Sorcerer Help

[Titan]

I'm joining a 4e campaign in a few weeks, I haven't played 4e in a few years, because i bounced around systems, I started with 4e so I'm not entirely new to it.

I plan to join in as a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer. Stats have not been rolled (4d6 Drop lowest, re-roll 1's & 2's). Starting at level 1. I have a few questions though.

I know that the Dragonborn makes a fantastic sorcerer, but what would be some of the benefits of choosing to play as a human instead? (I like to find out what a Human can offer as opposed to a fantastical race)

Beyond a few general feats Armor Proficiency (Leather), Implement Feats. I'm not sure what to specialize in.

I know that due to errata, that Weapon Focus works with implements now, and that Dual Implements can be more effective than just a single strong one.
But I'm not seeing anything beyond what a normal caster would take. Am I missing something?

What would be the earliest I could gain the ability to fly, reliably?

If I specialized in a damage type (Lightning and Thunder) how would that affect me later? I know that a certain Paragon Path can allow me to ignore immunity to an extent, couple that with Dragon Soul and I won't have much of a struggle hitting with my chosen type.

As for equipment, what should i be looking for as I level?

Would it be worth it to get proficiency in another classes implements (Swordmage for all blades) by using a feat for Weapon Specialization and Advanced Implement Training?

[NecroRebel]

Dragonborn make good sorcerers because of their stat array. They also have a decent selection of racial feats for sorcerers.

However, they also make fantastic sorcerers because of the "rebreather" build family. These builds use the racial feat Ancient Power to turn their Dragon Breath racial power into a sorcerer power, making it much higher-damage, as well as to make it recharge itself when the dragonborn takes damage of the same type as the Dragon Breath. They then take the Nusemnee's Atonement feat, which allows them to redirect damage they deal to their allies to themselves. In battle, they intentionally catch allies in their Dragon Breath, redirect the damage to themselves,, which recharges their Dragon Breath, and then use Dragon Breath again, potentially using that power 3+ times per round for enormous AoE damage. Other feats for a rebreather typically involve either boosting the damage of Dragon Breath, increasing its area of effect, or adding useful riders to it.

For a more general and less cheesy sorcerer, the feats War Wizard's Expertise and War Wizardry are excellent. Combined, you take a -10 penalty to attack your allies and deal half damage to them, practically letting you use ally-unfriendly AoE powers around them without fear.



Reliable flight tends to be fairly difficult to attain. The earliest way I know to get perpetual flight is as part of a paragon path. I'm fairly certain there's a sorcerer PP that gives perpetual flight as its L16 feature in Arcane Power, but I don't recall offhand what it is. There's also one sorcerer utility power, at-will, that allows you or an ally to fly a short distance, but it doesn't allow hovering and you have to end the move on the ground.



Specializing in a damage type is usually fine. Since you pierce resistances, it's less of an issue for you than other classes, and dual immunities are relatively uncommon, so if you specialize in two types you should be OK. Unfortunately, if there's any particular pair of damage types that is resisted, it's thunder and lightning, so that may not be the best choice. There is an item (as part of the Gifts for the Queen set) in AV2 that lets you swap lightning damage for radiant damage, though, so picking that up will let you much easily avoid resistances and immunities that you otherwise wouldn't. There's also an ED (Avatar of Storm) that lets you change any thunder or lightning power into a lightning/thunder power, but it's a pain to get into as it's a divine domain ED.



As for equipment, anything that boosts the area of your powers is good, as is general damage boosts. The Gifts for the Queen item set is great if you go lightning-heavy.



You generally won't find it worthwhile to poach another class's implements. Staffs and daggers are just fine for you.

[Titan]

So I'll ignore taking another classes implements.

I'm kinda hooked on using the Lightning/Thunder, and after taking a second look at Arcane Power the Storm Sorcerer is probably what I want, and the PP Storm Fury lets me ignore all resistance and reduce Immunity down to Resist=Level on anything. So I will switch to that. So I lose one of the nice things about the Strength to AC instead of Dex, but since I wasn't planning on using melee the Strength would have only been helpful in AC and Fort. Not to hung up on that.

I will be able to get the ability to fly few a while later so that's nice

I'll look at the Gifts of the Queen set.

I'll probably switch to Human instead of Halfling, mostly because the Saves, Skills, Feat I get for a human out way the benefit of Dex from Halfling including the feat to not provoke when doing a Closeburst.

Thank you for you help that really gave me a new perspective on the Sorcerer

[Laserlight]

I'm kinda hooked on using the Lightning/Thunder, and after taking a second look at Arcane Power the Storm Sorcerer is probably what I want

As I recall, the guides I read suggest that a dragonborn is intended to be more of a close-burst, in-your-face sorceror; halfling was one of the favored storm sorc races because of the dex, Second Chance and such.


the feat to not provoke when doing a Closeburst.

Any race can take Staff Expertise, and that means you don't provoke--although you may want Dual Implement instead.
Better yet, there's armor (for example, Shadowdance) which has the property that your ranged and area attacks don't provoke. No need to spend a feat on it if you can buy armor that does the same thing.

[Titan]

Any race can take Staff Expertise, and that means you don't provoke.

Not that feat. Nimble Spellcaster, Arcane Power. Halfling only, you don't provoke when using Area Powers. But thanks for letting me know of the enchant and staff feat.

[tcrudisi]

So I'll ignore taking another classes implements.

I'm kinda hooked on using the Lightning/Thunder, and after taking a second look at Arcane Power the Storm Sorcerer is probably what I want, and the PP Storm Fury lets me ignore all resistance and reduce Immunity down to Resist=Level on anything. So I will switch to that. So I lose one of the nice things about the Strength to AC instead of Dex, but since I wasn't planning on using melee the Strength would have only been helpful in AC and Fort. Not to hung up on that.

I will be able to get the ability to fly few a while later so that's nice

I'll look at the Gifts of the Queen set.

I'll probably switch to Human instead of Halfling, mostly because the Saves, Skills, Feat I get for a human out way the benefit of Dex from Halfling including the feat to not provoke when doing a Closeburst.

Thank you for you help that really gave me a new perspective on the Sorcerer

No one provokes an OA when doing a Close Burst. No one provokes an OA when doing /any/ Close attack. That's part of the rules for the Close keyword. If you are a Dex Sorc, you probably want to take Staff Expertise to avoid OAs anyway. If you are a Str Sorc, look into War Wizards Expertise instead since you won't be provoking OAs.

Lightning Fury is the best "Sorc" paragon path in the game. If you want the best paragon path for a Thunder-Sorc, you will need to MC into Bard and take the Voice of Thunder paragon path. (Read that encounter power. And then read it again. And then try to read it any way in which it isn't broken. It is.)

Weapon Focus doesn't work for implements - you need the Implement Focus feat.

Dual Implement Spellcaster is only worthwhile when you've got at least a +2 and typically a +3 or higher in your off-hand. Worry more about your primary implement first, though. And yes, Staff of Ruin is the #1 implement for you. If you go Halfling, you can get by with the ... Goblin Tooth(?) implement - the one that gives a +1 item bonus to damage against creatures larger than you for each point of enhancement bonus the implement has.

If you go ranged (eg, one of the Dex-based Sorcs), you can skip Armor Proficiency (or Unarmored Agility) for a short time. Superior Reflexes is more important than Armor Prof. You'll have to decide between Superior Will and Amor Prof for your second defensive feat and taking the last one as your 3rd defensive feat. If you are Str-based, Armor Prof. Superior Will becomes your second defensive feat that you'll take.

Remember to focus on accuracy first. Charisma your highest score, Expertise feat, Superior Implement (Accurate most likely, though some others are possible depending on your powers) should be #1 priorities. And Flame Spiral at level 3. Its one of the best striker encounter powers in the game, bar none.

[Titan]

take the Voice of Thunder paragon path. (Read that encounter power. And then read it again. And then try to read it any way in which it isn't broken. It is.)

You need the Implement Focus feat.

Dual Implement Spellcaster is only worthwhile when you've got at least a +2 and typically a +3 or higher in your off-hand. Worry more about your primary implement first, though. And yes, Staff of Ruin is the #1 implement for you.

If you go ranged (eg, one of the Dex-based Sorcs), you can skip Armor Proficiency (or Unarmored Agility) for a short time. Superior Reflexes is more important than Armor Prof. You'll have to decide between Superior Will and Amor Prof for your second defensive feat and taking the last one as your 3rd defensive feat. If you are Str-based, Armor Prof. Superior Will becomes your second defensive feat that you'll take.

Remember to focus on accuracy first. Charisma your highest score, Expertise feat, Superior Implement (Accurate most likely, though some others are possible depending on your powers) should be #1 priorities. And Flame Spiral at level 3. Its one of the best striker encounter powers in the game, bar none.

Thank you for the advice. I also read the encounter power. So Round 1 I use it, do 2d6+ Charisma Mod+ Etc. Modifiers in a Close Burst 2, so up to 25 enemies, and then on Round 2 before I do anything I can do that same attack again, for free, and then hit them with another encounter, essentially putting out 6d6+3x ChaMod+3x Etc.Modifiers over 2 rounds. Okay, where's the part where I explode for doing that.

Thanks for clarifying the implement focus feat. Will definitely look into the Staff of Ruin.

[wolfstone]

I had a pair of sorcerer questions on the Sorcerous Blade channeling feat. The feat itself reads:

"When you use any ranged sorcerer attack power through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack. If you do so, the power’s range equals your melee reach."

If you use this effect, can you add the +3 proficiency bonus of the dagger to the attack roll? Also, would you add the implement or the weapon attack bonus to the roll?

[tcrudisi]

Thank you for the advice. I also read the encounter power. So Round 1 I use it, do 2d6+ Charisma Mod+ Etc. Modifiers in a Close Burst 2, so up to 25 enemies, and then on Round 2 before I do anything I can do that same attack again, for free, and then hit them with another encounter, essentially putting out 6d6+3x ChaMod+3x Etc.Modifiers over 2 rounds. Okay, where's the part where I explode for doing that.

Thanks for clarifying the implement focus feat. Will definitely look into the Staff of Ruin.

It's not over 2 rounds unless you somehow miss. (Note: A smart DM will try to move monsters away from you because of this power. A smart player will counter with the Arcane Reach feat.)

Round 1:
Hit: damage. Repeat the attack next round as a free action.

Round 2:
Hit: damage. Repeat the attack next round as a free action.

Round 3:
Hit: damage. Repeat the attack next round as a free action.

Round 4:
Hit: damage. Repeat the attack next round as a free action.

"But, wait, it clearly means only once!" Maybe. But they sure as heck didn't state that. There are 2 ways of reading this power.

Hit: 2d6+mods thunder damage, and you push the target 1 square. Before you take any actions during your next turn, you can repeat the attack as a free action.

#1: Attack means the attack power. If this is true, then when you repeat the attack power, if you hit, you can repeat the attack next turn as a free action. If you hit the next turn, oh look, the hit line calls out that you get to repeat it again the following turn as a free action. If you hit then, oh look, the hit line ... you get the point.

#2: Attack means only the attack and not the attack power. In this case, you repeat the attack and follow what it says in the Hit line. That would be ... oh right, still attacking with this power in round 8.

So now we're back to RAI vs RAW. Since this was from the PHB2 and they've done errata for that book, I can only assume it was working as intended. Or, in other words, they never thought a Sorc would MC into Bard just to pick up one power.

Yes, this is stupidly broken. Yes, it might get the DM to throw books at you. However, if you have a lenient or crazy DM, it is, bar none, the best paragon path for a thunder wizard. Since that's what you are building, I'm bringing it to your attention.

[tcrudisi]

I had a pair of sorcerer questions on the Sorcerous Blade channeling feat. The feat itself reads:

"When you use any ranged sorcerer attack power through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack. If you do so, the power’s range equals your melee reach."

If you use this effect, can you add the +3 proficiency bonus of the dagger to the attack roll? Also, would you add the implement or the weapon attack bonus to the roll?

The power is still an implement attack, you are just now using it at range: melee rather than range: 10 (or whatever the number was). So you do not get the +3 prof. bonus from the dagger as you only get proficiency bonuses on weapon attack rolls. This is still an implement attack. The primary purpose of this feat is to help you avoid OAs. It can also help you gain CA through flanking.

And before it gets asked: Making a ranged basic attack into a melee attack does /not/ make it a melee basic attack. It is still a ranged basic attack, it is now just usable at melee range. (Though feel free to inquire to your DM about this. Its not overpowered to do so.)

[GPuzzle]

The worst part? It's expandable with Resounding Thunder, which makes it target more people, and you can make it slide with Mark of Storm.

You dominate the battlefield both position-wise and power-wise.

[Epinephrine]

It doesn't really matter how it's written; I can't think of any DM I know who wouldn't just limit it to one follow-up attack.

[GPuzzle]

It doesn't really matter how it's written; I can't think of any DM I know who wouldn't just limit it to one follow-up attack.

There is no such thing as a DM; there are only tofu blocks.

[tcrudisi]

It doesn't really matter how it's written; I can't think of any DM I know who wouldn't just limit it to one follow-up attack.

Lol. That's likely true, though I can name at least 3 who have allowed it exactly as written and 0 that I've played under who limited it to 1. Two of us 3 play by strict RAW, the other thinks he's playing by strict RAW and just has some house-rules that he thinks are RAW.

Plus, in LFR it was legal as well.

So, yeah, its one of those things where you ask the DM before you build it.

[Epinephrine]

Lol. That's likely true, though I can name at least 3 who have allowed it exactly as written and 0 that I've played under who limited it to 1. Two of us 3 play by strict RAW, the other thinks he's playing by strict RAW and just has some house-rules that he thinks are RAW.

Plus, in LFR it was legal as well.

So, yeah, its one of those things where you ask the DM before you build it.

Fair enough - it's very much a decision made at the table. While I agree that it is certainly written that way (as was that insta-gib monk attack, that let you take turns hitting two creatures until one dies), it's the small matter of convincing the DM to let you have an encounter attack rivaling good dailies. :D

[GPuzzle]

I've only seem DM's reward creativity for breaking the game without them noticing.

Makes it that much more fun.

[wolfstone]

The power is still an implement attack, you are just now using it at range: melee rather than range: 10 (or whatever the number was). So you do not get the +3 prof. bonus from the dagger as you only get proficiency bonuses on weapon attack rolls. This is still an implement attack. The primary purpose of this feat is to help you avoid OAs. It can also help you gain CA through flanking.

And before it gets asked: Making a ranged basic attack into a melee attack does /not/ make it a melee basic attack. It is still a ranged basic attack, it is now just usable at melee range. (Though feel free to inquire to your DM about this. Its not overpowered to do so.)

Is the feat worth using? I like having Ensorcelled Blade and Acid Orb as my AWs as they can both be used as basic attacks, but if I'm going with a STR-based Dragon Magic build, would another AW be better if I ditched the dagger angle and went the Staff implement route instead, seeing as how my MBAs won't be much of a problem with a high STR stat (I would think the dagger route would be better for non-STR focused builds)?

[tcrudisi]

Is the feat worth using? I like having Ensorcelled Blade and Acid Orb as my AWs as they can both be used as basic attacks, but if I'm going with a STR-based Dragon Magic build, would another AW be better if I ditched the dagger angle and went the Staff implement route instead, seeing as how my MBAs won't be much of a problem with a high STR stat (I would think the dagger route would be better for non-STR focused builds)?

I'm going to stress this as much as I can: You should either take Blazing Starfall or Dragonbreath (whatever the close blast 3 AW is, the name eludes me). You should absolutely 100% take one of those. Why? Because your job is to multi-target and those are the 2 AWs that allow you to do so. If you plan on being in melee, grab the Dragonbreath one. If you don't plan on being in melee, grab Blazing Starfall. Heck, even if you are in melee, you might consider Blazing Starfall anyway because its so much easier to target enemies with. This is true even if you are using a dagger. The only time I would consider taking both Ensorcelled Blade and Acid Orb is in a weird position where you are the only striker and you've got multiple leaders who plan on granting you melee and ranged basic attacks. I seriously doubt that is the case, however.

Between the two, assuming you don't have an Eagle Shaman or funky Warlord as your leader? Grab the MBA (Ensorcelled Blade). Yes, yes, you might have a high str. Let's compare at level 10:
Regular MBA: 1d4 +5 (str) + 3 (enhancement bonus) ... ehh. Yeah, that looks about right. 1d4 + 10ish.
Ensorcelled Blade: 1d4 + 20ish (thats with all mods).

And it only scales higher from there.

In my experience playing the Sorc (and that's a lot - I freaking love the class), the 2nd AW isn't terribly important. I usually default to Blazing Starfall for my first and, should I run out of encounter powers, I begin using it. I don't mind the d4 damage dice because I stack my mods up so high that who cares about a d4 vs a d8 or d10? And it lets me target multiple enemies. I tend to take Ensorcelled Blade as my second AW just so I can make OAs. That rarely comes up once the DM learns just how potent my OAs are. So it mostly just sits there and keeps an eye on the DM, threatening him to incur an OA from the lowly Sorc. Do it, DM. I dare ya. In other words: The control over the battlefield created just having Ensorcelled Blade on my sheet is better than the rare time when I'd be doing a d10 vs the d4 from Blazing Starfall. But that's my experience; yours may be different.

Obviously the above doesn't work if you are using a Staff of Ruin (and you probably should be). The only exception is if you are a Pixie or Halfling and you take a Goblin Totem dagger. Or flavor reasons.

And I never answered your question. I don't take the feat. For certain builds it would be useful, but I'd rather go Staff and take Staff Expertise or just grab the armor that prevents OAs. The feat used to be pretty good but it was out-classed by newer options.

[wolfstone]

I'm going to stress this as much as I can: You should either take Blazing Starfall or Dragonbreath (whatever the close blast 3 AW is, the name eludes me). You should absolutely 100% take one of those. Why? Because your job is to multi-target and those are the 2 AWs that allow you to do so. If you plan on being in melee, grab the Dragonbreath one. If you don't plan on being in melee, grab Blazing Starfall. Heck, even if you are in melee, you might consider Blazing Starfall anyway because its so much easier to target enemies with. This is true even if you are using a dagger. The only time I would consider taking both Ensorcelled Blade and Acid Orb is in a weird position where you are the only striker and you've got multiple leaders who plan on granting you melee and ranged basic attacks. I seriously doubt that is the case, however.

Between the two, assuming you don't have an Eagle Shaman or funky Warlord as your leader? Grab the MBA (Ensorcelled Blade). Yes, yes, you might have a high str. Let's compare at level 10:
Regular MBA: 1d4 +5 (str) + 3 (enhancement bonus) ... ehh. Yeah, that looks about right. 1d4 + 10ish.
Ensorcelled Blade: 1d4 + 20ish (thats with all mods).

And it only scales higher from there.

In my experience playing the Sorc (and that's a lot - I freaking love the class), the 2nd AW isn't terribly important. I usually default to Blazing Starfall for my first and, should I run out of encounter powers, I begin using it. I don't mind the d4 damage dice because I stack my mods up so high that who cares about a d4 vs a d8 or d10? And it lets me target multiple enemies. I tend to take Ensorcelled Blade as my second AW just so I can make OAs. That rarely comes up once the DM learns just how potent my OAs are. So it mostly just sits there and keeps an eye on the DM, threatening him to incur an OA from the lowly Sorc. Do it, DM. I dare ya. In other words: The control over the battlefield created just having Ensorcelled Blade on my sheet is better than the rare time when I'd be doing a d10 vs the d4 from Blazing Starfall. But that's my experience; yours may be different.

Obviously the above doesn't work if you are using a Staff of Ruin (and you probably should be). The only exception is if you are a Pixie or Halfling and you take a Goblin Totem dagger. Or flavor reasons.

And I never answered your question. I don't take the feat. For certain builds it would be useful, but I'd rather go Staff and take Staff Expertise or just grab the armor that prevents OAs. The feat used to be pretty good but it was out-classed by newer options.

Burning Spray is the Close Blast 3 AW power. I went with a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer with The feats to enhance lightning damage Dragon Breath and make it reusable: Ancient Soul + Nusemnee's Atonement. I also chose Enlarged Dragon Breath and Hurl Breath. Can those two combine for an Area Burst 3 within 10 squares?

I also use Empowered Dragon Breath for more damage.

[tcrudisi]

Burning Spray is the Close Blast 3 AW power. I went with a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer with The feats to enhance lightning damage Dragon Breath and make it reusable: Ancient Soul + Nusemnee's Atonement. I also chose Enlarged Dragon Breath and Hurl Breath. Can those two combine for an Area Burst 3 within 10 squares?

I also use Empowered Dragon Breath for more damage.

Just via Hurl Breath and Enlarged Dragon Breath? No. EDB says that it becomes a close blast 5 instead of a close blast 3. Hurl Breath says it becomes Area Burst 2 instead of a Close Blast 3. They don't stack. It's an either/or proposition.

Do note that if you can give your breath weapon the Thunder keyword, you can use Resounding Thunder (paragon level feat) to make it an area burst 3.

Do you have a way of resisting your own breath weapon? Do note that your Dragon Soul feature gives you resistance to Lightning and then says that you ignore any target's (including yourself) resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance. In other words: re-breathers hurt themselves a lot because they ignore their own resistance.

[GPuzzle]

Actually, due to the way it is worded, they can choose not to.

Which means you will take damage but not as much.

But yes, they hurt themselves a lot.

[masteraleph]

As a note- this is why rebreathers generally want the Sensate theme. You'll be generating temp HPs whenever you use Dragonbreath (since it's an Encounter attack power), which in turn are sapped by having DB redirected against you...but it reduces the damage you take considerably.

[tcrudisi]

Actually, due to the way it is worded, they can choose not to.

Which means you will take damage but not as much.

But yes, they hurt themselves a lot.

Gotcha. That makes sense then. Which part is the option? I just read their penetrate and that doesn't appear to be optional - at least in the online builder. "Your arcane powers ignore any target's resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance." I figure its probably something else that I'm missing, though.

[GPuzzle]

Gotcha. That makes sense then. Which part is the option? I just read their penetrate and that doesn't appear to be optional - at least in the online builder. "Your arcane powers ignore any target's resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance." I figure its probably something else that I'm missing, though.

In the book there's an added "can" before "ignore".

[tcrudisi]

In the book there's an added "can" before "ignore".

I just looked in my book and checked the errata - neither had the word "can" in there. I also checked Arcane Power's book and the 2 souls there use the same wording.

I'm still confused as to how you can choose to resist your own dragon breath since you are giving it the arcane keyword via Arcane Soul.

[GPuzzle]

Weird, could've sworn it did.

Eh, might be just going mad again.

[wolfstone]

Is the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat + Dagger implement route worth using, or would it be better to stick with Staff implements? Why is one better than the other if that is so?

[masteraleph]

Is the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat + Dagger implement route worth using, or would it be better to stick with Staff implements? Why is one better than the other if that is so?

SBC has the following issues:

1) Doesn't work with Area spells.
2) Doesn't work with PP abilities (it specifies Sorcerer powers; E11s and D20s are not Sorcerer powers).

Daggers have the following advantages:

1) Usable Superior types other than Accurate (Incendiary for fire, which is better than Accurate if you have a few Reflex attacks- and you should- as well as Lancing for Lightning which is about equal with accurate).

2) Several enchantments that are better- Thunderbolt for Lightning in Paragon and Epic (13+ rather than 5+), Weapon of Speed (rare, but gives you a minor action MBA), Rebounding (gives you an RBA on a miss).

Staffs have the following advantages:

1) Easy Item bonus if you don't need it for elemental conversion (Ruin).

2) Staff Expertise (don't grant OAs).

3) A few other specialized Enchantments (including Hellfire, which can be very nice).

Bottom line: Generically, I'd go Daggers and wear Shimmering Armor, bypassing SBC. If you're a Demonskin Adept, staffs, since you'll need to switch armor by mid-Paragon (or else take Shiradi Champion as your Epic Destiny).

[Telwar]

Bottom line: Generically, I'd go Daggers and wear Shimmering Armor, bypassing SBC.

Yah, for my fire elementalist, I use daggers (Incendiary Dagger of Speed, yo), and Shimmering Armor, getting my item bonus to damage from bracers (since I'm RBAing it up all the time). Our paladin tank can be a little leaky at times, especially when the ghouls swarm over the walls.

[masteraleph]

Yah, for my fire elementalist, I use daggers (Incendiary Dagger of Speed, yo), and Shimmering Armor, getting my item bonus to damage from bracers (since I'm RBAing it up all the time). Our paladin tank can be a little leaky at times, especially when the ghouls swarm over the walls.

Yeah, Demonskin Adept is a decent PP for Fire Elementalists, but losing Shimmering Armor hurts. Also, adding in Flame Spiral via Reserve Maneuver works beautifully for Fire Elementalists, so picking a PP with a lousy E11 doesn't lose you much.