Feat selection @Lvl 1

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'm rolling a human rogue with 18 dex. I forget my other ability scores at the moment. I'm stuck between mobility and sharpshooter. I'll be using daggers and darts dual wielding (DM gave the ok on dual darts since they're basically daggers), using a short bow occasionally. I have a cleric, wizard, and barbarian in the party.

Sharpshooter would let me make use of darts and daggers from impossible distances while ignoring most cover.

Mobility would greatly boost my cunning action: dash, and would give me greater battlefield maneuverability. And moving 120' when I need to escape is pretty significant.

[DrBurr]

I'd go with Sharpshooter, standard 30ft a turn is enough to keep out of most conflicts. Hang in the back behind a tree or half wall and just snipe people while the more tanky characters hold the line.

[WickerNipple]

I'd go with Sharpshooter

Agreed. You don't need the extra mobility at lvl 1.

[Ramshack]

Alert is awesome, the initiative and not getting surprised, great bonuses. Help get the assassination perk off all the time.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Alert is awesome, the initiative and not getting surprised, great bonuses. Help get the assassination perk off all the time.


Yes! Good point. I was considering this one at level 4 since the 2d6 will be more significant. But I hadn't considered it for the defensive applications.

[MaxWilson]

Yes! Good point. I was considering this one at level 4 since the 2d6 will be more significant. But I hadn't considered it for the defensive applications.

It might be a mistake to consider 2d6 at level 4 more significant than 1d6 at level 1, since level 1 enemies tend to be weaker. It's not the number that matters, it's the capability for dropping an enemy.

[Easy_Lee]

At level 1, the bonus damage from sharpshooter is probably doubling your damage that round or more. Alert will only be useful at the start of a fight usually, while sharpshooter is always potentially useful. Since you're a rogue, you have an abundance of ways to get advantage on attacks, increasing the likelihood that sharpshooter lands. It also lets you stand farther back, decreasing the chance that you die.

For all of these reasons, I think sharpshooter is the stronger lvl1 feat. But both are good, and you'll probably want alert at 4. Rogues get extra boosts, and only rely heavily on DEX, so not like you can't afford to take plenty of feats.

[edge2054]

On the other hand sharpshooter lowers your chances to land sneak attacks and the bonus damage isn't doubled by assassin, if you choose to go that route.

Frankly I'd go with Skulker, especially as a human. Both mobility and sharpshooter suck on a rogue, in my not so humble opinion.

[Easy_Lee]

On the other hand sharpshooter lowers your chances to land sneak attacks and the bonus damage isn't doubled by assassin, if you choose to go that route.

Frankly I'd go with Skulker, especially as a human. Both mobility and sharpshooter suck on a rogue, in my not so humble opinion.

He's dual wielding, so a chance for bonus damage on his second attack is useful. It may very well add more damage than the attack would have done, in which case it's usually worth the risk. If he goes assassin and tries to one-round an unaware caster, SS is great.

[Spinward Bound]

Sharpshooter would let me make use of darts and daggers...

Keep in mind that sharpshooter only affects ranged weapons and daggers are still melee weapons even when thrown.

[Dark Tira]

Keep in mind that sharpshooter only affects ranged weapons and daggers are still melee weapons even when thrown.

Most GMs will probably allow it though.

Edit: read wrong part of the feat

[Spinward Bound]

Most GMs will probably allow it though.

Edit: read wrong part of the feat

Yeah, I don't think it would break anything if allowed.

[edge2054]

He's dual wielding, so a chance for bonus damage on his second attack is useful. It may very well add more damage than the attack would have done, in which case it's usually worth the risk. If he goes assassin and tries to one-round an unaware caster, SS is great.

Over a long curve Sharpshooter may give better damage than not using it, I haven't looked at the math and really don't care too. When you're actually sitting at the table and both your attacks miss two turns in a row that's not fun and I'd personally prefer consistent rather than spike damage.

Skulker negates disadvantage from dim light, it lets you hide when only lightly obscured, and best of all, it lets you remain hidden if your first attack misses.

Take this for example.

Player A has Skulker, Player B does not.

Both are hidden. Both throw a dart. Both miss. Player A gets to throw another dart and still has advantage. Player B gets to throw another dart without advantage, or spend a bonus action rehiding instead.

The only thing that's really nice about Sharpshooter for a rogue, in my opinion, is that it negates cover and extends range, neither of which really matters as you're already one of the most mobile classes in the game. You can reposition to do both of those. The feat is redundant aside from the -5/+10 thing, which really isn't that great for a rogue anyway in my opinion.

Mobility has the same problem, it's redundant.

Skulker gives the rogue, especially a human rogue, abilities it doesn't otherwise have. It basically gives the human rogue a superior version of Mask of the Wild plus some other advantages on top of it.

[iskoaya]

Keep in mind that sharpshooter only affects ranged weapons and daggers are still melee weapons even when thrown.

mind pointing me to the PHB page that says this? let me copy paste the "thrown" weapon category description for you.

Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you
can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the
weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability
modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you
would use for a melee attack with the w eapon. For
example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength,
but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your
Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the
finesse property.

if you want to argue "ranged weapon" vs "ranged attack" meh so be it, i would still allow thrown weapons to count for sharpshooter and archery. but that is what i love about 5e, so much is open to DM interpretation and not "10 commandments of TTRPG's"

[edge2054]

So does a build like this need the dual-wielder feat in order to throw two weapons every turn?

[Easy_Lee]

So does a build like this need the dual-wielder feat in order to throw two weapons every turn?

Dual-wielder doesn't enable dual wielding, it just lets you wield bigger weapons. Specifically, it grants +1 AC while dual wielding, lets you wield non-light weapons, and lets you draw / stow two one-handed weapons when you could normally do one. Thus, some conclusions:

You can't wield a spear in one hand and a net in the other, gladiator style, without dual wielder
You can't hold a dart in your offhand without dual-wielder, since darts strangely aren't light. Most DMs would probably allow it anyway.
Since there are light finesse 1d6 weapons and the light, finesse, throwable dagger at 1d4, and since the strongest 1h weapons are 1d8 or 1d6 for thrown, the maximum damage you ever gain from dual wielder is 1/attack
If your DM lets you dual wield lances, you can break the above rule and gain 3/attack
If you take dual-wielder and are a dex-based melee character, the only optimal weapon you can ever use is rapiers, since there are no 1h 1d8 finesse slashing or bludgeoning weapons (ripe for homebrew)
As per RAW, you have to draw or stow two weapons at the same time in order to benefit from the draw/stow rule. It says "when" you could normally draw or stow one, you can do two. That implies you couldn't stow a weapon and draw another in one move, for instance. You can only draw two or put away two at once. Most DMs probably wouldn't mind, though.

It's noteworthy that duelist grants additional damage of 2/attack while also enabling use of a shield, the dual wielder fighting style (which grants attribute damage on offhand attacks) is superior to this feat, and the crossbow expert feat grants comparable damage to a dual-wielding character from 6 to 24 times the range.

The basic gist is this is not a good feat unless you use it with lances. If your DM allows that, cool, get a mount on your fighter as soon as you can or roll up a strong-arm halfling and play a ranger beastmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376418-Breaking-BM). Otherwise, I'd say there are better feat options.

As many have pointed out, just focusing damage isn't really an optimal character build anyway.

[edge2054]

I meant, do you need dual-wielder to throw two weapons every turn?




As per RAW, you have to draw or stow two weapons at the same time in order to benefit from the draw/stow rule. It says "when" you could normally draw or stow one, you can do two. {snip}




As an example...

The rogue starts combat off with a dagger in each hand. On his first turn he spends his action to Attack and throws the main hand dagger. He spends his bonus action to throw the other dagger. As part of his turn he readies another dagger. He ends his turn with one dagger in his main hand.

At the start of his second turn he draws another dagger as part of his turn. He spends his Attack action throwing the main hand dagger and a bonus action throwing the offhand dagger. He ends turn two empty handed.

On turn three, as part of his Attack action he readies a dagger. He throws this dagger and is again empty handed. If he's a thief he can spend his bonus action to Use an Object but he's still only throwing one dagger this turn. The thief ends turn three with one dagger in his main hand. Other rogues end turn three still empty handed.

From here on the turns alternate, with the thief throwing two daggers on even turns and one dagger on odd turns. Other rogues are stuck at one attack per turn if they want to continue throwing.

At least, that's my reading, hence my question.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, there are niche situations like that where it can be beneficial. If you want to be a dagger-throwing rogue, and you have to draw the daggers to throw them, then dual wielder makes sense. I feel like drawing and throwing daggers could be seen as similar to drawing arrows, which doesn't require an action. I'd talk to your DM.