Sell me on 5e

[ericgrau]

So I've barely even glanced at 5e and now holy cow the books are coming out. Now I've got to decide if I want to run my first campaign as simplified 3.5e or as 5e. I've skimmed some info and I really like the simplification in 5e. I'm looking forward to combat. I'm scared that some other details I love might be missing. I realize some of this might be DMG material but hopefully those of you who are constantly hounding for leaks can help. Namely I'm looking for:

Dungeon Rules: Is there a DC for breaking a door? For breaking anything imaginable such as chests and padlocks? Combat and movement modifiers on stairs? Etc.
Wilderness Rules: Especially the survival skill. Are there rules to find your way without getting lost? Weather rules (mechanical effects and random weather tables)? Gathering food? Tracking? Noticing hazards like quicksand?
City Rules: Are there approximations for population distribution by level and class? Distribution with types of businesses? Local economies and their major trade goods? Typical wall, gate and tower layouts or sizes? This part isn't that critical since it doesn't need much game mechanics and I might pull it from other sources unrelated to 5e.
Monster Rules: Are there knowledge checks on monsters? A bonus would be sample text blurb results for various DCs.

And special attacks like tripping are kind of nice.

If the responses peak my interest then I may dig a lot deeper and learn all the details on my own, but right now I'm trying to get a more general overview to decide what system I'd like to run. No need to give me a full rules breakdown, just want to get a gist without reading 100 pages of material and then I can dig up the details myself. And if playing and someone else DMs I'd gladly give 5e a go.

[Daishain]

Don't forget that it isn't quite complete yet. Some of the rules you mention are part of the DMG, which isn't due out until December.

Others ended up wrapped up in part of the simplification bit. Dungeon Masters are given general guidelines, and then encouraged to use their common sense. When it comes to difficulty checks, pretty much everything is on a scale of 5-30. With 5 being "a child should manage to do this, at least on the second try", and 30 being "theoretically impossible"

As for city guidelines, I haven't seen anything, but the material from previous editions should work fine for the moment, the mechanics of designing a town, city or nation won't have changed.

A lot of the special attacks were simplified as well, grappling in particular is now actually somewhat comprehensible :smallamused:, not to mention well worth doing. There's no standard charge attack anymore, though some weapons (lance) and special abilities (mostly reserved for monsters) grant the equivalent. Shove is the replacement for bullrush, can knock people back or prone, and can be used as a bonus action by S+B characters with the right feat. Also, movement is much less restrictive, you can use up your entire movement speed all at once, or in small chunks both before and after other actions. Makes sniping someone while dashing between cover much easier.

Anything else you had questions about?

[ericgrau]

So they don't have tables of skill DCs listed out? Or do they have them but you need to fudge them for many unlisted tasks?

Other than that only questions on the DMG material apparently. I may have to wait for the DMG before I decide then. Those are the main issues.

Thanks for the special attack info. Sounds good.

[Scirocco]

They have a table of Skill DCs from Very Easy (5) to Nearly Impossible (30), but nothing as pertaining to specific skills, not that that was required before.

[ericgrau]

Do they at least have specific applications of skills listed out? Or just a general gist of each one?

[Wrenn]

Each skill gets a paragraph of explanation. But, ability checks themselves are more focused on, especially if you use the variant skill rule presented in the PHB. The variant rule has skills uncoupled from their ability. For instance, if the Barbarian wants to frighten an enemy by growling and breaking a log over his knee, the DM calls for a strength (intimidate) check.

Another difference is that certain things that were skills in 3.5 now fall under tool proficiencies in 5e. For instance picking locks and disarming traps are only considered ability checks, but if you're proficient with thieve's tools then you can add your bonus to the check. Unlike skills, tools are never tied to a specific ability, it's up to the Dm to assign an ability depending on the situation. Example, you're trained in the woodworking tools and you want to carve a replica of a small totem. This would be a wisdom check as you're relying on your perception to get the details correct. But, if you wanted to carve a staff from petrified wood this would rely more upon strength, working a piece of wood as hard as stone.

[Yuki Akuma]

All of this stuff will probably be in the DMG.

Edit: @Wrenn: Skills are also ability checks.

Edit II: On the subject of special attacks, there is shoving, which is basically bull rushing and tripping combined into one - essentially, you make an opposed ability check (Strength (Athletics) versus either Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)) to either push a foe 5 feet or knock them prone. This, incidentally, makes Rogues and Bards better at tripping than Fighters, assuming equal Strength scores.

[Cambrian]

Dungeon Rules: Is there a DC for breaking a door? For breaking anything imaginable such as chests and padlocks? Combat and movement modifiers on stairs? Etc.
Basically the DM just sets the DCs based on how difficult the door should be to break. In general there are no tables outside of how relatively difficult it is.

Wilderness Rules: Especially the survival skill. Are there rules to find your way without getting lost? Weather rules (mechanical effects and random weather tables)? Gathering food? Tracking? Noticing hazards like quicksand? Yes there are rules for that in the PHB. In general characters can do all sorts of things like navigating, drawing a map, track a creature, forage, etc...

Rangers get additional bonuses for themselves and the rest of the party.

City Rules: Are there approximations for population distribution by level and class? Distribution with types of businesses? Local economies and their major trade goods? Typical wall, gate and tower layouts or sizes? This part isn't that critical since it doesn't need much game mechanics and I might pull it from other sources unrelated to 5e.Nothing yet but that's definite DMG territory.

Monster Rules: Are there knowledge checks on monsters? A bonus would be sample text blurb results for various DCs.There are knowledge checks but I don't have the MM on me to check how much info the check gives or guidelines for setting DCs. But honestly I'm not sure if it's in the MM or if it will have to wait for the DMG.


And special attacks like tripping are kind of nice.The Battlemaster fighter subclass sounds right up your alley. Anyone can shove or grapple, but the BM gets all sorts of maneuvers to knock back, disarm, or even pass a bonus onto an ally.


If the responses peak my interest then I may dig a lot deeper and learn all the details on my own, but right now I'm trying to get a more general overview to decide what system I'd like to run. No need to give me a full rules breakdown, just want to get a gist without reading 100 pages of material and then I can dig up the details myself. And if playing and someone else DMs I'd gladly give 5e a go.Even a stripped down 3e would almost certainly end up less streamlined than 5e, and then there are the additional balance issues. Can't recommend 5e enough.

[Segev]

If this is your first campaign, and you're looking at "simplified 3.5" vs. 5e, I would go with 5e. It is inherently simplified by virtue of having fewer books out, and what it does with its PHB will encompass more usable options than 3.5 core did. A lot of lessons learned that went into later 3.5 books have found their way into 5e's core.

I won't say that 5e is better than 3.5 on all fronts, nor even that it eventually will be. The two are different, and there's a certain quality of gamism that I think 3.5 will always be better at. The two editions are trying to emphasize slightly different aspects of what makes D&D feel like D&D. 5e, however, is harkening back to the almost rustic feel of 2e and earlier while using mechanical lessons learned and technology developed throughout 3e and even 4e. 3e went for much more of a rules-centric game, where the RAW are explicit and detailed. 5e is openly indicating that RAI is meant to be easy to discern, and for DMs to make more frequent judgment calls. What's nice is that this isn't used as an excuse to make incomplete or sloppy rules-as-written; it's just a design philosophy that means less rules-lawyerese precision is needed. They spend more time showing an idea of what is intended and less on trying to cover all cases and close out all loopholes.

For your first campaign, I think 5e will be very much what you want.

[Geoff]

So I've barely even glanced at 5e and now holy cow the books are coming out. Now I've got to decide if I want to run my first campaign as simplified 3.5e or as 5e. Simplifying 3.5 sounds too complicated. While 5e isn't fundamentally simpler than 3.0 at release, there is simply a whole lot less to it than 3.5/Pathfinder with 14 years of goodies piled on top, so it might very well give you the simpler feel you want, without having to go through 3.5 with a machete to simplify it.


Dungeon Rules: Is there a DC for breaking a door? For breaking anything imaginable such as chests and padlocks? There may or may not be sample DCs, but every DC comes down to the DM deciding what it is (or deciding no roll is required or that a task is impossible), right when the player declares the action.

Combat and movement modifiers on stairs? No.

Etc. That's a DM call.


Wilderness Rules: Especially the survival skill. Are there rules to find your way without getting lost? Weather rules (mechanical effects and random weather tables)? Gathering food? Tracking? Noticing hazards like quicksand? Yes and no. IIRC, the Ranger still has a special tracking ability like in the playtest. Are there rules for the rest: yes, the same rules there are for everything else: the DM decides success/failure/DC.


City Rules: Are there approximations for population distribution by level and class? Distribution with types of businesses? Local economies and their major trade goods? Typical wall, gate and tower layouts or sizes? Not yet, I'd expect most of that sort of thing in the DMG.



Monster Rules: Are there knowledge checks on monsters? A bonus would be sample text blurb results for various DCs. Someone with the MM could tell you the latter. Knowledge checks are like every other check, you ask "do I recognize these/what do I know about them?" and the DM says 'no,' or tells you what you no, and/or calls for a roll vs a DC he sets to see how much he'll tell you.


And special attacks like tripping are kind of nice. Most monsters have an attack and a special quality of some sort (which can be a special attack). Some have two or even a few. Some cast spells.

TL;DR: It'd probably be a little easier to learn 5e than to extensively re-work 3.5 to be much simpler. If 'core only' and or 'E6' is simplified enough for you, though, stick with 3.5.