Education and the Upper Crust

[Palanan]

There are several versions of the Education feat, which gives all Knowledges as class skills and a small bonus to any two of them. This seems to be mainly taken together with Knowledge Devotion, as a boost for Knowledge checks.

But an education can also grant access to the elites in society, and help to impress them favorably when you mingle. This goes beyond simple Knowledge checks to greatly improve your social standing overall--although primarily with others in the educated elite.

What could be added to the feat to reflect this?

[madtinker]

If I were the DM I would allow a successful knowledge check to give a circumstance bonus to diplomacy. If you fluffed the feat as attending some private school, you would get a larger bonus on interactions with people from that school.

[Averis Vol]

There are several versions of the Education feat, which gives all Knowledges as class skills and a small bonus to any two of them. This seems to be mainly taken together with Knowledge Devotion, as a boost for Knowledge checks.

But an education can also grant access to the elites in society, and help to impress them favorably when you mingle. This goes beyond simple Knowledge checks to greatly improve your social standing overall--although primarily with others in the educated elite.

What could be added to the feat to reflect this?

Maybe a bonus to diplomacy checks to show your eloquence and sophistication? possibly an invitation to a group of scholars whom for a small fee each month, you can gain access to a collaboration of knowledge and auto pass one knowledge check a month?

I dunno, just kinda what was on the top of my head.

[Rebel7284]

It depends on who you are diplomancing. Pretty sure there are many individuals in a medieval world who would not care.

[ThisIsZen]

Add the same small bonus you get to the specific two knowledges to any Diplomacy roll you make with someone who also shares either knowledge as a class skill?

[nedz]

There are several versions of the Education feat, which gives all Knowledges as class skills and a small bonus to any two of them. This seems to be mainly taken together with Knowledge Devotion, as a boost for Knowledge checks.

But an education can also grant access to the elites in society, and help to impress them favorably when you mingle. This goes beyond simple Knowledge checks to greatly improve your social standing overall--although primarily with others in the educated elite.

What could be added to the feat to reflect this?

It's a feat which is used in a variety of builds because it opens doors — as it should :smallamused:
Education is already a powerful feat, I don't think it needs improving.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wouldn't it be some other check to learn some nugget of information that would be helpful? Say, that the Lord Underpants is particularly racist towards elves or something? That way, you won't try to convince him to help with a treaty with Elfywoods.

[Red Fel]

I wouldn't add to the feat itself. Rather, I'd let your ranks in the relevant knowledge skills offer you a small circumstance/synergy bonus to the appropriate diplomacy roll. In the case of rubbing crusts with the upper elbow, I'd probably give you a small bonus based on your ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty). Alternatively, roll well on an extraneous Knowledge roll (for example, Knowledge (religion) reveals that Archduke Suchensuch is wearing the holy symbol of Pelor) and you can use that bit of trivia as a conversational hook; I might grant you a circumstance bonus for that.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It's a feat which is used in a variety of builds because it opens doors — as it should :smallamused:
Education is already a powerful feat, I don't think it needs improving.

I agree. Nothing wrong with making Knowledge matter in some social situations though. Make sur to keep it balanced though and not have it threaten to outdo actual Diplomacy skill. Also, remember that Knowledge knobility already grants a synergy bonus that presumably represents certain cultured manner that we associate with a liberal education.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are several versions of the Education feat, which gives all Knowledges as class skills and a small bonus to any two of them. This seems to be mainly taken together with Knowledge Devotion, as a boost for Knowledge checks.

But an education can also grant access to the elites in society, and help to impress them favorably when you mingle. This goes beyond simple Knowledge checks to greatly improve your social standing overall--although primarily with others in the educated elite.

What could be added to the feat to reflect this?

I much agree with Red Fel; the feat has some very good crunch, and what would help most to reflect what you want is some role play fluff with minor benefits if the player has their character use their Knowledge in creative ways (ways not necessarily implied by the skills themselves). Circumstance bonuses are a great way to do this, and Diplomacy is one of the easier skills to reflect this with. Character is looking to impress Mrs. NPC, dredges through their resources, and remembers a nugget of social lore or picks up on some clue in the present setting, with a decent roll on the relevant Knowledge skill (or even just a memory check; if I'm feeling nice or it's a low-Knowledge/Int character, I sometimes just use Spot or Sense Motive instead). The degree of success adds to the circumstance bonus and gives the character an angle in the conversation.

I've been playing Exalted for the past year+, and one thing that that system's very elaborate social combat system has taught me is that social situations are even more fruitful than I expected, even if I have to goad/use a system that goads players into participating (Exalted's complicated mechanic pretty much forces some degree of engagement, or else merely talking to someone could result in a degree of mind control/subversion/penalty to such and such).

So, while the rolling should work for the player and help establish the awesome, make sure to have fluff/crunch on hand to allow even more awesome to be generated when players have their characters go beyond what D&D's rather skimpy social interaction system.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by nedz
It's a feat which is used in a variety of builds because it opens doors….

How else is it used? I've mainly seen it together with Knowledge Devotion, wouldn't mind seeing some other approaches.


Originally Posted by Red Fel
…I'd probably give you a small bonus based on your ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty).

That's one option; but not everyone will put ranks in that particular Knowledge, and it almost feels like this penalizes those who don't.

Put differently, I feel there should be some social benefit which applies to any character who takes the feat, independent of which Knowledge skills they select.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Circumstance bonuses are a great way to do this, and Diplomacy is one of the easier skills to reflect this with…. The degree of success adds to the circumstance bonus and gives the character an angle in the conversation.

This is certainly one good approach, and player creativity is always something I like to encourage.

But are there other ways to reflect this? I'd like to include language somehow, but as you point out the 3.5 social rules are fairly glossy, and I always feel constrained rather than enabled.


Originally Posted by Rebel7284
It depends on who you are diplomancing. Pretty sure there are many individuals in a medieval world who would not care.

Exactly. An educated manner carries a certain cachet in certain circles--but it can also outright antagonize the uneducated, especially if you're speaking posh in a working-class bar.
.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, perhaps consider a new use of Knowledge or Diplomacy, or maybe some combination of the two. This way we avoid making the feat too good (or too necessary...always a problem for non-spellcasters who need feats to help keep them relevant longer).

So, maybe "Impressive Knowledge" as a use of Diplomacy, in which someone with X in Knowledge can impress someone else trained in that Knowledge skill. Probably should have a risk of failure, though, since being too intelligent for a social setting is just as bad as not being intelligent enough.

Or, contrariwise, maybe it's a use of a Knowledge skill that has a Diplomacy-like effect on others trained in the use of that skill. That would be nice, as it avoids the Cha-dependency of the above suggestion (since at least some of those smart people will have dumped Charisma). Also saves skill ranks. Beware making it as potent an effect as Diplomacy, though, since that is broken enough as is, and you don't want to add that kind of schtick to skills that already have an established use.

So, maybe "for every 15 of your Knowledge(X) check, you can improve the attitude of someone else trained in that skill by one step." I just made that up; you'd have to look at the Diplomacy numbers (which are insane, so keep that in mind) to balance it properly.

[Jeff the Green]

How else is it used? I've mainly seen it together with Knowledge Devotion, wouldn't mind seeing some other approaches.

They're niche, but they're there. Any non-human Archivist/PrC that doesn't have all the appropriate ones and a Sorcerer trying to get into a number of arcane PrCs, off the top of my head. And in certain campaigns Knowledge skills are more useful than in others; in a character I'm building to replace one who went insane, I grabbed Jack of all Trades to cover the less important ones; in a build that didn't prioritize Intelligence or had more skill points not devoted to prerequisites, Education would have been more appropriate.

[nedz]

How else is it used? I've mainly seen it together with Knowledge Devotion, wouldn't mind seeing some other approaches.

One build, off the top of my head:

Human Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Beguiler ++
Educated(B), Arcane Disciple(1), Skill Focus(Knowledge Religion)(3), Arcane Disciple (6)

I've also seen it used quite a bit in Iron Chef

Basically it adds about a dozen skills as class skills, which is quite good value — especially if you need Knowledge skills to qualify for some other feat or PrC, which is quite common.

[Urpriest]

In general, Diplomacy has no rules for whether or not the target is predisposed to like you, beyond the broad classes of initial attitude. Why should Education have more impact when interacting with nobles than weapon proficiency in a warrior culture, or being a human among followers of Zarus?

[Red Fel]

That's one option; but not everyone will put ranks in that particular Knowledge, and it almost feels like this penalizes those who don't.

Put differently, I feel there should be some social benefit which applies to any character who takes the feat, independent of which Knowledge skills they select.

And this, I think, is the key to your position. These two points.

First: That taking a feat that gives all Knowledge skills as class skills, and +1 to two of them, penalizes those who don't take a particularly unpopular Knowledge skill, because it means they don't get an additional benefit that's not mentioned in the feat. I have an issue with calling a benefit a penalty simply because it's not enough of a benefit, but that's not terribly relevant.
Second: That there should be a social benefit that applies to anybody who takes the feat. I remind you that the feat, by RAW, in no way influences your social attribute (Cha, generally) nor any skill related to social interaction. (Unless you're at a trivia contest, your knowledge generally shouldn't be your primary means of social interaction.)

These establish a fundamental position: That you feel that the feat doesn't do enough. But that's how the feat is written. You gain Knowledge skills as class skills and a bonus on two of them. The solution, therefore, is homebrew. If you want to add more, it's a house rule, and that's entirely your DM's prerogative (or yours, if you're the DM). If you want to make it so that any Knowledge can increase your influence among the rich and powerful - people who, in a fantasy setting, may nonetheless be illiterate and ignorant - that's DM's prerogative again.

I would like to point out, however, that if you really want to turn a Knowledge check into a Diplomacy check, there's the Exemplar (Complete Adventurer) for that. Skill Artistry gives you a +4 bonus to a skill in which you have 13+ ranks; Persuasive Performance lets you substitute that skill for a Diplomacy check. So, yes, you can use your Knowledge (architecture) check to really wow them at the Orc Warchief's war counsel tent.

[Gemini476]

I'm pretty sure that Knowledge(nobility) is one of the ones that give a synergy bonus to Diplomacy, so this is already covered. Partly.

Beyond that, it gives you the ability to answer questions relevant to the skill in question. The Knowledge skill lists those DCs, IIRC. That'll probably be pretty useful.