Best deity for my cleric

[RoboEmperor]

It seems every single one of my problems I have with wizards is solved by simply going cleric. No ASF, better buffs, all the proficiencies I want, etc, but the only thing that is keeping me from being a cleric is that I don't want my PC to be some deity's slave. Wizards are badass, they can do what they want, whenever they want like control demon armies, etc. but clerics... if they piss their deity off and suddenly they become a worthless being that is barely stronger than a peasant.

I like summons, buffs, and armor so domains aren't really important to me but, what deities let you do whatever the %#(* you want?

FYI my wizard PC was going to be a badass who walks around with a large demonic escort and just slaughters everyone and everything who gets in his way, so my cleric PC in turn would be a badass who walks around with an undead escort but no good or neutral deity allows undead and any evil deity has an attitude of "SERVE ME OR DIE" so... help? :(

P.S. My character isn't "evil" as in actively trying to destroy/torture/etc, but isn't good either. He/she is more evil than neutral because of the demons/undead/etc but is very passive. Won't hurt/kill anyone without a reason but if said person has something he/she wants, then he/she will kill without hesitation.

[Azoth]

Clerics can worship ideals instead of a patron diety. This decision is reflected in their domains. So grab two you like that you can BS a relationship between and roll with them.

Basically your power comes from the strong belief in the concepts represented by your domain. So as long as you act in accordance with them no loss of power and no being the whipping boy of a diety.

[RoboEmperor]

Clerics can worship ideals instead of a patron diety. This decision is reflected in their domains. So grab two you like that you can BS a relationship between and roll with them.

Basically your power comes from the strong belief in the concepts represented by your domain. So as long as you act in accordance with them no loss of power and no being the whipping boy of a diety.

I've read about this but couldn't find any detailed information on this. All I could find were "clerics who don't devote themselves to a particular deity..."

Deities give worshipers divine spells, but for clerics without deities, is it... um... their faith gives them magical powers?

I've also read that deityless clerics are a common conflict v.s. DMs, so it would also be nice to have a deity to fall back on against such stubborn DMs.

[avr]

In case your DM disapproves of clerics without deities - what world are you in? Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion (PF) etc.

Also you might consider an Archivist rather than a Cleric for the more wizardly feel and greater removal from a deity, if you're playing D&D 3.5.

[RoboEmperor]

In case your DM disapproves of clerics without deities - what world are you in? Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion (PF) etc.

Also you might consider an Archivist rather than a Cleric for the more wizardly feel and greater removal from a deity, if you're playing D&D 3.5.

I remember a DM telling a cleric player he has to have a cleric because he feels it's unnatural. Clerics get magic from gods, no god = no magic. You can't argue with these DMs.

I've heard bad things about archivist, mainly about how stupidly OP they are XD. But yeah! Archivists fit the bill much better than clerics for me! Especially the artifact hunting bit. I'll go archivist if it's not banned or unavailable as a LOT of DMs ban new base classes >.<. Maybe I have bad luck. Anyways, another point for archivist for being intelligence based! Wisdom is my least favorite stat roleplay wise.

As for the original topic, it seems Red Knight fits the bill most closely but I can't be neutral evil, and it's still a worship.

Could someone elaborate on the deityless cleric or at least point me to which books detail that information? How does a deityless cleric get his divine power?

[Phelix-Mu]

Some deities allow for some pretty free-spirited clergy, as well. Within limits, of course, but all power comes at a price. Many DMs aren't too heavy-handed with the role play requirement, as well. Kord, Olidammara, Ehlonna all have a really wide range of followers, and Wee Jas and Boccob aren't far behind. There are some rules, but unless the DM has your superiors in the church breathing down your neck, most gods are pretty hands-off. Really, the only thing you need to be worried about is alignment change, and that is very easy to avoid (generally speaking).

[avr]

Clerics without a deity? In the PHB, under the class description. "If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains ..."

It sounds like your game is set in the Forgotten Realms - the Red Knight is a deity there IIRC? - & while I don't know the deities there well enough to recommend one I do remember that FR has many, many gods and I'm sure one of them can help.

[RoboEmperor]

Some deities allow for some pretty free-spirited clergy, as well. Within limits, of course, but all power comes at a price. Many DMs aren't too heavy-handed with the role play requirement, as well. Kord, Olidammara, Ehlonna all have a really wide range of followers, and Wee Jas and Boccob aren't far behind. There are some rules, but unless the DM has your superiors in the church breathing down your neck, most gods are pretty hands-off. Really, the only thing you need to be worried about is alignment change, and that is very easy to avoid (generally speaking).

I take my roleplay very seriously even if my DM doesn't XD. I wanna be immersed in the game instead of just playing it.

Boccob is perfect! I'll pick him. Thanks! He also gives sort of a mercenary feel. Get new knowledge and share it and in return I give you magic. Sharing part bothers me. "Wee Jas expects obedience" so... blehhh.
The other deities you mentioned seem out of character for my character.

So anyone got a better candidate than boccob? XD

[Curmudgeon]

The advantage of being deityless is flexibility: you have 8 choices for alignment and 160+ domains available.

The disadvantage is you can't be Neutral unless your deity is Neutral, and you lose various options (spells, initiate feats, the War domain) where they specifically refer to properties of "your deity".

[BaronDoctor]

I take my roleplay very seriously even if my DM doesn't XD. I wanna be immersed in the game instead of just playing it.

Boccob is perfect! I'll pick him. Thanks! He also gives sort of a mercenary feel. Get new knowledge and share it and in return I give you magic. Sharing part bothers me. "Wee Jas expects obedience" so... blehhh.
The other deities you mentioned seem out of character for my character.

So anyone got a better candidate than boccob? XD

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Oghma gets my vote. Alternatively http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Deneir
Really, any knowledge god is good.

[Pyron]

P.S. My character isn't "evil" as in actively trying to destroy/torture/etc, but isn't good either. He/she is more evil than neutral because of the demons/undead/etc but is very passive. Won't hurt/kill anyone without a reason but if said person has something he/she wants, then he/she will kill without hesitation.

My advice is would be to worship Velsharoon (http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Velsharoon.htm). His basic dogma is that true enlightenment lies within undeath, and his church seeks to unearth hidden necromancy-based secrets. He's neutral evil, but your character can be Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Nuetral, depending on your preference.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Worship a dead god, such as Amaunator, and take the feat Servant of the Fallen in Lost Empires of Faerun. You still gain spells and domain powers as though the deity were alive, and it's impossible to anger the unconscious divine remnant of a dead god.

[PraxisVetli]

Worship a dead god, such as Amaunator, and take the feat Servant of the Fallen in Lost Empires of Faerun. You still gain spells and domain powers as though the deity were alive, and it's impossible to anger the unconscious divine remnant of a dead god.

As ever, Biffoniacus only has good advice.
Plus, this is positively DRIPPING with RP value.

[RoboEmperor]

As ever, Biffoniacus only has good advice.
Plus, this is positively DRIPPING with RP value.

If only I wasn't incredibly short on feats >.<

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If only I wasn't incredibly short on feats >.<

Amaunator offers the Planning domain (Extend Spell), you can get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Aligned Devotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats, and be a Human for yet another feat. That's four general feats plus Extend Spell at 1st level, so with Servant of the Fallen you can still get Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent, and one more feat at 1st level. You could pick up the Sun domain and get Extra Turning to go into Radiant Servant of Pelor Amaunator if you want. Or you can get the Time domain for Improved Initiative, and spend that last feat on whatever you want.

[RoboEmperor]

Amaunator offers the Planning domain (Extend Spell), you can get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Aligned Devotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats, and be a Human for yet another feat. That's four general feats plus Extend Spell at 1st level, so with Servant of the Fallen you can still get Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent, and one more feat at 1st level. You could pick up the Sun domain and get Extra Turning to go into Radiant Servant of Pelor Amaunator if you want. Or you can get the Time domain for Improved Initiative, and spend that last feat on whatever you want.

PraxisVetli was right! You only have good advice! I am aware of flaws but I am also aware most DMs ban them XD. I was planning on getting extend spell so now I can replace it with that servant feat. Thanks!

[Andezzar]

Worship a dead god, such as Amaunator, and take the feat Servant of the Fallen in Lost Empires of Faerun. You still gain spells and domain powers as though the deity were alive, and it's impossible to anger the unconscious divine remnant of a dead god.That is until the DM follows the timeline or throws you a similar curveball and declares the deity alive again (Amaunator and Lathander are aspects of the same deity, whether Leira is actually dead is up to debate etc.).

Clerics do not only have to worry about changing alignment but also about grossly violating his deity's code of conduct.
Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).
The DM has guidelines for most of the published deities what their code of conduct should be. How strictly he will enforce it is a question to ask.

Another option for the DM is that your cleric might think that he is worshiping an ideal but in fact is worshiping a god, he just does not call it by its proper name. This is especially easy if the alignment and domain choices conform with an established deity.

If you are playing in the Forgotten Realms, not having a patron deity is actually a bad idea even though it is no longer forbidden for clerics as of 3.5.

[Spore]

Your character is LE despite your opening statement. Nuanced evil is still evil. Your character sounds like a tyrant (over life and death) so tyranny and death would be great domains for your fluff.

[RoboEmperor]

Your character is LE despite your opening statement. Nuanced evil is still evil. Your character sounds like a tyrant (over life and death) so tyranny and death would be great domains for your fluff.

I don't think he's lawful evil because he isn't compelled to do evil. He just gets what he wants using any means necessary, but if there's nothing of interest in the region, he just quietly leaves. So like he's a mercenary who doesn't restrict himself with morals, but doesn't do anything evil without a reason. Neutral evil is getting away with what you can. My character is not a leader but a loner so not a tyrant. He has 8 charisma ffs XD.

[Andezzar]

(Nearly) no character is compelled to do evil. They just do or don't. Whether there is conscious thought about what they are doing and why, does not matter much. A character regularly committing evil deeds is evil, a character not regularly committing evil deeds is not. Where the threshold of evil deeds/time is lies with each DM.

[Red Fel]

(Nearly) no character is compelled to do evil. They just do or don't. Whether there is conscious thought about what they are doing and why, does not matter much. A character regularly committing evil deeds is evil, a character not regularly committing evil deeds is not. Where the threshold of evil deeds/time is lies with each DM.

This. "By any means necessary" is the hallmark of non-Good alignments. A willingness to achieve your goals at the expense of others is the hallmark of Evil alignments. "If you have what I want, give it to me or I will kill you" is an Evil indicator. A lack of compulsion to be blindly, stupidly Evil doesn't mean you're non-Evil, it just means you're savvy.

[RoboEmperor]

This. "By any means necessary" is the hallmark of non-Good alignments. A willingness to achieve your goals at the expense of others is the hallmark of Evil alignments. "If you have what I want, give it to me or I will kill you" is an Evil indicator. A lack of compulsion to be blindly, stupidly Evil doesn't mean you're non-Evil, it just means you're savvy.

Yeah this further solidifies my character is evil, not true neutral. He doesn't necessary obey or disobey laws, why I think he's neutral evil not lawful. Only reason why I'd say he's true neutral is not many things would get him to be evil. Only something essential to complete a quest or some immense artifact would solicit such a behavior from him.

[Red Fel]

Yeah this further solidifies my character is evil, not true neutral. He doesn't necessary obey or disobey laws, why I think he's neutral evil not lawful. Only reason why I'd say he's true neutral is not many things would get him to be evil. Only something essential to complete a quest or some immense artifact would solicit such a behavior from him.

One of the simpler ways to examine this is the "pinch" test: In a pinch, what sort of behavior is your character's default? Here's an example: The party is pinned down and under fire. Is your character more likely to: Provide cover so that the party can safely escape? Scramble to safety and let the others fend for themselves? Toss an ally into the fray to act as an involuntary decoy while your character makes his escape?The first is a selfless act, and traditionally (but not universally) associated with Good. The second is a pragmatic and selfish act, and traditionally (but not universally) associated with Neutral. The third is a selfish at the expense of others act, and traditionally associated with Evil. (I won't say "not universally," because sacrificing an ally is pretty darn Evil.)

Here's the point: The fact that he does not often face a situation that triggers his Evil instinct doesn't mean he doesn't have it. The question is whether, when faced with a pressing situation, he will act in a Good, Neutral, or Evil way. The fact that he isn't often faced with a situation requiring him to do Evil doesn't mean it isn't his default.

As for Lawful, that alignment has little to do with obeying or ignoring local laws, and more to do with obeying a personal code of conduct, showing respect for authority, and having honor (of some sort). That said, a deity that lets you do "whatever the %#(* you want" is more likely to be Chaotic or Neutral than Lawful, and your description ("will kill without hesitation" someone who "has something he/she wants") suggests a more Chaotic mindset.

I'd suggest Nerull, frankly. Neutral Evil. He doesn't care so much about what you do, as long as it involves killing. Nerull's clergy see every living thing as an abomination. Nerull wants you to do the most Evil for your own benefit. He doesn't care if it's for honor or freedom, for love or vengeance, all he cares about is that you make a lot of people all kinds of dead. Frankly, Nerull doesn't even demand that you serve him - you're alive, and therefore you disgust him and he'll kill you himself one day. For now, just kill people and he'll be moderately satisfied with that.

[RoboEmperor]

In that pinch test you described... he'd do #2 with some sort of teleport or ethereal spell/item. If he absolutely cannot escape on his own, then he'd do #3. The most "good" he'll do is maybe summon a monster to act as a decoy, or let other party members join him in his teleport attempt, but absolutely will not wait even for a second if another party member is out of range of the group teleport.