Repeating monk 2

[Lans]

If using the fractional BAB and Saves, would letting a player repeat monk 2 with different variants and choices actually make the class better? Maybe upping it a tier even?

This could apply to the fighter as well, with the first 2 levels being better than the next 2.

[Just to Browse]

It would not.

[Lans]

It would not.

Why do you say that?

[Extra Anchovies]

Why do you say that?

Two bonus feats isn't enough to boost a class up an entire tier. The main separation between the tiers lies in the scope of a class's abilities, rather than their power; a sorcerer may be able to spam more than a wizard, but the wizard can (with proper divination) prepare exactly the right spells for the day's challenges, and is thus a higher tier. Fighter can (sorta) whomp ass in melee, but Swordsage can mostly keep up damage-wise also teleport and shoot fire out of their hands, and is thus a higher tier. More combat feats may increase a combat character's power, but it won't increase their versatility.

[KingSmitty]

it would make the class better sure, but not enough to go up a tier.

[WhamBamSam]

Repeating Martial Monk 2 might get you up to T4, assuming your unarmed damage, ac bonus, and maybe speed bonus progressed normally. If you buy the Epic Fighter Feats interpetation (which I don't) then probably T3.

[KillianHawkeye]

You can't multiclass different versions of the same class, so the question is moot anyways.

[Chaosvii7]

You can't multiclass different versions of the same class, so the question is moot anyways.

We know. OP said if you could, implying a hypothetical situation in which your DM allows you to take the first two levels of monk over and over again.

[Seppo87]

It would make the class very strong. People saying it wouldn't aren't familiar enough with monk, its variants, and building melee characters in general.

[ranagrande]

That's not actually a rule anyway. In Unearthed Arcana under "Multiclassing and Variant Classes" it just says that it's a DM call.

[sideswipe]

it would be a good tool to use if you were building a combat manipulation character.

take it twice to get grapple stuff
twice for trip stuff
again for the other things

so it would give a tonne of feats. and in some respects if the right feats were taken then its overall versatility could increase.

but the tier system is not about builds, its about the class. and the class isn't better, just its optimisation potential.

[emeraldstreak]

It would make the class very strong. People saying it wouldn't aren't familiar enough with monk, its variants, and building melee characters in general.

True, but even the best monk ACFs and the most cheese-out readings of unarmed strike can't go higher than t3. Going higher than that is more about reality-bending than combat prowess.

[Lans]

Two bonus feats isn't enough to boost a class up an entire tier. The main separation between the tiers lies in the scope of a class's abilities, rather than their power; a sorcerer may be able to spam more than a wizard, but the wizard can (with proper divination) prepare exactly the right spells for the day's challenges, and is thus a higher tier. Fighter can (sorta) whomp ass in melee, but Swordsage can mostly keep up damage-wise also teleport and shoot fire out of their hands, and is thus a higher tier. More combat feats may increase a combat character's power, but it won't increase their versatility.

Why not? Your looking at the ability to get weapon supremacy, pounce, and shocktrooper. Compare it to the barbarian and I imagine its going to compare pretty well, expecially when your looking at a full attack on a charge vs the barbarian's 1. Then your looking at getting things like invisible fist and feign death for more defense options. Then add in skirmish and sneak attack





but the tier system is not about builds, its about the class. and the class isn't better, just its optimisation potential.

Why isn't a class that can retake its best 2 levels not better than one that can't

[Extra Anchovies]

Why not? Your looking at the ability to get weapon supremacy, pounce, and shocktrooper. Compare it to the barbarian and I imagine its going to compare pretty well, expecially when your looking at a full attack on a charge vs the barbarian's 1. Then your looking at getting things like invisible fist and feign death for more defense options. Then add in skirmish and sneak attack

What feat gives you pounce? And barbarian gets full attack on a charge too.

[Lans]

What feat gives you pounce? And barbarian gets full attack on a charge too.

Lion tribe berserker or something Ill find it in a minute. A barbaran doesn't unless you are using a variant. Which is fine, but the base barbarian is listed as T4, and is the bar that has to be beat. Unless, you believe the barbarian is really t5 and only its variants are t4

Edit-There are 2 feats, Lion tribe warrior, and snow tiger berserker

[Nettlekid]

Lion tribe berserker or something Ill find it in a minute. A barbaran doesn't unless you are using a variant. Which is fine, but the base barbarian is listed as T4, and is the bar that has to be beat. Unless you believe the barbarian is really t5 and only its variants are t4

I think Extra Anchovies was saying that because you were comparing Fighter to Barbarian, but listing Pounce as something you get, you were implying that Fighter could get you Pounce. Yeah, Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Fighter 2/Fighter 2 gets Pounce, but Fighter 2/Fighter 2/Fighter 2 doesn't. I might argue that Pounce is worth all those Fighter levels, and so Barbarian 1 is more influential to that build than all those Fighter 2s. Pounce is really good.

And I think you should look back over the tier list and really understand what tiers mean. Going up a tier isn't just "Is my character stronger." In fact, it's really not about damage or raw numbers of anything. It's about versatility. It's about doing lots and lots of things. I think many people would consider an Ubercharger Barbarian outright stronger than an Incarnate, but the Incarnate is a higher tier (usually considered low Tier 3) because it can change its skills bonuses, attack and damage options, buffing and debuffing, etc while the Ubercharger Barbarian really only has one choice. Similarly that's why the Wizard is a tier higher than the Sorcerer-they can have the same power level and look exactly the same at one point, but then the Wizard can completely change spell selection and be entirely different the next day while the Sorcerer stays the same. The Sorcerer can meet many different threats and encounters with well-chosen spells, but they won't be able to actually change if they meet something they didn't prepare for, unlike the Wizard.

So when you're talking about going up a tier, static things will almost never help you. "Getting more feats" won't help you go up a tier, because you'll still be the same old guy day to day. What I've heard suggested for making the Fighter go up a tier is letting them change all their Fighter Bonus Feats day to day, so they can go from being a THF powerhouse to a flurry of TWF to a champion archer, because they change the feat trees they have access to. You still won't be amazingly strong, but the increase in versatility might argue an increase in tier.

[Lans]

I think Extra Anchovies was saying that because you were comparing Fighter to Barbarian, but listing Pounce as something you get, you were implying that Fighter could get you Pounce. Yeah, Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Fighter 2/Fighter 2 gets Pounce, but Fighter 2/Fighter 2/Fighter 2 doesn't. I might argue that Pounce is worth all those Fighter levels, and so Barbarian 1 is more influential to that build than all those Fighter 2s. Pounce is really good..

I was looking at it as the monk not the fighter, but I'm sure an argument can be made for the fighter also


And I think you should look back over the tier list and really understand what tiers mean. Going up a tier isn't just "Is my character stronger." In fact, it's really not about damage or raw numbers of anything. It's about versatility. It's about doing lots and lots of things. I think many people would consider an Ubercharger Barbarian outright stronger than an Incarnate, but the Incarnate is a higher tier (usually considered low Tier 3) because it can change its skills bonuses, attack and damage options, buffing and debuffing, etc while the Ubercharger Barbarian really only has one choice. Similarly that's why the Wizard is a tier higher than the Sorcerer-they can have the same power level and look exactly the same at one point, but then the Wizard can completely change spell selection and be entirely different the next day while the Sorcerer stays the same. The Sorcerer can meet many different threats and encounters with well-chosen spells, but they won't be able to actually change if they meet something they didn't prepare for, unlike the Wizard.

So when you're talking about going up a tier, static things will almost never help you. "Getting more feats" won't help you go up a tier, because you'll still be the same old guy day to day. What I've heard suggested for making the Fighter go up a tier is letting them change all their Fighter Bonus Feats day to day, so they can go from being a THF powerhouse to a flurry of TWF to a champion archer, because they change the feat trees they have access to. You still won't be amazingly strong, but the increase in versatility might argue an increase in tier

More power is how you can go up to tiers 4 and 2. You might want check the tier list your self

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise,

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks... Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

[Nettlekid]

I was looking at it as the monk not the fighter, but I'm sure an argument can be made for the fighter also


You said

Your looking at the ability to get weapon supremacy, pounce, and shocktrooper. Compare it to the barbarian and I imagine its going to compare pretty well
How does the Monk get those three things? Even if you're talking about Martial Monk, where's the Pounce coming from? The feats you listed certainly don't give Pounce, one only allowing one additional attack with a light weapon and the other still limiting you to a light weapon and forcing you to be a Barbarian anyway.



More power is how you can go up to tiers 4 and 2. You might want check the tier list your self

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise,

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks... Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

That doesn't have anything to do with what you're saying. You're asking if giving either the Monk or the Fighter more ACFs or feats from a specific list in exchange for levels which could be spent in other classes could increase their tier. It's not going to increase their power level, because the class is the same class it was. The power level of the Fighter won't be substantially greater with 20 feats than it was with 10, because it's going to be as strong as the best feat chain in that list (probably that which gets you Shock Trooper, or perhaps a Jack B. Quick build.) So power level isn't a concern. So the only option afforded to it is variety from having more feats (putting Shock Trooper and Jack B. Quick together on one build, for example,) which certainly gives it more to do but still makes it inflexible on a day-to-day basis, which means it's not going to go up a tier in that respect either. So what are you trying to say?

Also, may I ask, what's your native language?

[emeraldstreak]

Similarly that's why the Wizard is a tier higher than the Sorcerer-they can have the same power level and look exactly the same at one point, but then the Wizard can completely change spell selection and be entirely different the next day while the Sorcerer stays the same.

Let's be honest here, the Sorcerer would look waaaay better.



On a more serious note, monks get some key stuff from wealth-by-level.

[Lans]

You said

How does the Monk get those three things? Even if you're talking about Martial Monk, where's the Pounce coming from? The feats you listed certainly don't give Pounce, one only allowing one additional attack with a light weapon and the other still limiting you to a light weapon and forcing you to be a Barbarian anyway.


They, both allowed a full attack with a light weapon, so pounce with the weapon monks are most likely to be using.


That doesn't have anything to do with what you're saying. You're asking if giving either the Monk or the Fighter more ACFs or feats from a specific list in exchange for levels which could be spent in other classes could increase their tier. It's not going to increase their power level, because the class is the same class it was. The power level of the Fighter won't be substantially greater with 20 feats than it was with 10, because it's going to be as strong as the best feat chain in that list (probably that which gets you Shock Trooper, or perhaps a Jack B. Quick build.) So power level isn't a concern. So the only option afforded to it is variety from having more feats (putting Shock Trooper and Jack B. Quick together on one build, for example,) which certainly gives it more to do but still makes it inflexible on a day-to-day basis, which means it's not going to go up a tier in that respect either. So what are you trying to say?

Your forgetting that bonus feats will let it grab other feats with his base level feats. If a melee character needs shocktrooper and leap attack to be competent, a fighter can have that and the fey heritage or binding feat lines. As well as getting access to other strong feat chains, like lockdown ,or boomerangs

Edit-As to being inflexible on a day to day basis, it would be less inflexible than the barbarian.

[emeraldstreak]

There are 2 feats, Lion tribe warrior, and snow tiger berserker

Both allow pounce for light weapons, one requires Rage CF though.

IMO the best theoretical damage build for a Monk would use a two-handed monk weapon with Scorpion quality, provided enough of the magic boosting the unarmed strike directly is rerouted to the weapon.

[Lans]

Both allow pounce for light weapons, one requires Rage CF though.

IMO the best theoretical damage build for a Monk would use a two-handed monk weapon with Scorpion quality, provided enough of the magic boosting the unarmed strike directly is rerouted to the weapon.
I was using martial monk to skip the prereqs.

What's the scorpion quality? Flurry, sets the strength modifier to damage to 1x strength, so keep that in mind.

[emeraldstreak]

I was using martial monk to skip the prereqs.

oh right


What's the scorpion quality? Flurry, sets the strength modifier to damage to 1x strength, so keep that in mind.

I do, but here's what I have in mind.

Ubercharger builds consist of two main parts, the base damage sum and the multipliers.

The base damage sum has three major components of high synergy:

- BAB to Power Attack
- Strength to Damage via many-armed wielding of two-handed weapon
- weapon damage dice

Unarmed strike easily wins the last one, while Frenzied Berserker wins the first one. The middle one is more neutral, but Monks do want to keep the unarmed strike damage dice. Here comes the Scorpion quality from MIC, allowing to transfer unarmed weapon damage dice to a two-handed monk weapon.

[Forrestfire]

Honestly, I think that 20 levels of Monk 1 and 2 would be high T4 at the very least, or low T3, depending.

How I'd do it:

Overwhelming Attack Monk 2 [Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush]/Wushu Style Raging Monk 1[Rage, Improved Initiative]/Martial Monk 1 and 2 for the next 17 levels.

You can grab Snow Tiger Berserker and use it with an Aptitude Greatsword, pick up the ubercharger feats, and all the useful Evasion ACFs for monk (mainly Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike, I guess). You've got enough prereq-less fighter bonus feats to get Weapon Supremacy (Unarmed Strike), the entire TWF line, and probably one or two other feat chains for good measure. Maybe get a secondary focus as a Spiked Chain lockdown build or use your feats to become decent-ish at ranged weapons. Grab Martial Study later down the line for some good maneuvers. Maybe skip the greatsword and use a greatclub or other two-handed bludgeoning weapon, then UMD some minor schemas of CL 20 Greater Mighty Wallop for extra damage dice.

What matters here, though, is that you've become an Ubercharger with a decent amount of out of combat from skills and your level-up feats. Not amazing, but decent enough. That's T4, at the very least. You can pull a Joker Monk and grab wands of wraithstrike, to make your day easier, or just use your various extra feats to match the attack bonus of a raging barbarian Ubercharger.

[Nettlekid]

They, both allowed a full attack with a light weapon, so pounce with the weapon monks are most likely to be using.


Lion Tribe Berserker allows a single extra attack with a light weapon, which is certainly not Pounce. It doesn't even give you your iteratives with your main weapon. The Snow Tiger Berserker really does let you make a full attack, but only with light weapons. And that's a bigger limitation than you're giving it credit for. Sure, a Monk build will likely be using unarmed strikes. But many builds will dip Monk 2 for feats (anything that needs Dodge and Mobility for sure), yet still be using a two-handed weapon.



Your forgetting that bonus feats will let it grab other feats with his base level feats. If a melee character needs shocktrooper and leap attack to be competent, a fighter can have that and the fey heritage or binding feat lines. As well as getting access to other strong feat chains, like lockdown ,or boomerangs

Edit-As to being inflexible on a day to day basis, it would be less inflexible than the barbarian.

I'm not forgetting that. I'm discounting it as a factor, because your initial question was "Is this change something that would bring classes up a tier" and so anything that the class could do before and after the change isn't something that bears looking at. Fighters have plenty of bonus feats already. Before your change, you might have a Fighter who has the Shock Trooper line who also picked up Fey Heritage or the Binding line. After your change, you have a Fighter who has the Shock Trooper line, the Robilar's Gambit line, and Fey Heritage or Binding. We would have to look at the change to the class to see if it was valid. The rest of the build doesn't matter because you're asking about changing the class. "If a Fighter gained two feats every level, would it go up a tier if the build was Fighter 1/Wizard 19" is also a poor comparison.

And I think you're still misunderstanding flexibility. If a Fighter can do both Ubercharging and archery then yeah, it's more flexible than a Barbarian who can just Ubercharge. But when I say day-to-day basis, I mean that the Fighter today can do the same things as the Fighter tomorrow, and the Fighter yesterday. It is inflexible from yesterday to today to tomorrow. The Barbarian is too. And the Sorcerer. That's what the lack of versatility means. The Wizard is able to Scry and Kill one day, blast the second, and summon legions of fiends the third. That's what versatility means.

[Curmudgeon]

I was using martial monk to skip the prereqs.
That doesn't give you anything useful. You can select any feat which is on the Fighter bonus list, but you cannot use that feat until you meet the prerequisites.

[emeraldstreak]

Lion Tribe Berserker allows a single extra attack with a light weapon, which is certainly not Pounce. It doesn't even give you your iteratives with your main weapon. The Snow Tiger Berserker really does let you make a full attack, but only with light weapons.

It does two things, one of which is pounce. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/shining-south--25/lion-tribe-warrior--1780/)

[Lans]

I'm not forgetting that. I'm discounting it as a factor, because your initial question was "Is this change something that would bring classes up a tier" and so anything that the class could do before and after the change isn't something that bears looking at. Fighters have plenty of bonus feats already. Before your change, you might have a Fighter who has the Shock Trooper line who also picked up Fey Heritage or the Binding line. After your change, you have a Fighter who has the Shock Trooper line, the Robilar's Gambit line, and Fey Heritage or Binding. We would have to look at the change to the class to see if it was valid. The rest of the build doesn't matter because you're asking about changing the class. "If a Fighter gained two feats every level, would it go up a tier if the build was Fighter 1/Wizard 19" is also a poor comparison.
Are you saying that giving the fighter more feats and access to its ACFs won't change its tier because the character could already do those tricks on different builds and adding them to the same build makes no difference


And I think you're still misunderstanding flexibility. If a Fighter can do both Ubercharging and archery then yeah, it's more flexible than a Barbarian who can just Ubercharge. But when I say day-to-day basis, I mean that the Fighter today can do the same things as the Fighter tomorrow, and the Fighter yesterday. It is inflexible from yesterday to today to tomorrow. The Barbarian is too. And the Sorcerer. That's what the lack of versatility means. The Wizard is able to Scry and Kill one day, blast the second, and summon legions of fiends the third. That's what versatility means.

I get that, I am failing to see how it matters to the case of raising the tier of a tier 5 character. Beguilers and DNs lack day to day versatility and Healers and magewrights have it.

[Feint's End]

I get that, I am failing to see how it matters to the case of raising the tier of a tier 5 character. Beguilers and DNs lack day to day versatility and Healers and magewrights have it.

A monk with described features is almost certainly t4 with some decent choices since now the damage will be good and pounce makes full attacks possible. Ergo you got yourself a t4 (good at one thing). raises to t4 are actually possible from a pure power perspective. You just won't get any higher with just that.

Also the jump from t3 to t2 is impossible in most cases. The power jaronk is talking about in the tier list is not about dealing thousands of damage or even teleportation. The power he is talking about is stuff like gate, wish/miracle, ice assassin, etc. You might get a t3 extremely powerful but you'll likely never be t2.

[Gwendol]

It does two things, one of which is pounce. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/shining-south--25/lion-tribe-warrior--1780/)

Sounds like a perfect option for a Monk then (IUS FTW!)

Not sure about the tier though, as I would need to see the progression first. So, the monk would not gain any other class features beside those gained the first two levels? Is the unarmed strike progression also stalled as are the penalties for flurry, etc?

[Lans]

Sounds like a perfect option for a Monk then (IUS FTW!)

Not sure about the tier though, as I would need to see the progression first. So, the monk would not gain any other class features beside those gained the first two levels? Is the unarmed strike progression also stalled as are the penalties for flurry, etc?

Let's say they progress as long as those abilities are chosen. So if you grab Decisive Strike for 2 of the levels your flurry will lag 2 levels. Same idea with the fast movement progression and unarmed strike

[OldTrees1]

A: Flurry of Blows, Decisive Strike, Flailing Strike, Rage 1/day
B: Bonus Monk Feat, Bonus Fighter Feat, Draconic Fist (class level/day), Soulwarp Strike (class level/day), (Aura of Courage + Turn Undead[paladin] + Smite Evil), Favored Enemy
C: Evasion, Feign Death, Spell Reflection, Invisible Fist

Monk 1st: Wis to AC + Unarmed Strike + one of A + one of B + You may use Stunning Fist on
Constructs + You may Critical with your Unarmed Strikes on Constructs
Monk 2nd: one of B + one of C


Martial Arts Schools(Dragon Mag 309 pg 65)


I would probably start with:
1st) Rage 1/day & Bonus Fighter Feat
2nd) Invisible Fist & Bonus Fighter Feat
1st) Decisive Strike & Bonus Fighter Feat
2nd) Spell Reflection & Bonus Fighter Feat
1st) Decisive Strike & Bonus Fighter Feat
2nd) Evasion & Bonus Fighter Feat

[Nettlekid]

It does two things, one of which is pounce. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/shining-south--25/lion-tribe-warrior--1780/)

Good lord, take a good long look at the feat, and then read Pounce, and realize they are not the same thing.

Pounce lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge. Full attack, period. That means that you can use your iterative attacks and all Two-Weapon Fighting attacks as well.

Lion Tribe Warrior allows you to either make a full attack at the end of a charge with a single light weapon, or make a single extra attack with a second light weapon. The latter example is clearly not Pounce, because it's just two attacks. But the first is also not Pounce because it doesn't give you the option of attacking with an offhand weapon either. And that's a key part to Pounce. Let alone the denial of two-handed weapons.

If you're building a Monk which isn't using TWF and so isn't making the most attacks it can, then Lion Tribe Warrior could look kind of like Pounce. But it is unequivocally worse than Pounce.

[Psyren]

For unarmed strike it might as well be, since it's not a 2HW and (in 3.5 at least) you can't TWF with it anyway.

[Nettlekid]

For unarmed strike it might as well be, since it's not a 2HW and (in 3.5 at least) you can't TWF with it anyway.

You can't TWF with Unarmed Strikes? Where does it say that? That would suck. But if you can fight with a weapon and an unarmed strike, and an unarmed strike counts as a weapon, I see no reason that you can't fight with an unarmed strike and an unarmed strike. These (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)rulings (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a) don't seem to preclude that.

And the whole point of this thread was asking if being allowed to take Monk 2 or Fighter 2 over and over would help a build. It's not likely you're actually making a Monk build out of Monk 2/Monk 2/Monk 2, but more likely you're using those bonus feats to improve a different build (perhaps a Master of Nine build, or maybe Jaunter/Telflammar Shadowlord, something like that.) Those are by no means going to be focused on unarmed strikes, so the earlier remark that you can get Pounce with feats is just not true. To refresh memories, the argument was that using Monk 2/Monk 2 or Fighter 2/Fighter 2 or Monk 2/Fighter 2 or something along those lines was equitable to taking levels in Barbarian because you can grab Weapon Supremacy, Pounce, and Shock Trooper, and someone remarked that you can't get Pounce with those.

[Curmudgeon]

You can't TWF with Unarmed Strikes? Where does it say that?

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. To have a second unarmed strike in your off hand, you would need a second body. You only get a single unarmed strike, which you wield using every possible striking surface of your body.

Here's the simple D&D test of whether you've got a second weapon in your off hand: can you spiff it up (with Magic Weapon or Align Weapon or some such) and give it different properties from your main hand weapon? If yes, it's a second weapon. If no, you've only got one weapon.

[Nettlekid]

To have a second unarmed strike in your off hand, you would need a second body. You only get a single unarmed strike, which you wield using every possible striking surface of your body.

Here's the simple D&D test of whether you've got a second weapon in your off hand: can you spiff it up (with Magic Weapon or Align Weapon or some such) and give it different properties from your main hand weapon? If yes, it's a second weapon. If no, you've only got one weapon.

Alright then, how about if you wear a Ward Cestus on each hand which can be enchanted separately, yet use your unarmed strike damage? Boom, two-weapon fighting with attacks that use your unarmed strike damage and count as unarmed strike.

[Curmudgeon]

Alright then, how about if you wear a Ward Cestus on each hand which can be enchanted separately, yet use your unarmed strike damage? Boom, two-weapon fighting with attacks that use your unarmed strike damage and count as unarmed strike.
You mean the exotic Tiny weapon, a 3.0 weapon size convention which doesn't exist in D&D 3.5? You don't get anything for that in a 3.5 game except after individual DM adjustment, with unknown results.

[Nettlekid]

You mean the exotic Tiny weapon, a 3.0 weapon size convention which doesn't exist in D&D 3.5? You don't get anything for that in a 3.5 game except after individual DM adjustment, with unknown results.

Fair enough, even though it seems perfectly within 3.5 rules to make a Medium-size version of a Tiny weapon. But regardless.

How about then the Kensai, which describe imbuing natural weapons it has?


Imbuing Natural Weapons: The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same as for a manufactured weapon, except all of the kensai's natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost + 10% per natural weapon. For example, a human kensai who has Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost. A six-armed kensai with a bite and tail attack would have to choose between fists, bite, and tail and pay either 160% of the cost (for six fists) or 110% of the cost (for the single bite or tail). A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists). It takes 24 hours for a kensai to imbue one type of natural weapon, regardless of how many actual weapons of that type he possesses.

It makes mention that if you have more than one of the same type of natural weapon, increase the XP cost by 10% per natural weapon. The example given is a human Kensai with Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) imbuing his fists, costing 120% the normal XP for imbuing. This is because he has two fists, two natural weapons being imbued. He has two natural weapons, two unarmed strikes. It goes on to say that he must imbue all natural weapons of that type, and specifically states that the human Kensai with two fists must imbue both fists. That means he has two natural weapons. Both fists.

I anticipate you arguing that the Monk description states that any part of their body may be used in an unarmed strike, and so to follow with the Kensai ruling then every part of their body must be imbued. This could mean that each individual part must be imbued (beyond just fists, to elbows and knees and feet and arguably every single hair) and so if that's the case then it would be more right to say that the Monk has as many natural attacks as hairs on their head. Or that could be read as "their whole body" counts as one weapon, which still contradicts the Kensai reading of each fist counting as a separate weapon, but if that's as pedantic as we're getting then it means the Monk alone is hindered by this and any other unarmed strike warrior is free to two-weapon fight with both fists, as the "any part of your body may be used" allowance is given only to Monks and no other users of Improved Unarmed Strike. Which means two-weapon fighting is allowed for any non-Monk user of Improved Unarmed Strike, by that reading. (And any Human Monk with Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and levels in Kensai, as specific trumps general and Kensai specifically states a Human with Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) has two natural weapons, their fists.)

[Curmudgeon]

You can't extrapolate a general rule from Kensai-specific requirements any more than you can figure out the value of natural weapon enhancements from the price of an Amulet of Mighty Fists. They're unique game elements with no explanation for how the designers were thinking (other than a general "unarmed strikes are powerful and thus must be made expensive to augment" idea).

[Feint's End]

The fact is this argument has gotten on for ages and wotc itself has used good amounts of contradicting material (sometimes they really don't know their own rules). even from their FAQ entries it's not entirely clear.

I can see reason for both sides so better stay out of this one.

[Lans]

Good lord, take a good long look at the feat, and then read Pounce, and realize they are not the same thing.

Pounce lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge. Full attack, period. That means that you can use your iterative attacks and all Two-Weapon Fighting attacks as well.

Lion Tribe Warrior allows you to either make a full attack at the end of a charge with a single light weapon, or make a single extra attack with a second light weapon. The latter example is clearly not Pounce, because it's just two attacks. But the first is also not Pounce because it doesn't give you the option of attacking with an offhand weapon either. And that's a key part to Pounce. Let alone the denial of two-handed weapons.
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Yeah, I'm going to keep calling it pounce. Its a pounce with a limitation, but its still pounce to me.