Realistic Lance Rules

[ObsidianRose]

I've been thinking about it, and certain things with lances just don't make sense. So, here are a few of my changes.

First of all, for using a lance charge, you can't take a power attack. In addition, you may apply your mounts strenght modifier to damage, but only your strenght penalty.

Anyone see major balance issues with this?

[Deepblue706]

edit: GAH!

I misread the post, sorry.

Makes sense. I don't see any immediate balance issues...

But I think lance charges should do more damage..

[Haedrian]

Don't you do double damage when you charge with a lance using a mount already?

Using a Power attack on lance charge just sounds stupid... So, I agree.

[Deepblue706]

Don't you do double damage when you charge with a lance using a mount already?



Yes. It should be MORE! MOOOORE!

[Matthew]

What are we talking about here? As far as I know [Lance + Charge + Power Attack = Huge Amount of Damage]. Do you want to reduce the potential damage or increase it?

[Deepblue706]

ObsidianRose wants it to be more realistic. When a lance is couched, you don't actually thrust, so much as you hold onto it while the horse runs it in.

I was commenting that more damage should be dealt. A lance charge should be amazingly brutal.

[Matthew]

I see. Well, the quickest and dirtiest answer I can think of is to use the Horse's Strength instead of the rider's. However, it should be noted that the Rider's strength is important to delivering an effective blow with a lance.

Other options include granting a Damage Bonus as well as an Attack Bonus when charging . I don't see any reason to discard [I]Power Attack in this regard.

[Swordguy]

I'd say Matthew's got a pretty nice answer there. To hit, use the rider's strength stat (his ability to keep the lance on target). For damage, use the horse's strength. Although this discounts the ability to have riders with strength scores in the 40's and horses considerably lower.

A meaner response is to figure a multiplier of the horse's strength combined with how far the horse got to move before it hit. Take acceleration into account - but it's a lot more math-intensive.

[Behold_the_Void]

I'm curious, where does it say you can't Power Attack on a lance? I checked the weapon description in the SRD and it simply says it can be used one-handed while mounted.

[Matthew]

I think removing the ability to Power Attack is what Obsidian Rose is proposing, which is what has got me confused about whether we are talking about increasing or decreasing the potential damage from a Lance Charge.

i.e.

When making a Lance Charge a Character:

Adds his Mount's Strength Bonus in place of his own
Adds his Strength Penalty, if applicable
Cannot use Power Attack

I think the first two clauses are a good idea, but I cannot see why you would want to remove Power Attack.

[Weezer]

The point to removing power attack for lances is to make it more realistic. It is hard to thrust more powerfully with a lance because to be used effectivly lances are held tightly against the side, with all the power behind the attack coming from the mass of the charging horse and none from the rider.

[Matthew]

Sure, but all Power Attack does is -BAB for +DB. Power Attack is *not* realistic to begin with, but the Fluff is just that you are sacrificing accuracy for power, which seems as possible with a Lance as with a charging Spear Fighter.

[ObsidianRose]

A charging spear fighter can power attack because his thrusting power comes from his arms and legs. The only thing a horseman does during a charge is make sure the spear focusing the horse's strength is pointed at the right place. But thanks for all the suggestions, and in my home campaign, horse charges will use the rider's strength to attack, but the rider's strenght penalties and the horses strneght mods to damage without any power attack. For example, a level 1 fighter with 8 str riding a horse would attack with +0 using a lance, while his damage would apply d8 -1 + his horse's strenght modifier.

[Matthew]

You're definitely over thinking this. Power Attack has no real world analogue and there are many ways that the Strength of the Rider contributes to the effectiveness of a charge, not least of which keeping the Lance steady before and during contact. Successful use of a lance requires a great deal of upper body strength.

[ObsidianRose]

And that's why keeping it steady is affected by strength penalties. But a lance can only be so steady, and that's why positive strength mods aren't applied. Power Attack's real world analoque is swinging really hard without being that careful. Like when you're tapping lightly at a nail you don't miss, but when you pull back you generally hit your hand.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't agree with that, mainly because Power Attack is not limited by Strength, but by Skill [i.e. BAB]. It doesn't matter how wildly you swing in the real world, there's only so much Strength you can apply to something, that's not the case with Power Attack.

Holding a Lance steady and firm requires a great deal of strength. The horse's strength only applies in the sense of how it contributes to its speed. The horse is not actually wielding the lance.

D&D is an abstract game, looking for this degree of realism requires an accurate physics engine. This doesn't make things 'more realistic', but it does add another layer of complexity.

[magnar]

I'd say Matthew's got a pretty nice answer there. To hit, use the rider's strength stat (his ability to keep the lance on target). For damage, use the horse's strength. Although this discounts the ability to have riders with strength scores in the 40's and horses considerably lower.

A meaner response is to figure a multiplier of the horse's strength combined with how far the horse got to move before it hit. Take acceleration into account - but it's a lot more math-intensive.
Quoted for emphasis.

I think what you have now (not the books, but you personally) is a great way of making these rules more realistic. However, the lance is a useless weapon if one uses it any way but from the back of a horse (or jumping off a cliff, etc.), so perhaps a clause stating that it does half if used stationary, rather than the current X2 on a charge? Anyways, the movement multiplier seems like a good idea, if a bit time-consuming.

Just my 2cp, earned when I tried mounted combat.

[Haedrian]

You're definitely over thinking this. Power Attack has no real world analogue and there are many ways that the Strength of the Rider contributes to the effectiveness of a charge, not least of which keeping the Lance steady before and during contact. Successful use of a lance requires a great deal of upper body strength.

What I'd understand with Power Attack would be to divert all your strenght to swing widely, thereby reducing your chance to hit the opponent, but smashing him badly if you do.

Basically Power Attack (the way I see it) involves swinging a weapon rather randomly, which is something you can't do if you're charging mounted.

[Shrew]

Our house rule is simple. Add your strength mod. to hit, and add both your strength and the horse's strength mods for damage. We do not allow Power attack because you can only thrust a little from horseback.

[Justin_Bacon]

Anyone see major balance issues with this?

Yes. You've further nerfed mounted combat, which is already a fairly sub-par specialization because it can only be used in limited circumstances.

And I'm entirely unclear on what "realism" you're shooting for here. You seem to be under the impression that the skill and strength of the rider has nothing to do with how effective the lance thrust will be. Yet that directly contradicts what we're told by the people who actually practiced mounted combat: They held entire tournaments dedicated to the skill and strength of the riders in their ability to make more effective and powerful lance thrusts.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[Deepblue706]

While the thrusting part is important, holding on to the lance is more vital. Generally, when you're charging, to hold it under your arm makes sure that it stays in your hand and doesn't fall, or knock you off-balance when you strike.

Strength should play a role, but only by so much. The lance is to be used on horseback, and for a good reason - the horse drives it in better than a person can on foot.

[Lapak]

Strength should play a role, but only by so much. The lance is to be used on horseback, and for a good reason - the horse drives it in better than a person can on foot.To not nerf mounted combat, we can combine all of the above: Use the horse's Strength bonus to damage and use the rider's Strength bonus to hit. Allow Power Attack, and interpret it as forcing the horse to charge faster or harder and thus losing accuracy. Maybe add a condition where you can't put more points into Power Attack than you have as a Strength modifier, so as to simulate the difficulty of manipulating the lance at full speed.

How does that sound?

[kellandros]

Counterexample for not able to "power-attack" in real life with a lance:

Aim for the other guy's head. Smaller target, so you are less likely to hit. But if you do, ouch.

Besides, any horse you should attempt to use a lance with has mostly likely been trained for this attack. Maybe just require the mount to learn this as a trick. If it is not a trained war horse, apply some sort of penalty as the rider must spend more concentration urging his mount along.

[Matthew]

The way it currently works is *okay*. You get x2 Damage to reflect the additional power of the charging horse. The easiest thing to do is modify that multiplier if you feel certain Mounts ought to add more damage.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Why not allow power attack to be use if THE MOUNT has power attack. Animals gain feats from HD just like other creatures, therefore I see no reason that a mount reared for mounted combat would not have power attack.

Furthermore mounts reared for combat might well have access to the powerful charge feat.

[Jayabalard]

I agree, a lance attack during a charge should always be considered a power attack, but using the mount's strength rather than the player's

[Danu]

I had a thought... if you're trying to be realistic, wouldn't it be the horse's horse's _speed_ that would increase damage? So rather then using the horse's Str bonus on the attack, how about granting the attack a +1 bonus to damage per 10 or 20 ft of the horse's base land speed?

[kellandros]

Well, the problem with considering the mount as using power attack is they are not the one making the attack roll. Its up to the person with the lance to aim.

Technically the horse's speed would partially effect the damage. More precisely, the damage bonus would be based on velocity times the mass of the horse and rider. I believe the rules are assuming that if you are using a lance for its normal full bonus, you are already moving at a good charge. Moving slower than a gallop would pretty much negate the horse's strength from the equation.

And a much faster horse(enchanted various ways) would technically do more damage.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Actually, it is 2x speed * mass, so a smaller mount moving at twice the speed would to the most damage. Therefore a fast monk should own all with a lance