Is it like this for Martial Study and Martial Stance

[Petrakiss]

So is it like this for a fighter class taking this feat:

(non swordsage class)

To get Searing Charge which is a 4th maneuver and requires (One Desert Wind maneuver) I do..

Initiator Level of 8 =4th level and below maneuvers

1) I take 1 Martial Study in desert wind maneuver:
2) I then take another Martial Study to get Searing Charge by forging (One Desert Wind maneuver) for its requirement?

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So if thats how it goes then is this right too?

Martial Study = For obtaining maneuvers
Martial Stance = For obtaining stances

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Also warm chocolate cake, dripping with hot caramel and adding a scoop of cold vanilla ice-cream ........ :3

[avr]

If you're playing a fighter or any other non-ToB class your initiator level is half your total level. You need at least IL 7 to take Martial Study for a 4th level maneuver, so you'd need to be character level 14. And yes, you'd need to take a different Martial Study feat to get the prerequisite - though you could retrain the prereq later without losing the use of the Searing Charge maneuver.

Yes, you're right about the difference between Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Enjoy your cake/ice cream whether it's real or a metaphor!

[Petrakiss]

If you're playing a fighter or any other non-ToB class your initiator level is half your total level. You need at least IL 7 to take Martial Study for a 4th level maneuver, so you'd need to be character level 14. And yes, you'd need to take a different Martial Study feat to get the prerequisite - though you could retrain the prereq later without losing the use of the Searing Charge maneuver.

Yes, you're right about the difference between Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Enjoy your cake/ice cream whether it's real or a metaphor!

Thank you avr ^_^ and yes..... its real....as real as metaphors go.... (brain just explodes and farts out poop)

[Petrakiss]

If you're playing a fighter or any other non-ToB class your initiator level is half your total level. You need at least IL 7 to take Martial Study for a 4th level maneuver, so you'd need to be character level 14. And yes, you'd need to take a different Martial Study feat to get the prerequisite - though you could retrain the prereq later without losing the use of the Searing Charge maneuver.

Yes, you're right about the difference between Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Enjoy your cake/ice cream whether it's real or a metaphor!

Hey what do you mean by this "though you could retrain the prereq later without losing the use of the Searing Charge maneuver" retain? can you give me an example of this?

[avr]

Hey what do you mean by this "though you could retrain the prereq later without losing the use of the Searing Charge maneuver" retain? can you give me an example of this?
Sure.

You take Martial Study once and use it to learn Burning Blade early in your career. At level 14 you spend one of your Fighter bonus feats to get Martial Study (Searing Charge), using Burning Blade to meet the prerequisite.

Then you decide that you really want the Holocaust Cloak stance and that Burning Blade is surplus to requirements. Using the retraining rules (in PHB II) you retrain the Martial Study (Burning Blade) feat to Martial Stance (Holocaust Cloak), using Searing Charge to meet the prerequisites for Holocaust Cloak.

Even though you no longer have Burning Blade you can still use Searing Charge. The prerequisite for ToB maneuvers is only required to learn the maneuver, not to continue using it.

[Petrakiss]

Sure.

You take Martial Study once and use it to learn Burning Blade early in your career. At level 14 you spend one of your Fighter bonus feats to get Martial Study (Searing Charge), using Burning Blade to meet the prerequisite.

Then you decide that you really want the Holocaust Cloak stance and that Burning Blade is surplus to requirements. Using the retraining rules (in PHB II) you retrain the Martial Study (Burning Blade) feat to Martial Stance (Holocaust Cloak), using Searing Charge to meet the prerequisites for Holocaust Cloak.

Even though you no longer have Burning Blade you can still use Searing Charge. The prerequisite for ToB maneuvers is only required to learn the maneuver, not to continue using it.

Ah thats awesome! I got confused with this

Martial Study:
"A maneuver learned through this feat cannot be exchanged for a different maneuver if you are a crusader, swordsage, or warblade. Once you choose a maneuver with this feat, you cannot change it."
But since I can retrain it I dont have to spend another MS feat. ^_^

also thank you for the explanation on the step by step process. that helped me alot (gives you a voucher for 5 free pancakes)

[Sian]

Retraining still demands that feats are legal, and the new feat are legal at the point where you gained the old feat (so you can't for an example retrain your first level feat into Weapon Specialization, without having another feat being available for being taken at first level)

Retraining out of Martial Study (Burning Blade) would make Martial Study (Searing Charge) illegal, which in turn means you don't qualify for a Stance that requires a Desert Wind Maneuver.

while sure you could argue otherwise it would be clasified as heavy cheese

[Aegis013]

while sure you could argue otherwise it would be clasified as heavy cheese

Depends on the table. Consult your DM.

[Sian]

Depends on the table. Consult your DM.

sure, everything depends on the table (homebrew galore), but in general debate it would count as such...

[Aegis013]

sure, everything depends on the table (homebrew galore), but in general debate it would count as such...

At my table, where homebrew is generally frowned upon, it's seen as perfectly ok for a Martial Adept to take a "One [Discipline] maneuver required" prerequisite maneuver and then train out the maneuver that was used to get the previously mentioned maneuver in the first place for something else. It's this way because we generally play RAW, and unless it's a merely a typo (such as Vigilante spells per day) we have no consideration for RAI.

Alternatively buying one of the Crown of the White Ravens or iterative items and using that to qualify for a maneuver with prerequisites and then removing the item is also considered kosher at my table.

So general debate is also dependent on your table. Anything that might be considered cheese is subjective, after all.

[Vogonjeltz]

Retraining still demands that feats are legal, and the new feat are legal at the point where you gained the old feat (so you can't for an example retrain your first level feat into Weapon Specialization, without having another feat being available for being taken at first level)

Retraining out of Martial Study (Burning Blade) would make Martial Study (Searing Charge) illegal, which in turn means you don't qualify for a Stance that requires a Desert Wind Maneuver.

while sure you could argue otherwise it would be clasified as heavy cheese

More importantly you can never retrain a 1st level feat to be something like Weapon Specialization because it requires you to have a particular level. By that same token, you can never retrain a martial study feat to get a maneuver that you didn't qualify for at the same level you got the feat in the first place. So, an 8th level Fighter's 8th level bonus feat is only good for anything works off IL 4, no matter how many levels they gain after the fact.

[Petrakiss]

More importantly you can never retrain a 1st level feat to be something like Weapon Specialization because it requires you to have a particular level. By that same token, you can never retrain a martial study feat to get a maneuver that you didn't qualify for at the same level you got the feat in the first place. So, an 8th level Fighter's 8th level bonus feat is only good for anything works off IL 4, no matter how many levels they gain after the fact.

so say the you reach level 16 which game you IL8 and also you gain a feat (because you hit level 16) and then with the stonedragon belt (grating you access to level 9 IL) you retrain all 3 stonedragon manuvers you had prev for 1 9th maneuver ?

3 matrual feats that grant you access to maneuvers then another matrual feat at 16 which you retrain all prev 3 to this new one so essentially you lose 3 feats because the requirement for a 9th maneuver is 3 maneuvers

[DarkSonic1337]

No that's not how that works. 9th level maneuvers require IL 17, which you do not have. Even if you did get to IL 17, you could not retrain your old feats for martial study to grab 9th level maneuvers because at the time you acquired those feats you did not have IL 17.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say for the second part. Do you think that requiring 3 stone dragon maneuvers means you can just combine 3 maneuvers you know or something?

[Rebel7284]

While we are on the topic of retraining:

Note that while retraining is explicitly an optional rule and has limitations, casting (or paying someone to cast) Embrace the Dark Chaos (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/embrace-the-dark-chaos--1163/)/Shun the Dark Chaos (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/shun-the-dark-chaos--1146/) does not involve optional rules and works great for converting low level feats into high level feats. However, considering how powerful the ability to do this is, especially if you can move around racial feats or weapon proficiencies, many DM ban these spells.

There is also Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

[Petrakiss]

While we are on the topic of retraining:

Note that while retraining is explicitly an optional rule and has limitations, casting (or paying someone to cast) Embrace the Dark Chaos (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/embrace-the-dark-chaos--1163/)/Shun the Dark Chaos (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/shun-the-dark-chaos--1146/) does not involve optional rules and works great for converting low level feats into high level feats. However, considering how powerful the ability to do this is, especially if you can move around racial feats or weapon proficiencies, many DM ban these spells.

There is also Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

So only chaos spell will allow me to remove the 3 maneuvers (martal study) and get a 9th maneuver if I qualify for it?

[Troacctid]

So only chaos spell will allow me to remove the 3 maneuvers (martal study) and get a 9th maneuver if I qualify for it?

You can't qualify for a 9th level maneuver with feats alone unless you are a 34th level character. It is impossible. If you want 9th level maneuvers, you need to have actual levels in initiator classes.

[Petrakiss]

You can't qualify for a 9th level maneuver with feats alone unless you are a 34th level character. It is impossible. If you want 9th level maneuvers, you need to have actual levels in initiator classes.

Magic item Stonedragon's belt allows you to gain access to a lvl 9th manuver. ?

[Troacctid]

Magic item Stonedragon's belt allows you to gain access to a lvl 9th manuver. ?

Only if you qualify for it, which requires the appropriate initiator level, which you don't have until level 34 as a non-initiator.

[Petrakiss]

Only if you qualify for it, which requires the appropriate initiator level, which you don't have until level 34 as a non-initiator.

Oh, sorry I thought the magic item was a way to bypass the whole level 34 part? like when I get the belt and when I level to gain a feat I'll meet the preq for it 3 manuver feats --> new feat gained 9th manuver.