Xykon's Army?

[Maerok]

How does a Sorceror get an army of the undead that big?

[factotum]

Through the power of Plot, of course... :smallsmile:

[JetTheOne]

Also most of Xykon's army is hobgoblins...

[RiOrius]

He also has a high-level evil Cleric helping him out with the raising: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html

[Sage in the Playground]

He's not a Sorcerer, he's a Lich.

[Closet_Skeleton]

He's not a Sorcerer, he's a Lich.

He's BOTH.

Welcome to the wonderful world of 3rd edition.

There are spells that let you control more undead. Also even if he has more undead that he can control mentally that doesn't mean they won't choose to follow him of their own will.

[Sage in the Playground]

He's BOTH.

Welcome to the wonderful world of 3rd edition.

There are spells that let you control more undead. Also even if he has more undead that he can control mentally that doesn't mean they won't choose to follow him of their own will.

Actually, never plaed D&D, I just like the comic.

[BisectedBrioche]

Actually, never plaed D&D, I just like the comic.

I also ride this train, though because of my love of reading fictional beasteries and lore I know the rules anyway.

[Sage in the Playground]

I also ride this train, though because of my love of reading fictional beasteries and lore I know the rules anyway.

I read a Second Edition Beastiary once.

[Vodun]

Well Xykon is very powerful, he has Redcloak helping out, and theres the assumption that lower level Hobgoblin cleric/wizard/sorcs are also raising dead. I think ghouls can actually spawn thier own kin, but not positive.

[Felius]

Also, major villains doesn't seem to follow the rules of leadership, and if if they did, he could have the undead leadership feat from the libris mortis

[Kreistor]

For those that might not understand this problem, a caster may only control a number of Hit Dice of Undead equal to 4x their caster level. So, Xykon, even if level 20, could only control 80HD of undead normally. Ghouls have 2HD each, so Xykon could in theory only control 40 ghouls. Redcloak tells Xykon that the Ghoul Horde has increased by 315.

Since Xykon had to be told of these ghouls, it is reasonable to think that he didn't cast the spells to create them. Redcloak can't control them all, so that must mean that there are casters amoungst the Hobgoblins.

Unfortunately, ghouls are only created using Level 6 spell. 315/4~=76 so there need to be 76HD of Level 11+ casters, or seven level 11 or higher Sorcerers, Wizards, or Clerics among Xykon's forces. That's a little steep. Xykon could create scrolls for lower level other casters to use, but that's very expensive.

Using the Undead Leadership feat, Xykon could control only 11 Ghouls with a Leadership score of 24 (very hard to get), so even that is nowhere near the magnitude necessary.

However...

Ghouls are intelligent, and fairly so. Ghouls can speak. Ghouls can create other Ghouls. Death by the disease in their bite raises the victim as a ghoul.

So, this suggests that the ghouls are either working willingly with Xykon or are being coersced into working with Xykon. The numbers are just too large for them to all be directly controlled by the casters on Xykon's side.

[kpenguin]

I ran into the same problem with a necromancer villian I was making for a campaign. After a couple of hours trying to tweak him so that he could control the undead army I wanted him to control, I finally thought "screw this, I'm the goddamn DM" and just gave him the army arbitrarily (still put Animate Dead, Control Undead, etc. on his spell list however). I think Rich did the same thing (replace DM with writer)

[SumGuy]

I think the old saying of Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, holds here. Just switch out Truth with Rules.

[BisectedBrioche]

Can't we just agree that the answer is simply "magic!"?

[JetTheOne]

Can't we just agree that the answer is simply "magic!"?

You know, we, the inhabitants of the Playground, cannot take the easy answer... it's very... ummm... un-Playgroundian?

[BisectedBrioche]

You know, we, the inhabitants of the Playground, cannot take the easy answer... it's very... ummm... un-Playgroundian?

But it is magic, what other ways can you create an army of the undead?
If you are seeing this in a quote, let it be known I will not rest until the smartarse who answers with references to Romero or a joke about some aspect of popular cultures users/fans being zombies has been impaled on many exceptionally sharp spikes.

[the_tick_rules]

well he was working on this army during the entire linear guild arc so that's a long time to cast an awful lot of animate deads.

[Kreistor]

well he was working on this army during the entire linear guild arc so that's a long time to cast an awful lot of animate deads.

Animate Dead doesn't create Ghouls, only skeletons and zombies. You need 6th level Create Undead.

[Innis Cabal]

a leadership score of 24 is not hard to get when a) your a sorcerer and shoudl have at level 20, which people seem to think Xykon is, you need to have a CHA of 20, that giving a +5 plus your level would be a minimum leadership score of 25 b) you are the big bad evil guy and have without a shadow of a doubt other casters that can take leadership, who then have cohorts who can take leader ship....making the army very large

[the_tick_rules]

well redcloak and xykon are both well capable of doing that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Or there's the spell General of Undeath; 8th level, 1/day per level duration, adds 10 times your caster level to the number of undead you can control. Pity it isn't core and is a cleric spell.

[Kreistor]

Leadership 24 only nets you 13 Ghouls. Where do the other 302 come from?

Even General of Undeath nets only 100, coming up well short.

[Querzis]

He is a lich sorcerer with lots of charisma who created most of them and give them food, why the hell would the ghouls not follow Xykon?

[Dausuul]

For the zombies, I'm guessing Xykon has a Second Edition version of Animate Dead that was house ruled in when the group made the switch to 3E. The ghouls are probably controlled by the threat of arcane nuclear death if they disobey, coupled with the promise of lots of tasty human flesh after the battle.

[SpartacusThe2nd]

Actually, never plaed D&D, I just like the comic.
no way!
but if it's true I might let my friends read the comic. :smallamused:

[Mewtarthio]

Redcloak's Crismon Mantle is a Major Artifact that lets him control an arbitrarily high number of undead.

[Innis Cabal]

its a plot point and dosnt follow the rules of the game, like many things in the comic

[GSFB]

Is Xykon for sure a sorcerer and not a wizard? I would have pegged him as a necromancer specialist.

[Carnus]

He could be a dread necromancer that became a complete lich! :D

[Nightmarenny]

Keep in mind he has a fair bit of Clerics helping him out. control undead and rebuking do wonders for math.

[Wizzardman]

Is Xykon for sure a sorcerer and not a wizard? I would have pegged him as a necromancer specialist.
Nope. He's a sorc. The comic said this for certain at one point.

[LordOfNarf]

Don't forget that Xykon isn't doing this all by him lonesome, he's got Redcloak and the Cleric Crew to help. Each evil cleric can control up to wice their hit die in undead. And don't forget, anything interllegent don'et actually need to be controled, it might just join Xykon on thier own.

[Mewtarthio]

Nope. He's a sorc. The comic said this for certain at one point.

Which brings up the totally unrelated question:

Why expend a valuable Spell Known on "Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage"?

[Nightmarenny]

Which brings up the totally unrelated question:

Why expend a valuable Spell Known on "Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage"?
Because any evil genius worth his spells has one:smallbiggrin:.

[Dausuul]

Because any evil genius worth his spells has one:smallbiggrin:.

Actually, if you could get the effect of Forcecage (imprisonment, no SR, no save) without the cost (1500 gp in material components), it'd totally be worth it, even if there were a way for the victim to escape after a couple of minutes.

And Xykon is specifically identified as a sorceror here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). Roy says it, the hobgoblin general confirms it, and the Oracle accepts it without complaint, which seems pretty conclusive. Besides, Xykon's behavior seems much more in line with a Charisma-based class than an Int-based one. :)