Sorcerer Help?

[Atsull]

It seems like everyone has accepted wizard as simply better than sorcerer. I'm trying to make on from level one, so I had 2 questions:

Why is Sorcerer less powerful than wizard?

What race, skills, other classes, spells, and feats should you take to make the most powerful sorcerer possible?

[Troacctid]

A. Because Wizards are more versatile, not being limited to spells known, and B. because Sorcerers are always a level behind on new spells.

The former is what puts the Wizard above the Sorcerer from a tier perspective, but in practice, it's usually the latter that's more damning; being a prepared caster has upsides and downsides compared to being a spontaneous caster, but being behind a level is 100% downside.

[Forrestfire]

At its core, the sorcerer is weaker than the wizard for a few reasons:

The most major one is the small amount of spells known. A wizard can theoretically know every spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, with just a small expenditure of gold (or little to no gold at all, if you have a Boccob's Blessed Book), while a Sorcerer only has a small amount of spells known, and can't change them without retraining of some sort. He can get extra spells at the cost of feats, but it's nowhere near the Wizard's versatility.
Getting spells one level later. This one is also huge. Sorcerers get access to a new level of spells a level past the Wizard, so the Wizard will always be ahead on the power curve.
Lack of good class abilities. The Sorcerer gets a familiar and some ACFs for that. The Wizard gets the familiar and bonus feats, specialization (and Focused Specialist, which gives them just as many spells per day as a Sorcerer), and a wide variety of really great ACFs.
Spontaneous casting mechanics mean that you're going to have a bad time when using Metamagic feats unless you've got other feats to mitigate the action cost.
Cha focus is less versatile than Int focus. Social skills can often be substituted by spells, but skill points are harder to get, and Knowledge skills are great for identifying what you're fighting.



Now, while wizards are stronger than sorcerers as a class, there are some things that Sorcerers do better than them. Sorcerers have access to a some amazing spells, namely Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, and (Greater) Arcane Fusion. Cover shuts down an attack or spell as an immediate action. Any attack or targeted thing. As a 2nd-level slot. A Wizard can take Extra Spell to grab it, but they don't get it natively. Flurry is an uncapped by CL AoE damage spell that only hits enemies, and also dazes anything that fails the save. Daze is probably the strongest crowd control effect in the game, because it's so hard to be immune to. These two also get bonuses if you're dragonblooded, so they're pretty great.

I think that the most major thing that Sorcerers do better than Wizards is blasting. Arcane Fusion and its Greater version form the linchpin of the Mailman Sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181), a build able to toss out tons and tons (potentially infinite, if you loop it right at a high enough level) of no-save, no-SR direct damage. Wizards have a much harder time doing that, having to spend a bunch of feats to get the required spells and abilities to pull it off.

[Divide by Zero]

Don't forget that the sorcerer is still Tier 2. They may be weaker than the wizard, but with smart spell selection you can still solo the Monster Manual.

[Ratatoskir]

And at low levels of optimization the difference is smaller. Sorcerer only get a few tools to use, but they are enough for most situations, and can spam them easier than wizards. Odd levels still suck for them though

[Divide by Zero]

And at low levels of optimization the difference is smaller. Sorcerer only get a few tools to use, but they are enough for most situations, and can spam them easier than wizards. Odd levels still suck for them though

I'd say the difference is smallest at mid-op levels, when the player knows enough to use those few tools with some degree of efficiently. Too low, and you run into the problem of not being able to swap out your spells known very easily.

[eggynack]

I tend to explain this by way of example, and that example is just about always planar binding. Wizards have a relatively easy time making use of planar binding. They take a day off, spend some time casting a bunch of spells that they added to their book at a relatively cheap price, and they get a friendly minion. The process might take awhile, and there might be some necessary cha boosting, but it's a move that's basically just in any wizard's repertoire.

Now, consider the sorcerer trying to do the same thing. Assuming you start at a relatively early level, you're going to eventually want all three spells in the planar binding line, so that you can keep up with the wizard at all points in your progression, so that's three spells known right off the bat. Then you need magic circle against, say, evil, and if you want to get access to all the creatures a wizard has, you also want magic circle against good. Finally, you need dimensional anchor, which when added to all those other necessities, takes a seven spell bite out of your spells known. You don't necessarily need all of those spells, you might want a couple of them for other purposes, and there can be trading away of old planar bindings, but it's still a whole lot of spells known.

It's an issue that hits the sorcerer in a lot of areas. Wizards can turn time into knowledge through divinations, and can even use spontaneous divination to do so without taking a day off of preparing combat spells, but sorcerers can't afford nearly that many spells of that variety. Wizards can make excellent use of long term buffs, but a sorcerer doing the same loses what little in combat versatility they gain through the spontaneous casting mechanic. Wizards have all kinds of utility, things that have impact beyond the day to day adventuring that parties are party to, but every time a sorcerer attempts the same, it pulls from their ability to actually do that day to day adventuring. It's a big problem for sorcerers.

[Ratatoskir]

Too low, and you run into the problem of not being able to swap out your spells known very easily.I definitely see your point, but in a low optimization environment spells that will be useful are very hard to miss. Fireball, for instance, while not a strong spell, works just fine in most modules, and is an "obvious" choice of a spell known. I dunno, sorcerer was my first dnd character and I kept up with my party fine. Then again, I tended to blast things, so there is that.

[Scorponok]

I've been DMing a particular campaign for a little more than 4 years now, and though Wizard may be more powerful than Sorcerer in most other settings, I think they may be pretty even in mine. Point being that in my campaign, the players literally want to go from one fight to another, and they are in such a rush to stop several big bad forces from accomplishing their goals that it would be much easier for a Wizard to be drained completely of spells before a Sorcerer is. At level 4, the Wizard has 4-4-3 spells per day, (0-level, 1-level, and 2-level) all having to have been prepared just right for the encounter the players believe they are going into, where a Sorcerer has 6-7-4 spells per day. (Assuming both have high enough of their required scores to have extra castings.) That's an extra 6 spells a day the Sorcerer can cast vs. the Wizard. At mid levels (say, 8) the difference becomes 4-5-4-4-3 vs. 6-7-7-6-4. A difference of +10 more spells for the Sorcerer. In deep dungeons where the party isn't expecting to rest, a Sorcerer will outlast a Wizard. Worse yet, the party will have to stop adventuring sooner due to a wizard running out of spells as opposed to a sorcerer.

I agree the Wizard has much higher potential power than a Sorcerer, but in practice, it is closer than what I've seen people discuss here. Not only that, but because a Wizard has less spells than a Sorcerer, they had better come with the right selection of spells for the encounter because if they pick a more generalized selection, the Sorcerer still beats them in that category, being able to switch from say, a more HP damage blasting caster to a debuffer at will. The Wizard might have one debuffing spell, two buffing spells, and a blasting spell. The Sorcerer can instantly turn into a main blaster, main debuffer, or main buffer on a whim and have a ton of spells to do it from.

I'm finding that Wizards need to rely much more on knowing what they are going up against and preparing for that encounter. Sorcerers are more adept at dealing with on-the-fly changes in situations. In campaigns where the party goes from one bad situation to the next and has a lot of enemies to fight at once, I'd have a tough time deciding on whether I prefer a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

[eggynack]

@Scorponok: That comparison seems a bit biased towards sorcerers. Take your 4th level comparison, completely disregard cantrips because they're not a particularly valuable thing from an endurance perspective, and toss on domain wizard, and suddenly the sorcerer is only running two spells over the wizard instead of six. Add elven generalist, and now the sorcerer is only running one extra spell. Swap all of that for focused specialist, and now the two are equal, and the wizard still likely has more versatility. Moreover, in both of the last two comparisons, the wizard is actually running more 2nd level slots, which is the biggest contributor to spell power at that level.

You can apply the same to your 8th level comparison, with only a four spell difference under domain wizard, three under elven generalist domain wizard, and again, zero under focused specialist, with the wizard with the advantage of more high level slots. Things obviously get much worse for the sorcerer once we start considering odd levels instead of even, because then the wizard is just running higher levels of spell, and often just a greater number of spells/day in general. Sorcerers just don't have that much of an advantage on this front, at least at reasonable levels of wizard optimization, and even something as simple as regular specialization can bridge the gap by a lot.

[Scorponok]

^ I haven't heard of any of those, and I was comparing SRD Wiz to SRD Sor. You're comparing optimized Wizard to SRD Sorcerer. I'm by no means an optimizer and aside from the Completes, haven't delved into the other books. I'd like to see someone compare an optimized wizard vs an optimized sorcerer.

Besides that, I agree with you the cantrips shouldn't really count.

[eggynack]

^ I haven't heard of any of those, and I was comparing SRD Wiz to SRD Sor. You're comparing optimized Wizard to SRD Sorcerer. I'm by no means an optimizer and aside from the Completes, haven't delved into the other books. I'd like to see someone compare an optimized wizard vs an optimized sorcerer.

The thing of it is, I'm pretty sure that is an optimized sorcerer. Sorcerers don't have specialization, or things akin to specialization, so increased levels of optimization strictly bridge the spells/day gap. Also, domain wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) is in fact in the SRD, as is specialization. Focused specialist and elven generalist are outside of that particular scope, but even without those things we're still looking at a pretty small gap.

[AmberVael]

Why is Sorcerer less powerful than wizard?

Because the Sorcerer can only completely alter the game in a few preset ways, while the Wizard can completely alter the game in as many ways as he can find or buy.

The short of it is "don't worry about it Sorcerers are fine."

[Agincourt]

The domain wizard is expressly a variant rule. It's not safe to assume that this is an option a player may take in a particular game.

[Blackhawk748]

Ill put it how i saw someone once put it:

The Wizard is like a professional company, they come out one day, assess the situation, and come back tomorrow with the perfect tool for the job. (this is of course in theory)

The Sorcerer is your handy uncle and his toolbox. He can do pretty much everything the professional company can do, to a point. The big difference is that he can usually fix it the same day. (this is assuming that the toolbox is well assembled)

To put it bluntly, the Wizard can solve any problem......... tomorrow. So the Sorcerer's biggest strength is that he can solve most problems when he encounters them. Also the Sorcerer has more spells available to him at any given time then the Wizard, the Wizard can just change that list out.

Basically their power discrepancy isnt quite as high in actual gameplay, and the spells known issue can be mitigated by taking a level of Sandshaper.

In short "When all you've got is fire spells, everything is flammable. Yes, even that."-Unknown Sorcerer

[LTwerewolf]

^ I haven't heard of any of those, and I was comparing SRD Wiz to SRD Sor. You're comparing optimized Wizard to SRD Sorcerer. I'm by no means an optimizer and aside from the Completes, haven't delved into the other books. I'd like to see someone compare an optimized wizard vs an optimized sorcerer.

Besides that, I agree with you the cantrips shouldn't really count.

There aren't any sorcerer alternate class features that add more spells per day. Also without a few very specific prestige classes that GIVE you spells known (which the wizard can also get) there isn't really anything that increases that by much either, at least not as easily as a wizard. Scroll>knowstone as far as cost goes (by quite a bit). One of the only ACFs for sorcerer actually removes a spell per day for each spell level (battle sorcerer) and the other removes your familiar to be able to use metamagic like a wizard already can.



The domain wizard is expressly a variant rule. It's not safe to assume that this is an option a player may take in a particular game.

That's true. specialist and focused specialist aren't. It's pretty easy to drop evocation, enchantment, and one more and still have every bit of versatility through transmutation and conjuration that you had before.

[Asrrin]

There are other ways to get a sorcerer up to par with a wizard. DWK and greater draconic rite put them at picking up spell levels at the same rate, and things like ancestral relic and Rainbow Servant or Sandshaper can lessen the gap in skills known. At that point, it's a comparison between a wizard's free feats, ACFs like Abrupt Jaunt or Domain Wizard, and the Sorcerer's spontaneous casting.

[LTwerewolf]

There are other ways to get a sorcerer up to par with a wizard. DWK and greater draconic rite put them at picking up spell levels at the same rate, and things like ancestral relic and Rainbow Servant or Sandshaper can lessen the gap in skills known. At that point, it's a comparison between a wizard's free feats, ACFs like Abrupt Jaunt or Domain Wizard, and the Sorcerer's spontaneous casting.

You can also do the exact same thing, but go with the spellhoarding template, and be a wizard that's a caster level ahead of the same sorcerer.

[Extra Anchovies]

You can also do the exact same thing, but go with the spellhoarding template, and be a wizard that's a caster level ahead of the same sorcerer.

Spellhoarding is True Dragons only, I'm afraid. Dragonwrought only gives the dragon type, which means no Spellhoarding, and no Sovereign Archetypes either. If a DWK is a true dragon by virtue of its having the dragon type, then so are dragon turtles and half-dragons, as well as all other non-true dragons of the dragon type.

[LTwerewolf]

Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories. Stated by Draconomicon page 4. The ones you listed do not advance through age categories, whereas dwk specifically does.

This argument has been done to death, suffice it to say you're wrong. It may not be RAI, it may be an unintended consequence, but there it is.

[Extra Anchovies]

Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories. Stated by Draconomicon page 4. The ones you listed do not advance through age categories, whereas dwk specifically does.


Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in official sources.
Appendix 2 lists every lesser dragon that has been described in a Dungeons & Dragons rulebook or accessory.

The appendix makes no mention of Kobolds or Dragonwrought Kobolds (in fact, the word Dragonwrought never appears in the book). Thus, they are neither True Dragons, nor are they Lesser Dragons. They are only creatures of the Dragon type.

[Ratatoskir]

Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories. Stated by Draconomicon page 4. The ones you listed do not advance through age categories, whereas dwk specifically does.

This argument has been done to death, suffice it to say you're wrong. It may not be RAI, it may be an unintended consequence, but there it is.

The page you referenced makes two relevant definitions involving dragons:

1) "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they get older"

2) "Other creatures" (Non-true dragons) "that do not advance by age category are referred to as lesser dragons"

Where am I missing the connection that kobolds=true dragons?

[Blackhawk748]

Where am I missing the connection that kobolds=true dragons?

Trust me, this isn't as easy as it looks, and there have been multiple threads dedicated to this argument. I know somebody on here has a link to one of the threads in their sig. For the life of me i can't remember who it is, but i believe the thread came to the conclusion that they are not True Dragons.

But lets not discuss this here as this will quickly devolve and i doubt is going to help the OP with a build.

[Ratatoskir]

Trust me, this isn't as easy as it looks, and there have been multiple threads dedicated to this argument. I know somebody on here has a link to one of the threads in their sig. For the life of me i can't remember who it is, but i believe the thread came to the conclusion that they are not True Dragons.

But lets not discuss this here as this will quickly devolve and i doubt is going to help the OP with a build.

Its seems obvious to me that they aren't as well. And your right, total derailment. My bad.

[Blackhawk748]

Its seems obvious to me that they aren't as well. And your right, total derailment. My bad.

Its fine, these things happen.

Anyhow, for a pretty potent Sorcerer, id go with Aasimar (woo Cha bonus) Sorc 6/Sandshaper 8/Escalation Mage 6. Its not world breakingly epic, but its still fairly sweet. Sandshaper gives you a bunch of spells known, as well as Free Metamagic usage. Escalation Mage simply expands upon this, but you risk your HP, but you'll probably be fine.

[LTwerewolf]

The appendix makes no mention of Kobolds or Dragonwrought Kobolds (in fact, the word Dragonwrought never appears in the book). Thus, they are neither True Dragons, nor are they Lesser Dragons. They are only creatures of the Dragon type.

Because the dragonwrought feat was printed after the draconomicon (it's in dragon magic) and thus they couldn't have possibly included it.

[Petrocorus]

Cha focus is less versatile than Int focus. Social skills can often be substituted by spells, but skill points are harder to get, and Knowledge skills are great for identifying what you're fighting.

Now, while wizards are stronger than sorcerers as a class, there are some things that Sorcerers do better than them. Sorcerers have access to a some amazing spells, namely Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, and (Greater) Arcane Fusion. Cover shuts down an attack or spell as an immediate action. Any attack or targeted thing. As a 2nd-level slot. A Wizard can take Extra Spell to grab it, but they don't get it natively. Flurry is an uncapped by CL AoE damage spell that only hits enemies, and also dazes anything that fails the save. Daze is probably the strongest crowd control effect in the game, because it's so hard to be immune to. These two also get bonuses if you're dragonblooded, so they're pretty great.


There are two thing that the Sorcerer do better than Wizard IMHO.
First, their Cha focus seems to allow them to multiclass better with some martial classes, notably the Pally and the Crusader, making them an easier base to build a gish, i believe.

Two, thank to Hoard Life (RotD) and Undying Vigor the Dragonlords (DMagic), the sorcerer can heal, and spam it.

[Forrestfire]

Yeah, Sorcerers are better at healing than Wizards, but that's mostly because their high Charisma scores lets them take a cross-class rank or two of Use Magic Device and more reliably activate lesser vigor wands. Those two spells are pretty great panic buttons, though.

... Thinking about it, Sorcerer is probably what I'd use for a combat healer, because they have to burn less feats for Immediate Action heals.


Let's compare...

Wizard (with Spontaneous Divination ACF):

Chain Spell
Reach Spell
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell)
Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell)
Easy Metamagic (Reach Spell)
Extra Spell (Adept list Heal)
Arcane Thesis (Heal)


Seven feats, one of which has to be taken at level 9, the other at 12, and you can celerity -> heal people. Silverbrow Human lets and Spontaneous Divination lets you qualify for Practical Metamagic. You could use a Rod of Reaching rather than reach spell, but that'd require Spell Mastery and Signature Spell, and delay the build by a few levels (and also use the same amount of feats).


Sorcerer (Domain Access [Healing Domain] ACF):

Chain Spell
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell)
Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell)
Rapid Metamagic [taken at 9th]
Arcane Thesis (Heal) [taken at 12th]


In this case, you end up using your 6th-level slots instead of your 5th-level slots, but it allows you to use a Metamagic Rod of Reaching and then spontaneously apply Chain Spell, rather than requiring the extra feats to prepare it. With only five feats required, it frees you up two slots to grab Least Dragonmark and Mark of the Dauntless, or Quick Recovery, netting you the ability to ignore the daze that comes after. In addition, you can get Extra Spell at level 6 if you want, and grab Close Wounds for more in-combat healing (on top of being able to now use cure wands). Or spend the feats on other stuff, since you've got the slots anyway.

Optimal? Hell no. A pretty decent method of in-combat healing? Yes. Overkill probably? Also yes. But hey, you can immediate-action heal every one of your allies a bunch of times per day.

[Scorponok]

I've also heard it said, Wizards are engineers, Sorcerers are mechanics.

Also, is there anything a wizard can do that matches the spell output of a level-10 Sorcerer who has Arcane Fusion and Greater Celerity?

Example, (for evocation Sorcerer, I know there is worse stuff you can do.), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Fireball, Celerity, Fireball.

140 to 190 damage, no saves except for the fireballs at the end, 1 STANDARD ACTION!

[Blackhawk748]

I've also heard it said, Wizards are engineers, Sorcerers are mechanics.

Also, is there anything a wizard can do that matches the spell output of a level-10 Sorcerer who has Arcane Fusion and Greater Celerity?

Example, (for evocation Sorcerer, I know there is worse stuff you can do.), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Fireball, Celerity, Fireball.

140 to 190 damage, no saves except for the fireballs at the end, 1 STANDARD ACTION!

Hahaha, oh ya, i forget that Sorcerers can nova like a Psionic character. Just one more reason that i love them. And im sure there is SOMETHING a Wizard could do, but it would prbly require more work than with the Sorcerer

[Karnith]

Example, (for evocation Sorcerer, I know there is worse stuff you can do.), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Arcane Fusion (Ice Storm/Magic Missiles), Celerity, Fireball, Celerity, Fireball.

140 to 190 damage, no saves except for the fireballs at the end, 1 STANDARD ACTION!
Note that, if I'm parsing it correctly, your example doesn't work because it involves using too many immediate actions in one turn - you generally need to use Celerity as one of your Arcane Fusion spells to continue getting extra actions. So one version might be Arcane Fusion into Magic Missile and Celerity, into another Arcane Fusion and so on. Otherwise you're just getting two Arcane Fusions in one round (one from normal actions, and one off of Celerity), which admittedly is impressive on its own.

Wizards are also capable of breaking the action economy in half. The two classes share a number of methods for extra actions - Time Stop, Contingency and Contingent Spells, Shapechange into creatures like the Choker or Chronotyryn, Planar Bubble with the right native plane, and so on - but Wizards generally tend to have an advantage in fielding bodies (though they do get Twinned Celerity easier than Sorcerers).

[Petrocorus]

Yeah, Sorcerers are ...snipped... can immediate-action heal every one of your allies a bunch of times per day.

Oh my... You put a lot of thought into this.
I was simply thinking to take Hoard Life as a spell known and the Healing Hand reserve feat. No immediate action healing for everybody, but unlimited out-of-fight Lay-On Hands for the Sorcadin and other Cha-synergy gish build.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh my... You put a lot of thought into this.
I was simply thinking to take Hoard Life as a spell known and the Healing Hand reserve feat. No immediate action healing for everybody, but unlimited out-of-fight Lay-On Hands for the Sorcadin and other Cha-synergy gish build.

Healing Hand only triggers when you stabilize a dying character. How is that unlimited?

[Petrocorus]

Healing Hand only triggers when you stabilize a dying character. How is that unlimited?

My bad, i was thinking about the Touch of Healing reserve feat.
It's limited in that you cannot heal above half the character maximum of HP, but unlimited in that you can use it as many times as you want on a given day.

[Extra Anchovies]

My bad, i was thinking about the Touch of Healing reserve feat.
It's limited in that you cannot heal above half the character maximum of HP, but unlimited in that you can use it as many times as you want on a given day.

The thing is, unlimited out-of-combat restoration of the party to half HP can be done by anyone with the Draconic Aura feat, choosing the Vigor aura.

Tangent: One of my favorite theoretical adventuring party configurations is Binder, Warlock, Totemist/Warblade, Bard with one or more instances of Extra Music, and Factotum, all Dragonblooded and with Draconic Aura. They can handle pretty much any number of normal encounters per day (essentially, 1 per day per class level of the bard, +4/day per Extra Music), and will have enough variance in abilities to deal with pretty much anything that's thrown at them. If there's an obstacle they can't pass? They wait a day and come back with different melds, arcane dilettante spells, and visages, and have another try.

[Petrocorus]

The thing is, unlimited out-of-combat restoration of the party to half HP can be done by anyone with the Draconic Aura feat, choosing the Vigor aura.

Except that the vigor aura is the one aura not available with the Draconic Aura feat but only to Dragon Shaman.
Granted, many DM would allow it, but it's not RAW.

[Extra Anchovies]

Except that the vigor aura is the one aura not available with the Draconic Aura feat but only to Dragon Shaman.
Granted, many DM would allow it, but it's not RAW.


Benefit: When you select this feat, choose a draconic aura (see page 86). You can project this aura as a swift action. Its benefit applies to you and to all allies within 30 feet. The bonus of your draconic aura is +1. The aura remains in effect until you dismiss it (a free action), you are rendered unconscious or dead, or you activate another draconic aura in its place.
Really? Where does it say that you can't take the Vigor aura? I am confused.

[Karnith]

Really? Where does it say that you can't take the Vigor aura? I am confused.
If you check pages 86 and 87 of Dragon Magic (the list of auras referenced in the feat description), you will find that the Vigor aura is absent. Dragon Shaman auras are separate from the draconic auras presented in Dragon Magic, though a Dragon Shaman may choose any of the Dragon Magic auras in place of one of her regular auras.

[Fax Celestis]

As far as making sorc better goes, I'm a big fan of the Sherem-Lar Sorcery and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery feats from Ghostwalk. They're both first-level only and one requires the other, and you've got to be a female human member of a setting-specific noble family (or Azurin, or silverbrow human, or half-elf with a flaw I guess, or a necropolitan if you finagle it right, or just ask your DM to waive the setting specific prereq, so ymmv, aydm). However, trading two feats to treat your CHA as if it were 4 higher for the purposes of determining DCs and bonus spells of all your spells is a lot. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus is limited to one school of magic and only provides +2 DC in comparison, and Sherem/Sherezem-Lar Sorcery stacks with it (and with practically everything else, considering its an untyped bonus to your CHA score).

Plus it makes your eyes green.

[Blackhawk748]

*whole lot of goodness* Plus it makes your eyes green.

*walks off to go make a Sherem/Sherezem-Lar Sorceress* She shall be named Kahlan and she shall be a compulsion specialist.

[Optimator]

My group gave sorcerers normal spell advancement like a wizard, took away the metamagic action increase, and made it so they can spend XP and gold to get more spells known.

We still think Wizards are better :smallwink:

[Stoic]

As far as making sorc better goes, I'm a big fan of the Sherem-Lar Sorcery and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery feats from Ghostwalk. They're both first-level only and one requires the other, and you've got to be a female human member of a setting-specific noble family (or Azurin, or silverbrow human, or half-elf with a flaw I guess, or a necropolitan if you finagle it right, or just ask your DM to waive the setting specific prereq, so ymmv, aydm). However, trading two feats to treat your CHA as if it were 4 higher for the purposes of determining DCs and bonus spells of all your spells is a lot. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus is limited to one school of magic and only provides +2 DC in comparison, and Sherem/Sherezem-Lar Sorcery stacks with it (and with practically everything else, considering its an untyped bonus to your CHA score).

Plus it makes your eyes green.


Does the Sorcerer Variant (Blood of Siberys) stack with that?

It also treats your Charisma as being +4 for the purpose of determining bonus Sorcerer spells and the maximum spell level you can cast in exchange for giving up being able to summon a familiar.

And I wonder if the "Spellcasting Prodigy" feat can be thrown on top of that as well. (You would have to use a flaw to squeeze it in as another feat at first level.)


For the OP, you can expand the Sorcerer's spells known with the following items:

Runestaff (MIC)
Drake Helm (Explorer's Handbook)
Knowstones (Drag Mag 333)
Ring of Theurgy (CArc)


And Biffoniacus_Furiou has excellent advice on making a Runestaff into a ancestral relic.
(In which case you won't even need the other items listed.)


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14529581&postcount=4

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16071342&postcount=11

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14530852&postcount=15

[Fax Celestis]

Not sure. Depends on the language. If it doesn't have explicit stacking text and says "treat as 4 higher", then probably not, for the same reason powerful build and monkey grip don't stack.

[Scorponok]

Note that, if I'm parsing it correctly, your example doesn't work because it involves using too many immediate actions in one turn -.

I don't follow. Is there a limit to the number of immediate actions a PC can have? Reading on the SRD, it just says it can be performed at any time - even if it's not your turn. And if there is a limit, could the SOR use Celerity after every action of another player instead? (Example - Bob moves and swings his sword, SOR uses Celerity and casts a spell, then Amy moves and swings her sword, SOR uses Celerity and casts a spell.) I'm asking for RAW. There's no way I'd allow it as a DM.

[eggynack]

I don't follow. Is there a limit to the number of immediate actions a PC can have? Reading on the SRD, it just says it can be performed at any time - even if it's not your turn. And if there is a limit, could the SOR use Celerity after every action of another player instead? (Example - Bob moves and swings his sword, SOR uses Celerity and casts a spell, then Amy moves and swings her sword, SOR uses Celerity and casts a spell.) I'm asking for RAW. There's no way I'd allow it as a DM.
To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions):
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

[Vizzerdrix]

What race, skills, other classes, spells, and feats should you take to make the most powerful sorcerer possible?

I'll give you the advice I have learned, but in the end play however makes you most happy.

On races: If the DM allows, The dragon kobold is the way to go. If not, then strongheart Halfling is darn fine. If that too isn't allowed, anything with a Cha boost, or if you rolled a high Cha, a Dex or Con boost.

On skills: Concentration, then whatever for your first PrC. You will want to enter one, any one, as soon as you can. Try for early access if you can.

On other classes: Thou shall not dip if it costs you your last 9th level spell. So about 2 levels of non or alternate casting. Paladin 2 for Cha to all saves is very good. You will have low feats and skills so plan ahead for your PrC. My favorite is Mage of the Arcane Order, but many others will mention Sand Shaper and Incanatrix (which I most likely spelt wrong). A good rule of thumb is if it grants extra spells and features its better than staying Sorc.

On your own class: Your familiar is a trap. Drop it for the ability to use meta magic.

On Feats: Versatile Caster and Heighten Spell . They are priority. Your first and second feat in that order. The first gives you more bang for the day, the second lets lower level save spells stay relevant much longer. Together they'll help you get into PrCs at a wizard's pace. Think of it as a 2 feat band-aid in that respect. If you swapped out your familiar then meta magic is open to you. Your selection will depend on your play style.

On spells: My own rule of thumb is thus: Protection, HP attack, Mobility, Save attack. I pick spells that way until I have one good spell for each save and about 3 or 4 mobility spells, then I start adding utility. Of course you'll want a buff or De-buff in the mix as well. Add to taste. Don't be afraid to take a spell simply because it looks fun. Sometimes a silly spell turns out to be better than you thought. Also do not underestimate your cantrips. They may be small but if you are clever they'll protect you better than some high level spells.

[Sgt. Cookie]

One more thing to note is this line:


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Note the bolded part. That line is the ONE thing Sorcerers get over Wizards. This little line means that the Sorcerer can learn any spell in existence.

You know that super-specific spell that only appears on some out-of-the-way prestige class with bizarre entry requirements? Yeah, you don't have to bother with that PrC. You're a Sorcerer, you can just learn it.

Can the Wizard do that? Can it balls.

[eggynack]

One more thing to note is this line:

Note the bolded part. That line is the ONE thing Sorcerers get over Wizards. This little line means that the Sorcerer can learn any spell in existence.

You know that super-specific spell that only appears on some out-of-the-way prestige class with bizarre entry requirements? Yeah, you don't have to bother with that PrC. You're a Sorcerer, you can just learn it.

Can the Wizard do that? Can it balls.
The issue is that there's not much in the way of a clearly constructed procedure for how the sorcerer goes about acquiring these off-list spells, so it's pretty much entirely DM adjudication territory. And, once we're in DM adjudication territory, the spell research rules allow the wizard to compete reasonably in the off-list spell game.

[Scorponok]

On spells: My own rule of thumb is thus: Protection, HP attack, Mobility, Save attack. I pick spells that way until I have one good spell for each save and about 3 or 4 mobility spells, then I start adding utility. Of course you'll want a buff or De-buff in the mix as well. Add to taste. Don't be afraid to take a spell simply because it looks fun. Sometimes a silly spell turns out to be better than you thought. Also do not underestimate your cantrips. They may be small but if you are clever they'll protect you better than some high level spells.

Interesting. I've been thinking about spell selection lately, and it seems beneficial spells, overall, will help your party more than ones that harm the enemy. Friends won't save against a beneficial spell, and they are usually close by for you to cast, meaning your SOR doesn't need to worry about range.

That's another thing too. I try to avoid those touch type harming spells like Shocking Grasp. Why would a SOR be that close to the enemy? Medium/Long range or GTFO I say!