Church Hat Bonus Collection - how do I stop it?

[Galen]

Ok, now that I got your attention with a catchy title, let me explain what Church Hat Bonus Collection (CHBC) is. Preface: I am a DM for a 14th level party. As you can guess, they have a lot of abilities, both static and situational. A typical example of play follows:

They are fighting a bunch of Giants. It is the PC's turn. The Ranger (Player A) is in the middle of resolving what seems to be an endless attack routine (rapid shot plus animal companion). It's his fourth and final iterative. All previous shots hit comfortably, because Giants don't have the best of ACs. The fourth iterative however has an actual chance of missing. Player A rolls, and ... states a number, a tad too low to hit. Oh my god, I think to myself, this is finally over.


DM: The arrow bounces off the Giant's tough hide. He then ...

At this point, all hell breaks loose. Players go around the table offering bonuses to the player who missed, in a way not dissimilar to passing a hat during collection at church.


Player B: did you account Heroes' Feast?
Player C: did you account Point Blank Shot?
Player D: did you account the Bard's song? (side note: this gets a bit funny when the Bard has to be reminded of that)
Player E: did you account for Favored Enemy*?

It all ends, predictably, with Player A stating a slightly higher number. If that doesn't hit, another round of bonus collection is sent around the table, until finally a hit is achieved or the players break down, unable to come up with more bonuses. If that does hit, it turns out that some of the bonuses he forgot were also adding to damage, and now we have to recalculate the damage from all previous attacks.

This bonus collection repeats several times per encounter, in fact often more than once per round. It is not specific to a particular player. During the monsters turn, the same happens with AC and saves.


DM: the giant was pierced by many arrows, but there's still a lot of fight in him. He swings his club in an overhead arc in an attempt to crush you ... does AC 30 hit?
Player A: yeah, I think so
Player B: did you account Protection Devotion?
Player C: did you account <something else>?

And so on. Another interesting variation on CHBC occurs when a player forgets to level up his character sheet between sessions, and of course the best time to level up is mid-combat when an attack misses by 1.

I feel I'm not in grammar school, and should not be held back by grammar school issues. This chore of supervising a bunch of adults as they add up numbers is a huge put-off for me. How do I get them to just state a number for attack (and damage, and AC) and stick to it?

* Favored Enemy actually only adds to damage, but that doesn't stop it from being added to the hat.

[Blackhawk748]

Simple, get note cards and have people write the buffs on them, one buff one card. Next have an "Active" pile for each character. Lastly, simply add up all the appropriate numbers, boom, nice static bonus.

[lytokk]

A way to speed it up would be for everyone to have notecards, with the total bonuses written down on it.

Maybe if the group uses the same buffs every time, have cards with the buff written on it, and what it does. Example, a bard uses his inspire courage song. He then hands cards to everyone in the group with the bonus written on it. Since it lasts for as long as he performs + 5 rounds, once he stops performing, The extra card with the bonus is laid on the table with a six sider on it, on the number 5. Every round on the bards turn, he turns it down one number. Once either the encounter is over or the die reaches 0, every gives the card back to the bard. Make this a player responsibility to make the cards.

**Edit, swordsaged**

[Galen]

Nobody's going to write any cards, unfortunately. Once more, we're talking about players who forget to level up between sessions.

[torrasque666]

Nobody's going to write any cards, unfortunately. Once more, we're talking about players who forget to level up between sessions.

Tell them to do it, or the bonuses won't count? IE: No Card, No Bonus?

Otherwise what's to prevent them from bluffing you and saying that he has more buffs than he really does?

[Troacctid]

Welcome to 3.5, land of finicky incremental bonuses. This is why they invented 5th edition.

I'd start by speeding up the physical process of rolling, if possible. I've had players who spend a good ten seconds shaking the dice before every roll. That sort of nonsense must be stopped. And roll multiple attacks simultaneously if you can, and/or have players pre-roll before their initiative comes up (easy to do if you use digital dice-rollers).

Other than that, better bookkeeping can help. On my character sheets, I try to account for situational bonuses in the relevant section by putting them in parentheses and keeping them separate, so that my to-hit ends up looking like "4+4+2+1(+1)(+1)=11(+)".

[Red Fel]

Tell them to do it, or the bonuses won't count? IE: No Card, No Bonus?

This. It's harsh, but fair.

Tell the players that, from now on, they have to keep track of their bonuses. Full stop. You will not slow down or stop combat to accommodate their inability to keep track. Yeah, it's a lot of bookkeeping. But with the right incentive, they'll learn. This is the right incentive.

When a player rolls his dice and gives a number, you can ask him, once, "Did you account for everything?" Nobody else should be talking - you didn't ask them, you asked him. It is each player's job to account for his own bonuses; it's not the role of the party accountant. Or, for that matter, the entire party. Once he says yes, that number is set in stone. Even if it sucks. Even if it fails to account for some substantial bonuses.

When you play the game of buffs, you keep track or you die.

[Fax Celestis]

When you play the game of buffs, you keep track or you die.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-30203-Jaime-Lannister-NICE-gif-Imgur-dW3Y.gif

[DrDeth]

I love the title.

OK to be fair, let's say :

You get one reminder, after that no more.

UNLESS a failed save leads to death, etc. Then everyone gets to spend a few minutes making sure.

I mean, missing a hit by one? Big deal. You'll get 'em next round.

But dying (or getting Dominated, petrified, etc) is really bad.

[Glimbur]

If resources permit, you might also use a blackboard or dry erase board to track modifiers, i.e. have columns on it for To-Hit, Damage, and so on with the final +whatever large at the bottom and the modifiers smaller above it. Each session can start with adding modifiers, and then tracking them will be a little annoying but it should pay off.

I also like being more firm with them, but that has been well endorsed already.

[Esprit15]

As a player, I keep a little box next to things like AC of bonuses that are not always in effect (dodge, pearl of black doubt, etc) with the corresponding bonus, and different boxes for attacks under similar situational bonuses (am I in a shadow hand stance, am I in point blank range?). As the game goes on, those that are not used get erased for ones that are. It's agravating to watch some of the other players add their bonuses together for every attack (okay, my strength is...) and so I make an effort to not be that guy.

If they want to make use of a dozen buffs, they need to keep track of a dozen buffs. If they can't, well, that's the game they tried to play, and they failed.

[EisenKreutzer]

I have a similiar problem with my lvl 10 Warblade/Bloodclaw Master crit-fisher. I have so many iterative bonuses, floating bonuses and buffs at any one time that it can take me minutes to announce my action, roll the correct amount of attacks and damage dice, and calculate the to-hit bonuses and damage totals.

I finally solved it by having a separate sheet of paper in front of me where I calculate and continually update all my attack bonuses, critical confirmation bonuses and damage bonuses, checkng to see if they are up to date every time a new ability is used or a new buff is cast.

It's a little bit of extra book keeping for me, but I save me and my group lots of time, and my GM lots of hair-pulling, dentist bills and hair color expenses from all the grey hairs and gnashing teeth.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Red Fel
When you play the game of buffs, you keep track or you die.

I would like to thank you for the best and only laugh of my day.


Originally Posted by Galen
Nobody's going to write any cards, unfortunately. Once more, we're talking about players who forget to level up between sessions.

You know your players far better than we do, and this sounds like it may be insoluble.

From what you've said, I have the sense that trying to enforce the notecard accounting may provoke a riot of complaints. That approach may end up causing far more grief than it's worth.


Originally Posted by Glimbur
If resources permit, you might also use a blackboard or dry erase board to track modifiers, i.e. have columns on it for To-Hit, Damage, and so on with the final +whatever large at the bottom and the modifiers smaller above it.

This is a really good idea, and depending on your players, you might assign or "volunteer" one of them to be the official Mod Squad, the way some groups have dedicated mappers and note-takers. You shouldn't be doing this bookkeeping yourself.

.

[nedz]

Welcome to high level play.

Presumably this is an issue for the DM too ? One you have solved no doubt.

Personally I have a sheet of paper I write it all down on, I still occasionally forget things though.

As for the levelling up mid-combat: don't allow it. They will soon remember to do this.

[sideswipe]

easy, player makes the role, if he states a number and it misses, and then combat progresses and he remembers during the next players turn, oops you forgot. oh well.

as a player and a DM i support this rule as long as the players have been playing for a couple of sessions.

so i roll a 10 and have a +10 attack bonus, i remember the bards +1 but not the clerics +1 from his buff.
so i call 21, the attack misses.

its (insert name here) turn and mid swing i remember that i missed the +1 and its ac was 22, then oops i failed because i did not add the numbers at the time.

i don't mind so much the calling out of bonus's to remember, but once it has been resolved it has been resolved. end of.

[KillianHawkeye]

Another interesting variation on CHBC occurs when a player forgets to level up his character sheet between sessions, and of course the best time to level up is mid-combat when an attack misses by 1.

This one in particular I would say you should just shut down. Leveling up your character just shouldn't happen mid combat. Aint' nobody got time for that! If they forgot to do it, they can do it once they're not in the middle of a round-by-round action scene. Make them play with the sheet as it is so they don't hold up the whole game. If you make them pay the price for forgetting important stuff, maybe next time they'll remember.

You're the DM. You do have the ability to say "no" to things sometimes.

[Raven777]

- Nice -

Now there's coffee in my keyboard :smallsigh:

Sometimes I feel this would all be easier to track if there was an alternative system to translate per round, per minute and per hour durations into per encounter and per scene durations. That would at least alleviate the need to check if the buffs from two rooms ago are still active or not.

[Rogan]

Sounds a lot like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)

[Galen]

Sounds a lot like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)Yes, unfortunately is does. But what's good for a zany webcomic is not necessarily good for the type of game I'm trying to have.

[nedz]

Sounds a lot like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)

Or these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html).

[Lord of Shadows]

It may seem harsh, but a buff forgotten is a buff forgotten. The gods were not with you on that action. Such is the price of high level 3.x play. You should make a "Table Rule" or a "House Rule" that sets the parameters you are willing to accept, using the ideas given here. If they complain, just have them try it for a session and see how much faster (and smoother) things go. As far as the "critical failure" event, we use tokens that the DM hands out for heroic actions and such, and one thing they can do is save your ass from a bad roll. Of course, the number of tokens is very limited (most of the time we each have one).

When I am playing in a high level game like yours, I have to draw up a quick chart and list each buff, incl. source, type (remember the stacking rules), amount, and duration. The DM here uses something on his laptop that also accounts for each spell that is in effect. Maybe HeroForge? I am not sure.
.

[frost890]

Nobody's going to write any cards, unfortunately. Once more, we're talking about players who forget to level up between sessions.

At this I would have to say if you did not put the work in to your Char you do not get the upgrades this session. The only thing that takes any real amount of time is spell selection. If the wizard forgets to memorize his spells in the morning rush he does not have them for use. Same goes for the bonuses that they add up, and if they are forgetting to add up the bonuses are they also fogeting to end the effect when the time is up?

[Stella]

It may seem harsh, but a buff forgotten is a buff forgotten.
This is the answer. If they don't want to miss, they have to get it right the first time. Or combat will take many times as long as it should.

Here's a snip from a post I made in another thread which covers some things which can speed play and help with managing the CHBC going on in your game:


I use a battle mat and miniatures. Dice are rolled in a small box. I used the top of an old Champions box, it is the same size as a DND book and has fairly shallow sides. This prevented the dice from knocking around the minis and costing time to reset them and the possibility of not being able to reset them accurately.

I do insist on dice with easily readable faces. I don't care for the tie-dye die with the cutouts for numbers which are not colored in, or are colored in with the same color as one of the tie-die colors. Or the teeny tiny D6 which can't be read unless you lean over and squint. This speeds play as I don't need to ask what was rolled, I can just see it. And although the players I play with are all mature and cheating has never been an issue, if the other player can see the die rolls it helps to keep them engaged a bit even when it isn't their turn to act.

I also ask that the entire table uses the same conventions for dice. I'm not going to be forced to remember that player 1 uses red, yellow, and green for their iterative attacks, while player 2 wants to use green, yellow, and red. This again saves time.

I should not have to know their character backwards and forwards. I want the player to look at their To Hit roll and tell me "A 12, plus my BAB and STR bonus of 6, minus 3 for my standard Power Attack, and plus 2 for the Bard's song. I hit AC 17." The same applies to skill use. I want the player to add in their Elven bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks. If they don't, they are going to lose that bonus, because I can't have the work of remembering the racial and skill point modifiers of the entire table of players placed on me. Knowing their character is the players job, and if anything the reverse is where I've had issues both as a DM and as a player, when a player has to ask what kind of die to roll and what kind of modifiers to apply over and over again.

It's not unreasonable to ask players to detail exactly what they are doing. That is a part of playing the game, knowing the game terms, and knowing your own character enough to assist the DM in resolving your character's actions. But if a player consistently uses the same amount of Power Attack, for example, I'm happy to let them set it as a "default" once I'm familiar enough with their play habits.

"Die rolls only count in the box. And please roll in such a way that they don't bounce out and hit the minis" is not exactly a dictatorial exercise of power, after all.

Get them in the habit of telling you what they are going to do, then rolling it, then walking the dice values through to the final number, and they should come around in a session or two. But be firm about "no take backs!" If they say a die roll is a 15, it's a 15 even if they remember a forgotten bonus. If you aren't firm, they will have no incentive to ever improve, and your combats will always contain CHBC.

[P.F.]

If you aren't firm, they will have no incentive to ever improve, and your combats will always contain CHBC.

This is the most important bit, as I see it.

The real issue here is not accounting, but behavior modification. As the DM, you have the power and authority to enforce the rules of gameplay. You can explain to them that it's impeding their character advancement to have each combat take half the session. You can tell them how you have decided to keep track of bonuses, and remind them that they won't be able to keep going back and re-adding-up their totals.

Also, adding some structure at the beginning might help with the levelling-up process as well. I often start my sessions with something like "Okay, you're still in town, has everyone done all their shopping?" Inevitably, there are purchases to be made, equipment to be traded, party treasure to be exchanged, and bonuses form the back of the character sheets that need to be added in on the front. When players arrive late, they have to do the same upkeep phase before their character can arrive just in time to save the party from an ongoing combat disaster.

Whether you choose to go with an index card system, a whiteboard running tally, a "Final Answer?" failsafe, or the Nurse's Rule, if you explain what you're doing and why before the game starts and stick to your guns, the players will come around.

Also, it's probably a good idea to design the first encounter or two to accommodate any initial confusion and blundering. A monster that is easy to hit but hard to damage, or a villain with attacks that inconvenience the characters without badly injuring them, like trip or entangle effects, should give them a chance to get used to doing all the maths FIRST, and THEN finding out whether they hit/damage, without feeling like every roll is the difference between survival and a total party wipe.

Once they have had a lower-stakes adjustment period, they might better be able to accept the potentially disastrous consequences of sloppy bookkeeping.

[Elkad]

There are 10 million versions of character sheets that add up your stats.
But I've never seen a combat tracker.

Put in your base stats, and then you could use it to update for spells and such on the fly.
Preferably with a bunch of checkboxes.

Check the "Haste" box, and it would update your AC, Reflex, Move, etc..
Check the "Prone" box, and it would put up a note that melee attackers get a bonus vs you.


Even if it didn't have the preset bonuses. Blank line where you stick the name of the effect, a dropdown for all the types of effects (enhancement, insight, untyped, etc). And then a bunch of columns for various stats/ac/move etc.
And enough sense to not stack 2 enhancement bonuses, just take the better.

[Martimus Prime]

Specific to the issue of damage having to be recalculated after the rhetorical hat-passing, my table has a "no take backs" rule with regard to bonuses and such having been discovered after the fact, something like ending a stack of effects with split second in MtG. We establish a regular interval for this to occur, usually at the end of a round; if it's someone else's turn or the total actions in the turn are over, and suddenly someone realizes that things should have gone down differently, then we just run with what we had before unless it would break immersion somehow. It's resolved a lot of game-bogging issues in the past.

[BaronDoctor]

Attack:
Character sheets have 5 slots for "attack" on them. Rarely do you have five different attack modes. So I'd recommend taking a couple snapshots. One for single attack, one for full attack, and one of each in common buff states.
AC: Above the little boxes, put the adjustments from common buff states with explanations in parentheses?
Saves: there's a box for 'conditional modifiers' which could pretty easily take the common buffs.

You can do all of that in saves, or have them put together a laminated sheet with the effects of each common buff that they pass around or something.

If they can't be arsed to do that, no bonus. It's like taxes, if you don't claim your benefits you don't get them.