The Red Dragon

[loodwig]

I'm currently the GM of the most fun group I've ever been a part of (both as player or GM). The party started at lvl 5 and is not lvl 9, and they're taking on harder and harder things. I've helped them get some pretty awesome gear (they now have an average wealth of 140,000 GP a piece), so they're certainly not nerfed by any extreme. The party of four consists of:

A half-orc cleric
A halfling sorcerer with a cohort hound archon
A human fighter
A half-elf druid with a pet dire wolf

The group is very powerful as is, so I'm not going to give them much challenge with CR 11 opponents anymore. I don't think they're terribly ready to face off against the "Big Bads" I've made, but I think they're about ready for a campaign arc I've been planning for a while about doing battle with a Red Dragon.

The idea is that there would be a Red Dragon of some age (preferably not Ancient, because that really breaks story), possibly bolstered with PC ranks or additional hit dice if need be. The party would possibly meet up with an NPC level 16 paladin that planned on taking on this guy solo, but probably can't. And of course, to make it even more glorious and cliched, the battle takes place on a volcanic island... with the final confrontation being handled near lava flows and probably epic music.

Off the top of my head. I see this having the potential to break terribly in a number of ways. First off, the party could wipe the floor with the dragon if I don't make him tough enough / don't play him well enough. Second, I could make the dragon so unbelievably OP that he TPK's with his first breath attack. Neither I want, though I'm not above killing a party member or two. So I ask the great forum gods here again for advice:

* What minions should the dragon have, if any, and how tough should they be?
* With four level 9s (possibly 10s) and a level 16, what CR should I have for the Dragon?
* What special considerations should the Paladin have in terms of gear & skills (he should feel confident enough to take on a dragon by himself).
* If I need to bump the dragon, should I give it levels in Sorcerer, Fighter, or just extra Hit Dice?
* What special considerations should I make for fighting near lava? What happens if you step in it? Is environmental resistance a must?
* Should the players be allowed to control the NPC Paladin (meaning I give them the character sheet during the fight)?
* What kind of 'retreat' options should be permissible?
* Would a Red Dragon allow adventurers to full on retreat, mocking them as they ran, or would he run after them?
* Would a Red Dragon simply spend its days guarding his hoard and manipulating from afar, or would it terrorize the local populace too?
* What are typical motivations for a Red Dragon (For now, he's manipulated a few Dhampir to attempt to kill a Copper Dragon who has been trying in vain to hold back a torrent of evil elsewhere). Are they generally cunning and manipulative, or do they like to take things into their own hands?

[Tovec]

A half-orc cleric
A halfling sorcerer with a cohort hound archon
A human fighter
A half-elf druid with a pet dire wolf

The idea is that there would be a Red Dragon of some age (preferably not Ancient, because that really breaks story), possibly bolstered with PC ranks or additional hit dice if need be. The party would possibly meet up with an NPC level 16 paladin that planned on taking on this guy solo, but probably can't. And of course, to make it even more glorious and cliched, the battle takes place on a volcanic island... with the final confrontation being handled near lava flows and probably epic music.
Level 9s and 10s huh? At that level I would expect that any decent spellcaster (and look, you have three) could defeat the dragon with ice-related magic. The paladin at a higher level (I assume) is going to have a harder time with it because he doesn't deal cold damage and has to attack with a sword (how barbaric). What age for the dragon were you thinking though? Adult is CR 14, Mature adult is CR 15. By Pathfinder CR to level logic, that would be equal to a paladin of 16 - so maybe I was wrong on the "have a harder time" thing. Well, I'm not, ice magic is still a far easier time but I digress.


Off the top of my head. I see this having the potential to break terribly in a number of ways. First off, the party could wipe the floor with the dragon if I don't make him tough enough / don't play him well enough. Second, I could make the dragon so unbelievably OP that he TPK's with his first breath attack. Neither I want, though I'm not above killing a party member or two. So I ask the great forum gods here again for advice:
How tough do you want to make him? My suggestions to boosting his power/toughness have mostly to do with his tactics and reduction of weaknesses. For example, red dragons mean using ice, so get him some ability to resist or become immune to ice damage - automatic increase in power. Fairly easy to do in a number of ways too. Cloaks of resistances, or other items that boost saves and/or AC would be good help - you have three tanks and three casters so make it harder for them with magic items.

At that point, it becomes his game. They can't easily nerf him from afar, he has better power and a nice bag of tricks to go along with that. So, drop fireballs and fly, this avoids melee - bypassing half the party's main focus it seems. Don't get me wrong, it isn't all about nerfing and avoidance but a smart dragon does what he can to bake them from range before engaging in melee. Although I am assuming that the party has put on fire-resist spells, so staying out of range until those are depleted or expire are great tactics too. Dragons are smart, oh, they were prepared? I'll come back in an hour when those spells have expired and cook them with fire then.

Once he does land, if you want a real challenge, focus on one party member at a time, preferably the ones they don't want you focusing on - like casters and healers. He'll take more damage up front, but that is what fire and fear auras are for. Then once the cleric is in rough shape, focus on the fighter, wolf, and archon. Grappling and flying off to chew is a good technique - I recommend flyby attack and the grapple series of feats.

Now onto your specific questions (I added the numbers):


1.* What minions should the dragon have, if any, and how tough should they be?
2.* With four level 9s (possibly 10s) and a level 16, what CR should I have for the Dragon?
3.* What special considerations should the Paladin have in terms of gear & skills (he should feel confident enough to take on a dragon by himself).
4.* If I need to bump the dragon, should I give it levels in Sorcerer, Fighter, or just extra Hit Dice?
5.* What special considerations should I make for fighting near lava? What happens if you step in it? Is environmental resistance a must?
6.* Should the players be allowed to control the NPC Paladin (meaning I give them the character sheet during the fight)?
7.* What kind of 'retreat' options should be permissible?
8.* Would a Red Dragon allow adventurers to full on retreat, mocking them as they ran, or would he run after them?
9.* Would a Red Dragon simply spend its days guarding his hoard and manipulating from afar, or would it terrorize the local populace too?
10.* What are typical motivations for a Red Dragon (For now, he's manipulated a few Dhampir to attempt to kill a Copper Dragon who has been trying in vain to hold back a torrent of evil elsewhere). Are they generally cunning and manipulative, or do they like to take things into their own hands?

1. Really, this is up to you. Dragons are strong enough to collect or press-gang basically anything into his service. Things that are resistant to fire are a good place to start if just randomly looking. I would also avoid mindless - ranged attacks can be an asset. Archers hidden at long range who back up the dragon's play?
2. You said you didn't want an ancient dragon. At first that (to me) meant mature and adult, not sure why. I think this is hard to judge, with the power you are putting against them I would probably suggest going higher rather than lower but it really depends on HOW you play him rather than what level he is. (Very Old is CR 18, that would certainly be a challenge for a level 16 paladin to do solo.)
3. Already covered above. I think gear is the significant factor. Cold immunity is a necessity, and it will certainly throw the party that is expecting to take him down with those spells. ERR, oh, the paladin.. my bad. Cold weapon/spells :P Ways to resist fire - maybe ring of evasion? Probably some way to fly. Paladins are immune to the fear effect right?
4. I wouldn't give the dragon levels in sorcerer because at this point their natural spell-like are better in every way. This is something I didn't cover already. Use the spells. The dragon should see them coming, so find cover to surprise them, cast haste on dragon (and any other buffs) and drop into the fight. Even playing around with the fire can have great effect to warm them up before the real fight. Taunts, that kind of thing. Sorry - levels: melee classes are a good one, if this was 3.5 I would recommend paladin of slaughter (hehe) but I think starting at level 1 caster class isn't a great choice. It might work if you make it a younger dragon and then give him far more levels in the casting class so he can start getting good. Or perhaps there is some option out there to add his dragon level to sorcerer levels, in that case DO THAT. Fighter can work, go for feats, ranger has some interesting stuff, barbarian - add rage :P when fighting?
5. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Lava-Effects
6. Might not be a bad idea. Either let a specific character run him, they each give input, maybe even democracy rules? Yeah, I like that since you won't be metagaming when you have the dragon swoop in.
7. For the party? Relatively narrow exist passages. I don't know the terrain of where this fight will take place but most of the time a dragon is too big to use conventional medium sized hallways or corridors. Add in an area that even THEY must squeeze and they can pretty easily get away. For the dragon - large opening to the sky, flies off whenever it likes. Difficult to follow and even if they do, they're in the air with HIM (mwhahahahaha).
8. Depends I suppose. I always like these kinds of considerations to be made at the time. Did they hurt/mock him really badly before he came back and forced a retreat? Then maybe he chases them until dies or they do. If they come in and find out their ice spells didn't work and then run away, maybe he let's them be and mocks them as they go. At that point he can get some (more) flunkies to help him in a final confrontation. Maybe even change the map/tunnels/dungeon - add in traps, move walls and doors. I don't know the disposition of the dragon in question, and I suspect that might be of bigger importance for answering this question.
9. Dragons might spend YEARS sleeping on their hoard, or underneath it. Or wake up and decide to terrorize a town/kingdom for more gold. Or have secret meetings with underlings to do random evil plot. Yep. If you are wondering what he is doing on the first time they come (and you want to make it challenging)? Then he is awake, heard them coming with his excellent hearing, flew off to plot and buff, and then jumps into range. Maybe threatening them (fear aura) and demanding tribute for them to be allowed to run away - or he eats them. This can be an excuse for them running "oh ****, this is going south, we should drop our coinpurses and run."
10. I find red dragons are less often the plotters and schemers (at least via the stats and write up given in the book). With that said, it wouldn't be above them to plot and scheme, they just tend to be more hands on than hands off. So, in the defeat of the copper dragon the red dragon probably wanted to be on hand to deliver the final blow. I kind of see reds as the fighter of evil dragons. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just me. So, I don't think they're above having people to soften the party up, but I suspect that during the main show (the final fight) they are the center of attention - why I recommended archers. So, mostly the "own hands" thing, but with a dash of cunning and manipulative.

Hope this helps. Disregard whatever you think is silly or over the top.

[loodwig]

All very excellent, thanks.


Level 9s and 10s huh? At that level I would expect that any decent spellcaster (and look, you have three) could defeat the dragon with ice-related magic. The paladin at a higher level (I assume) is going to have a harder time with it because he doesn't deal cold damage and has to attack with a sword (how barbaric). What age for the dragon were you thinking though? Adult is CR 14, Mature adult is CR 15. By Pathfinder CR to level logic, that would be equal to a paladin of 16 - so maybe I was wrong on the "have a harder time" thing. Well, I'm not, ice magic is still a far easier time but I digress.

Well, the party is all level 9. They might be 10 by the time they get there. I wanted enough of a gulf so that the paladin would sneer at the idea of needing a help from a few freshman adventurers when he's on his divine mission to slay this dragon.

While I'm trying not to beat the trope to death, of course the Paladin is no match for the dragon, and he's probably dumb enough to fight bravely to the end.




At that point, it becomes his game. They can't easily nerf him from afar, he has better power and a nice bag of tricks to go along with that. So, drop fireballs and fly, this avoids melee - bypassing half the party's main focus it seems. Don't get me wrong, it isn't all about nerfing and avoidance but a smart dragon does what he can to bake them from range before engaging in melee. Although I am assuming that the party has put on fire-resist spells, so staying out of range until those are depleted or expire are great tactics too. Dragons are smart, oh, they were prepared? I'll come back in an hour when those spells have expired and cook them with fire then.


I like this, except that the party is clever enough to say, "Oh good, let's loot quickly, leave the paladin alone to die if he needs to, and get the hell out of here!" But of course, this all will play out as it plays out.



1. Really, this is up to you. Dragons are strong enough to collect or press-gang basically anything into his service. Things that are resistant to fire are a good place to start if just randomly looking. I would also avoid mindless - ranged attacks can be an asset. Archers hidden at long range who back up the dragon's play?

Half a dozen lizardfolk fighter archers perhaps? Or more Dhampir (since I've used them once already)?



2. You said you didn't want an ancient dragon. At first that (to me) meant mature and adult, not sure why. I think this is hard to judge, with the power you are putting against them I would probably suggest going higher rather than lower but it really depends on HOW you play him rather than what level he is. (Very Old is CR 18, that would certainly be a challenge for a level 16 paladin to do solo.)

I'd like to keep it under 500 years old, if possible, just for the sake of narrative.



6. Might not be a bad idea. Either let a specific character run him, they each give input, maybe even democracy rules? Yeah, I like that since you won't be metagaming when you have the dragon swoop in.

I'll run the Pally's dialog out of combat, but that way the party can use him... even sacrifice him if need be.


8. Depends I suppose. I always like these kinds of considerations to be made at the time. Did they hurt/mock him really badly before he came back and forced a retreat? Then maybe he chases them until dies or they do. If they come in and find out their ice spells didn't work and then run away, maybe he let's them be and mocks them as they go. At that point he can get some (more) flunkies to help him in a final confrontation. Maybe even change the map/tunnels/dungeon - add in traps, move walls and doors. I don't know the disposition of the dragon in question, and I suspect that might be of bigger importance for answering this question.
9. Dragons might spend YEARS sleeping on their hoard, or underneath it. Or wake up and decide to terrorize a town/kingdom for more gold. Or have secret meetings with underlings to do random evil plot. Yep. If you are wondering what he is doing on the first time they come (and you want to make it challenging)? Then he is awake, heard them coming with his excellent hearing, flew off to plot and buff, and then jumps into range. Maybe threatening them (fear aura) and demanding tribute for them to be allowed to run away - or he eats them. This can be an excuse for them running "oh ****, this is going south, we should drop our coinpurses and run."
10. I find red dragons are less often the plotters and schemers (at least via the stats and write up given in the book). With that said, it wouldn't be above them to plot and scheme, they just tend to be more hands on than hands off. So, in the defeat of the copper dragon the red dragon probably wanted to be on hand to deliver the final blow. I kind of see reds as the fighter of evil dragons. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just me. So, I don't think they're above having people to soften the party up, but I suspect that during the main show (the final fight) they are the center of attention - why I recommended archers. So, mostly the "own hands" thing, but with a dash of cunning and manipulative.

I'd say the Red Dragon's basic MO could be summarised (ha!) as follows:
Roughly 1500 years ago, the tiefling inhabitants of the island nation (in terms of land area we're talking New Zealand, not Asia) were more or less destroyed by a spell cast that went awry. Much of the natural flora, fauna, and bestiary survived, and it was ruled over peaceably by a black dragon that is the ethical equivalent of some bizarre offspring of PETA, Greenpeace, Lilith, Cruella DeVille, and Sauron. Living beneath it all was a Copper dragon who lived a solitary life enjoying big game hunting and otherwise keeping to himself and away from the workings of his evil older counterpart. Of course, this wouldn't last (I mean, what kind of story would that be), elves and humans found the island again, settled upon it, started casting spells, exploiting the resources, making babies, and doing whatever. This brought with it the Red Dragon, who was also looking for some place to rest, hoard, feed, and carry on. The black dragon knew it couldn't face inevitability head on, and has thus retreated into obscurity for the most part. By comparison, the Red Dragon thought it would be great fun to become the legendary terror of the land, found the copper dragon, got his ass kicked and humiliated besdies (it's a copper dragon, after all), and went back to lick his wounds. Revenge comes with sending evil things to harass, distract, or weaken his copper nemesis (to strike a decisive blow when the time is right), and this has drawn the reprisal of our friend, the Paladin. Of course, the Black Dragon is also playing a trump card here, and seeks to return the island to an uninhabited state, even if that means getting rid of the flora and fauna in the process.

All that said, yeah, I think the Red Dragon would see them coming, wouldn't be too happy about it, but also wouldn't be threatened by some human and is adequately prepared already. The Red Dragon, of course, knows nothing about the 4 players, and may not know anything about the Black Dragon and her schemes either. Defeating the Red Dragon would also signify that the party isn't a local band of adventurers out for some mild glory, but truly the last best hope for peace.



Hope this helps. Disregard whatever you think is silly or over the top.

No, thank you. This is all very useful.