Pulling Aggro?

[Extra Anchovies]

In 3.5, the Knight base class has Test of Mettle, which is one of the best abilities a tank can have. Is there anything similar in Pathfinder, stuff that allows a tanky character to force enemies to ignore the tank's allies? Preferably non-PoW, because I'm still new to PF and don't want to have to learn an entire subsystem when I just finished wrapping my head around Incarnum, but if Path of War is necessary for building a good tank then so be it.

[Raven777]

Well, you could make a Gnome Ranger and take the worst feat in the game (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)...

But more seriously, you could try a Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) + Dazing Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazing-assault-combat) Barbarian? It depends a lot on positioning to force the foes to need to go through you, though. Most tanking does, actually. Despite your objection, a Warder from Path of War is the only thing I know with a mechanic resembling a traditional "taunt".

[Sayt]

The only first party aggro mechanic I can think of is Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize).

Otherwise, yeah, you want the Iron Tortoise discipline from Path of War.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, you could make a Gnome Ranger and take the worst feat in the game (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)...

But more seriously, you could try a Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) + Dazing Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazing-assault-combat) Barbarian? It depends a lot on positioning to force the foes to need to go through you, though. Most tanking does, actually. Despite your objection, a Warder from Path of War is the only thing I know with a mechanic resembling a traditional "taunt".

Hm, Come and Get Me/Dazing Assault is a good suggestion. Pathfinder barbarians seem really fun; when I end up playing one I'll include that combo. Keeping enemies in full-attack range (via Daze) is a good thing.

Also, having now taken a look at the Warder's class abilities (I haven't gotten into maneuvers/stances yet), it actually seems to be perfect for what I'm trying to do. I'm considering putting in the time to look through the PoW maneuver lists for a while and come up with something good from there. Barbarian will stay as a backup in case DSP material isn't allowed for some reason.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The only thing remotely close to pulling aggro well I know of in paizo PF is the Compel Hostility spell. Even then, the best use isn't for yourself, but to draw aggro to your eidolon as a summoner...

Antagonize is just a terrible feat since the nerfs. An enemy can just pick up and throw a rock at you and meet the restrictions imposed on him by the feat.

Come and Get Me + Dazing Assault is a fun combo I highly recommend. But it is a high level thing (level 13+ to have a feat for DA) and is actually the opposite of pulling aggro -- it strongly encourages foes to *not* dare try and melee you.

If you could combine it with In Harm's Way, it would rock for aggro, but by strict RAW it doesn't. Ask if DM will allow it, though, it'd be very flavorful bodyguarding. Enemy tries to attack an ally next to you; you throw yourself in the way instead; since he's now attacking you (the point of contention keeping this from being strict RAW-legal), Come and Get Me triggers and you counter-attack first; you hit and daze him and he loses his turn. Serves him right for trying to hurt your friend!

EDIT: You could also do an Honor Guard Order of the Dragon Cavalier, take the helpful trait (+2 to aid another bonus), and with freely provided Bodyguard feat grant an adjacent ally something like +7 AC by expending an AoO. Encouraging foes to strike you because of the AC difference. I think that's underwhelming, though... Anyone truly in need of protection likely wouldn't want to be standing near you in melee anyway and probably has such worse AC than you that the +7 doesn't make theirs much higher than yours. And if you're using this tactic, you're not flanking.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you could combine it with In Harm's Way, it would rock for aggro, but by strict RAW it doesn't. Ask if DM will allow it, though, it'd be very flavorful bodyguarding. Enemy tries to attack an ally next to you; you throw yourself in the way instead; since he's now attacking you (the point of contention keeping this from being strict RAW-legal), Come and Get Me triggers and you counter-attack first; you hit and daze him and he loses his turn. Serves him right for trying to hurt your friend!

That... that is a beautiful combo, right there. I'll have to ask about that one, it's too good to pass up.

Regarding the Warder: does the Zweihander Sentinel archetype hold up next to vanilla Warder? The extra reach/damage on AoOs is nice, as is the free scaling AC bonus (plus I can toss on a few shield bash feats if I want), but I don't know anything about the relative strengths of Broken Blade and Scarlet Throne, and having a wider aegis might be useful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That... that is a beautiful combo, right there. I'll have to ask about that one, it's too good to pass up.

I do like it. It is very feat-intensive, though. Power Attack, Dazing Assault, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, In Harm's Way. Granted, you probably wanted at least half of those anyway, but the combo does cost a lot of resources to set up.

[Jigawatts]

Just to reiterate.

Step 1: Play a Warder
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

Zweihander will work just fine, but personally I like the classical sword and shield style Warder, I mean if you are going to play a tank/bodyguard type character, why not do it properly. Broken Blade can be used for a lot of shield attacks in addition to the standard Iron Tortoise. Scarlet Throne has lots of nice things though.

[Greenish]

Regarding the Warder: does the Zweihander Sentinel archetype hold up next to vanilla Warder? The extra reach/damage on AoOs is nice, as is the free scaling AC bonus (plus I can toss on a few shield bash feats if I want), but I don't know anything about the relative strengths of Broken Blade and Scarlet Throne, and having a wider aegis might be useful.Broken Blade is probably slightly stronger in terms of pure damage, but Scarlet Throne has some pretty sweet counters.

[Ellowryn]

From a pure optimization standpoint zwiehander is better as killing your enemies is better than trying to avoid getting hit as AC scales so horribly. Plus at high levels you can have almost the same amount of AC from your armament shield ability as a traditional shield while still rocking two handed weapon damage.

Both broken blade and scarlet throne offer high damage maneuvers with certain ones at certain levels, but if you want to truly tank then you would want to focus on iron tortoise maneuvers anyways. Angering Smash + Armiger's mark is an extremely powerful combo available from level 2 and stays relevant through most levels.

[Psyren]

Antagonize is just a terrible feat since the nerfs. An enemy can just pick up and throw a rock at you and meet the restrictions imposed on him by the feat.


I agree with you that the feat is bad, but this is one of the best possible outcomes for using it as they've basically spent their entire turn trying to attack you with an improvised weapon.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree with you that the feat is bad, but this is one of the best possible outcomes for using it as they've basically spent their entire turn trying to attack you with an improvised weapon.

You spent a feat to maybe (if you make the check) make them waste one turn by for-sure wasting your own turn. And you can only do it to the foe once per encounter. That's a horrible waste of a feat. It's only good when the party has a significant numerical advantage for the action economy trade to even be worth it.

And you are right. That is the best possible outcome. If the foe has an actual ranged attack, you wasted your turn just for the foe to make a suboptimal backup attack option. That was the point. Even the best outcome is still poor.

[Psyren]

You spent a feat to maybe (if you make the check) make them waste one turn by for-sure wasting your own turn. And you can only do it to the foe once per encounter. That's a horrible waste of a feat. It's only good when the party has a significant numerical advantage for the action economy trade to even be worth it.

And you are right. That is the best possible outcome. If the foe has an actual ranged attack, you wasted your turn just for the foe to make a suboptimal backup attack option. That was the point. Even the best outcome is still poor.

Oh I know, I was just saying that your latter paragraph would have been the better example. Trading a standard action from you for a full-round action from them isn't as bad.

[Extra Anchovies]

Broken Blade is probably slightly stronger in terms of pure damage, but Scarlet Throne has some pretty sweet counters.

Indeed. I think I'll be taking Scarlet Throne; two-handing means moar damage, and the strikes that add bonus damage and a debuff are really nice. Plus, I can get IRON HEART SURGE Sanguine Perfection. Picking up Martial Training (Broken Blade) is going to be a thing I'll do to get Acrobatics as a class skill for tumblin', but would it be worth going farther down that feat chain to nab some higher-level BB maneuvers?

[RolkFlameraven]

Regarding the Warder: does the Zweihander Sentinel archetype hold up next to vanilla Warder? The extra reach/damage on AoOs is nice, as is the free scaling AC bonus (plus I can toss on a few shield bash feats if I want), but I don't know anything about the relative strengths of Broken Blade and Scarlet Throne, and having a wider aegis might be useful.

Playing a Zweihander Sentinel in my game right now. Used to be nice and stupid back when Scarlet Einhander was Scarlet Zweihander as it covered some of the lack of a true shield but oh well.

I'm loving him, even if I took Silver Crane and lost getting into Iron Tortoise as our Cleric had to bow out. Scarlet Throne is a very nice school if you are looking at pure DPS as two handed is still two handed even if PF dropped it down a bit from 3.5. Broken blade can make your Shield (as they are close weapons) VERY powerful. As it stands I'm glad I decided to go Zweiahander this time around but something closer to Steven Rodgers using the two schools my current Wader can't use is something I want to play as well as a Hawk Guard at some point.

The Warder is my favorite class in all of Pathfinder at the moment, but a lot of that is due to my preference to playing the "tank" in MMO's as of late as well.