Cat-a-pault

[SVentura77]

So I am about to start a new campaign. This campaign is going to be entirely open-ended. There is no main quest. There are no real quests. The world is revolving around economics and an (mostly) entirely corrupt city in which the PC's begin the campaign.

Here is the breakdown:

My characters will be a Tibbet rogue/sorcerer, a Goliath barbarian (maximizing jump/grapple), and either a lizardfolk or unseely fey (probably druid). All books are open, most everything is open, homebrew is not open.

They've decided through "let's introduce you to the world you'll be playing" chats that they're going to play the game as a mafia type group of heroes (it's an evil campaign); however, I understand through random asides that they will be angling for a "cat-a-pault" style approach.

What I understand this to mean is this: the tibbet will shift into cat form, the lizardfolk will apply poison to the now-non-magical cat's claws, the giant will use skill points and strength to secretly throw the cat into a large crowd to target the high intelligence lizardfolk's selected nemesis (so as to increase this new mafia's standing amongst the ranks of the corrupt city). The cat will, of course run off before suspicion is aroused.

What I'm asking is this: what do you think I should look out for to dodge ridiculous brokenness? Are there rules in the books that I don't already know about that should alter the trajectory of their "business" plan? How hard/easy do you think this type of plan should be?

I know there are difficulties revolving around throwing another teammate. I know there are difficulties revolving around throwing a non-proficiency projectile over long ranges. I recognize some other difficulties, but am too inebriated to remember them right now. Could I have some assistance? What do you think, Playground? What type of rules-lawyering should I enact so as to limit (but not completely) their activities? I don't want them to kill everyone that opposes them by cat-a-pulting onto the scene and then retreating (or do I?).

A topic for another day is how to manage a goliath who desires nothing more than crafting a penis-blade attachment (a la "Se7en"), and then grappling withe people, jumping high into the air, dropping them, and then landing on top of them with said "attachment." I'm still struggling to describe how that's going to work mid-combat.

Thanks for the help. Reply with some honest (flame)critique if this didn't turn out as clear as I thought I typed it.

~S~

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have nothing to constructively add to your questions. But your thread title pleasantly reminded me of one of my favorite dialogue exchanges ever, from Samurai Warriors (XL, I believe).

Tadakatsu Honda: "I will destroy as many men as you throw at me!"
Shingen Takeda: "And what if I threw kittens at you, Tadakatsu? Would you destroy them, too?"

And thus the very obscure (and now dated) "kitten cannon" meme as a way to scare off Tadakatsu was born. :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

"Secretly"? So nobody is going to notice a giant dude hurling a cat through the air? This plan sounds infinitely more conspicuous than just having the cat stroll up next to them on its own four feet.

Poison is not a terribly reliable assassination method either as it offers a save that does not scale well into higher levels.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wouldn't being hurled at armor hurt the cat? I would try, but my cat clawed me when I tried to get him into his safety padding.
Also, wouldn't people notice that everytime these guys show up, a poisoned cat does as well? It cannot be that common! Also, I imagine a Goliath/Lizardfolk duo might stand out a bit.
And make sure the city has decency laws, so keep rolling to see if that 'attachment' has ripped through his pants. It could even damage his own armor, if its intended to fight armored opponents. That is probably harder to explain then the cat.
Sunder. Just saying.

[SVentura77]

Yeah, the plan has a couple of holes in it, to be sure.

Apparently the players are alright with taking the risk of damage from being thrown.

The lizardfolk player isn't planning on being present at the "hits." So he hopes to avoid detection through simply planning and sending the muscle out to do the dirty work.

I guess a good question to ask is "how far do you think a goliath could throw a cat?" It may not be the most precise targeting one could hope for, but a 20+ strength has got to be able to lob the furball pretty far, yeah?

I'd almost go with decency laws, but I think that's going to end up being too restrictive for this group of players. I'm thinking the goliath will have to take improved unarmed strike or something in order to successfully use his "weapon." Sundering would be a comically tragic end result of this whole concept.

Poison does seem a bit... less than useful for their purposes. I think they're expecting one of them to have an effect like "instant death." I don't know what to recommend to them to use otherwise, though.

Here's a question: Would being thrown count as a move for the kitten? Could the cat be thrown with an attack as a readied action or would he have to land and then fit himself into the initiative order?

No recommendations for character options that might help them maximize their potential with this endeavor? Maybe something to help alleviate some of the being-thrown damage to the cat? Or something to help the goliath be able to more successfully lob a teammate? I'm drawing blanks a little bit.

[Honest Tiefling]

So you need a Dexterity check to avoid poisoning yourself. Would it also count for the cat? Who makes the check?

[Troacctid]

I guess a good question to ask is "how far do you think a goliath could throw a cat?" It may not be the most precise targeting one could hope for, but a 20+ strength has got to be able to lob the furball pretty far, yeah?
An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet, and the maximum range is five increments, so 50 feet.


Here's a question: Would being thrown count as a move for the kitten? Could the cat be thrown with an attack as a readied action or would he have to land and then fit himself into the initiative order?
No action would be required from the kitten.

[JusticeZero]

This seems like the sort of plan for which multiple sessions can be derived from the hysterically ridiculous effects of an assassination attempt so disastrous that the target never notices the attack. It reads like the first half of one of those comic anecdotes that become famous.

[SVentura77]

The lizardfolk is the poison dusk variety, so he'd be painting the nails of the cat with poison. Poison Dusks can poison without the risk of poisoning themselves. I imagine that'll stretch to not being at risk of poison Mittens at the same time. The cat wouldn't be able to poison his own claws after shifting into cat form anyways, I think.

50 feet max. I remember reading that now! Goliath ain't going to be pleased, but what can ya do? Thanks for the reminder. These are all the types of things I need to remember before experiencing Cat-a-pult firsthand.

~S~

[Troacctid]

And remember that 50 feet is with a -8 penalty to the attack roll as well.

[SVentura77]

Yeah, I remembered about the negs to hit, but I just imagined that someone with a boatload of strength would be able to chuck a cat further than 50 feet. Seems like a person should be able to (though I know that's a dangerous rabbit hole to climb down).

Maybe I can convince them to craft some sort of rudimentary cat-sling to gain range. That way the cat would count as some sort of kitten bullet rather than an odd thrown item.

Oh! I just remembered something that's been a bit confusing me. The goliath is able to count himself as large when it is beneficial to him and medium whenever that's beneficial to him. If he's grappling someone and counts himself as large to gain size benefits can he simultaneously count himself as medium in regards to someone outside of that grapple attempting to hit him? Can he get the best of both worlds at the same time or if he counts himself as large does he become large until he "turns the ability off" or something?

[Yahzi]

rudimentary cat-sling

There is only one possible response to the cat-a-pault: when they try it, the guards defend with the DOBIEOMATIC!

http://mngboxers.com/home-new/resources-2/182-2/dobieomatic/

[Feint's End]

I'm sorry but this is a horrible plan. Why throw the cat? You can just poison it's claws and then let it run in but throwing it? Why would anybody do that. This is much too obvious. It would take 1 kill and some people would find out (unless tibbits are extremely rare). And then always this more-than-2-meter guy who throws it.

Also if the rogue can't kill the target fast enough (which is pretty likely if the target has some good defenses) he has a big problem. Being in the middle of the crowd ... potentially with some angry bodyguards trying to kill you ... This is not a spot you want to be in.

[DrKerosene]

Races of Stone has a couple relevant feats.
Rock Hurling: Requires Large size and 19 STR, can throw 40-50lbs rocks with a range increment of 15ft.

Fling Ally: Requires Rock Hurling and the ally to be at leas one size category smaller for a range increment of 5ft. 15ft if they are two sizes smaller than you.

Improved Rock Hurling: Requires large size, 23 STR, range increment becomes 80ft (20ft for Fling Ally).

ToB has a bunch of Throwing Maneuvers in the Setting Sun school. Most of them say that if the target is thrown into an occupied square, they land prone. No damage unless it's part of the maneuver. Edit: Shame cats don't have the ability to always land standing up, but I know some boots do that.

I would allow the Tibbit/Cat to "ready an action to attack (target) when close enough", but that's the Tibbit's whole turn and he drops initiative to after the Goliath.

Also, yes, the Goliath player gets the best of being Medium and Large when it is advantageous for them.

[SVentura77]

For the record, it isn't my plan. I'm just the guy who has to DM the dang thing. I think they're less going for solid tactical efficiency and more going for "what could be the most ridiculous assassination combo, ok let's do that." I think they're aiming for a surprise round that not only technically counts by the rules, but would surprise anyone in real life. I can only imagine giving a speech to a large crowd of people, when, from somewhere in the back of the crowd, a cat comes sailing silently through the air... and then I faint.

I'm sure they're also planning on using cat form to simply perform walk-in infiltrations as well.

As to whether or not the rogue will be able to off the target fast enough... he's hoping for some coup de grace action. We'll see how that pans out.

Anyway, thanks for the info regarding those feats in Races of Stone. I could have sworn that I looked through that book, but I must have meant to and never actually got around to it *shrug*.