Was I too mean? (story of the NPC with a difficult name)

[Jon_Dahl]

In our game session today, I had two NPCs with difficult (?) names. My players had seen the names of the NPCs in advance before the session. The names were:
- Parecevous
- Amudieto

The PCs were supposed to talk to the NPCs and talk about them, so they had to pronounce the names out loud. It just happened that one of the players was unable to pronounce the names. He had them written down correctly. He asked me what would happen, if he couldn't say the names.

I told him that there are two options:
- The PCs are able to pronounce all the names that the players are able to pronounce
- If the names seem hard to pronounce IRL, it may be that the PCs find them hard too. An intelligence check DC 10 is reguired to utter the names right.

He took the intelligence check and it went fine. Saying the names wrong would've been very bad since it was a delicate diplomatic affair.

So... Was I too hard? Please critique :)

[Twilightwyrm]

That's not an entirely unreasonable precedent. I make my players make DC 10 Wis checks to remember the names of NPCs they've forgotten. I think in the case of name pronunciation, there are more factors than just intelligence. Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Nobility) (if they are nobility) should be able to substitute for this check of the PC has ranks in those skills.

[Killer Angel]

It really depends from the players and the game-style they enjoy.
But even if they dont like it, if it's done just once, it will be remembered as "that time with those people with the funny names".

[XionUnborn01]

I would just say that you should remember that the PCs live in a world where names without vowels exist and words can be uttered that aren't actual speech but they summon magic.

Basically, they should be used to dealing with unusual names fairly often (assuming you use classic fantasy names) so I wouldn't worry about it because the PCs can probably pronounce them if they have average intelligence.

[Sam K]

Honestly, seems like a bit of an ******* thing to do.

The guy wasn't being sloppy or forgetting things because he wasn't paying attention. From what you're telling, he genuinely just couldn't get the name right.He knew the name, his character knew the name, the player just couldn't say it right.

If you had a player who walked with a limp, would you give his character a penalty to his movement speed unless he made a dex roll?

[Averis Vol]

I honestly think it's kind of funny. Sure, a wee bit mean spirited, but that's your right as a DM sometimes. On an entirely different note, I have an idea, but how are they supposed to be pronounced?

Is it par-say-vu and ah-mi-day-o?

[Urpriest]

I could definitely imagine an adventure with a diplomatic encounter, where one of the challenges is pronouncing the diplomats' names right. In that context, it would be a good way to add a little spice to something that would otherwise be "Diplomacy check, done".

That said, springing it on a player by surprise is a bit mean, particularly since it was in response to an honest inquiry. Not very mean, but just a tad.

[Seto]

It just happened that one of the players was unable to pronounce the names. He had them written down correctly.

In that case, I think you shouldn't have made him roll. I wouldn't have anyway. Some people (among which your player may or may not be) have problems reading or pronouncing words ; it seems unfair to hold it against them when they're honestly trying to get it right. If he knows the name and his character does too, the PC should be able to pronounce it. Or if you really want players to say out loud what their characters say, have another player pronounce it. Besides, the INT-roll thing sounds really rude to me. It could be interpreted as "failing to get the name right means you're dumb", which the player could have taken personally, as they failed even if the character succeeded.

I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply, but just in case, I'd recommend avoiding it next time something like that happens.

[Arbane]

I've heard it said that it's very bad design to have a story succeed or fail based on any single die-roll.

[Threadnaught]

Honestly, seems like a bit of an ******* thing to do.

The guy wasn't being sloppy or forgetting things because he wasn't paying attention. From what you're telling, he genuinely just couldn't get the name right.He knew the name, his character knew the name, the player just couldn't say it right.

If you had a player who walked with a limp, would you give his character a penalty to his movement speed unless he made a dex roll?

I don't know, if the name is proven to be difficult to pronounce OoC, then it makes sense for it to be hard in character.

It does take a bit of thinking to announce out loud "Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore" without having the name in front of you. Something as short as "Cyre" has multiple interpretations, yet only one correct pronunciation "ky-ree", yet some people may refer to it as "care", "ky-er", "cur" or even "sire", some players may also do these, does that make it a bad thing if a DM enforces pronunciation of names in games where such things are important?

[Amphetryon]

In our game session today, I had two NPCs with difficult (?) names. My players had seen the names of the NPCs in advance before the session. The names were:
- Parecevous
- Amudieto

The PCs were supposed to talk to the NPCs and talk about them, so they had to pronounce the names out loud. It just happened that one of the players was unable to pronounce the names. He had them written down correctly. He asked me what would happen, if he couldn't say the names.

I told him that there are two options:
- The PCs are able to pronounce all the names that the players are able to pronounce
- If the names seem to hard to pronounce IRL, it may be that the PCs find them hard too. An intelligence check DC 10 is reguired to utter the names right.

He took the intelligence check and it went fine. Saying the names wrong would've been very bad since it was a delicate diplomatic affair.

So... Was I too hard? Please critique :)

Am I reading this correctly? They had seen the names but not heard them pronounced? If so, then yes, your test was too hard. The pronunciation of names is neither easy nor consistent; "Meghan" can be pronounced with a long "e" in the first syllable by some folks, and a short "e" by others, as an off the cuff example. Expecting them to pronounce a name correctly without having given the pronunciation you expected is "guess what the DM is thinking."

ETA: The more I consider this, the less I like the ruling, as it feels dangerously analogous to "show me how your character used her Heavy Flail to trip someone, so I can determine if she succeeded" or "please demonstrate the ability to construct a functioning lean-to and rain-catcher so that I can determine your character's success at the Survival skill."

[chaos_redefined]

I don't know, if the name is proven to be difficult to pronounce OoC, then it makes sense for it to be hard in character.

It does take a bit of thinking to announce out loud "Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore" without having the name in front of you. Something as short as "Cyre" has multiple interpretations, yet only one correct pronunciation "ky-ree", yet some people may refer to it as "care", "ky-er", "cur" or even "sire", some players may also do these, does that make it a bad thing if a DM enforces pronunciation of names in games where such things are important?

While I might have agreed if all the players were having difficulty, the OP specified that it was only one player who had a problem with it. So, the comparison to the limping player is quite reasonable.

I do get the impression that the players had heard the name pronounced correctly, since the other players were pronouncing it correctly. However, I don't know the full situation regarding the player in question. Maybe he has minor speech problems, and the DM was about to penalize a player for this. That's definitely not cool.

[squiggit]

Personally always a bit hesitant of punishing (or rewarding) a character for something the player does.

[Honest Tiefling]

Given that I am personally very hard of hearing...Yeah, I would just have gotten up at that point and never looked back. (I had an issue where I spent half of a game thinking an NPC's name was something else due to my hearing, for instance.) If my character has random moments of senility or insanity because I as a player, forget something or cannot repeat a funny sounding word back I would just not have fun with that game. Especially not if I had put in the effort to take notes.

If the idea is that there is a language barrier, that is a bit more understandable, but should not be randomly sprung upon the player. Especially not a high INT character, because I do not have 18 INT but he does. If I spent the resources on it, I would like to have it matter.

[ddude987]

I wouldn't do it on a reocurring basis, but seeing as it was a difficult diplomatic affair, perhaps that was part of the challenge. In my regular group we often rename NPCs to something that all the player's remember, despite what the DM wants. For example, there was a wizard who got the name licorice beard because of his beard. Not sure if even the DM remembers his name at this point.

[Crake]

I don't think it's that big a deal, as long as everyone at the table had to roll. Singling out one character because the player couldnt pronounce it doesn't work for me, but if you suddenly had the idea that the names were hard to pronounce and that they required a roll to do so, then all the characters should be subjected to the same ruling, which would make sense. I would have probably made it a dex thing though, I dont think pronounciation is really keyed off int, it's all about moving your mouth in the right way, which feels like dex to me. Figuring out the correct pronounciation would be int, but if they had already heard it (which I'm guessing they had, since it sounded like they knew what the pronounciation was supposed to be, but that one player couldnt get it right) then it would be dex to pull it off.

Just my 2cp

[Sir Garanok]

Just ask yourself how that player would feel if he had failed the roll.

And i really don't get why he had to speak.
What if the party had a character with 8 intelligence?

[Killer Angel]

I've heard it said that it's very bad design to have a story succeed or fail based on any single die-roll.

I've also heard it said that a single dice roll may make a story more or less difficult. Try to fail a sneak near those sentinels...

[Jon_Dahl]

Just to clear some doubts:
No one else said the names. The player who had problems with pronunciation was the self-appointed spokesman. He wanted to speak, but wasn't able.
A single die roll was not going to ruin the adventure. Saying the names wrong would've just made things more difficult and required more creative thinking on players' part.
I think some of you ignore the fact that if the players have problems pronouncing the names, the PCs could have problems too. A player has problems saying the name... Ok, in that case I will award the successful effort to learn, on the spot, how the name is pronounced or have him roll the dice.
There has to be challenges!

[Amphetryon]

Just to clear some doubts:
No one else said the names. The player who had problems with pronunciation was the self-appointed spokesman. He wanted to speak, but wasn't able.
A single die roll was not going to ruin the adventure. Saying the names wrong would've just made things more difficult and required more creative thinking on players' part.
I think some of you ignore the fact that if the players have problems pronouncing the names, the PCs could have problems too. A player has problems saying the name... Ok, in that case I will award the successful effort to learn, on the spot, how the name is pronounced or have him roll the dice.
There has to be challenges!

Challenges to the characters are not the same thing as challenges to the players. For example, the players rarely need to evade lightning bolts while sitting at your table, I hope.

[Jon_Dahl]

Challenges to the characters are not the same thing as challenges to the players. For example, the players rarely need to evade lightning bolts while sitting at your table, I hope.

PC needs to remember a name, but the player can't remember it and can't understand his own handwriting.
PC needs to pronounce someone's name correctly, but is unable to do it.
PC needs to solve the riddle of a Sphinx, but it's too hard.
PC needs to solve a murder mystery, but can't figure out where to start.
I won't say anything more...

[Sam K]

I don't know, if the name is proven to be difficult to pronounce OoC, then it makes sense for it to be hard in character.

It does take a bit of thinking to announce out loud "Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore" without having the name in front of you. Something as short as "Cyre" has multiple interpretations, yet only one correct pronunciation "ky-ree", yet some people may refer to it as "care", "ky-er", "cur" or even "sire", some players may also do these, does that make it a bad thing if a DM enforces pronunciation of names in games where such things are important?

If a character is familiar with the language/culture that uses the name, it may not be difficult to pronouce in character. I can't speak chinese, so pronouncing even simple words in chinese would be hard for me even if I had the words written down. I don't have any references for how the words are supposed to sound. But if I played a character that is fluent in chinese, that character should be able to do it.

I know communication is one of those cases where the line between player ability and character ability easily get blurred, because we can act out what our characters say, but generally I don't think you should penalize a character based on a players inability to do something. Unless it's a formal rule at the table that some things (such as conversations/diplomancy) are resolved mostly through player actions, I wouldn't request rolls because a player has a hard time getting a word right. If a DM did that to me, in the next fight, I'd demand that he demonstrate just how the monsters are evading my unarmed attacks. And I'd power attack. Even if I didn't have the feat.

[Tohsaka Rin]

A good rule of thumb all DMs should remember (and some should learn) is that if you'd find something unfair if it happened to you when you were a player...

You probably shouldn't do it to your players when you're DMing.

It goes both ways, too. If you're a player, and you're acting in a way you'd find unacceptable were you the DM, you should probably put a sock in it. I've actually walked away from the table when I was running a one-on-one portion with a player, because he would not stop cutting me off, when I was trying to address something he had a problem with in-game.

Don't be a jerk, no matter what side of the screen you're on. Everybody will have more fun that way, if they're all getting along.

[Trasilor]

Just to clear some doubts:
No one else said the names. The player who had problems with pronunciation was the self-appointed spokesman. He wanted to speak, but wasn't able.
A single die roll was not going to ruin the adventure. Saying the names wrong would've just made things more difficult and required more creative thinking on players' part.
I think some of you ignore the fact that if the players have problems pronouncing the names, the PCs could have problems too. A player has problems saying the name... Ok, in that case I will award the successful effort to learn, on the spot, how the name is pronounced or have him roll the dice.
There has to be challenges!

Did you give him XP for properly pronouncing the name?

In D&D challenges are defined as a risk/reward scenario. If there is a chance of failure, then there must be a reward.

As such, this scenario is perfectly fine as long as you rewarded your players for overcoming your challenge.

The idea that if something is hard for players it is hard for PCs is a fallacy. Players and PCs generally have vastly different abilities and skill sets. I don't speak Elvish, but my character does. As such, reading an Elven name would be easy for him, but difficult for me.

Names are especially difficult for players. I learned that players rarely can remember them, this is not intentional lack of participation, rather a problem with how people remember things. As such, I tend to give a pass with names - instead I focus on the description. If the players remembers "the man dressed in all black with all black eyes" then I am content.

[atemu1234]

In short, yes, you were being a bit of a jerk.

It's semi-justified, and I'd probably say the same thing, but don't penalize a guy for mispronouncing a name.

[ben-zayb]

So... do casters in this game also make intelligence checks to pronounce verbal components? Maybe another check to remember how they cast spells?

[Amphetryon]

PC needs to remember a name, but the player can't remember it and can't understand his own handwriting.
PC needs to pronounce someone's name correctly, but is unable to do it.
PC needs to solve the riddle of a Sphinx, but it's too hard.
PC needs to solve a murder mystery, but can't figure out where to start.
I won't say anything more...

Again, what the character knows and what the player knows are often very different things. How many languages does your 18 INT wizard speak? Five or more, right? Probably Common and Draconic, along with, let's say, Elvish, Gnomish, and Ignan. How many of those does the player speak? Is the player penalized - even once - for not knowing how to pronounce the Ignan phrasing of "I want to trade this gold for a Fireball spell" at a market with a native Ignan-speaker? If yes, why? If not, how is it different than your example?

[beforemath]

PC needs to remember a name, but the player can't remember it and can't understand his own handwriting.
PC needs to pronounce someone's name correctly, but is unable to do it.
PC needs to solve the riddle of a Sphinx, but it's too hard.
PC needs to solve a murder mystery, but can't figure out where to start.
I won't say anything more...


That's a good point. All of these are clear examples of the DM not expressing himself effectively to his players.

[Magma Armor0]

Again, what the character knows and what the player knows are often very different things. How many languages does your 18 INT wizard speak? Five or more, right? Probably Common and Draconic, along with, let's say, Elvish, Gnomish, and Ignan. How many of those does the player speak? Is the player penalized - even once - for not knowing how to pronounce the Ignan phrasing of "I want to trade this gold for a Fireball spell" at a market with a native Ignan-speaker? If yes, why? If not, how is it different than your example?
Because the person's name is of dwarven origin, for example.

I actually support the DM on this one. Some tables reward player knowledge: there's an example in a book or faq somewhere of a party that meets a blackk dragon. It goes on to say that some tables would expect the players to separate their own knowledge from their charcters' knowledge and make a knowledge check. Other tables would reward the player for knowing that black dragons breathe acid, and let them plan accordingly. Neither is correct, they're just two different styles of gaming. In this case, the player may have known how to pronounce the name, and awarded that knowledge as bonus info to his character. If not, the dm is within his rights to say it's an untrained "speak language" check (int iirc) and make the player roll.

[Amphetryon]

Because the person's name is of dwarven origin, for example.

I actually support the DM on this one. Some tables reward player knowledge: there's an example in a book or faq somewhere of a party that meets a blackk dragon. It goes on to say that some tables would expect the players to separate their own knowledge from their charcters' knowledge and make a knowledge check. Other tables would reward the player for knowing that black dragons breathe acid, and let them plan accordingly. Neither is correct, they're just two different styles of gaming. In this case, the player may have known how to pronounce the name, and awarded that knowledge as bonus info to his character. If not, the dm is within his rights to say it's an untrained "speak language" check (int iirc) and make the player roll.

Pronounce "laboratory." I will not tell you whether I expect the British or American pronunciation until such time as you make your choice; I will penalize you should you guess incorrectly.

Sound fair?

[Fouredged Sword]

As someone with a hearing impediment, this would bother me if it came up in a game. I can't hear vowels correctly all the time, and thus I screw up my pronunciations of words I am not familiar with. I could see why you did what you did in game, but as a player I would feel singled out for my mild disability as I was the only person penalized by having to make a roll. I could see everyone being forced to make the check or nobody being made to make the check. Personal ability should not play into a role playing game.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While I dislike how the DM handled this (player knowledge vs character knowledge), I'm of the mind that no harm no foul.

The fact that the DM admitted that one check wasn't going to make or break the encounter certainly helps. He'll, we've had cases where Australian diplomats were greeted with the New Zealand flag and vice versa due to similarities. I could see a player making a faux pas in his pronunciation being a not uncommon occurrence, as far as what happens in regards to the characters. Maybe the noble has had that happen before: he may not like that, but it's not the first time since schmoe has accidentally insulted him.

[Magma Armor0]

Pronounce "laboratory." I will not tell you whether I expect the British or American pronunciation until such time as you make your choice; I will penalize you should you guess incorrectly.

Sound fair?

As long as you give me the context for where we're speaking, yes. If you tell me we're in India, for example, I might know that since India used to be a colony of Britain's they favor the British pronunciation. If you ask me how Cote d'Ivoire might pronounce it, I'd have no idea--I'm not aware of the cultural influences in that region's history.

Look at it this way: if you were a foreign diplomat going to meet the king of Nowhere, wouldn't the first thing you'd do be to figure out the guy's name and how to pronounce it? It's a sign of respect. It won't ruin the chance for a peaceful trade agreement, but it may well annoy the guy right from the get-go, and as they say: "First impressions matter." In-game, I'd probably implement a -2 circumstance penalty on the diplomacy check. I'm penalizing the player, but not dooming them.

[Jon_Dahl]

As long as you give me the context for where we're speaking, yes. If you tell me we're in India, for example, I might know that since India used to be a colony of Britain's they favor the British pronunciation. If you ask me how Cote d'Ivoire might pronounce it, I'd have no idea--I'm not aware of the cultural influences in that region's history.

Look at it this way: if you were a foreign diplomat going to meet the king of Nowhere, wouldn't the first thing you'd do be to figure out the guy's name and how to pronounce it? It's a sign of respect. It won't ruin the chance for a peaceful trade agreement, but it may well annoy the guy right from the get-go, and as they say: "First impressions matter." In-game, I'd probably implement a -2 circumstance penalty on the diplomacy check. I'm penalizing the player, but not dooming them.

I just realized something: the player knew the name three weeks before the session and he knew that he was going to need it and the name was important.

The PC (and PCs) had four days to prepare himself for the diplomatic encounter.

If he had said that "I'm going to make sure that I get that difficult name right", there's no chance in hell I would've made him roll anything. Four days of practice would've convinced me.

All right?

[Magma Armor0]

I just realized something: the player knew the name three weeks before the session and he knew that he was going to need it and the name was important.

The PC (and PCs) had four days to prepare himself for the diplomatic encounter.

If he had said that "I'm going to make sure that I get that difficult name right", there's no chance in hell I would've made him roll anything. Four days of practice would've convinced me.

All right?

In general, I agree to this, given two things:

1. The PC had access to the correct pronunciation, and not just a name on a page.

2. The name is not of a difficulty approaching that of Truespeak, which apparently, despite having pronounced the same phrase multiple times/day for the last 15 years, Truenamers still have a chance to mispronounce.

[mashlagoo1982]

The fantastic division of character knowledge and player knowledge.

Personally, I feel it doesn't matter what the players know (in this instance at least).
As the DM, if you say the name 100 times to the players, but in no way is it in any context where their characters would be able to learn the correct pronunciation, their character's do not possess that knowledge. So a check would be appropriate for the characters to properly say the names.

If the characters hear the proper pronunciation (epically if it is multiple times), there should be no check.

Regardless, there should still be an xp award.

[Amphetryon]

As long as you give me the context for where we're speaking, yes. If you tell me we're in India, for example, I might know that since India used to be a colony of Britain's they favor the British pronunciation. If you ask me how Cote d'Ivoire might pronounce it, I'd have no idea--I'm not aware of the cultural influences in that region's history.

Look at it this way: if you were a foreign diplomat going to meet the king of Nowhere, wouldn't the first thing you'd do be to figure out the guy's name and how to pronounce it? It's a sign of respect. It won't ruin the chance for a peaceful trade agreement, but it may well annoy the guy right from the get-go, and as they say: "First impressions matter." In-game, I'd probably implement a -2 circumstance penalty on the diplomacy check. I'm penalizing the player, but not dooming them.

I stated at the outset that the context would not be provided until after you made the roll, because - at the time I made the post - that contradicted none of the information provided in the OP. The character's Diplomacy, and relative Knowledge skills and checks, are thus important. The player being able to pronounce something correctly is quite a different matter.

Many of us have taken classes in a foreign language; many native speakers can immediately recognize a foreign accent speaking their native tongue. Is it your position that a diplomat who had spent more time in the world than you've spent playing in the campaign would not understand the nuances of speech, merely because your player's experience is less immersive than that of the character being portrayed (or, often, less immersive than a semester or three learning to speak said foreign language with supposed fluency)? Is it your position that a diplomat is going to be consistently treated more harshly for pronouncing a new name with his native accent, rather than the accent of the people with whom he's speaking?

[Magma Armor0]

I stated at the outset that the context would not be provided until after you made the roll, because - at the time I made the post - that contradicted none of the information provided in the OP. The character's Diplomacy, and relative Knowledge skills and checks, are thus important. The player being able to pronounce something correctly is quite a different matter.

Many of us have taken classes in a foreign language; many native speakers can immediately recognize a foreign accent speaking their native tongue. Is it your position that a diplomat who had spent more time in the world than you've spent playing in the campaign would not understand the nuances of speech, merely because your player's experience is less immersive than that of the character being portrayed (or, often, less immersive than a semester or three learning to speak said foreign language with supposed fluency)? Is it your position that a diplomat is going to be consistently treated more harshly for pronouncing a new name with his native accent, rather than the accent of the people with whom he's speaking?


Short answer: yes.

Long answer: Someone chosen to be a diplomat is chosen (or, at least, should be chosen because they are an expert on the culture/country they are serving as an ambassador to. With English as a notable exception (as a language created as an amalgamation of nine primary languages, and between 2 and 3 dozen secondary languages, it is a poor example), any diplomat visiting a country where the primary language is one that they have been trained for fluency in should be capable of pronouncing a name bestowed by that culture.

For example: I am fluent in Latin. If you put before me a Latin name, no matter how convoluted, the language has certain rules of pronunciation that can be followed to tell me exactly how to pronounce said name. If I were selected as an ambassador to a Latin-speaking country, thus declaring me to be one of the most educated people regarding that country (in my homeland), and I showed up ignorant of basic rules of pronunciation? That's not exactly going to inspire confidence. If a diplomat to Spain pronounces "Julio" as "Jew-leo," he loses a significant amount of credibility. After all, if he hasn't even bothered to put the time into learning a basic rule like that, how can he be expected to understand cultural nuances like rivalries between provinces, or regional superstitions?

If the player in question was not fluent in, trained in, or even familiar with the language and pronunciation in question, their basic competency will be placed in doubt. And while that impression can be disproved (by a masterful negotiation or a good Diplomacy roll), it still starts things off on the wrong foot.

I'd cite real-world examples, but many of them would get too close to discussing real-world politics, which is a bad idea for multiple reasons. (not the least of which is that it's against forum code)

[Amphetryon]

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: Someone chosen to be a diplomat is chosen (or, at least, should be chosen because they are an expert on the culture/country they are serving as an ambassador to. With English as a notable exception (as a language created as an amalgamation of nine primary languages, and between 2 and 3 dozen secondary languages, it is a poor example), any diplomat visiting a country where the primary language is one that they have been trained for fluency in should be capable of pronouncing a name bestowed by that culture.

For example: I am fluent in Latin. If you put before me a Latin name, no matter how convoluted, the language has certain rules of pronunciation that can be followed to tell me exactly how to pronounce said name. If I were selected as an ambassador to a Latin-speaking country, thus declaring me to be one of the most educated people regarding that country (in my homeland), and I showed up ignorant of basic rules of pronunciation? That's not exactly going to inspire confidence. If a diplomat to Spain pronounces "Julio" as "Jew-leo," he loses a significant amount of credibility. After all, if he hasn't even bothered to put the time into learning a basic rule like that, how can he be expected to understand cultural nuances like rivalries between provinces, or regional superstitions?

If the player in question was not fluent in, trained in, or even familiar with the language and pronunciation in question, their basic competency will be placed in doubt. And while that impression can be disproved (by a masterful negotiation or a good Diplomacy roll), it still starts things off on the wrong foot.

I'd cite real-world examples, but many of them would get too close to discussing real-world politics, which is a bad idea for multiple reasons. (not the least of which is that it's against forum code)

So, your answer ("Yes") is that a diplomat who had spent more time in the world than you've spent playing in the campaign would not understand the nuances of speech, merely because your player's experience is less immersive than that of the character being portrayed (or, often, less immersive than a semester or three learning to speak said foreign language with supposed fluency)?

I ask, because your longer version - above - in no rational way justifies that position by itself.

Incidentally, do you mean Classical Latin, or Liturgical Latin? The pronunciations are different. So. . . .

[Magma Armor0]

So, your answer ("Yes") is that a diplomat who had spent more time in the world than you've spent playing in the campaign would not understand the nuances of speech, merely because your player's experience is less immersive than that of the character being portrayed (or, often, less immersive than a semester or three learning to speak said foreign language with supposed fluency)?

I ask, because your longer version - above - in no rational way justifies that position by itself.

Allow me to rephrase then:

A trained diplomat should understand the nuances of speech in the region he is working, yes.

If the PC is a diplomat trained to serve in that particular region, then he should understand, no problem, no roll.

If the PC is not trained to be a diplomat in that particular region, then the above does not apply.

If the PC has spent 27 years as an ambassador to the elven lands, it won't help him pronounce the name of a dwarven king.

The only line I see regarding the PC's credentials is that the OP described him as,
"The player who had problems with pronunciation was the self-appointed spokesman. He wanted to speak, but wasn't able."

self-appointed spokesman does not suggest years of cultural study to me.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Of course, all this is moot if the player's character isn't a Barbarian (or has spent skill points) and has the appropriate language skill written down on his character sheet.

I would find it very silly if player #3's character is fluent in dwarven, and he suddenly has problems pronouncing Khazad-dûm. ("Kaahh-zed... Uh, dumb?" "Come on, Gimli.")

[Gnome Alone]

I honestly think it's kind of funny. Sure, a wee bit mean spirited, but that's your right as a DM sometimes. On an entirely different note, I have an idea, but how are they supposed to be pronounced?

Is it par-say-vu and ah-mi-day-o?

Meesa want know this too. Meesa find out, meesa gonna stop like Jar-Jar Binks.

Meesa guess is "par-ESS-eh-vuss" and "ah-moo-DYET-oh."

[Jon_Dahl]

Meesa want know this too. Meesa find out, meesa gonna stop like Jar-Jar Binks.

Meesa guess is "par-ESS-eh-vuss" and "ah-moo-DYET-oh."

The thing here is that we don't game in English and pronouncing things in our motherlanguage is so simple that it isn't even funny. The pronunciation is extremely regular and you simply know how things are pronounced, always and always. In my language, words like "come" and "home" rhyme. Simple as that.

I don't know how to write phonetically so that you (an English speaker?) would understand our pronunciation, but I will give it a try:
Pa-reh-seh-voh-ûs
Ah-muh-dih-eh-toh

My colleague, who is native in both English and my native language, approved my efforts.

[Killer Angel]

So... do casters in this game also make intelligence checks to pronounce verbal components? Maybe another check to remember how they cast spells?

It depends from circumstances. Curiously, the character must make a spellcraft check, to recognize a spell being cast by someone else, even if it's a spell you know.

If you character doesn't know the correct pronuntiation of a name (for example, because it's foreigner), an INT roll is required.
We colud debate about the Player's difficulty in pronuntiation, but the roll by itself, isn't outrageous.


Did you give him XP for properly pronouncing the name?

In D&D challenges are defined as a risk/reward scenario. If there is a chance of failure, then there must be a reward.

like, i don't know, a bonus in the diplomatic negotiations? :smallamused:

[Jon_Dahl]

The overall difficulty of the situation was taken into account and there will be an XP award. It will not be significant, since the DMG doesn't support that.

[Gnome Alone]

The thing here is that we don't game in English and pronouncing things in our motherlanguage is so simple that it isn't even funny. The pronunciation is extremely regular and you simply know how things are pronounced, always and always. In my language, words like "come" and "home" rhyme. Simple as that.

I don't know how to write phonetically so that you (an English speaker?) would understand our pronunciation, but I will give it a try:
Pa-reh-seh-voh-ûs
Ah-muh-dih-eh-toh

My colleague, who is native in both English and my native language, approved my efforts.

Okay, so, if I unnerstan' proper-like, looks like I was right except there's a hard "o" in Parecevous and "dih-eh" instead of "dyeht" in Amudieto. And yeah, I'm a native English speaker, otherwise I properly wouldn't feel comfortable doing such wicked awful things to it (e.g. Jar-Jar up there.)

[Vogonjeltz]

Pronounce "laboratory." I will not tell you whether I expect the British or American pronunciation until such time as you make your choice; I will penalize you should you guess incorrectly.

Sound fair?

Hah! I'm on to your game. It's Labradoodle.

We don't typically require players to remember information their character learns, nor is it expected that the character specifically know how to do something their character can do.

e.g. I don't need to know how to securely tie up an enemy for my character to Use Rope, nor would it help my character to do so if I did know how, because I am not my character.

If the information is something the player can describe (The name of the NPC we are talking to that our characters just heard 5 seconds ago) then they know it. Unless they want to roleplay that their character is forgetful, but that's really on the player.


2. The name is not of a difficulty approaching that of Truespeak, which apparently, despite having pronounced the same phrase multiple times/day for the last 15 years, Truenamers still have a chance to mispronounce.

To be fair to the Truespeak skill, it needs to be an exact pronunciation getting dozens of syllables exactly right in the right intonation and with the proper timing. That's not even remotely easy.

[atemu1234]

To be fair to the Truespeak skill, it needs to be an exact pronunciation getting dozens of syllables exactly right in the right intonation and with the proper timing. That's not even remotely easy.

Well, you should get a positive circumstance modifier at the very least. It seems pitiable othewise.

[HighWater]

I told him that there are two options:
- The PCs are able to pronounce all the names that the players are able to pronounce
- If the names seem hard to pronounce IRL, it may be that the PCs find them hard too. An intelligence check DC 10 is reguired to utter the names right.

Wait, are those two options? Because the "second option" is more a continuation of what happens if a player fumbles the "first option". They are not two options, but an "option" and a "consequence (the die may save you!)".

Judging which PC would have trouble doing something based on which PLAYER has trouble doing something is very dangerous territory indeed. ("I don't care your character has +20 in climb, I know you already get the shakes when you stand on a small stepladder. How about you climb a cliff-face first, before I say whether your character gets to climb that wall...)

I'd either have called for a DC10 CHA check (charisma is the stat for all speaking skills, NOT intelligence) for everyone involved, or no-one involved. (To be honest, proper adressing and pronounciation is part of the diplo roll, the player is only acting it out). Players direct the actions of their characters, but cannot be expected to physically perform what their characters do. Therefore, if their character can be reasonably expected to properly pronounce something (cause he's got a 14 in CHA and some ranks in diplomacy), it is really unfair to punish the player for choking on an in-game-word in real life.