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View Full Version : Optimization In Which I Attempt to Make the Kind of Speedy, Finesse-y Warrior That Is Hard to Make



Gnome Alone
2014-10-18, 11:53 PM
Ahoy-hoy. I recently made a high mobility TWF Swordsage. I sent my brother an email about it, cuz he's one of the few people I know (who aren't you scholarly gentlefolk) who can tolerate nerding the fudge out talking about the specifics of D&D characters. He shares with me an interest in fast/roguish/skirmishy characters so it's not quite as unbearable as it sounds.

Anyway, I was gonna do a separate write-up to post here, but then I realized that my email letter did a pretty good job of explaining my reasoning. So I'm just posting it here as is. The only thing that's kinda weird is it explains a lot of stuff about Tome of Battle and certain feats, cuz otherwise it'd've been pretty gibberishy to him, but oh well. Guess you could use that to tell me if I've got anything wrong.

If anyone's got any ideas to improve this or where to go with it later (it stops at Level 12), feel free. But I mainly wanted to post a build I was not embarrassed about. Been a long hike up the opt-fu hill since my Fighter/Duskblade with Quick Draw and Power Critical. Btw this is my first Tome of Battle-heavy character, not counting a 4th level hobgoblin samurai Warblade I used as an NPC in an E6 campaign.

Without further much ado about nothing, here ya go:

In my heart of hearts, this is a Scottish goblin ninja air pirate, but we'll see.

Gloamingbell Glass

Small Female TN Air Goblin (-2 STR, +4 DEX, -2 CON) Speed 30 ft.

STR 10
DEX 20
CON 14 (12 at 1st level; +1 at 4th and 8th level)
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

1. Swordsage - Shadow Blade (1)
{Child of Shadow [Stance], Shadow Blade Technique, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap}

She gets the crucial Shadow Blade feat, which allows her to add her DEX mod to damage when wielding weapons from the Shadow Hand school. (In this case, a short sword.)

The stance grants 20% concealment, SBT means roll 2d20 instead of 1, WS is a +10 ft. speed boost, MoPM replaces WILL saves with a Concentration check, SNB uses a Concentration check to flat-foot an opponent before an attack, WFS allows an attack with two weapons after a move, SL uses a Jump check to move as a swift action.

2. Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse (B)
Let's get BAB, a FORT save, and DEX to hit. Now she can actually hit things with that short sword.

3. Thug Fighter - Adaptive Style (3), Two Weapon Fighting (B)
Let's make that TWO short swords. Adaptive Style changes the swordsage's recovery mechanic from a full-round action to refresh a maneuver to a full-round action to refresh all maneuvers and switch them if needed.

4. Swordsage
{Hunter's Sense [Stance], Cloak of Deception, Emerald Razor}

The stance grants Scent, CoD is a boost that gives greater invisibility until the end of your turn, ER turns a melee attack into a touch attack. This is also the level that the Swordsage steals the Monk's WIS to AC feature just to piss him off. And she can still wear light armor, snork snork snork.

5. Swordsage
{Shadow Jaunt}

Teleports 50 ft. through shadows as a standard action.
This level does not get a whole lot, but it's the calm before the storm.

6. Swordsage - Travel Devotion (6)
{Assassin's Stance [Stance], Soaring Raptor Strike, Mountain Hammer <drop Shadow Blade Technique>}

The stance grants +2d6 Sneak Attack, SRS uses a Jump check with DC as target's AC to land on a larger opponent (hey, good thing I'm Small, aheh heh heh) with +4 to attack and +6d6 damage. MH deals 2d6 damage and automatically overcomes DR. (Basically I just want it so I can hack through walls. Suppose I'll have to do some kinda homage to the Avatar episode "Bitter Work" since my queen of air and darkness here is learning an Earthending move.) Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action for one minute, once per day. It is good.

7. Thug Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting (B)
Hilariously, this finally get an iterative attack (BAB +6/+1) at the same time as taking ITWF, so all of a sudden she's doing two extra attacks on a full attack, which she's getting more often because of Travel Devotion. It's also worth noting that with all this multiclassing into Mr. Fight-Fight classes, her FORT save is actually pretty good, which is one of the reasons I feel comfortable having 12 CON; her HP might be a little lower (though it'll be nice rolling those 3d10 she'll get in her stabbiteering career) but she'll have a good FORT save and high AC from her ridiculous DEX, plus WIS to AC thing, and being Small for good measure.

8. Cleric - Domains: Travel, Air (traded for Air Devotion)

It's, uh, a traditional philosophical perspective amongst air goblins. Our services are conducted with wands of Bull's Strength. Which we can use now. Air Devotion trades the Air Domain for a 50% concealment 1 min./day deal. Travel Domain will only ever grant Longstrider, but that is perfectly fine by my fair goblin lady who makes lots of Jump checks. The two turn attempts (only two, cuz we're such a charming snot) will only, only ever be used to power another use of Travel Devotion. Also, the two ability score increases into CON pay off at this point and now she's got a goodly chunk more HP.

9. Swordsage - Gloom Razor (9)
{Hand of Death, Ruby Nightmare Blade}

Gloom Razor gives three different options based on concealment and they're all complicated so if you wanna know, look it up. Yes, I know you don't wanna look it up. Yes, I know you didn't really wanna see this anyway. Thank you for reading this far if you've read this far.
HoD paralyzes for 1d3 rounds with a DC 14+WIS mod WILL save. RNB does that Concentration check thing and then does double damage.

10. Swordsage
{Death From Above}

DC 20 Jump check to leap through the air and strike downward for +4d6 as we pass by. Opponent is considered flat-footed.

11. Swordsage
{Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose <drop Wolf Fang Strike>}

DM is a boost that gives an extra attack with each weapon wielded (at the highest attack bonus.) PC is a strike that allows a charging move and then a full-round attack action. You might see where this is going: boost (a swift action, btw) with Dancing Mongoose and then initiate Pouncing Charge to run up to someone and attack them six times. Time to pile on a bunch of weapon enhancements and kill everything that moves, has moved, might move, or has thought about moving.

12. Swordsage - Extra Turning (12)
{Step of the Dancing Moth [Stance], Shadow Stride}

Stance let's her walk 5 ft. above the ground at a speed of 20 ft. SS teleports 50 ft. through shadows as a move action. Extra Turning means Travel Devotion can be activated two more times a day, so basically I can just move wherever I want forever now.

Haven't planned it out any higher cuz I'm not sure what to take for the rest of the maneuvers and stances, and have no idea about the last two feats - funny considering how I went out of my way to cram in bonus ones early on. But the whole build so far is supposed to be reasonably viable the whole way through so we needed those featses then, preciousss.

Btw, am I wrong, or would this play a little bit like Belkar? Pint-sized TWFing blender descending from the sky 'n all.

--Ok, this is me again. Or, this is me writing just for the forum again. That was the end of the letter. Try to pay attention, geez. Just adding in an addendum that my inspiration for this in the first place was not so much Belkar as Mildmay the Fox from Sarah Monette's Doctrine of Labyrinths series. Planning on making Glass here be someone who used to be an assassin but feels bad about it. We now return to our regularly scheduled whatever it is we're doing.

Fax Celestis
2014-10-19, 11:12 AM
Why Thug Fighter? That does however open the door for Hit-n-Run Fighter (DotU; loses heavy and medium armor proficiencies, but gives +2 init and Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents), which would mesh well here. I'm not entirely convinced you wouldn't be better served with Thug Hit-n-Run Fighter 1/Ferocity Barbarian 1 instead. Ferocity is in the Cityscape web enhancement, and it replaces rage with ferocity, which gives +4 Str/Dex, an AC bonus, and can be entered as an immediate action. AYDM if Extra Rage will give you extra ferocity uses: no reason it shouldn't, but sometimes you'll get a no. Still, ferocity's bonus coupled with HnR will give Shadow Blade an extra oomph. Dex to damage with finesse weapons, doubled against flatfooted opponents, and ferocity's stat bonuses translate to basically +4 normal/+6 flat-foot damage, which multiply on a crit.

Jeff the Green
2014-10-19, 11:51 AM
Why Thug Fighter? That does however open the door for Hit-n-Run Fighter (DotU; loses heavy and medium armor proficiencies, but gives +2 init and Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents), which would mesh well here. I'm not entirely convinced you wouldn't be better served with Thug Hit-n-Run Fighter 1/Ferocity Barbarian 1 instead. Ferocity is in the Cityscape web enhancement, and it replaces rage with ferocity, which gives +4 Str/Dex, an AC bonus, and can be entered as an immediate action. AYDM if Extra Rage will give you extra ferocity uses: no reason it shouldn't, but sometimes you'll get a no. Still, ferocity's bonus coupled with HnR will give Shadow Blade an extra oomph. Dex to damage with finesse weapons, doubled against flatfooted opponents, and ferocity's stat bonuses translate to basically +4 normal/+6 flat-foot damage, which multiply on a crit.

I'm not sure you can use both Thug and Hit-and-Run fighter, since both give up heavy (and I think medium) armor.

Blackhawk748
2014-10-19, 11:54 AM
I'm not sure you can use both Thug and Hit-and-Run fighter, since both give up heavy (and I think medium) armor.

Thug just gives up heavy, but it also makes you lose you first fighter feat, so mayby.

Fax Celestis
2014-10-19, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure you can use both Thug and Hit-and-Run fighter, since both give up heavy (and I think medium) armor.

Ymmv, aydm. I think HnR would be better for this build than Thug, honestly.

Gnome Alone
2014-10-19, 03:09 PM
Gah, I forgot that the Thug variant loses the first bonus feat. Pretty much the only reason I put Fighter in there at all was for bonus feats. I just went Thug for the extra skill points and since I'm already restricted to light armor anyway. (Actually with all this DEX focus I'll probably end up enchanting normal clothes like Bracers of Armor or something.) I didn't put the skill point progression in, but since Fighters have like none of the skills I want except for Jump, I delayed taking Jump ranks until 3rd level, then that's all I took on that level. Hit-and-Run Fighter looks like a way better deal, though it does look like it's supposed be Drow-only. ("But... aw, c'mon, Drow suck anyway, what do they need it for?" I'll say.) It still gets the bonus feat though, right? And Ferocity Barbarian is a fantastic idea - it'd actually give me an idea for those last two feat slots too: Extra Rage and ITWF, since I wouldn't be getting it from a 2nd fighter level. I am really liking this plan.

Fax Celestis
2014-10-19, 03:27 PM
Definitely. You could also AYDM if you can combine Whirling Frenzy and Ferocity. More of a stretch than using Extra Rage on Ferocity, but might be worth asking.

HnR Fighter technically doesn't have a racial prerequisite, despite being in a a race-specific book. Most people don't care.

Jeff the Green
2014-10-19, 10:11 PM
Yeah, I've used the "Drow" ACFs a couple times, but never on a Drow. (If you can stomach ten levels of Wizard, Abyssal Specialist is fun to combine with the 10th-level planar Wizard substitution level.)

Gnome Alone
2014-10-19, 10:15 PM
Definitely. You could also AYDM if you can combine Whirling Frenzy and Ferocity. More of a stretch than using Extra Rage on Ferocity, but might be worth asking.

If nothing else, it'd be something to ask for in order to have something to give up at the negotiations, I guess. Gotta say, that extra attack would be pretty nice, cuz the Barbarian level does delay ITWF quite a bit (and I don't wanna lose any more IL than I already am.) I think it'd be worth it, even without Whirling Frenzy, to have that Ferocity in the pocket for extra oomph when needed though.

So let's see...

Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1/Swordsage 3/Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Swordsage 12

1-Shadow Blade
2-Weapon Finesse
3-TWF, Adaptive Style
6-Travel Devotion
9-Gloom Razor
12-Extra Turning
15-Extra Rage
18- ITWF

Mwa ha. Ha.


HnR Fighter technically doesn't have a racial prerequisite, despite being in a a race-specific book. Most people don't care.

Oh, I see. Yeah, I didn't realize that its only prerequisite is "Fighter level 1st" until you pointed that out. I'd heard of the variant but never really looked into it.

Damn, thanks, Fax - that Hit and Run Shenanigans feature is really synergistic, considering how many ways I'll have to flat-foot people anyway.

Waker
2014-10-19, 11:13 PM
Have you considered the Dervish at all? The feat requirements aren't fun, but the class could easily grant you some of the things you want. Bonuses to damage, fast movement and the ability to move between attacks, the Spring Attack feat and a few other little things.

Gnome Alone
2014-10-20, 12:26 AM
I did consider it, actually. But, my glob, it requireth much feats, and lo, most of them are awful. I'd have to take more levels in Fighter, or take flaws (which I kinda can't stand) and then, nice as Dervish Dance is, I feel like the whole Travel Devotion thing is close enough.

I suppose that if Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand) counted as Weapon Focus for the requirements, that'd make it a wee bit more tolerable, but, as the kids say, meh.

I would, however, take it in a heartbeat as one side of a gestalt.

Feint's End
2014-10-20, 06:41 AM
2 things.

1. Why do you take travel devotion as a feat when you plan on taking a cleric dip? That is overall kind of a waste.

My suggestion. Go cleric and get travel and animal devotion (use animal devotion only for the wings and fluff it as having wings of air). Then put your 6th level feat into something else. (Like extra turning)

Alternatively drop either fighter or swashbuckler and delay adaptive style to 6th (it won't hurt that much). Then get cleric at level 3 for earlier access to swift action move and flight.

2. You don't get a stance at level 6 since you only have 4 levels of swordsage. This is a big point. Swordsage gets a stance at level 5. This means you have to take another level of swordsage or spend your 6 level feat on extra stance (which I don't recommend).

Seerow
2014-10-20, 11:01 AM
Four levels of Binder + a feat(or 6 levels of binder without a feat) to bind Paimon will net you an ability very similar to Dervish Dance with a 5 round (4 round with a feat) cooldown.

It also gives +4 untyped dex, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack, and +4 to Tumble/Perform. It's quite nice.


Also Paimon's influence is pretty tolerable even if you are super strict about that. It makes you "lascivious and bold" and requires you to dance when you hear music.

Gnome Alone
2014-10-20, 12:01 PM
2 things.

1. Why do you take travel devotion as a feat when you plan on taking a cleric dip? That is overall kind of a waste.

My suggestion. Go cleric and get travel and animal devotion (use animal devotion only for the wings and fluff it as having wings of air). Then put your 6th level feat into something else. (Like extra turning)

Alternatively drop either fighter or swashbuckler and delay adaptive style to 6th (it won't hurt that much). Then get cleric at level 3 for earlier access to swift action move and flight.


Hm. The history of building this was that I had the "refreshing dip in cleric" complete with trading the domain for Travel Devotion at 4th, then talked myself out of it because it seemed cheesy, and was gonna just go with the feat at 6th for 1/day and be fine with that... Then the siren song of moar powerrr called to me and I stuck the Cleric dip back in. This is kinda silly, but I really like speed. Like, I have to talk myself out of putting the Quick trait on every character, so I kinda dug the idea of Longstrider. Which, now that I think about it, is not worth a feat.

And while I appreciate the suggestion for getting flight via Animal Devotion, it crosses my nebulous, personal limit of how much I can tolerate refluffing. I can't look at a spiked chain and go "no, it's actually a sword" and I can't be all, "look, my feat that says I love hawks so much I can fly means I have elemental air wings instead."

So, I think I'm gonna go with Travel Domain=>Travel Devotion, and take the Celerity Domain instead. +10 ft. speed constantly and +30 for 1 minute a day. Makes my base speed 50 ft. with the Barbarian dip, which is all the sweeter now that I finally made a character who gets significant benefits from being fast, instead of just the speed for its own hilarious sake which I usually talk myself out of.

As an added bonus, these domains are both granted by Fharlanghn, so, in the unlikely event I find someone who's cool with Complete Champion, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle and the Spell Compendium, but not, for some godawful reason, deity-less clerics, I'll be ready.


2. You don't get a stance at level 6 since you only have 4 levels of swordsage. This is a big point. Swordsage gets a stance at level 5. This means you have to take another level of swordsage or spend your 6 level feat on extra stance (which I don't recommend).

I'd have Initiator Level 5, though, which oughtta work. If I'm wrong about that, it must be a common mistake - I got the idea for this build in the first place from reading someone's Daring Outlaw build with a two level swordsage dip at 8th and 9th for Assassin's Stance.


Four levels of Binder + a feat(or 6 levels of binder without a feat) to bind Paimon will net you an ability very similar to Dervish Dance with a 5 round (4 round with a feat) cooldown.

It also gives +4 untyped dex, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack, and +4 to Tumble/Perform. It's quite nice.

K'damn, that is nice. I like the concept of Binders, and I keep meaning to make one of the ol' "hipster clerics," but I've never looked into the mechanics much. I might just do exactly that on this build after I get Pouncing Charge and Dancing Mongoose, those being the last things I really wanted from swordsage, and everything after being gravy.

And then I could come back anyway after that. Wouldn't get 9th level maneuvers, but... idk, I don't hold my breath for actually playing characters until 20th level anyway.

Oh, but I'd have to get that 4th level of Binder by 15th to take the feat. Or drop some of the dips.

...I think maybe I'll try to work up another version of this build, for the sake of comparison if nothing else, cuz that is one nice vestige.


Also Paimon's influence is pretty tolerable even if you are super strict about that. It makes you "lascivious and bold" and requires you to dance when you hear music.

And I was planning on being kinda like that anyway.

Feint's End
2014-10-20, 03:10 PM
Yes you have an initiator level of 5 which qualifies you for 3rd level stances but a level 4 swordsage doesn't actually get a stance. You still use your normal progression. Level 5 swordsage give you the next stance.

Gnome Alone
2014-10-20, 06:57 PM
Ok, I see - so I've gotta delay that second swordsage level until I can take Assassin's Stance with it. Which is... six other levels. And take it at 8th. Or 9th, if I wanna fit the Binder deal in there. So, maybe something like swordsage 1/barbarian 1/cleric 1/binder 4/swordsage 1/h&r fighter 1/swordsage 10. Drops Swashbuckler since I could get Weapon Finesse through Paimon... although, it'd be kinda weird not being able to lift my flipping sword properly unless I've got a magic sword demon in my head, but hey! welcome to Dungeons and Dragons, right?

Speaking of Binder, Seerow (or anyone really): I was looking at it, and it looks like Paimon is a 3rd level vestige, which ordinarily they don't get until 5th level- so it looked like the options were take 5 levels, take 4 and use the bonus feat for Improved Binding to raise the "EBL" up two levels in the progression, or spend a normal feat on Improved Binding when taking the 3rd level. Am I getting that wrong?

Seerow
2014-10-20, 06:59 PM
You're right. I'm not sure why I added an extra level to it. Guess I've been dealing with sorcerers too much lately.

Feint's End
2014-10-21, 12:57 AM
Ok, I see - so I've gotta delay that second swordsage level until I can take Assassin's Stance with it. Which is... six other levels. And take it at 8th. Or 9th, if I wanna fit the Binder deal in there. So, maybe something like swordsage 1/barbarian 1/cleric 1/binder 4/swordsage 1/h&r fighter 1/swordsage 10. Drops Swashbuckler since I could get Weapon Finesse through Paimon... although, it'd be kinda weird not being able to lift my flipping sword properly unless I've got a magic sword demon in my head, but hey! welcome to Dungeons and Dragons, right?

Speaking of Binder, Seerow (or anyone really): I was looking at it, and it looks like Paimon is a 3rd level vestige, which ordinarily they don't get until 5th level- so it looked like the options were take 5 levels, take 4 and use the bonus feat for Improved Binding to raise the "EBL" up two levels in the progression, or spend a normal feat on Improved Binding when taking the 3rd level. Am I getting that wrong?

Now that build looks very solid. Just don't forget you shouldn't take more than 6 levels aside from a full initiator so you can still get 9th level maneuvers. Otherwise I highly approve :)

As for your question ... yes you are correct. In fact the 4th binder level is kind of meaningless. You might sneak in another level of fighter here.

Seerow
2014-10-21, 01:06 AM
Now that build looks very solid. Just don't forget you shouldn't take more than 6 levels aside from a full initiator so you can still get 9th level maneuvers. Otherwise I highly approve :)

As for your question ... yes you are correct. In fact the 4th binder level is kind of meaningless. You might sneak in another level of fighter here.

Actually right now he has (in total):

swordsage 13/barbarian 1/cleric 1/binder 4/h&r fighter 1

As you pointed out he wants 14 levels of swordsage for a 9th level maneuver, and the 4th binder level is superfluous, so he can drop the extra binder level for 1 more sword sage level. So you get something like:

1: Swordsage
2: Barbarian
3: Cleric
4-6: Binder (Taking this here so you qualify for Improved Binding at level 6)
7: H&R Fighter
8-20: Swordsage

Feint's End
2014-10-21, 01:12 AM
Oh my bad ... should have read your previous post closer. Yeah that build looks pretty good for what you want.

Gnome Alone
2014-10-21, 07:27 AM
Ha - that's almost exactly what I came up with, except I took the fighter level at 3 for earlier flat-foot damage and the cleric level at 7 since I'll have Sudden Leap/Wolf Fang Strike as "mini-pounce" from level 1 anyway.

Thanks dudes.