(3.5) Help me pick a 3rd level power for a psywar

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, ranged psywar/incarnate, sneaky skillmonkey. Wielding thrown knives, would normally be good for telekinetic boomerang, but I found a better way to get the same effect with some favorable houserules.

So, basically tell me what 3rd level powers you like for psywar, your experiences, combos, tricks, etc. Pretty much anything at this point; I really have minimal experience with this list, or with the psywar's extremely small PP pool. I have 1-2 feats to spare, but that's about it, and just one 3rd level power to start with.

It'll be a 10th level character starting out, if that matters at all. Male mongrelfolk psywar2/incarnate3/Psycarnum theurgey homebrew 5.

[Phelix-Mu]

*utility bump*
:smallsmile:

[Jeff the Green]

It's hard to go wrong with dimension slide; Blink Shirt's better if you have the Heart bind, but it costs a feat on an Incarnate and I don't remember what you said you were doing with bind progression on that.

It's too bad you're not going for claws or you could take incarnum fusion, but since your DM is obviously amenable to homebrew, maybe adapt one of the spells in MoI? Guardian spirit or valiant spirit seems appropriate. Maybe rend essentia,

[Phelix-Mu]

It's hard to go wrong with dimension slide; Blink Shirt's better if you have the Heart bind, but it costs a feat on an Incarnate and I don't remember what you said you were doing with bind progression on that.

It's too bad you're not going for claws or you could take incarnum fusion, but since your DM is obviously amenable to homebrew, maybe adapt one of the spells in MoI? Guardian spirit or valiant spirit seems appropriate. Maybe rend essentia,

Ooh. I hadn't thought of making a power adaptation of one of the incarnum spells.

I will post the adaptation and build that I am using on your Nightwearer thread, once I actually get the details down; your suggestions have been most helpful in bringing this project into reality, Jeff the Green. Most of my dream-inspired characters end up being mechanical monstrosities, but I'm starting to like this one.

[Jeff the Green]

:smallredface:, :smallsmile:, and :smallcool:.

I'm very glad to hear it. Personally I'd probably choose valiant spirit, make it Personal, and then add an augment to expand it to an ally (applicable multiple times) and maybe one to allow you to activate it more than once. I think that'd be okay for a 3rd level power; it's a 4th-level spell but it's also Target: one creature and you get it the same level as a Cleric (earlier than Bard or Paladin), so I don't think it'd be a problem. Maybe make it a 4-point augment to make it affect one additional creature and 1-2 for each beyond that. At 15 PP (the equivalent of the 8th-level mass valiant spirit), you're affecting you plus 6-12 more creatures, considerably less than the Cleric's 15 creatures, but you have the benefit of being able to scale it to exactly the number you need to affect.

Also, I think by RAW the mass version of the spell ends for everyone after someone's activated it even though each target has to activate theirs separately. You should probably make sure that this isn't the case in the augment.

[Rubik]

Do you have Strength of My Enemy as a power known yet? It's great on a ranged attacker, since the power never specifies melee attacks, especially if you have a bow of the wintermoon or similar. Add the elvencraft property to make it even better.

Also, Greater Concealing Amorpha is great, because it makes you immune to all targeted effects and prevents AoOs against you.

[Phelix-Mu]

Do you have Strength of My Enemy as a power known yet? It's great on a ranged attacker, since the power never specifies melee attacks, especially if you have a bow of the wintermoon or similar. Add the elvencraft property to make it even better.

Also, Greater Concealing Amorpha is great, because it makes you immune to all targeted effects and prevents AoOs against you.

Strength of my enemy is one of the main inspirations for the optics of the character; big, tall fatso throws sharp stuff at enemy, then turns into a tower of muscle. Credit the mangaka Oh! Great for some of the visuals, but really that power is some awesome fluff. So yes, I took that power right away.

The concealing amorpha is really good, but the greater version seems so short-lived. There are sources of concealment related to the homebrew and other incarnum, but I'll have to look at the stacking issues; one of them specifies that it stacks. Combine that with the anti-arrow meld, and that would be pretty boss. The incarnum miss chance may be less resource intensive, though. Not sure, but it's certainly longer-lived.

[Rubik]

Strength of my enemy is one of the main inspirations for the optics of the character; big, tall fatso throws sharp stuff at enemy, then turns into a tower of muscle. Credit the mangaka Oh! Great for some of the visuals, but really that power is some awesome fluff. So yes, I took that power right away.

The concealing amorpha is really good, but the greater version seems so short-lived. There are sources of concealment related to the homebrew and other incarnum, but I'll have to look at the stacking issues; one of them specifies that it stacks. Combine that with the anti-arrow meld, and that would be pretty boss. The incarnum miss chance may be less resource intensive, though. Not sure, but it's certainly longer-lived.Some. Manifester arrows could help with cost issues, and Linked Power could help with action economy. Make sure you have a swift action power with a low cost, like Grip of Iron.

[Fax Celestis]

Are Hyperconscious, Untapped Potential, or pathfinder psionics options?

[Phelix-Mu]

Are Hyperconscious, Untapped Potential, or pathfinder psionics options?

I know little of those books beyond their reputation, but I believe I have a good argument for expanding the psywar list (it's microscopic), so go ahead and let me know what options you know. Hyperconscious I was looking to buy, anyway, so maybe that is preferable to the others (though if the PF stuff is on their SRD, that would be nifty too, assuming ease of backporting).

[Fax Celestis]

Lets see. Hyperconscious:
Alloyed Hide (psywar 2) gives you basically stone skin, but it's a small bonus. Dr 5/bludgeoning, prevents max 10/ML. Augments to dr/magic, dr/adamantine, and more importantly dr/mithral. Who owns a mithral weapon?

Call Beast of the Id is a psion 2 power, but is basically Summon Monster for psions.

Causal Loop is psion 3 but is basically rounds/level Deja Vu.

Circumstance Shield (psywar 1) gives a 2+(1/5pp) insight bonus to reflex saves. Hours/level.

Construct Toughness (psywar 2) gives crit but not precision immunity for 10 min/lev, and halves bludgeoning damage. Combine with Alloyed Hide for luls.

Psychic Bodyguard (psion 2) lets you make Will saves for an ally for hours/level. If you fail, they still take the negative and there's no drawback to you. Great to slap on someone wth a weak save.

Psionic Resistance (psion 1) gives you - 2+(1/2pp) resistance bonus to saves for minutes/level. Can quickly outstrip the bonus from a level-appropriate cloak of resistance.

Steal Item (psion/psywar 3) lets you teleport an item in range into your hands. If it's attended, the attendee gets a reflex save. If they fail they drop it. If they fail by 4 or more, it shows up in your hand or pack.

Those are the greatest hits.

Psionics Unleashed has few things that aren't straight 3.5 translations, and AFAIR they're all psion stuff. Psionics Expanded has a bunch of new stuff but I'll have to find my book.

[Irk]

Actually, funny thing about the PF PsyWar is that I feel the powers really peak at second level. Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/power-lists/power-list-psychic-warrior), take a look at Wintry Grasp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/w/wintry-gasp), Sidestep (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/s/sidestep), and Proximity Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/proximity-strike). They are all pretty strong. I made a PF PsyWar for a campaign, and it's great since the PF PsyWar has a lot of off-turn utility, with some of these strikes and one of the paths, I can basically make attacks off-turn while avoiding any attempts to hit me in a variety of ways. I'm a big fan, though I did not think I would be.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, sounds like there is some good stuff in Hyperconscious, as I'd heard. That steal item looks pretty sweet, and would go well with this character's thievery background.

Keep it coming.

[Irk]

There is always Share Pain + Psicrystal Affinity for a good defense.

Add Feat Leech and you can borrow feat chains given to your Psicrystal for some time (something you wouldn't take, like the Spring Attack chain, but may be useful, so you give it to your Psicrystal so you can borrow it when needed).

You may already have the Psionic Focus + Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion combo, if you do not, I suggest building towards it. Basis for the Psycarnum Warrior.

For a sneaky character, depending on how much your DM customizes their monsters, Touchsight is great.

A cool trick I came up with a while ago relies on Astral Construct + the Power Storing Menu Option to spit out as many Astral Constructs as you have PP. Requires the feat Advance Construction, but fits nicely with the Psycarnum recharge technique above.

You could tie all of them (except Touchsight) together by grabbing Psicrystal Affinity and Advanced Construction, as well as the power Feat Leech, retrain (if possible) for Astral Construct and Share Pain. Give your Psicrystal the feats Azure Talent, Psionic Meditation, and Psycarnum Talent. By Feat Leeching the recharge chain, you can gain large numbers of PP quickly, besides your regular pool, then channel them all into Share Pain and a big Astral Construct with Power Storing with Astral Construct. In a battle, pop the Power Storing and make the Astral Construct created (as a free action) have Power Storing as an ability, and do the same again and again until you have expended your bonus PP, so you have a large army of AC to slaughter opponents. Power Storing is a free action, so they can still move and attack. Maybe halve the number to make them last for 2 rounds, it'll still be pretty strong.

I think it's kind of a cool idea, but sadly it does not quite fit into your theme.

EDIT: Link to the article with Power Storing (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a) (scroll down).

[Phelix-Mu]

I neglected to mention that I am aiming for fairly low-mid op here, and I don't want to outshine the party ardent, who is the "primary caster" of the party (cause I don't see the dread necro filling that role). Thus, tricks like the recharge, and probably even psicrystal stuff are out. The latter is more of a flavor choice; I've done the "character+companion" thing several times in a row, and have played out that meme. Soulspark Familiar is getting a bit of an overhaul, though, so there's that; I'll probably be squeaking in Share Soulmeld with it at some point, though I'm not sure if it's worth it, since it will likely just end up being a scout-type assistant that fades into the background (or gets reshaped) when not in use.

One area I am kind of sweating is hp. I don't expect to be front-line anything (that goes to the re-vamped soulknife and the duskblade), but I am a bit worried about my 3d6+2d10+5d4 base hp, even with a high constitution. Seems an item of +Con is in my future, and I took empathic transfer and expect to have Therapeutic Mantle up most of the time (houseruled to work with touch of healing power, acquired by Expanded Knowledge so the character can be backup healer). We go with 90% of hp, generally speaking, so that should land me with about...a little over 100hp total at level 10. Compare to full psywar expected to get about 110-120 depending on buffs to Con. I guess that is actually pretty good. I'd like to cover a masochism theme with the character, mostly fluffy, but it wouldn't hurt if he's a bit reckless in battle, and I'd like some survivability there.

I suppose only time will tell if it's tough enough to soak a few hits, but it should be pretty good. Fax's suggestions from Hyperconscious may help boost me the rest of the way (or at least ease my mind a bit, lol).

EDIT: @Irk: Yet another reason to always get astral construct, lol. I guess that would be decent investment on non-native manifesting lists, but still, what were they thinking.... That power is still pretty much the basis of a whole bunch of totally boss builds, and pretty much puts psionic minionmancy on the map (unless you follow the idiotic Complete Psionic nerf...idiots). But minionmancy this time belongs to the dread necro, and I don't want to be stealing thunder from amoral undead-lovers.

[Rubik]

Psicrystals are pretty much a necessary staple for any manifester, given how important they are to using psionic foci, so you might as well add in Vigor and Share Pain into the mix. Feat Leech, maybe not so much.

You really should take Linked Power, though. Then you can manifest without using your actions each turn (especially useful with Hustle and Psionic Meditation, to regain your focus without spending standard/move actions).

[Phelix-Mu]

Psicrystals are pretty much a necessary staple for any manifester, given how important they are to using psionic foci, so you might as well add in Vigor and Share Pain into the mix. Feat Leech, maybe not so much.

You really should take Linked Power, though. Then you can manifest without using your actions each turn (especially useful with Hustle and Psionic Meditation, to regain your focus without spending standard/move actions).

Share pain requires Expanded Knowledge, I think, and only just came online, so I can't get it til 12th (my level 9 feat is spoken for). So that trick is 1/7th of my powers (2/7 with vigor), and 2/7 feats. It really pays off, I know, but not sure that's necessary for someone on the back lines and likely to have access to other damage mitigation (possible melds, for instance).

Linked Power is a harder choice. I think it makes the cut, but Psionic Meditation didn't, so I don't know just how effective that is going to be. It's pretty much the reason I've aimed almost entirely for 1min/ML or longer powers, since I don't expect to be doing much in-combat manifesting.

[Rubik]

Well, I suppose you could just focus on your miss chances and hope you don't get hit particularly hard through them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I suppose you could just focus on your miss chances and hope you don't get hit particularly hard through them.

That seems like the first line of defense, since at least one source of miss chance stacks (is there are hard limit on miss chance?). Maybe Astral Vambraces for big battles where the hits may be too hard to just soak? We have a 10 minutes to reshape melds, up to (Con mods) melds per day, so I'll have a chance to fill in for situational stuff that isn't optimal all of the time.

I'll probably stick that psychic skin that grants one of the concealing amorpha on the to-buy list.

[Rubik]

A psychoactive skin of proteus would make for an excellent defense, given all the truly excellent forms available, even at 7 HD and below. But if you can't afford that, how about the skin in CPsi that acts as plate mail? Though Inertial Armor can (eventually) get you a higher bonus.

Oh, and you should invest in lots of 1st level power stones. According to CPsi, you can use your own pp pool to manifest the power in a stone in order to manifest it at your manifester level. It uses your pp and flushes the stone clean, but 1st level stones are only 25 gp apiece, anyway. It's like getting a whole new power known for cheap!

[Irk]

For defense, Bend Space (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20031219a) is pretty unique, and helps against both melee and range without dipping into things like Share Pain + Psicrystal.

Mantled Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) + Deception Mantle will give 50% miss chance.

Damn, I wish there was more in Mind's Eye. I hope this helps. I know it's just a third level power and I've been suggesting more than that, but a bit more information on the character would help.


I feel compelled to bring up the wonderfully named Third Eye of Third Eye (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021225a).

Also, this gave me a new character idea: The AoO Scout.

Sidestep + Improved Sidestep (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20030426a) + Ranged Threat + Rapid Reload.

Near someone? Reload your crossbow, provoke and AoO, instantly move 10 feet, avoid said AoO and get a full attack with skirmish damage. If there are two foes 10 feet between each other, you can instead bounce from one to the other and use Improved Skirmish on the second.

Just a good alternative to the Travel Devotion Cloistered Cleric scout or any other way of sticking in that 10 feet of movement. Far more reliable. Doable by level 6 with a Psion 3/Scout 3, without taking into account bonus power points. With an 18 Intelligence and 1 level in Psion, so it really comes online at level 3-ish. By then you can have up to 7 feats including Psion bonus, human, and flaws. Could be interesting.

Also off-topic. Sorry Phelix :smallredface:.

EDIT: I can't agree more with what Rubik says about the power stones. great for any utility/investigative powers, and good for things like Inertial Armor or, hear me out, Astral Construct, but only for scouting purposes, at that seems to mesh with you character in a more satisfactory way.

EDIT the second: There is no limit on miss chance but I've never found a way to get it beyond 50%. Even Fellmist robe maxes out at 50%, and it's very hard to get it beyond that because sources of it don't stack, according to the Rules Compendium. Maybe with some tricks, one could boost up Fellmist robe. There are ways to remove the cap. I'm going to look into that.

[Rubik]

Sidestep + Improved Sidestep (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20030426a) + Ranged Threat + Rapid Reload.

Near someone? Reload your crossbow, provoke and AoO, instantly move 10 feet, avoid said AoO and get a full attack with skirmish damage. If there are two foes 10 feet between each other, you can instead bounce from one to the other and use Improved Skirmish on the second.Wouldn't it be better to use a longbow instead of a crossbow? You wouldn't have to eat the feat for Rapid Reload. After all, Ranged Threat requires quite a few prereqs already.


EDIT: I can't agree more with what Rubik says about the power stones. great for any utility/investigative powers, and good for things like Inertial Armor or, hear me out, Astral Construct, but only for scouting purposes, at that seems to mesh with you character in a more satisfactory way.I don't believe you can manifest from a power stone with a power that's not on your class list. A shaper could manifest from an Astral Construct stone, but not a straight psywar.

[Irk]

Wouldn't it be better to use a longbow instead of a crossbow? You wouldn't have to eat the feat for Rapid Reload. After all, Ranged Threat requires quite a few prereqs already.
You are quite correct. My mistake.


I don't believe you can manifest from a power stone with a power that's not on your class list. A shaper could manifest from an Astral Construct stone, but not a straight psywar.
True. You could use Use Psionic Device, but that isn't really worth building towards. DC 21 is fairly high, and though doable, not worth spending the material to do so.

[Fax Celestis]

Gems from Psionics Expanded:

Inevitable Strike is basically True Strike on steroids. Swift action, psywar 1.

Deflect could be worthwhile if your DM likes archers: it's essentially Deflect Arrows as a power. Otherwise skip it.

A lot of the psywar 2 debuffs are melee, and you're arching, so that's out. However, that means Ephemeral Bolt is on the table. Make your arrows ethereal, and then cause them to return to the physical after striking whenever you want, and damage isn't inflicted until that happens. Plus you get bonus damage.

Expose Weakness (psywar 3) is fantastic, and anyone in the party with sneak attack will love you to death. Flanks the target for the duration, +4 to confirm crits, and fortification is rolled twice, using worse result. If you augment, they're flat-footed instead.

Physical Acceleration (psywar 3) is basically personal range Haste. Augment it to cast it as a swift action.

Flexible Trajectory (psywar 4) is Diablo 2 guided arrow.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, and you should invest in lots of 1st level power stones. According to CPsi, you can use your own pp pool to manifest the power in a stone in order to manifest it at your manifester level. It uses your pp and flushes the stone clean, but 1st level stones are only 25 gp apiece, anyway. It's like getting a whole new power known for cheap!

Could you explain how this works in more detail? I think I get it, but not 100% clear.

[Rubik]

Could you explain how this works in more detail? I think I get it, but not 100% clear.Let's say you have a power stone of Inertial Armor (ML 1) and a native manifester level of 3. You can either use the power stone as is for a +4 armor bonus to your AC for 1 hour (which flushes the stone, as normal), or you can expend your own power points (up to 3) and gain a +4 or +5 armor bonus (depending on whether you spent 1 or 3 pp) for 3 hours (which also flushes the stone).

So basically the power stone grants you the ability to manifest the power in it as if it were on your list of powers known. You still need the power on your class list to use it, however, unless you have ranks in Use Psionic Device (or UMD and the Magic Mantle).

[Phelix-Mu]

Let's say you have a power stone of Inertial Armor (ML 1) and a native manifester level of 3. You can either use the power stone as is for a +4 armor bonus to your AC for 1 hour (which flushes the stone, as normal), or you can expend your own power points (up to 3) and gain a +4 or +5 armor bonus (depending on whether you spent 1 or 3 pp) for 3 hours (which also flushes the stone).

So basically the power stone grants you the ability to manifest the power in it as if it were on your list of powers known. You still need the power on your class list to use it, however, unless you have ranks in Use Psionic Device (or UMD and the Magic Mantle).

Wow. That is a marked improvement in the mechanic beyond what scrolls allow. It's like a mini-staff. Thanks for this tip; my character is going to have some fund-access issues anyway due to in-character stuff, and this sure is cheaper than dorjes that he might not use that often.

I do have access to UPD through Psion's Eyes soulmeld, I believe. You imply that I can do the trick with powers from other lists by using UPD? Nice.

[Rubik]

Wow. That is a marked improvement in the mechanic beyond what scrolls allow. It's like a mini-staff. Thanks for this tip; my character is going to have some fund-access issues anyway due to in-character stuff, and this sure is cheaper than dorjes that he might not use that often.Not to mention that 1st-4th level powers are some of the best ones in the game for various reasons. I never seem to have enough powers of those levels, though I usually use my 5th and 6th level powers known on lower level powers. So I buy power stones of 1st and 2nd level powers and start taking 3rd and 4th ones once I'm no longer interested by the choices I have at higher levels.

Good stuff.


I do have access to UPD through Psion's Eyes soulmeld, I believe. You imply that I can do the trick with powers from other lists by using UPD? Nice.Very much so. You're a psychic warrior, so your power points are at a premium. I'd focus on long-term buff powers and powers with other long-term uses that don't require much (or any) augmentation. Psionic Minor Creation is a favorite. Buy a few dozen once you've got the spare cash.