Willing Targets

[Snowmantheory]

If I have interpreted the rules correctly, a willing target is either a target that is unconscious or a target that accepts your spell. Disregarding the unconscious part for now, would someone that accepts a spell technically know what spell they're accepting? I know that when using a counter spell, you need to roll a spell craft to identify a spell before anything. Would a spell craft check be in order to recognize that an accepted "enlarge person" is actually a charm person (just an example)? Any help in interpretation would be much appreciated.

[KillianHawkeye]

would someone that accepts a spell technically know what spell they're accepting? I know that when using a counter spell, you need to roll a spell craft to identify a spell before anything. Would a spell craft check be in order to recognize that an accepted "enlarge person" is actually a charm person (just an example)? Any help in interpretation would be much appreciated.

There are exactly two ways to know what kind of spell somebody is casting one you. One is the Spellcraft skill. The other is being told what the spell is going to be and believing the person who tells you. A person who lacks both Spellcraft and Sense Motive may be tricked into accepting a spell that is actually harmful to them.

Note, however, that the rules for willing targets only apply to certain spells which require a willing target (such as teleportation spells). It is not the same thing as voluntarily giving up one's saving throw. Unconscious people can still make Will saves, people you lie to can still make Fortitude saves, et cetera.

Edited to Add: I can't even find a rule saying that being unconscious (or even paralyzed!) stops you from making Reflex saves, which was the only one of the three saves I wasn't sure about!

[Sith_Happens]

Requiring a willing target is almost always mutually exclusive with allowing a saving throw, so as soon as someone with a basic understanding of magic saves against your spell they'll have some idea that it wasn't what you said it was.

"(Harmless)" spells, on the other hand...:smallamused:

[Sir Garanok]

Some SRD stuff:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Spellcraft

25 + spell level .After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.


So the answer is yes,you need a spellcraft check.
When you give up the saving throw,without a spellcraft check you have no clue what the spell was.
You have to roll and succeed to feel the hostile force(if there is any).


Edited to Add: I can't even find a rule saying that being unconscious (or even paralyzed!) stops you from making Reflex saves, which was the only one of the three saves I wasn't sure about!

Can't find anything clearly stating you don't roll,but

Reflex

These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Evasion

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade

I think it is made quite clear that you have to move to dodge and you have to dodge to reflex.

I guess it is DM' s option after all,i wouldn't allow paralyzed/helpless targets rolling.

[Khedrac]

If paralysed you have an effective dexterity of 0 - this gives a -5 penalty to Reflex saves (in place of your normal dex modifier), but you do still get to roll - you might get lucky and a cooler part of the fireball wash over you.

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with everything KillianHawkeye said, as amended by Sir Garanok.

I believe being unable to move precludes dodging and therefore deprives you of a Reflex save. The Dexterity penalty of -5 should be added only to the Armor Class of an object or an immobilized creature. Immobilized creatures shouldn't make Reflex saves at all.

I also have this to add. Making a saving throw against a spell does not generally require any knowledge of what the spell is, or even awareness that a spell has been cast. Moreover, awareness of a spell sometimes follows your saving throw and may even depend upon your saving throw; it does not have to precede your saving throw.

A creature that merely saves successfully against a spell "feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack" – unless, as KillianHawkeye pointed out, you make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell's effect.

The Spellcraft DC to identify a spell's effect is:


20 + spell level for spells whose effects are observable ("You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell"), or

25 + spell level for spells that affect you in some unobservable way, as Enchantment spells generally do.

On the other hand, making a failed save against a spell that has no observable effect may mean that you aren't aware that you've been affected by magic at all. I believe this is the way most people interpret Charm spells, for example. I interpret the Detect Thoughts spell in this way, too. If you save successfully against this spell, you know that somebody has tried to affect you with some kind of magic (probably Mind-Affecting magic, because the spell has no visible effect), but if your save against the Detect Thoughts spell fails, somebody reads your mind without your awareness.

[KillianHawkeye]

Here's what Rules Compendium has to say about Reflex Saves:

Reflex saves reflect physical (and sometimes mental) agility.
They incorporate quickness, nimbleness, hand-eye coordination,
overall coordination, speed, and reaction time. If an effect
seems like something that an agile person would be good at
avoiding, it’s a Reflex save. Apply your Dexterity modifier to
your Reflex saving throws.
You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for, but
your Dexterity or whether you can apply its modifier might
be altered by the situation.

Note the first sentence in the second paragraph. "You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for...." Nothing about the helpless, unconscious, paralyzed, or even petrified conditions states that you cannot make saving throws.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but those are the rules as far as I can find. And anyway, expecting things to make sense in Dungeons & Dragons is like expecting an opening show from Beyoncé at a KKK rally.


EDIT: The only place I can find where it says you automatically fail Reflex saves is when you have Dexterity as a nonability. This is not the same as having a Dexterity of zero. Having a zero Dex only makes you helpless.

[Venger]

the salient part about willing and how it interacts with saves


a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if
you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are
automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious
but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling,
paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

there's no rule against making a ref save when you're asleep/unconscious/paralyzed/stunned/etc.

[malonkey1]

I'm not saying it makes sense, but those are the rules as far as I can find. And anyway, expecting things to make sense in Dungeons & Dragons is like expecting an opening show from Beyoncé at a KKK rally.

You underestimate the Queen Bey.

[KillianHawkeye]

You underestimate the Queen Bey.

LOL

I make no statement on whether or not she would perform at such an event, only that the KKK would never EVER ask her to (unless they were secretly planning to kill her).

[Duke of Urrel]

"You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for...." Nothing about the helpless, unconscious, paralyzed, or even petrified conditions states that you cannot make saving throws.

[…]

The only place I can find where it says you automatically fail Reflex saves is when you have Dexterity as a nonability. This is not the same as having a Dexterity of zero. Having a zero Dex only makes you helpless.


there's no rule against making a ref save when you're asleep/unconscious/paralyzed/stunned/etc.

I stand corrected. Thank you, KillianHawkeye and Venger!

You have made me take another look at the Rules Compendium. I realize now, for the first time, that there is a distinction between Dexterity as a nonability (that is, "no Dexterity at all") and a Dexterity score of zero. This is why I read these threads…!

Interestingly, objects do not have no Dexterity at all; they have a Dexterity of zero and therefore add a -5 penalty to their Armor Class. Unattended, nonmagical objects don't make Reflex saves, but this is not because unattended, nonmagical objects have no Dexterity at all; it is because they are denied all saving throws, simply because they are unattended, nonmagical objects.

Another error that I must correct is my notion that the -5 Dexterity penalty applies only to Armor Class. It is the modifier that applies whenever a creature with a Dexterity score of zero uses Dexterity, and that means also in Reflex saves. Therefore, a creature that is helpless, paralyzed, or even pinned (but not one that is merely "immobilized") has an effective Dexterity score of zero and adds -5 to Reflex saves.

You have to use some deductive logic to determine that a petrified creature has a Dexterity score of zero, just like an unattended, nonmagical object.

(1) A petrified creature is unconscious.
(2) An unconscious creature is helpless.
(3) A helpless creature has a Dexterity score of zero.
(4) Therefore, a petrified creature has a Dexterity score of zero.

(Conveniently, rules 1, 2, and 3 all appear on page 35 of the Rules Compendium.)

***

I have something more to say about the clause "Unconscious creatures are considered willing." This clause applies specifically to spells that work only on willing targets. I interpret the clause this way because it appears (on page 134 of the Rules Compendium) in a paragraph that begins with the sentence "Some spells are restricted to willing targets only." The clause does not apply to spells that work on unwilling targets.

I don't know for certain whether a creature may voluntarily forego its saving throw while it is unconscious. The rules don't seem to have an answer. I believe the general rule, in the absence of any specific rule, is that unconscious creatures make saving throws, just as conscious ones do (and now that I've seen the light, I include Reflex saves in this rule).

It's pretty clear to me – and uncontroversial, I think – that choosing to make a saving throw against a spell explicitly identified as harmless can only be a conscious act. For example, you can choose to make a Will save against the Bear's Endurance spell, but only if you are conscious. The default is that you don't make a Will save against any harmless spell, and there's no reason why unconsciousness should change that. Interestingly, this rule may create an exception to my general observation, made in my previous posting, that you do not need to have any knowledge of a spell in order to make a saving throw against it. If you generally forfeit making Will saves against harmless spells by default – that is, even while you're unconscious – then it seems to me that you must know that a spell is harmless in order to choose to make a Will save against it anyway.

Unfortunately, most spells, including many that do no real harm, aren't conveniently labeled "harmless." So with respect to most spells, I still don't know how to answer the question of whether you can voluntarily forego a saving throw while you're unconscious. My inclination is to say that you can't. For example, if you cast the Enlarge Person spell or the Reduce Person spell on an unconscious comrade, I prefer to say that she can't voluntarily forego making a Fortitude save against the effect. If Spell Resistance can be suppressed only by a conscious creature (with a standard action, no less), then I believe a saving throw also can be forfeited only by a conscious creature (though this may require no action at all).

I am interested in counter-arguments, however!

[Curmudgeon]

Some SRD stuff:
...
Evasion

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade

I think it is made quite clear that you have to move to dodge and you have to dodge to reflex.

I guess it is DM' s option after all,i wouldn't allow paralyzed/helpless targets rolling.
You left out some stuff (from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#evasionAndImprovedEvasion) and DMG page 293):
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion. Those are the only two listed "don't have room to move" conditions in the rules. Excepting those cases, everybody gets Reflex saves. You don't need to know an attack is coming, so sleeping/unconscious characters save normally. The D&D version of paralysis doesn't prevent saving, because D&D paralysis lets the creature keep their balance to remain standing, keep breathing, and keep swallowing so they don't choke to death on their own saliva. That is, a paralyzed creature with room to move can move reflexively in their own space. Being paralyzed messes significantly with their likelihood of saving because it reduces DEX to 0, but it doesn't prevent making the saving throw.

[ace rooster]

You left out some stuff (from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#evasionAndImprovedEvasion) and DMG page 293):

Those are the only two listed "don't have room to move" conditions in the rules. Excepting those cases, everybody gets Reflex saves. You don't need to know an attack is coming, so sleeping/unconscious characters save normally. The D&D version of paralysis doesn't prevent saving, because D&D paralysis lets the creature keep their balance to remain standing, keep breathing, and keep swallowing so they don't choke to death on their own saliva. That is, a paralyzed creature with room to move can move reflexively in their own space. Being paralyzed messes significantly with their likelihood of saving because it reduces DEX to 0, but it doesn't prevent making the saving throw.

What he said, with one slight thing.



As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.


Unless there is another section that prevents saves in these cases the character can save normally, they just cannot use evasion.

[Curmudgeon]

Unless there is another section that prevents saves in these cases the character can save normally, they just cannot use evasion.
The mechanism of Evasion is by using a Reflex save. They can't use Evasion because they don't have the room to move required to make a Reflex save.

[Duke of Urrel]

While we're on the topic of conditions that prohibit Reflex saves, here's another one that nobody has mentioned so far. I can't believe I forgot this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#dcPits).


A character who fails to detect a covered pit is still entitled to a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling into it. However, if she was running or moving recklessly at the time, she gets no saving throw and falls automatically.

[Curmudgeon]

That would be a special property of the trap rather than a general prohibition. That is, you don't get a Reflex save to avoid a covered pit trap if you're running. However, if an enemy uses a readied action to cast Fireball nearby while you're running, you still get to make a Reflex save for half damage (or no damage if you have Evasion). There are a bunch of traps which have no saving throws; a covered pit trap just sometimes has no saving throw.