 1 orc subtype, 6 AoMF, 1 cracked pale green prism, 1 haste, 2 charge, -5 Power Attack, -4 size
+41 Claws Attack Bonus +40 as above, 1 Weapon Focus
+60 Bite, Gore, Sting and Talons Damage Bonus +20 Str, 1 orc subtype, 6 AoMF, 10 Power Attack, 2 broken blade discipline, 2d6 rhino hide, 4d6 Iron Knuckle
+75 Beast-Claws and Proteus-Claws Damage Bonus +60 as above, 10 Str Dragon Ferocity, 5 Power Attack
+77 Strongclaws Damage Bonus +75 as above, 2 Strongclaw Shift
+85 Dragon Beast-Claw Damage Bonus +75 as above, 10 Str Dragon Ferocity

Miscellaneous
+66 Overrun CMB, No Size Limit +18 bab, 20 Str, 1 orc, 5 Abomination, 2 Impr. Overrun, 2 gauntlets, 2 belt, 2 boots, 2 dusty rose prism, 1 pale green prism, 1 haste, 2 charge, 8 size Mighty Frame
25 ft. Melee Reach 20 Gargantuan size, 5 sudden reach
70 ft. Land, Climb and Burrow Speed 30 base speed, 10 skin of proteus, 30 haste, Strongclaw Shift



Provided I haven't seriously botched something, Klau Kali Ma-Ma's expected DPR ends up being approximately 3k vs the tarrasque, and slightly more vs just about anything else of equal or lower CR which Klau is able to charge. Actually I think it's the highest melee DPR I've ever seen a martial PF build pull off (at least without very extensive prep, party support and burning a huge pile of expensive/limited resources).

Of course, this is at 20th level when DPR numbers probably won't matter much anyways, and some options (like the Broken Blade Stance and/or certain shifting feats) might be in for a few changes which tone this down a bit. But the same basic combo can be pretty consistently used by a natural attacker in mid levels, using for example pounce and/or full attack maneuvers + Martial Charge, combined with 6 levels of wrath daevic.

(Btw, I blame Klau Kali Ma-Ma's ridiculously silly name on a combination of the Middle Eastern/Hindu/Buddhist inspirations for AM, an old discussion with Elricaltovilla where he wanted to prevent options from being exploited by multi-armed "kali builds" just like the above, the 80ies blockbuster "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", the fact that the "RL" Kali actually isn't just bad-ass but also actually multi-armed (go figure) and that the alchemist lets me add arms, and of course my poor imagination and my "bad pun"-OCD...)

[Thealtruistorc]

For the vizier, have you considered the Wand Dancer feat from Inner Sea World Guide? I envision it could be the basis for some interesting builds.

On top of that, do you think a section could be added for old incarnum feats or abilities from 3.5, in case a game wants to try backwards compatibility?

This is honestly a very handy guide, so thanks again for making it.

[Ssalarn]

On top of that, do you think a section could be added for old incarnum feats or abilities from 3.5, in case a game wants to try backwards compatibility?



That would be pretty cool! AM was always intended to allow easy backwards compatibility and be favorable for quick conversions to or from MoI.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A dex-based Akasin guru is on the short list of characters/builds I want to use. The campaign I'm looking to use it in is in an unpublished setting, and I'm going to play a small race that gets +Dex,+Wis,-Cha (it was -Str before, but it was stepping on another race's toes too much, and it makes sense, they're supposed to be hardened survivors), and gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. I was looking to use the two-bladed sword, and pick up Double Weapon Finesse from PoW. It'll eat up a lot of feats, but my build was going to be TWF->Double Weapon Finesse->Deadly Agility at 5th level. I can't really use any of my philosophy weapons to Gentle Touch until 3rd level. Any input?

[meemaas]

A question. I noticed in the Vizier guide that it seems veilshifting away the Dreamcatcher Veil frees up the essence locked to it? Can you confirm or deny this, because my reading seems to be that it's lock for 24 hours regardless of if it stays invested.

[Ssalarn]

A question. I noticed in the Vizier guide that it seems veilshifting away the Dreamcatcher Veil frees up the essence locked to it? Can you confirm or deny this, because my reading seems to be that it's lock for 24 hours regardless of if it stays invested.


Removing the veil via veilshifting also removes the essence limitation, since the limitation is also part of the veil.

[meemaas]

Beautiful. Thanks man. Love the work.

[Air0r]

Not sure if this has already come up, but I was reading through the Daevic guide and saw Enhanced Capacity rated light blue. but then the daevic's passion feature has this line on page 6:

"Because of the unusual nature of these veils, they cannot benefit from veil-specific feats or effects like Enhanced Capacity or akashic catalysts (though they can still be bound as normal)."

[Bahumut]

Hey Psybomb, looking through the final release of Akashic mysteries, I saw the Horselord's Greaves veil lists the Daevic and Vizier as having access to it (as your guides show), but the Veil List Table shows Daevic and Guru. I know full descriptions usually trump table entries, but has anyone confirmed if Daevic/Vizier is correct?

[AlienFromBeyond]

Not sure if this has already come up, but I was reading through the Daevic guide and saw Enhanced Capacity rated light blue. but then the daevic's passion feature has this line on page 6:

"Because of the unusual nature of these veils, they cannot benefit from veil-specific feats or effects like Enhanced Capacity or akashic catalysts (though they can still be bound as normal)."
Yes, you cannot take Enhanced Capacity for the veils from your Passion, but you can use it on the Passion itself. This is incredibly powerful since you have to remember that all your Passion veils count as having the same amount of essence as the Passion itself, making increases to it paramount.