5TH Ed - Bard

[Praystation]

I am currently thinking of making a bard.
Simple right?
It will be only ever be a bard nothing more and hopefully nothing less.

I want him to attack from behind the front rank (there is no room and why would I want to?)
I would love him to have masses and masses of skills.
I don't want him to die.

Here is my current thoughts.
Half Elf for Cha boost, darkvision and 2 extra skills - jack of all trade soon too.
Maybe take Magic Initiate at soonest availability and pick up Magic Initiate along with Fire Blast (Sorc) or Eldritch Blast (Lock)
Then pick up something for extra skills and possibly a language in the background.

Alternatively, there is the option of going human and picking up a feat that gives me a few more skills but that seems to defeat the purpose.

Any idea's?
Anyone able to offer more insight?

[Yagyujubei]

I am currently thinking of making a bard.
Simple right?
It will be only ever be a bard nothing more and hopefully nothing less.

I want him to attack from behind the front rank (there is no room and why would I want to?)
I would love him to have masses and masses of skills.
I don't want him to die.

Here is my current thoughts.
Half Elf for Cha boost, darkvision and 2 extra skills - jack of all trade soon too.
Maybe take Magic Initiate at soonest availability and pick up Magic Initiate along with Fire Blast (Sorc) or Eldritch Blast (Lock)
Then pick up something for extra skills and possibly a language in the background.

Alternatively, there is the option of going human and picking up a feat that gives me a few more skills but that seems to defeat the purpose.

Any idea's?
Anyone able to offer more insight?

if skills are your main concern there are a couple of possible things to do.

1. Start 1 level of Rogue: They get to start with 4 skills which is the highest, and get mastery of two right out of the gate(i'm fairly sure). on top of that you will get an additional skill when you swap back over to bard for the MC.

2. Take a level in Knowledge domain cleric: This also yields two masteries (although the skills you can choose are limited), and I think gets you two languages as well.

aside from that, going pure bard with lore college is gonna be the way to go. there's no reason to take the linguist feat, as you can just get the comprehend script/languages spells without having to spend a feat, but if you REALLY want it, skilled is always an option.

just dont forget that if you're a half elf and go rogue1 > Bard you'll have 9 skills and Joat's as well as 4 masteries which is nothing to sneeze at.

ALSO don't forget that since the PHB encourages you to customize your own backgrounds you can pretty much pick any two skills to grab from your BG as long as they make some sense with that you're doing.

[Madfellow]

If you don't want to multiclass, then Lore College Bard is the way to go. If you want to be a skill monkey, then the Skilled and Linguist feats are what you want. Magic Initiate feat can give you more versatility with your spells, and yeah, Eldritch Blast is the spell you want. 1d10 ranged damage, with extra blasts as you level, as a cantrip? Yes, please! It doesn't quite match a fighter's damage output, but it's pretty good. If you take it, though, your other Magic Initiate spells have to be from the Warlock list as well. Just letting you know.

For background you might want Criminal or Urchin for proficiency with thieves' tools.

This is a very versatile build, and it sounds like fun. :smallsmile:

[Gnaeus]

1. Start 1 level of Rogue: They get to start with 4 skills which is the highest, and get mastery of two right out of the gate(i'm fairly sure). on top of that you will get an additional skill when you swap back over to bard for the MC.

2. Take a level in Knowledge domain cleric: This also yields two masteries (although the skills you can choose are limited), and I think gets you two languages as well.

aside from that, going pure bard with lore college is gonna be the way to go. there's no reason to take the linguist feat, as you can just get the comprehend script/languages spells without having to spend a feat.

That's good advice. But since you are looking at dropping a feat for a blasty cantrip, it might be more efficient to go with the standard bard 1/ warlock 2/ rest bard. That way, you can pick up 2 proficiencies from beguiling influence. You get 2 extra spell slots rechargeable on short rests. And you take agonizing blast as your other invocation and be one of the best blasters in the game.

Side note. Knowledge cleric gives 2 languages, 2 proficiencies, and skill mastery with those skills.

[Praystation]

Thanks for all the input.

Unfortunately I didn't make clear enough one of the statements I made.
"It will only ever be a bard"
No multiclassing - ever.

But Half Elf Lore Bard w/ suitable background seems the only way to go.
Damage wise - what am I able to do ranged damage before Swift Quiver?
I know if I get Magic Initiate - Eldritch Blast etc its useful but...
Is there anything else?

I guess before that point I am the ideal 5th member?
Filling the Rogue skills role without being a Rogue.

Ranger looks like they can kick it off with 5-6 skills at creation too.
Range: 3
Background: 2
If Elf: 1 - Perception
Or half elf - get 2 that way.
Just no Jack of All Trades.

I guess I am looking for the most useful (and somewhat self sufficient) ranged class.
Ranger, Bard and Rogue are all tempting.

[Starsinger]

Before swift quiver you still have a ranged weapon, you just only get one attack per turn. Alternatively, Variant Human (if allowed) will let you take a ranged cantrip at level 1, and gets one skill proficiency instead of two.

[Yagyujubei]

Grr...Someone made a great thread about the most effective archers either here or at the official wizards boards....but i cant find it. I think his numbers concluded this:

no class can compete with ranger at early levels for damage output.

at mid levels valor bard brings the best dps to the table due to swift quiver

at high levels archer fighter is best

[Praystation]

You mean this one?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage

This does cover damage but damage isn't everything (at least in my opinion)
There is out of combat use for a character too.
And dare I say it 'fluff'

[Yagyujubei]

You mean this one?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage

This does cover damage but damage isn't everything (at least in my opinion)
There is out of combat use for a character too.
And dare I say it 'fluff'

true, but strictly speaking "fluff" has zero bearing on the usefulness of a character, and if you want to balance out of combat use then you already answered your question. no class has as much utility as a bard does so they're the clear ranged choice in that regard. and looking at that thread there, they also are tops in ranged dps as well, so it seems like a no brainer to me.

[jaydubs]

And dare I say it 'fluff'

I'm a little confused on what you mean by that.

An expert archer who can also cast spells seems like it would fit in almost any fantasy setting. There's the Arcane Archer prestige class from previous editions, and the general concept is popular enough it has it's own trope page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MageMarksman). I guess the valor bard gets some extra skill related stuff on top of that, but I'm not sure how that makes it bad in terms of fluff.

Or do you just mean you're looking to play a more traditional minstrel type?

[Geoff]

I want him to attack from behind the front rank No problem, you're a caster, and you can take cantrips that are ranged so you never need enter melee willingly. Every Bard I've seen played so far has had Vicious Mockery and has had fun using it.


I would love him to have masses and masses of skills. Bards do make good skill monkeys.

I don't want him to die.Play in a campaign that starts at 5th level (or at least 2nd or 3rd).
If you're going to play him in Adventure League, you can play him as something else, entirely, for the first 4 levels, then make him a Bard before you hit 5th (in AL, you can completely re-build your character, changing any/everything but his name, between sessions, for levels 1-4). Of course, you can also get free raise dead from your faction through 4th level in AL, so it's not like death is the big disadvantage it used to be in the olden days....

[Occasional Sage]

I am currently thinking of making a bard.
Simple right?
It will be only ever be a bard nothing more and hopefully nothing less.

*snip*

I want him to attack from behind the front rank (there is no room and why would I want to?)

*snip*

Any idea's?
Anyone able to offer more insight?

Not-front-line, or ranged specifically? Because Skill Mastery: Athletics and a reach weapon makes you GREAT at knocking foes prone for your compadres to liquidate.

[Ashrym]

I am currently thinking of making a bard.
Simple right?
It will be only ever be a bard nothing more and hopefully nothing less.

I want him to attack from behind the front rank (there is no room and why would I want to?)
I would love him to have masses and masses of skills.
I don't want him to die.

Here is my current thoughts.
Half Elf for Cha boost, darkvision and 2 extra skills - jack of all trade soon too.
Maybe take Magic Initiate at soonest availability and pick up Magic Initiate along with Fire Blast (Sorc) or Eldritch Blast (Lock)
Then pick up something for extra skills and possibly a language in the background.

Alternatively, there is the option of going human and picking up a feat that gives me a few more skills but that seems to defeat the purpose.

Any idea's?
Anyone able to offer more insight?


I wouldn't bother with spending a feat on magic initiate just for a cantrip. Valor bards with multiple attacks are fine for ranged damage and lore bards are fine with a crossbow for the first bit. Unless there are some spells you really really want to snag you could always just grab a cantrip using magical secrets at 6th or 10th level for more at-will damage.

You could always go variant human because they add 1 skill anyway instead of 2, and the free feat could be used for 3 skills so I'm not sure how that defeats the purpose, tbh. That's 4 skills you are getting from your race choice using the free feat. I would just look at the skills you want, see how many that is, and then decide from there.

Half-Elf Lore -- 10 skill proficiencies
Haf-Elf Valor -- 7 skill proficiencies
Human Lore -- 8 skill proficiencies
Human Valor -- 5 skill proficiencies
Variant Human Lore -- 12 skill proficiencies (using bonus feat)
Variant Human Valor -- 9 skill proficiencies (using bonus feat)

Depending on what "fluff" you want with your skills and which skills really are important then half-elf lore or variant human valor seem to match what you want. Half-elf lore bard could also spend a feat on skills but we get to the point of overkill somewhere in there.

How many skills did you want to have?


SIDENOTE: Pick up enhance ability early. Advantage on ability (skill) checks with a lot of proficiencies and not needing someone to use their action to help for it can be handy. Invisibility is the other spell I would pick up right away because of the synergy it has with your skills.

[Person_Man]

My suggestions:

Strait Bard is generally considered one of, if not the most versatile and powerful classes in the book. So you'll probably be fine regardless of your race/feat/spell choices.
Coordinate with your other party members regarding Skill Proficiencies. The most used Skills in or immediately before combat that are useful for everyone to take are Stealth, Perception, and Athletics (if you like Shove/Grapple) or Acrobatics (to resist them). Outside of combat, there's not much of a benefit to having multiple players with Proficiency in the same Skills/Thieves Tools. Thanks to bounded accuracy (ie, reasonable DCs for everything), if everyone in your party can attempt a Skill (like Lore, Investigation, Insight), then somebody is probably going to succeed at it, even if no one has Proficiency in it. If only only one person can attempt it in a particular situation (like Deception, Persuasion, etc) then only one person needs to be Proficient in it. Also, magic can replace some Skill challenges, and its easy to improve Skill checks via the Help action or Enhance Ability. TLDR; Having "Lots of Skills" isn't useful past a certain point.
Ask your DM if he intends to use magic weapons. There's not a lot to choose from right now and the default assumption is that magic items are not used, but I know several DMs who are throwing them in. If so, then Valor Bard is worth considering, because your default "at-will" attack with magic weapons can be better then the default at-will attacks with cantrips. Also, Bards can get Expertise with Athletics and bump it up further or impose Disadvantage on checks with various spells, making Shove and the occasional Grapple useful options. Having said that, I would say that regardless of the above, Lore Bard is probably the more powerful option, since better spells are dramatically more powerful then slightly better at-will attacks.
There are three simple keys to "not dying." Have high Dexterity (and thus also AC and Initiative and Dex Saves), have high Constitution (and thus hit points and Con Saves), and don't be an idiot (ie, if you're close to dying use a healing spell or withdraw from combat, use sensible tactics, etc). You can bump up your defenses by spending your racial ability score adjustments and Ability Score Increases on Dex and Con, the Tough Feat, the Lucky Feat (save the rerolls for important failed Saves), and/or by getting your AC into the 18-19 range via various Feat/race/Dex/spell combination options.

[MaxWilson]

Having said that, I would say that regardless of the above, Lore Bard is probably the more powerful option, since better spells are dramatically more powerful then slightly better at-will attacks.
There are three simple keys to "not dying." Have high Dexterity (and thus also AC and Initiative and Dex Saves)*snip*

Valor Bard isn't just about "slightly better attacks." Its other huge benefit is that you can get AC 17 + (DX up to 2) for wearing armor + shield, as opposed to 12 + DX otherwise. Especially for a bard with only one high roll, which you'll probably put in CHA, Valor Bard is worth considering from the survivability perspective.

I've got a bard with good-but-not-great stats that I'm working on right now (DX 12, CHA 18 for variant human + Actor feat) and I'm really torn between Lore Bard for eventual Bless access at 6th level (no cleric in the party) vs. the raw survivability of actually being able to use a shield and armor. The difference between AC 13 and 18 is huge. If it were just about weapon attacks I would totally pick Lore Bard though.

[Ashrym]

Valor Bard isn't just about "slightly better attacks." Its other huge benefit is that you can get AC 17 + (DX up to 2) for wearing armor + shield, as opposed to 12 + DX otherwise. Especially for a bard with only one high roll, which you'll probably put in CHA, Valor Bard is worth considering from the survivability perspective.

I've got a bard with good-but-not-great stats that I'm working on right now (DX 12, CHA 18 for variant human + Actor feat) and I'm really torn between Lore Bard for eventual Bless access at 6th level (no cleric in the party) vs. the raw survivability of actually being able to use a shield and armor. The difference between AC 13 and 18 is huge. If it were just about weapon attacks I would totally pick Lore Bard though.

Why not spend the feat on moderately armored and go lore for 6th level magical secrets?

[MaxWilson]

Why not spend the feat on moderately armored and go lore for 6th level magical secrets?

I'm AFB, does moderately armored grant shields as well? How about heavily armored?

[Townopolis]

Moderately Armored grants proficiency in shields.

[Ashrym]

I'm AFB, does moderately armored grant shields as well? How about heavily armored?

Moderately armored grants +1 DEX or STR to go with it, medium armor, and shields. It has prereq for light armor proficiency. Heavily armored requires medium armor proficiency, grants +1 STR, and does not add shield proficiency.

[Praystation]

Stat wise for a bard.

I am still going to be ranged and for some reason i am more drawn towards Lore over Valor (if there is clearly the wrong choice for a whole catalogue of reasons, please do let me know) It sounds better for me.

What i am torn over is Race + Stat allocation.
Charisma i understand is their primary stat
Dexterity i know is important - say secondary
Con - Wis - Int - Str - Which is their main dump stat?
I have a 15 and a 14 to distribute at the top and an 8 and a 10 for the bottom.

If i go Variant Human i would end up with a 16 and a 15 main stats + Feat (massive bonus imo)
If i go Half Elf i get the 17 Cha (and dont recall if they had the other point oif where it went) But i think they get some skills too.
If i go Elf (Wild) i get +2 Dex, +1 Wis, +5' Movement, Perception Skill, Longsword/Bow prof

Is my thoughts on Stat allocation correct for Ranged?
Is Lore viable - or better?
Which race tops usefulness for Bard?

[Praystation]

I got home from work and done some more reading.
See if I could firm up some points.
Half Elf Bard seems amazing.
+2 to main stat.
+1 to 2 other stats
Darkvision.
2 extra skills.
3 Languages in total.

Human get the feat.
So as epic as that is - that's its

As half-elf I could go with:
Cha: 17
Dex: 15
Start with 5 skills (+2 from Background)

Still liking Lore Bard - Is this wrong?

[jaydubs]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Lore bard. It gets more magical secrets, has a more versatile inspiration, and has more skill proficiencies. Those are all really nice things.

The reason some people pick Valor, is that it eventually becomes one of the better archers in the game (assuming feats), while still keeping lots of casting/utility/support. The Lore bard does this latter part better, but the Valor bard is still far, far above average in this respect.

At the end of the day, one isn't just outright superior to the other. The question is, which of those aspects is more important to your character concept?

[Praystation]

I don't have a set style to play to - I am pretty adaptive and in past games have played a varied range of guys.
I would like to support from behind the front rank but not be completely useless.
I figure I have some damage spells I can throw out, even a cantrip (vicious mockery)
And not to mention on top of that there are simple weapons and hand crossbows available (sometime in the future)

Aside from the in combat abilities I seem to be able to cover the out of combat stuff very well.
I have a big chunk of skills already, I get more at level 3. I can assist the group with Bardic Inspiration at 1, Song of Rest at 2.

It sounds to me like it is useful.
Guess I was looking for idea's or agreement to confirm my thoughts.

[MaxWilson]

I got home from work and done some more reading.
See if I could firm up some points.
Half Elf Bard seems amazing.
+2 to main stat.
+1 to 2 other stats
Darkvision.
2 extra skills.
3 Languages in total.

Human get the feat.
So as epic as that is - that's its


It seems a bit unfair to list +stats and skills for half-elf and not mention that the human also gets a free skill and some stats.

Edit: fixed typo.

[jaydubs]

A half elf Lore bard should be quite useful to most parties. In terms of dump stats, probably either strength or intelligence. Charisma is your primary stat, dex is your secondary. Con is an important save, and affects your HP total. Wisdom is an important save, and affects skills like perception and insight. Between strength and intelligence, pick whichever one effects more of the skills you want to focus on, and dump the other.

As has been mentioned, unless you poach spells to address it, most of that usefulness will be something other than damage. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but for some people can be less fun to play.

[Praystation]

Yeah I recall a few people saying the best way to get some early damage was warlock cantrips.
Got me wondering though.
If I went Human
Main stats would be 16 and 15.
Feat - Magic Initiate
Cantrips - Warlock - Eldritch Blast - Haven't they also got some useful little shield spell too?

Talking of dump stats - I have an 8 and a 10 so not likely to be great in two area's.
Thinking Str and Int are gonna take a hit. Most likely dump str and take a hit on Int.
I always feel a bard should be a little smart.

Not sure that overshadows anything but yeah....

And as rightly pointed out, I did miss out alot with the human, +1 to two stats. Feat. 1 Skill. But I mentioned their main draw. FEAT!!

[Ashrym]

Yeah I recall a few people saying the best way to get some early damage was warlock cantrips.
Got me wondering though.
If I went Human
Main stats would be 16 and 15.
Feat - Magic Initiate
Cantrips - Warlock - Eldritch Blast - Haven't they also got some useful little shield spell too?

Talking of dump stats - I have an 8 and a 10 so not likely to be great in two area's.
Thinking Str and Int are gonna take a hit. Most likely dump str and take a hit on Int.
I always feel a bard should be a little smart.

Not sure that overshadows anything but yeah....

And as rightly pointed out, I did miss out alot with the human, +1 to two stats. Feat. 1 Skill. But I mentioned their main draw. FEAT!!

Multiple attacks is the best way for early damage. Dual wielding short swords or using a crossbow does more damage than cantrips do. People mention warlock for the agonizing blast invocation to go with eldritch blast, and that requires multiclassing and something you clearly didn't want to do. d10+nothing isn't a lot of damage. At 5th level it's still only 11 damage on average before looking at accuracy. A valor bard does that just throwing daggers with multiple attacks and a +3 ability modifier bonus.

If you really want ranged damage then the way to go would be the valor bard for extra attack and martial weapon proficiency, spend the feat on sharpshooter instead, and add swift quiver using magical secrets at 10th level. If you ever get high enough level then use foresight at 17th level. That's going to give much better ranged damage than what the lore bard brings with a damage cantrip.

4d10, even with hex up, at full progression is 36 damage before accuracy. 4(d8+15) is 78 damage before accuracy and foresight is helping maintain that accuracy. The valor bard can afford to drop DEX from 20 to 16 and still come out ahead.

I would also like to point out that combat inspiration gives the inspired individuals more versatility and options with their superiority dice over what a lore bard offers. I agree cutting words is generally better than combat inspiration but it does still require a reaction, is limited by CHA modifier, requires being heard and within 60 ft, and also requires that the target is not immune to charm. Combat inspiration doesn't have those restrictions and can be pre-buffed.

How many skills do you really need? Athletics, stealth, investigation, insight, perception, survival, deception, and persuasion generally cover the important ones and jack-of-all-trades applies to whichever one you could cut back on a couple points of bonus.


Having said all that, you still might enjoy the lore bard more. I prefer the lore bard myself, but what I'm doing is giving up damage for small situational bonuses in the skills and either giving up a feat or taking an AC hit. The additional magical secrets is nice because it comes early when spells known are limited but it's only a small number of extra low level spells in the larger picture later, and cutting words and peerless skill seem nice but are still on a very limited resource so a person needs to be careful with them while battle magic and extra attack are nothing but bonus attacks without such resource management. The lore bard's significant benefit is in manipulating dice rolls on that limited basis and can make a critical difference at the right time, but due to it's limited nature it's another situational ability that we're choosing over common abilities is more attacks.

Hopefully that helps in understanding the differences, and in understanding the damage.

[Praystation]

It certainly does clear up and explain pretty well how each class can operative within the structures mentioned.

What it doesnt do is make my choice any easier :smallfrown:

I was close to Ranger before plumping for Bard.
Maybe i should just go Ranger - pick up a background with thieves tools - take my three skills and race plusses.
Choose between a 17 and 15 stat (plus several others inc Perception skill) from a Wood Elf or get a 16 and 15 stat (plus several others including 1 extra skill) and a feat from Human.

Damage is certainly ncie from a Ranger at earlier levels as discussed in another thread.

When does the Bard start to outstrip the Ranger?
In combat and out of combat as i expect they are vastly different.

[Uldric]

When does the Bard start to outstrip the Ranger?
In combat and out of combat as i expect they are vastly different.

The Bard outstrips the Ranger in damage at level 10 but only for those battles for which you cast swift quiver.

Depending on the rest of the party brings to the table the buffing, control, and debuffing is better for the Bard than damage unless the Mobs have Magic Resistance. Even then you can cast things like Contagion (which competes with swift quiver for a Level 5 spell slot). Using Slimy Doom cancels out the advantage of Magic Resistance and as long as someone is able to do some damage the Mob is stunned for at least three rounds.

[Praystation]

Our games rarely extend past level 10 so i am thinking it might run out of steam prior to the high level spells.

Might be worthwhile taking Ranger.
We have a pretty diverse party so i figured a Bard is always the ideal 5th man.
But if I look at our make up i need to fill that ranged void so damage is gonna be a big help, especially in those early days.

If i take the extra 1d8 dmg ability at level 3
The extra 1d6 spell at level 2.
I have 3 skills i can take.
2 from background - just take one with thieves tools.
Get an extra 1 from Race (Human or Elf Perception)

Or just stick with the Rogue who just seemed a little lacklustre at Level 1 (yeah i gave him a fighting chance huh?)
He can use a bow at 1D6, he gets Sneak Attack as often as possible for an additional 1D6.
Soon as i get Longbow i will crank that to 1D8+1D6 (Elf prof with Longbow)

[Uldric]

Yeah, without access to fighting style or taking +dex ability score increases the Valor Bard's damage is still poor before level 10 even with the extra attack.

[Praystation]

Guess its a choice to look at Rogue and Ranger again.
Bard will be a look at when the game is due to go on for longer levels i guess.
Or when we are in need of that support class.
Skills are needed but support - not so much.

Any view on Rogue vs Ranger?