So, the Borderlands 1.75/Pre-Sequel is out...thoughts?

[SouthpawSoldier]

I'e only had time to burn a couple hours playing but impressions so far....

It's a BIG expansion to Borderlands 2. Viewed as a whole, there's nothing inspiring about the game. But where I find joy is in the little touches. Explosive decompression to crates outside of atmosphere. Running to vaccuum to extingush flames when hit with a burn effect. The changes in Wilhem's appearance and voice as he's augmented with artificial parts. Little things like that.

What I wish they'd done is at least include a character/class breakdown in the booklet. Claptrap isn't bad, but not as geared to solo play as some of the others.Getting an idea of what each character's design philosophy was before spending a couple hours to level enough for points in skill trees.

[Alex Knight]

Fragtrap is the awesome, and yes, he does have an ENTIRE TREE built on group play. That said, his explosion tree is pretty good for solo work, especially the Torgue Fiesta.

[SouthpawSoldier]

I love his lines, and Jack's reactions, but the whole "swap weapons every 90 seconds" program gets a bit irritating, epecially at low levels before unlocking the rest of the quick-swap menu. Skill choices feel like that matter a LOT more in this one than previous installments, which I dig. The turnoff to previous editions was farming for a specific iteration of a weapon or piece of loot to base builds around, whereas (so far) skill choices seem to be more central to character design.

I do wish they'd altered the narration to match solo play with characters other than Athena.

[NEO|Phyte]

I do wish they'd altered the narration to match solo play with characters other than Athena.

Well Nisha or Wilhelm can't be the narrator, considering they get a mild case of the dead in BL2, and if they framed solo play as not being done by the full group of hunters, why would they even be talking with Athena if she hadn't been involved?

Disregarding Claptrap because who would ever want to talk to him.

[factotum]

So it's a big expansion to Borderlands 2, which was itself little more than an overlarge DLC for the original game? Whoop-de-do, think I'll pass on this one, at least until Gearbox do something original with the franchise.

[NeoVid]

I'm really impressed. The improved pacing is a huge thing for me, the only bad part of BL2 was the long stretch of boredom at the start. Presequel gives you skills starting at level 3 and puts you in constant action. The side quests are also better designed, not taking you stupidly far out of your way with backtracking this time. It also fixed my other major complaint about BL2, which was how much harder it was to get high-rarity weapons than in BL1. I'm getting better drops faster than in BL2, and The Grinder is a thing of beauty.

The added personality of the characters is also pretty impressive, though mileage may vary. Fragtrap is turning out to be amazingly entertaining, but it's hard for me to stay interested in playing Wilhelm with how deadpan the guy is. The writing seems nearly on par with BL2, which was one of the best-written games of last year, though I won't be able to judge that for certain until I've finished the main storyline (no sign of Angel yet, for one thing...).

But so far, I'm actually playing it more intensely than I did BL2, which is saying something. Like BL2, Presequel so far has had its average moments be as good as the absolute best parts of the DLC from BL1, along with the gameplay and character loadouts be much better designed from the start... with the possible exception of Fragtrap, but then, he's designed pretty well to make the player base keep hating him.

[Legoshrimp]

So it's a big expansion to Borderlands 2, which was itself little more than an overlarge DLC for the original game? Whoop-de-do, think I'll pass on this one, at least until Gearbox do something original with the franchise.

Uhhhhhhhh good luck with ever buying a sequel.
I mean there are a bunch of new mechanics, but they didn't massively change the gameplay(probably because they wanted people to like the game...) Sequels generally aren't expected to be original since you know they are being made off of something....


So far I am liking it. The new mechanics are cool.
If anyone wants to play add me. Not sure how much I will be playing but currently have a level 10.

[Antonok]

So it's a big expansion to Borderlands 2, which was itself little more than an overlarge DLC for the original game? Whoop-de-do, think I'll pass on this one, at least until Gearbox do something original with the franchise.

Not quite. It takes place between the first and second. If you notice in the first one the moon is perfectly fine, in the second the moon is destroyed. This is the story of what happens to it, and Handsome Jack's rise to power.

[Legoshrimp]

Not quite. It takes place between the first and second. If you notice in the first one the moon is perfectly fine, in the second the moon is destroyed. This is the story of what happens to it, and Handsome Jack's rise to power.

I think he was complaining that they didn't change the gameplay massively.

[Geno9999]

Oh man, there are so many improvements the Pre-sequel has over BL2.

Gear lasts longer: I'm at level 33 and I'm still mopping the floor with a lvl 28 shotgun. There's a lot less pressure to upgrade your gear this time around.
O2 Kits: better mobility, and enemies often drop tons of O2, the environment has lots of spots to refill O2, and the slow rate of losing O2 in the first place means that you don't have to worry too much about resource management.
The Grinder: found a couple of class mods you can't use? Having trouble finding the right gun for you? Recycle your trash and turn it into something potentially better!
Vendors have better items: while the main stock is mostly whites, the Item of the Day almost never has anything less than a Blue item. Which, in turn, makes money actually worthwhile.
Moonstone > Eridium: Moonstone drops more often than Eridium did in BL2, and is used for more things other than accessing raid bosses or buying upgrades. Now you can purchase a 30-minute buff for yourself, open special chests, or use it on the Grinder to apply buffs/guarantee a best result item.

[Rodin]

I think he was complaining that they didn't change the gameplay massively.

It's a complaint shared by me, and after thinking for a bit I believe I can quantify it. It's the difference between Assassin's Creed 1 and Assassin's Creed 2 vs. AC2 and Brotherhood. The first Assassin's Creed was a good game that suffered from being obviously experimental. In the second, there was a massive qualitative upgrade in virtually all departments. Arguably the combat suffered, but that's about the only bad thing you could say - everything saw major changes for the better.

Then came Brotherhood. Ostensibly a sequel, virtually nothing changed in the base mechanics. It was the same game in a new location. Then came Revelations, and that suffered from the same problems. They didn't get any major changes in until the AC3, and even then the core gameplay suffered from being virtually identical to its predecessors. It's good gameplay, but unless you mix it up it gets dull.

That's how Borderlands 2 felt to me - it was very much "been there, done that". There wasn't anything to hold me there after all the time I spent in Borderlands 1. The base gameplay was still solid, and I got about halfway through it. But "more of the same" is not sufficient incentive to get me back for a third go.

[NeoVid]

You know, when you started making that comparison, I thought you were going to compare the difference between BL1 and 2 to the difference between AC1 and 2, like I would. Though to be honest, I'd say that Borderlands hit its stride with the General Knoxx DLC for the original.

[Alex Knight]

I love his lines, and Jack's reactions, but the whole "swap weapons every 90 seconds" program gets a bit irritating, epecially at low levels before unlocking the rest of the quick-swap menu.

Yeah, I've avoided the Fragmented Fragtrap tree so far and focused on Boomtrap.

[factotum]

That's how Borderlands 2 felt to me - it was very much "been there, done that". There wasn't anything to hold me there after all the time I spent in Borderlands 1.

That's exactly the point. I can't count how many hours I put into BL1, and I was so excited for the sequel that I pre-purchased the collector's edition (I still have the Marcus bobblehead on my desk upstairs)--and it was a crashing disappointment to just get "more of the same". I still put around 200 hours into BL2, so I definitely got my money's worth, but I just don't want to go through a third game which is still identical in terms of gameplay--I can go back and replay either of the previous two titles if I want to do that!

[ryuplaneswalker]

the core gameplay suffered from being virtually identical to its predecessors. It's good gameplay, but unless you mix it up it gets dull.

Now I am not going to Argue AC series is good, I pretty much loathe the entire set of games, but -assuming- a game has good core gameplay.

WHY change it? why mess with a good core of gameplay? Do you know where that leads us? *points at final fantasy* they had a good system until 10 where they started to much with the core game play and the only one that hasn't been a mess gameplay wise is X-2 where they gave us a Polished ATB system.

The way they mix the games up is by giving you different classes.

[Vitruviansquid]

Borderlands 1 was a fairly good game with some design flaws. As far as I'm concerned, Borderlands 2 perfected the Borderlands formula, so Borderlands 2 again isn't that terrible.

However, whenever I think about the Pre-sequel, I have this niggling feeling that it would've been so much cooler if it was released as an actual expansion pack rather than its own game. As long as they're not going to make any huge paradigm shifts, we could be playing Borderlands 2 with 10 classes, 2 new types of guns, and a busload of new quests and areas.

[Seatbelt]

I'm enjoying it. But it really is just more Borderlands. So if you're not excited for more Borderlands don't get it. *shrug*

[factotum]

WHY change it? why mess with a good core of gameplay?

Because there isn't enough variation in the Borderlands core gameplay to hold the interest for three games? It's basically an FPS with a few minor RPG elements and *one* activated ability your character can use to do something more than just run and gun, and in several cases (soldier and gunzerker for a start) the ability is just a slightly different variation of run and gun. They tried to change things up a bit with the DLC characters they added in 2, admittedly--the "anarchy stacks" the Mechromancer generates are a feature unique to her, which certainly made her a little more interesting than the others; however, she was still hobbled by having the same control scheme as everyone else, so one action (reloading) had to perform a whole variety of different things depending what you were doing and how many anarchy stacks you had.

It's entirely possible I wouldn't have been so down on B2 if I hadn't played the absolute death out of B1--I got every character into the 60s level wise, completed every single DLC with every single character, and thus found the fact B2 was largely more of the same to be a severe problem.

[darksolitaire]

Borderlands 1 was a fairly good game with some design flaws. As far as I'm concerned, Borderlands 2 perfected the Borderlands formula, so Borderlands 2 again isn't that terrible.

However, whenever I think about the Pre-sequel, I have this niggling feeling that it would've been so much cooler if it was released as an actual expansion pack rather than its own game. As long as they're not going to make any huge paradigm shifts, we could be playing Borderlands 2 with 10 classes, 2 new types of guns, and a busload of new quests and areas.

Word I'm thinking is a stand alone expansion. Sticking this all in BL2 would have probably been a bad idea. Year ago the Moon Base DLC was pretty much confirmed, then something happened and we got the Pre-sequel instead. This game isn't half bad, but suffers somewhat due to marketing it as a full game. Announcing the season pass and selling it before the game is even available reeks of cash grab, and I say this while owning all DLC for BL 1 and 2, pre-ordering pre-sequel and having even purchased few skin packs.

[NeoVid]

Well, there's a problem with getting expectations too high. Keep in mind that BL2 was so successful that Gearbox is intimidated by what a sequel would have to accomplish. (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/gearbox-president-scared-by-the-idea-of-borderland/1100-6421014/) If the choices are "more of the same" or "standards so high it never happens" I'll be kind of disappointed.

Only kind of, though. All I really ask for from a loot collection game like Diablo or Borderlands is a new set of loot and a new batch of characters to build while I'm killing dudes with it.

[Thiyr]

That's exactly the point. I can't count how many hours I put into BL1, and I was so excited for the sequel that I pre-purchased the collector's edition (I still have the Marcus bobblehead on my desk upstairs)--and it was a crashing disappointment to just get "more of the same". I still put around 200 hours into BL2, so I definitely got my money's worth, but I just don't want to go through a third game which is still identical in terms of gameplay--I can go back and replay either of the previous two titles if I want to do that!

I find that interesting, because I had something of the opposite experience. I played the first BL late into its lifetime, and it caught my interest for a while, but I couldn't finish it until BL2 was looming (because lazy). When BL2 hit, though, the polish on it made it a lot harder to put down. It didn't reinvent the game, but it took all the little things that felt...off, in the first game, and it tweaked them just enough to make it work better (most notably for me being the active skills. The cooldowns felt way too long, and the actual impact of the skills just...well, more often than not I forgot about the skills. BL2 felt like they dialed back the cooldowns, and gave the skills a bit more oomph, at least personally). And from what I've seen they did similar with Presequel. Haven't picked it up yet due to funds, but my biggest gripe was the slow start in 2 due to skills taking 5 levels to come online. Between that being fixed, the addition of new weapon types, having the skills seem even -more- impactful, and more straight-up new stuff, it seems like it didn't reinvent itself, but it did at least continue to refine what worked well and remove barricades to enjoyment.

That said, I can see the stand alone expansion thing. As mentioned by others before, reminds me of the assassin's creed 2 "expansions". The biggest thing I'm wondering, though, is where it -could- go to give us something new, instead of just further refinements on the formula?

[ryuplaneswalker]

Because there isn't enough variation in the Borderlands core gameplay to hold the interest for three games? It's basically an FPS with a few minor RPG elements and *one* activated ability your character can use to do something more than just run and gun, and in several cases (soldier and gunzerker for a start) the ability is just a slightly different variation of run and gun. They tried to change things up a bit with the DLC characters they added in 2, admittedly--the "anarchy stacks" the Mechromancer generates are a feature unique to her, which certainly made her a little more interesting than the others; however, she was still hobbled by having the same control scheme as everyone else, so one action (reloading) had to perform a whole variety of different things depending what you were doing and how many anarchy stacks you had.

It's entirely possible I wouldn't have been so down on B2 if I hadn't played the absolute death out of B1--I got every character into the 60s level wise, completed every single DLC with every single character, and thus found the fact B2 was largely more of the same to be a severe problem.

See, I view it completely differently, I prefer something that I am going to spend 60 dollars on(that is a great deal for me, 8.80/HR does not lend itself to spare money) to be something I know will be entertaining, and generally I play for solid gameplay and good plot.

If you are trying to do something new, good...but make sure it works before you do it. Heck this is my general complaint about MMOs they all try to "Innovate" in the same way and none of them make sure the darn innovations work *glares at champions online and the horrid blocking system*

[Gaelbert]

That said, I can see the stand alone expansion thing. As mentioned by others before, reminds me of the assassin's creed 2 "expansions". The biggest thing I'm wondering, though, is where it -could- go to give us something new, instead of just further refinements on the formula?

Non-cooperative multiplayer. Bam.
There obviously would be a lot of issues but I like the feel of the gunplay and movement system, so it could be fun.

[factotum]

See, I view it completely differently, I prefer something that I am going to spend 60 dollars on(that is a great deal for me, 8.80/HR does not lend itself to spare money) to be something I know will be entertaining, and generally I play for solid gameplay and good plot.

And that's what I really don't understand, because if you just want to play the same game again, you could just play the original one? That costs you nothing, and it's not like the plotlines in the Borderlands series are so goshwow amazing that you can justify the purchase for them alone.

[BRC]

Because there isn't enough variation in the Borderlands core gameplay to hold the interest for three games? It's basically an FPS with a few minor RPG elements and *one* activated ability your character can use to do something more than just run and gun, and in several cases (soldier and gunzerker for a start) the ability is just a slightly different variation of run and gun. They tried to change things up a bit with the DLC characters they added in 2, admittedly--the "anarchy stacks" the Mechromancer generates are a feature unique to her, which certainly made her a little more interesting than the others; however, she was still hobbled by having the same control scheme as everyone else, so one action (reloading) had to perform a whole variety of different things depending what you were doing and how many anarchy stacks you had.

It's entirely possible I wouldn't have been so down on B2 if I hadn't played the absolute death out of B1--I got every character into the 60s level wise, completed every single DLC with every single character, and thus found the fact B2 was largely more of the same to be a severe problem.
Eh, Whatchugonnado.

I havn't really been able to bring myself to do mutliple Borderlands playthroughs, but when I do play the game I have a blast with it.

I'm reaching the end of The Pre-Sequel, it's pretty fun. It's more Borderlands. There are more changes gameplay-wise between this and BL2 than between BL1 and BL2, with the lower gravity and jumping-based stuff. That said, I've died way too many times trying to get across the random chasms all over the map only to find out that no, I can't make that jump.

That said, I really do like how they have the Vault Hunters talk in this one, it can come across as a bit awkward sometimes, but it's still pretty fun. I've only ever played Athena, who is kind of a straight man to the goofier NPCs, so I don't know how well the other characters work.

[The_Jackal]

Let's not overblow what this game really is: It's a secondary title by a different (a.k.a. house) studio. Gearbox's only direct contribution to the game was in some of the writing. Borderlands 3 is probably still out there in early development by the Gearbox team, but this is 2K Games exercising its legal right to squeeze the IP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property)for some ready cash, much in the same way that Activision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activision)pumped out six or so Call of Duty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Duty) (developed by Infinity Ward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_Ward)) titles via their wholly owned subsidiary, Treyarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treyarch).

This is NO different. If you really GOTTA have more Borderlands, here you go. Treat it like a big chunk of DLC, or, if you're more of an old school fellow, an expansion pack.

[JediSoth]

I think full-price is a bit much for what this game ultimately is, but I did pre-order it...

Still, it's fun. I like the low-G jumping and the cryo weapons. I like the new NPCs and the Moon Zoomy vehicles. I LOVE Boganella (I never kept the Bane; I feel bad when I'm not using Boganella). I hate Kraggons and I still hate Stalkers. I hate Hyperion even more now. Apparently, they MADE the stalkers... jerks!

Mister Torgue is always gold but this game doesn't have enough of him, though. Explosions?

It's not worth $60, but I'm not sorry I bought it. I probably won't play it as much as I did BL2. Time (and DLC) will tell. Once I finish my Athena playthrough, I will play at least once more as Claptrap, maybe even once for each character since I no longer feel obligated to play through twice to get TVHM (maybe I'll play through TVHM once). I only solo, so apart from extra dialog, I don't see the value in TVHM for every character I have.

[Legoshrimp]

And that's what I really don't understand, because if you just want to play the same game again, you could just play the original one? That costs you nothing, and it's not like the plotlines in the Borderlands series are so goshwow amazing that you can justify the purchase for them alone.

It isn't the same game tho, it has similar gameplay, but there have been improvements/changes to the gameplay. There are new abilities, a different story, new weapons, new npcs, new mechanics, and borderlands story isn't amazing but its sense of humor is good, and a large part of why people like the game, so more of it is an improvement. Also I think your argument is that you shouldn't play 90% of games because they are a derivative of some other game with some other game.

Also multiplayer borderlands very likely wouldn't work without remvoing the loot system. I don't think there are really any games that have this sort of loot system, and gameplay that has any actual pvp. It would be pretty impossible to really balance the loot system around pve and pvp without one of them suffering massively, and I am not sure there is really any way to get this sort of RNG based loot to be balanced in a fully pvp game.

[NeoVid]

And that's what I really don't understand, because if you just want to play the same game again, you could just play the original one? That costs you nothing, and it's not like the plotlines in the Borderlands series are so goshwow amazing that you can justify the purchase for them alone.

In my case, it's because the original had the least fun characters to play, and the main storyline was a slog, which wasn't a problem for me at all in BL2. BL1 only kept me playing enough to get two characters to cap, while I have 4 characters in Ultimate Vault Hunter mode in BL2, and I'm still nowhere near done with them.

Also, I thought BL2 was one of the best written games I played last year, along with Saint's Row 4. Which drove me to ask, "What kind of world are we living in where Borderlands and Saint's Row are the smartest games of the year?"

The immediate answer I was given was "An awesome one."

[Thiyr]

Non-cooperative multiplayer. Bam.
There obviously would be a lot of issues but I like the feel of the gunplay and movement system, so it could be fun.

Ehh...For the looty-clicky type games (so BL, diablo, etc), I've yet to see a good way of implementing non-coop multiplayer that wasn't just "the same game but you're soloing at different parts" or "duels". The former doesn't seem like what you're looking for afaict, and the latter's been there since the start. Maybe they could add setting a pvp flag so you can do larger-scale pvp, but that's...well, I'd find that to be even smaller than what they gave us. Maybe dedicated multiplayer zones, but...I get the feeling that just wouldn't work given the style of game we have. Unless they gave us a more mmo-styled matchmaking for it, and even then I don't know how big of a change that would be.

Idunno, I guess I just feel like barring engine changes, refining what they have and adding new mechanics is about as far as they can go without gutting it and starting from scratch, or giving us a new game in the same 'verse.

Oh. Hi there Tales From The Borderlands, I was just vaguely alluding to you. How's it going?

[SanguisAevum]

My major gripe with BL2 was Enemy scaling and damage at higher levels.

IE... During re-plays, at higher levels... the scaling for enemies was basically... they do more damage and have more HP.

Meaning you had to rely on a lifesteal weapon and the 50% health-gate mechanic to not get insta-gibbed and stay alive.

Has this changed at all?


Also... how is the "grinding" for gear? In the end, i felt as though i was playing a FPS version of World of Warcraft... Is this any different?

[GungHo]

Also... how is the "grinding" for gear? In the end, i felt as though i was playing a FPS version of World of Warcraft... Is this any different?
Diablo is probably a better fit for your metaphor, but gear grinding is one of the central conceits of Borderlands. So, no. It's still a glorified slot machine. It's a fun one, but they had a slot machines within the overall slot machine in Borderlands 2 and I'm pretty sure that was a less than subtle nod and wink at the fourth wall... along with all the other nods and winks.

[Geno9999]

My major gripe with BL2 was Enemy scaling and damage at higher levels.

IE... During re-plays, at higher levels... the scaling for enemies was basically... they do more damage and have more HP.

Meaning you had to rely on a lifesteal weapon and the 50% health-gate mechanic to not get insta-gibbed and stay alive.

Has this changed at all?
I think so, all the characters have their own form of easy health recovery that reduces the need to carry around a Moxxi weapon (which I think there's only two of now: the Probe pistol, and the Vibra-pulse Shock laser.) The new Cyro element, while nice (immobilizes enemies, gives them a DoT, and increases the Critical Damage,) it doesn't feel like a requirement like Slag did at higher levels. In addition, the exponential scaling is significantly reduced, so you don't have to replace your gear as much.


Also... how is the "grinding" for gear? In the end, i felt as though i was playing a FPS version of World of Warcraft... Is this any different?
Not too different, but with the new grinder, you can effectively reroll the loot you picked up into something that's hopefully more useful to you. Not quite weapon crafting, but it's better than only selling them for money.

[Socratov]

I pre-ordered the game when it was available for pre-order. but I have had only enough time to play since this weekend. I must say this part int eh series is the best yet. I agree with people being (slightly) disappointed with part 2. y big point was the lack of a gunslinger. in BL2 (when I buccaneered the game for solo reasons) I fell in love with gunslinger mordecai. I ended with walking around with a volcanic and caustic sniper and 2shot revolvers. At the end of the DLC's max out gunslinger tree first, then getting to the sniper tree. My routine was snipe everything, then wade in guns blazing. doubletap and high reload made sure I killed just about everything in seconds. The only thing sucking about Mordecai was his action skill. Useless.


there was no such character in BL2. Zero was fun, but lacking in both personality and balls-deep gunslingeriness. And the others had no feel for what I wanted. Until Gaige. Gaige, however was hard to snowball. the loss of stacks at just about every opportunity was bad for me. did like her playstyle though...

but now, now I have Nisha. and nisha is everything I wanted. lvl 14 now and very happy. I am very much waiting for the guns Akimbo moment at which point I guess I'll never use another type of weapon again...Gonna need massive amounts of pistol bullets though, and I will probably keep a sniper on hand. And her action skill is so freaking awesome that I am thinking of reassigning one of my mouse buttons as hotkey. it's finally not an oh-crap-button, but bread and butter. Love it. so much I want to have its babies. Oh, and I adore the whole ozkit gameplay and the physics on the moon. they really rock, and have, while keeping Borderlands borderlands, really added something to the game.

[Burley]

Normally, I'm a Sniper and Revolver kinda guy in Borderlands. Especially in the first game, I almost never had a reason to use anything else.
Borderlands 2, I played pretty much the same way, but with more focus on elemental effects, since robots were just flippin' everywhere by mid-game.

The Pre-sequel? I find myself keeping at least one of each weapon type and definitely one of each element, at all times.

I will say that I'm having too much fun playing this game. It's lived up to all my expectations. I found that, though I was most excited about Nisha, I've had the most fun playing as Claptrap. The Fragmented Fragtrap tree is so much fun. It could be that it keeps me paying attention to my active skills (kill skills/damage skills), or that it keeps me from relying on one powerful weapon that I luck into, or maybe just that it makes me value the loot I find. I dunno. I just like it.

I know it seems like the Pre-Sequel doesn't change much, but it really does. The Grinder means that every item that drops has value potential. After level 5, you never look at white weapons and, by level 15, you almost never look at green weapons. But, The Grinder makes you think "Well, I have two blue shotguns in my bank, I have two green shotguns and two white shotguns in my bag. If I find another green or white shotgun, I can grind them all up and get a purple." It gives the player a reason to hang onto equipment. Also, that Arms War mission makes white drops relevant for a while.

Also, this game adds platforms. Sure, BL2 had me wondering if I could jump off that ammo crate, onto that locker, onto that little bar in the wall and onto the ceiling vents to reach areas that may or may not have loot. But, the Pre-Sequel constantly has loot crates on top of buildings, on isolated platforms, etc. The platforming elements of low-gravity change the dynamics of the game, allowing you to more easily escape an area when pinned down, or to find sniper nests. It also offers more mobile enemies, which, for the first time, means constantly checking your Z-axis. The mini-map marks when enemies are at a significantly different elevation than you, so, you aren't really caught off guard, but you still have to prioritize what enemies you take out first, or you may find yourself Fighting-for-your-Life with enemies flying around you, which are super hard to track when your camera wants to pan down.

Also, I think they made this one more accepting of 4-player campaigns. Each character has one skill tree that is obviously geared toward multiplayer. The first game didn't really have that, the second did for the most part, but this one gives everybody a chance to heal/buff/change gameplay when playing in a team.

Finally, I'd like to say that, while the game is pretty similar to BL2, I wouldn't call it just a large DLC or expansion. There are as many gameplay changes between BL1 and BL2 as there have been here. The enemies are more dynamic and mobile than they were. The game (in my experience) feels less grindy, thanks to the Grinder, and I have only re-fought a boss because I needed to get to the area on the other side of them and they were in my way. (This may be luck, but I feel like I find legendaries more often than I did in BL2, also. Not a concrete point, but it still makes me feel like I don't need to boss-grind as much.)

[Squark]

I know this thread is technically for the pre-sequel, but the general convention is to combine all threads for a particular franchise into one, so I thought I'd ask here. If I get to level 51 or 52 in True Vault hunter mode (because I'm a completionist), am I going to screw myself over when I start playing Ultimate Vault Hunter mode in 2?

[Alex Knight]

Nope. UVHM starts their bad guys around there anyway.

[darksolitaire]

Yeah. Ultimate scales enemies so that bad asses are one level and bosses two levels above you. But then again Ultimate screws you over in so many ways that it's minor. I first started Ultimate as level 56 Salvador. After Boom Bewm I turned around and quick travelled to Tiny Tina's imagination to get Grog Nozzle. :smallannoyed:

[Geno9999]

Ideally you want to go into UVHM at level 50, so 51-52 shouldn't be too problematic. Though as darksolitaire noted, going into UVHM at 55+ will scale the enemies to your character, but unless you've used the Golden Chest to give yourself some fresh weapons, even lvl 50 Legendary weapons start to lag behind.

[Calemyr]

Question on the loyalty bonus for the Pre-Sequel. I didn't know this was a thing until I started the game. I have both games, but I recently replaced my harddrive and didn't have Borderlands 1 installed anymore. I then installed it and played it for a few levels to create a save, but the Pre-Sequel doesn't recognize that. Has anyone heard about how to fix that?

[BRC]

Can we talk story a bit, I've beaten the game and I have some thoughts.

Specifically Jack.
When the game starts he's John, he's got a hero complex and is a bit of an ass, but is ultimately has good intentions. He thinks it's a good idea to BUILD a giant death laser, but he hasn't used it yet. I wouldn't call him a Good Person, but this is Borderlands, a decent number of the "Heroic" cast would be total monsters anywhere else.

By the end of the game, he's Handsome Jack.

Now, it seemed like they were kind of trying to tell two stories here. In one story, John's decent into being Jack was inevitable. He laughs at claptraps dying, builds giant death lasers, and manipulates vault hunters into unleashing the Destroyer in order to make a profit after all. The story is him, through a series of decisions that seem reasonable, even necessary, in the moment (Killing the Merriff, overwriting Felicity, Killing the Scientists) turn into the monster that is Handsome Jack.
In the other story, Lillith and Moxxi are responsible for Handsome Jack. They betray and almost kill him. At the last moment, Lillith destroys the thing in the Vault, which seemed to be directly interfacing with Jack's mind at the time. The implication being that when the vault symbol was destroyed, it had some direct impact on Jack's psyche (And also his face).

So yeah, is this a case of Lillith being responsible for jack, or just failing to stop him?

[Burley]

Question on the loyalty bonus for the Pre-Sequel. I didn't know this was a thing until I started the game. I have both games, but I recently replaced my harddrive and didn't have Borderlands 1 installed anymore. I then installed it and played it for a few levels to create a save, but the Pre-Sequel doesn't recognize that. Has anyone heard about how to fix that?

If you delete the player profile and character files (because they won't work without the player profile), you can get the bonus. However, the bonus is just two very bright yellow/orange skins and I think 40 moonstones. The only skin worth having is the Vladof Hammer, anyway. :smalltongue:

[SouthpawSoldier]

If you delete the player profile and character files (because they won't work without the player profile), you can get the bonus. However, the bonus is just two very bright yellow/orange skins and I think 40 moonstones. The only skin worth having is the Vladof Hammer, anyway. :smalltongue:

I got a crapton of B.A. points, and Moonstones + 2 blue weapons for every new character I've started (Revolver and Shotgun).

[NEO|Phyte]

Can we talk story a bit, I've beaten the game and I have some thoughts.

Specifically Jack.
When the game starts he's John, he's got a hero complex and is a bit of an ass, but is ultimately has good intentions. He thinks it's a good idea to BUILD a giant death laser, but he hasn't used it yet. I wouldn't call him a Good Person, but this is Borderlands, a decent number of the "Heroic" cast would be total monsters anywhere else.

By the end of the game, he's Handsome Jack.

Now, it seemed like they were kind of trying to tell two stories here. In one story, John's decent into being Jack was inevitable. He laughs at claptraps dying, builds giant death lasers, and manipulates vault hunters into unleashing the Destroyer in order to make a profit after all. The story is him, through a series of decisions that seem reasonable, even necessary, in the moment (Killing the Merriff, overwriting Felicity, Killing the Scientists) turn into the monster that is Handsome Jack.
In the other story, Lillith and Moxxi are responsible for Handsome Jack. They betray and almost kill him. At the last moment, Lillith destroys the thing in the Vault, which seemed to be directly interfacing with Jack's mind at the time. The implication being that when the vault symbol was destroyed, it had some direct impact on Jack's psyche (And also his face).

So yeah, is this a case of Lillith being responsible for jack, or just failing to stop him?

We can only speculate on how Jack would have reacted to the knowledge of the Elpis vault under the decidedly less anger-filled situation of not having an assassination attempt from an ex girlfriend, but it's mostly certain that he wouldn't have gone full pump his daughter full of eridium to charge this vault key so he can kill all the bandits indiscriminately with the warrior. Most likely, his eyes would explode into money symbols at the realization that there are so many vaults to be looted. Given his orbital death laser, since it would still exist in an alternate universe where it isn't converted into a singularity to try and kill Jack, the warrior itself would be a scientific curiosity at best.

:edit: Basically, yes, Lilith and Moxxi are very much responsible for the Jack we all know and hate, but it's hard to say how much better he'd have been without their interference. The Merrif alone unhinged him pretty notably, considering the hyperion science team's fate.

[Burley]

We can only speculate on how Jack would have reacted to the knowledge of the Elpis vault under the decidedly less anger-filled situation of not having an assassination attempt from an ex girlfriend, but it's mostly certain that he wouldn't have gone full pump his daughter full of eridium to charge this vault key so he can kill all the bandits indiscriminately with the warrior. Most likely, his eyes would explode into money symbols at the realization that there are so many vaults to be looted. Given his orbital death laser, since it would still exist in an alternate universe where it isn't converted into a singularity to try and kill Jack, the warrior itself would be a scientific curiosity at best.

:edit: Basically, yes, Lilith and Moxxi are very much responsible for the Jack we all know and hate, but it's hard to say how much better he'd have been without their interference. The Merrif alone unhinged him pretty notably, considering the hyperion science team's fate.

Also, keep in mind the ECHOs found outside Jack's office. Whether they are actually talking about Jack's origins or the Clone Jack/Possible DLC character, we can still assume that Hyperion has a reason for experimenting on people and having Jack(s) around.

Of course, Jack hired the Vault Hunters to find the vault, but things became more "Save the Laser, Save the World" when the Lost Legion attacks Helios. After you revive Jack in the beginning, he says he has never been shot at before, but that it was "kinda fun." I cite that as the beginning of his move from "trying to get a promotion" to "hero complex" to "corrupt corporation rulerman." So, while Moxxi and Lilith did stab Jack in the back, he already proved that he's a sociopath when he has you shoot a missle at Pandora just to deface a statue.

And, Jack isn't the only person who hates Claptraps. I mean, Sir Hammerlock is pretty malicious about it.

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm pretty sure Claptrap is the only one that doesn't hate claptrap, so hating him isn't really any sort of indicator of being a bad person.

[Squark]

I'm pretty sure Claptrap is the only one that doesn't hate claptrap, so hating him isn't really any sort of indicator of being a bad person.

Roland and Angel are generally respectful of him. Granted, they're also two of the nicest characters in the game, so, yeah, not an indicator of being a bad person.

[GenericMook]

I beat the game pretty recently, and I've got one thing on my mind.

That part where you have to wipe Felicity in order to create the robot?

Damn, that was dark. I stopped playing the game for almost a week because of that. My co-worker and I (we play co-op BL every now and then) think it's probably the most jarring part of the game. I'm still not wanting to do a second playthrough because I know that it's going to happen.

See, we aren't emotionally invested in the Meriff. We know he runs Concordia... and that's it.

We aren't invested in the scientists. We rescue them, get some dialogue, and that's it.

Not much to say about both of them. Jack kills them off pretty ruthlessly, but it isn't nearly as jarring, because we don't get to know them. We don't spend what, two to three missions with dialogue from them.

Felicity's death, though? It's a boss fight. The worst part is that we get dialogue throughout the whole mission (after rescuing that robotics dude) about it, and prior dialogue with Felicity as a part of the team.

Anyone else feel that way?

[Burley]

I beat the game pretty recently, and I've got one thing on my mind.

That part where you have to wipe Felicity in order to create the robot?

Damn, that was dark. I stopped playing the game for almost a week because of that. My co-worker and I (we play co-op BL every now and then) think it's probably the most jarring part of the game. I'm still not wanting to do a second playthrough because I know that it's going to happen.

See, we aren't emotionally invested in the Meriff. We know he runs Concordia... and that's it.

We aren't invested in the scientists. We rescue them, get some dialogue, and that's it.

Not much to say about both of them. Jack kills them off pretty ruthlessly, but it isn't nearly as jarring, because we don't get to know them. We don't spend what, two to three missions with dialogue from them.

Felicity's death, though? It's a boss fight. The worst part is that we get dialogue throughout the whole mission (after rescuing that robotics dude) about it, and prior dialogue with Felicity as a part of the team.

Anyone else feel that way?

I felt the same way. The general consensus for the Borderlands universe seems to be that AI is completely expendable. Look at the way Claptraps are treated. There was an entire DLC devoted to Claptraps rising up against such tyranny, but, at the end, nobody learns a lesson.

I've had a problem with violent games most of my life for this very reason. Yes, Felicity is a likable character and we see growth in her dialogue and a real fear of Jack's impetus. But, I didn't really feel a twinge when I killed General Knox, or Red Belly, or any other "villain," even though many bosses are only upset because you're on their turf. So, why should we care about this other character? Is it because we aren't killing the character, but removing their identity? And, should we feel bad about this, when there are multiple references when playing Claptrap to his mind being mostly erased to make room for his skill trees and gun usage drives.
Anyway, I've had a problem with violent games because we will just go shoot what the game tells us to shoot because we want "grinder parts." I enjoy Borderlands for statistics and PRG elements, but sometimes, I can't deal with the fact that, as much as Forza is a driving simulator, this is a murder simulator. Now, I'm mostly okay with it because of the lack of verisimilitude.

So, I think what it comes down to is:
Yes, the thing with Felicity felt weird, but I think it feels weird because we're removing her individuality and not killing her, especially as she was a damsel in distress sort of rescue before we learned she was an AI. The Borderlands games usually have one or two good "mindblown" parts in each. This is one of them.

[Alex Knight]

Can we talk story a bit, I've beaten the game and I have some thoughts.

Specifically Jack.
When the game starts he's John, he's got a hero complex and is a bit of an ass, but is ultimately has good intentions. He thinks it's a good idea to BUILD a giant death laser, but he hasn't used it yet. I wouldn't call him a Good Person, but this is Borderlands, a decent number of the "Heroic" cast would be total monsters anywhere else.

By the end of the game, he's Handsome Jack.

Now, it seemed like they were kind of trying to tell two stories here. In one story, John's decent into being Jack was inevitable. He laughs at claptraps dying, builds giant death lasers, and manipulates vault hunters into unleashing the Destroyer in order to make a profit after all. The story is him, through a series of decisions that seem reasonable, even necessary, in the moment (Killing the Merriff, overwriting Felicity, Killing the Scientists) turn into the monster that is Handsome Jack.
In the other story, Lillith and Moxxi are responsible for Handsome Jack. They betray and almost kill him. At the last moment, Lillith destroys the thing in the Vault, which seemed to be directly interfacing with Jack's mind at the time. The implication being that when the vault symbol was destroyed, it had some direct impact on Jack's psyche (And also his face).

So yeah, is this a case of Lillith being responsible for jack, or just failing to stop him?



Well....funny thing. See, Moxxi and Lilith try to kill Jack because they believe (correctly) that he's a psychopath. We know from BL2 that Jack basically imprisoned his own daughter in a computer core setup and he manipulated the events of BL1. These are not the acts of a hero.

While Lilith and Moxxi of course don't know about Jack's manipulations in BL 1 (yet), they see enough to realize they can't trust him with power. So yeah, I think this is a case of Lilith failing to stop what was coming.

[darksolitaire]

Well....funny thing. See, Moxxi and Lilith try to kill Jack because they believe (correctly) that he's a psychopath. We know from BL2 that Jack basically imprisoned his own daughter in a computer core setup and he manipulated the events of BL1. These are not the acts of a hero.


It's implied that Angel killed her mother by accident, so it's possible that imprisoning her at the time was a right thing to do.

Now, pumping her full of Eridium for profit most certainly is not.

When I contrast Jack to the rest of BL-verse, I think that he isn't actually any worse then your run-of-the-mill psycho bandit. He's just much more successful, dangerous and operates in larger scale.

[Alex Knight]

It's implied that Angel killed her mother by accident, so it's possible that imprisoning her at the time was a right thing to do.

Now, pumping her full of Eridium for profit most certainly is not.

When I contrast Jack to the rest of BL-verse, I think that he isn't actually any worse then your run-of-the-mill psycho bandit. He's just much more successful, dangerous and operates in larger scale.


Except the only source for that is Jack himself, hardly an unbiased source.

[NEO|Phyte]

It's implied that Angel killed her mother by accident, so it's possible that imprisoning her at the time was a right thing to do.

Now, pumping her full of Eridium for profit most certainly is not.

When I contrast Jack to the rest of BL-verse, I think that he isn't actually any worse then your run-of-the-mill psycho bandit. He's just much more successful, dangerous and operates in larger scale.

It should be noted that the eridium pumping only happened after the events of TPS suplexed him over the edge. Given his bitching about all the unarmed workers on Hyperion getting killed plus his yelling at Zarpadon about all the innocents she was going to murder via moonsplosion, he had some degree of decency in him, so I suspect that Angel's living conditions were probably as pleasant as possible. Once he realized he needed to speedcharge the vault key if he wanted to enact his revenge on the vault hunters and moxxi, however...

He was never heading for bright shining beacon of morality hero, but before the big betrayal, he at least was lacking overtly malevolent motives. He works for a megacorp, greed is practically a job requirement.

[darksolitaire]

Except the only source for that is Jack himself, hardly an unbiased source.


There's old echo recording, and there's voice message from Jack to Vault Hunters when you get to the bridge to info-stockade. That particular message is also interesting in that Jack feels the need to justify himself to the Vault Hunters.


It should be noted that the eridium pumping only happened after the events of TPS suplexed him over the edge. Given his bitching about all the unarmed workers on Hyperion getting killed plus his yelling at Zarpadon about all the innocents she was going to murder via moonsplosion, he had some degree of decency in him, so I suspect that Angel's living conditions were probably as pleasant as possible. Once he realized he needed to speedcharge the vault key if he wanted to enact his revenge on the vault hunters and moxxi, however...


Aye. Jack doesn't need to act around Pre-Sequal Vault Hunters, so we can assume that his reactions are genuine.

RE: Angel

Remember when you get to meet Angel in BL2? What struck me was how great shape she was in. I would have expected her to be either overweight due to lack of exercise, or have atrophied muscles.

[The Glyphstone]

There's old echo recording, and there's voice message from Jack to Vault Hunters when you get to the bridge to info-stockade. That particular message is also interesting in that Jack feels the need to justify himself to the Vault Hunters.



Aye. Jack doesn't need to act around Pre-Sequal Vault Hunters, so we can assume that his reactions are genuine.

RE: Angel

Remember when you get to meet Angel in BL2? What struck me was how great shape she was in. I would have expected her to be either overweight due to lack of exercise, or have atrophied muscles.


I figured some sort of electrical muscle stimulation in addition to the eridium injections. Because if you're already poisoning your daughter with liquid alien plutonium, what's a little harmless electroshock therapy/torture to go with it?

[BRC]

There's old echo recording, and there's voice message from Jack to Vault Hunters when you get to the bridge to info-stockade. That particular message is also interesting in that Jack feels the need to justify himself to the Vault Hunters.



Aye. Jack doesn't need to act around Pre-Sequal Vault Hunters, so we can assume that his reactions are genuine.

RE: Angel

Remember when you get to meet Angel in BL2? What struck me was how great shape she was in. I would have expected her to be either overweight due to lack of exercise, or have atrophied muscles.

I wouldn't count on Borderlands to feature realistic representation of the effects of prolonged inactivity on the human body.

As for Angel, Jack built the Jar on Pandora, so Angel can't be there yet. We don't know where she is in TPS, potentially somewhere on the station. She might be sealed away somewhere.

A thing to note is that Jack DOES care about Angel. He's crazy, but he does care about her. I have a feeling her life was probably pretty comfortable before he decided to use her to supercharge the vault key.

Now, her Siren Powers are not clearly defined, but seem to let her interface with technology remotely in some way. So even isolated and living comfortably, Jack could be using her abilities to his advantage without putting her in the jar. In fact, we know he did just that.

By the events of BL2, the idea of putting Angel in a jar and pumping her full of so much eridium that she would die without it probably didn't seem too crazy to Jack. He had always kept her safe while exploiting her abilities. Judging by what happened with Lillith, Angel would have survived the process, and she didn't seem especially uncomfortable until you start breaking the injectors. Re-Watching that fight, Angel seems to be helping you more due to outrage over Jack's actions than because she feels that Jack has been mistreating her.

[Squark]

I wouldn't count on Borderlands to feature realistic representation of the effects of prolonged inactivity on the human body.

As for Angel, Jack built the Jar on Pandora, so Angel can't be there yet. We don't know where she is in TPS, potentially somewhere on the station. She might be sealed away somewhere.

A thing to note is that Jack DOES care about Angel. He's crazy, but he does care about her. I have a feeling her life was probably pretty comfortable before he decided to use her to supercharge the vault key.

Now, her Siren Powers are not clearly defined, but seem to let her interface with technology remotely in some way. So even isolated and living comfortably, Jack could be using her abilities to his advantage without putting her in the jar. In fact, we know he did just that.

By the events of BL2, the idea of putting Angel in a jar and pumping her full of so much eridium that she would die without it probably didn't seem too crazy to Jack. He had always kept her safe while exploiting her abilities. Judging by what happened with Lillith, Angel would have survived the process, and she didn't seem especially uncomfortable until you start breaking the injectors. Re-Watching that fight, Angel seems to be helping you more due to outrage over Jack's actions than because she feels that Jack has been mistreating her.



Err... I'm pretty sure she would have been stuck in that rig for the rest of her life, since she'd developed a dependancy at that point (Maybe she could have been weened off if the Raiders could take control over the entire facility, but that'd require more resources than they had, especially given her eridum consumption). And Lillith's strained echo communication makes it clear what was going on wasn't pleasant. But I don't think it started out that way- I think we would have seen some sabotage during the first game if Angel was being treated poorly. Also, eridium only became available after the pre-sequel, so we have no reason to assume pre-breakdown Jack would have pumped her full of eridium.

Uh, given that the previous game is over a year old, do you think we could ditch the spoilers if we're mostly talking about Jack and Angel or things that mostly deal with BL2?

[Alex Knight]

The ECHO recording has child Angel asking "where's Mommy" and Jack *forcing* her "into the chair"

[Squark]

The ECHO recording has child Angel asking "where's Mommy" and Jack *forcing* her "into the chair"

Out of context, not very meaningful. If Angel accidentally killed her mother due to lack of control, she might not understand it, and putting her into a power inhibitor, while distasteful, might have been the lesser of two evils.

[Alex Knight]

Out of context, not very meaningful. If Angel accidentally killed her mother due to lack of control, she might not understand it, and putting her into a power inhibitor, while distasteful, might have been the lesser of two evils.

Sure, but the guy *claiming* she did something to her mother is the exact same guy who had the Hyperion Grinder Lottery set up. Have you listened to those radio messages? One of them congratulates a new mother on the birth of twins and wishes her luck in deciding which one to keep.

[Squark]

Sure. Nobody is disputing BL2 Jack is a monster. I don't think anyone is disputing that he's become one at the end of the pre-sequel. I'm just pointing out we have no reason to assume he was always one.

[Socratov]

So in terms of builds, I'm at a loss for Nisha. I currently focus (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000505111000000000000000) on the fanning the hammer tree, with a point in order (a pittance of self healing for solo play), but I'm not really sure what's a good idea to continue. I know I want the dual wield skill (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000505141005100000000000) (because awesome). But then I'm confused wether to take more damage, or more sustain...

[darksolitaire]

So, Undeadlift can drop Jack-O-Cannon, unique Torgue shotgun that fires explosive Pumpkins. So just, you know, head-up, since it's only for a few days.

[Geno9999]

So in terms of builds, I'm at a loss for Nisha. I currently focus (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000505111000000000000000) on the fanning the hammer tree, with a point in order (a pittance of self healing for solo play), but I'm not really sure what's a good idea to continue. I know I want the dual wield skill (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000505141005100000000000) (because awesome). But then I'm confused wether to take more damage, or more sustain...

Short Fused, unless you're playing with shotguns (and even then it's a bit iffy), is not a really good skill since it drops off very quickly with distance, so I would toss that point onto Saddle Up. Otherwise, I haven't played too much with the Fan the Hammer tree, but I've found this fantastic Riflewoman/Law and Order build (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/4101410100005050000000005501510341) that focuses on Jakobs shotguns. Law and Order tree is surprisingly really good since you still gain stacks from damage to your shields. Put on a good Turtle shield and the only thing you really have to worry about is DoTs and/or anybody carrying a shock weapon.

[NEO|Phyte]

So we knew he was coming, but Jack Doppelganger DLC character is officially announced, releasing on the 11th (http://borderlandsthegame.com/index.php/news/handsome-jack-is-coming-to-borderlands-the-pre-sequel-as-a-downloadable-add).

[Socratov]

Short Fused, unless you're playing with shotguns (and even then it's a bit iffy), is not a really good skill since it drops off very quickly with distance, so I would toss that point onto Saddle Up. Otherwise, I haven't played too much with the Fan the Hammer tree, but I've found this fantastic Riflewoman/Law and Order build (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/4101410100005050000000005501510341) that focuses on Jakobs shotguns. Law and Order tree is surprisingly really good since you still gain stacks from damage to your shields. Put on a good Turtle shield and the only thing you really have to worry about is DoTs and/or anybody carrying a shock weapon.
well, that's why I use the point of order. And it works quite well. I could try to retool to the point of order and the riflewoan tree. But I'd take a different approach. (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000000000000055031010000) (that is for my current level).

So we knew he was coming, but Jack Doppelganger DLC character is officially announced, releasing on the 11th (http://borderlandsthegame.com/index.php/news/handsome-jack-is-coming-to-borderlands-the-pre-sequel-as-a-downloadable-add).

I want this.

[darksolitaire]

For those who already picked up the Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Season Pass, the Handsome Jack Doppelganger Pack is included, but for players that haven’t, it will also be sold individually for $9.99. The Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Season Pass is available for $29.99 and grants access to all four of the upcoming add-on content packs as they become commercially available on the PSN, Xbox Live, Windows PC, Mac and Linux – a $39.96 value! – so, you’re getting four packs for just about the price of three.

This seems to imply that new characters are one fourth of the season pass. And we're also supposed to have Baroness character coming. Time will tell.

[Socratov]

So... I've switched to 1 point in order and the rest in the riflewoman tree. And I must say I feel the difference. Not only do I have that little bit more sustain to make things easier, the tree gives loads of damage. I rarely scope anyways, so... This is actually working.

Build (http://thepresequel.com/Nisha/0100000000000000000000055041010020)

Now looking for a nice Jakobs revolver to go nuts with showdown, but I did find that I frequently use others as well (gotta find Zarpedon's gun again in the second playthrough). currently using a lot of boganella for up-in-your-face-fire-and-lots-of-swearing, and a corrosive Mining Laser. Between the two of them everything just dies, especially in showdown mode.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I have been playing the heck out of this game, even if I just got an XBone earlier this week and enjoying every minute of it! there's a lot of call-forwards, the character classes seem like a lot of fun (Only gotten past level 30 with Athena so far) especially the Doppelganger who perhaps wins the title of the wussiest Vault Hunter ever, remarkable since he's in a game with CLAPTRAP, and has a skill that does nothing but make him/Real-Jack monologue about various things (no bonuses or effect whatsoever).

I do think that Jack putting Angel in the chair was, at this point, still just a matter of necessity to him and not something that he was doing as a punishment or for profit. Sure he tries to hide the fact that Angel exists from others, but this is a man who keeps a picture of his smiling daughter on his desk and seems more akin to the Sociopath Heroes that we know and love from the Borderlands series. His definition of bandits is pretty much actual bandits, he had never used his Space Laser of Death (despite how awesome it would be, which is important to note), and his conversations with Angel during the sidequest to collect the ECHOes of the VHs are...well..close. They don't sound like enemies or adverse to one another, but this could just be because Angel likely hasn't had too much contact with anyone else. Fact is though, until Eridium becomes a thing, Angel is likely just in some sort of power-inhibitor or device that funnels her Phase Shift ability and likely very comfortable.

It isn't until everyone seems to start betraying Jack that he loses it. First the Meriff (who coupled betrayal with an assassination attempt), then the scientists (not ALL of them, but there are hints that one of the scientists actually is a traitor), and then Mox and the former Vault Hunters (again, coupled with an attempt to murder Jack). Keep in mind that, at that point, Lilith and Roland are bonafide heroes to Jack just like he is (in his mind) but, unlike him, they turn against the 'hero'. Maybe getting Vault-punched messed up his mind (it very likely did in fact) but Jack had already begun to slide down that slope to Handsome Jack and, if Moxxi is right, that kind of sociopathy was always lurking beneath the surface and nobody (including Jack) realized it. Hell, you can see the point when he puts his revenge and goals about being the hero, right after the Eye to Eye storyline mission you can go to Jack's office and he's put Angel's picture face down on his desk. Sure it's not the same sort of love that normal people show, but Jack does love his daughter in his own twisted way and at that point he either can't stand to look at her or have her watching what he does anymore.

I can say, in my opinion, that it isn't until that betrayal that Angel was probably actually mistreated in anyway because...well...A) Angel is Jack's most valuable ally and was sentient and could turn against him. B) He lacked a means or motive with which to actually do anything terrible to her (assuming making her into the 'AI' didn't involve anything like that of course) and C) She doesn't turn on him in part I. That's a big one, she has many, many chances to turn on Jack in part 1 but never does because...well...that's the real question, isn't it? If Angel doubted Jack, his motives, or his goals she was very capable of making sure they never got off the ground in the first place but she didn't and its not until the end of the Presequel/start of Borderlands 2 that she starts working against Jack.

Also, can't wait to see Hammerlock's sister!

[darksolitaire]

We still doing spoilers?

Burch was talking in a Doppelganger release stream. He referred to Moxxi's and Lilith's attempts to kill Jack as trying to kill Hitler, and that you shouldn't be mad at them. After having played to game trough, I get the feeling that Moxxi and Lilith are like those DMPC's that are super awesome to those who make them and can come across very differently to everyone else. Well, at least they did to me. Lilith herself seems particularly bad since she decided to kill Athena despite the former being no threat.

[Squark]

We still doing spoilers?

Burch was talking in a Doppelganger release stream. He referred to Moxxi's and Lilith's attempts to kill Jack as trying to kill Hitler, and that you shouldn't be mad at them. After having played to game trough, I get the feeling that Moxxi and Lilith are like those DMPC's that are super awesome to those who make them and can come across very differently to everyone else. Well, at least they did to me. Lilith herself seems particularly bad since she decided to kill Athena despite the former being no threat.

I don't particularly agree with Moxxi and Lilith's actions and wouldn't call it trying to kill Hitler, but I understand what they were doing. Moxxi saw that Jack's latent cruelty was starting to surface, and, well, even if he ain't firing it, I'd be the first in line to argue for dismantling the Eye of Helios (Well, I'd be near the back, actually, to be honest. Too shy, and probably not brave enough). The problem is that they a) Didn't plan for failure (Since they should have realized that if the plan failed, Jack was going to go off the deep end), and b) Didn't try other options to restrain Jack's darker side.

Lilith's decision to kill Athena is obviously the wrong one, but it's understandable- She's still in mourning after Roland's death, probably still dealing with her torture while she was charging the key, might be going through Eridium withdrawal, and she's now stuck as the de facto leader of Sanctuary. Killing Athena isn't the right choice, but it's quite understandable to crack under all that stress and to lash out at someone who helped one of the most evil men in Pandoran History come to power, especially if you once trusted that person.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Trying hard to ignore spoilers; haven't finished the game yet (Advanced Warfare with little brother and AC: Rogue taking up my gaming time).


So, the Jack's Doppleganger DLC; has anyone tried it yet? I have it from having the season's pass, but it wasn't listed in the "select a character" screen.

[Cespenar]

By the way, probably a very basic interaction, but did anyone happen to use a Ceraunic Storm Athena with that chain-ing shock laser that Moxxi gives you? It basically kills everyone all of the time.

[NEO|Phyte]

So, the Jack's Doppleganger DLC; has anyone tried it yet? I have it from having the season's pass, but it wasn't listed in the "select a character" screen.

I've got a doppeljack started, haven't gotten all that far yet. Jack's dialogue with his body double is wonderful.

[Callos_DeTerran]

We still doing spoilers?

Burch was talking in a Doppelganger release stream. He referred to Moxxi's and Lilith's attempts to kill Jack as trying to kill Hitler, and that you shouldn't be mad at them. After having played to game trough, I get the feeling that Moxxi and Lilith are like those DMPC's that are super awesome to those who make them and can come across very differently to everyone else. Well, at least they did to me. Lilith herself seems particularly bad since she decided to kill Athena despite the former being no threat.

Well it made sense not to spoil stuff from Borderlands 2, I didn't know about the Pre-Sequel so I erred on the side of caution.

Considering what he does you can't be mad at Jack, but considering what you know at the time? Well...I'm not mad at Moxxi, but I'm confused about what on earth Lilith say that warranted said murder attempt that would have killed everyone onboard the Helios station to kill one, at the moment, low-level Hyperion programmer who's biggest act of evil (that Lilith is around for mind) is...spacing four scientists because one of them is very likely a traitor and they're trying to save the world. Harsh, but not exactly the most unreasonable of stances to take all things considered. Lilith basically jumped the gun with one helluva knee-jerk reaction, Moxxi had actual motive and, to be honest, a far better plan to kill Jack.

But yeah, Lilith had no reason to kills Athena unless you count 'leaving Elpis/Pandora when she had the chance instead of staying to fight Jack' a crime and if it is...well damn does Lilith need to get busy exterminating the rest of those 'bandits' out there. :smalltongue:

[BRC]

Well it made sense not to spoil stuff from Borderlands 2, I didn't know about the Pre-Sequel so I erred on the side of caution.

Considering what he does you can't be mad at Jack, but considering what you know at the time? Well...I'm not mad at Moxxi, but I'm confused about what on earth Lilith say that warranted said murder attempt that would have killed everyone onboard the Helios station to kill one, at the moment, low-level Hyperion programmer who's biggest act of evil (that Lilith is around for mind) is...spacing four scientists because one of them is very likely a traitor and they're trying to save the world. Harsh, but not exactly the most unreasonable of stances to take all things considered. Lilith basically jumped the gun with one helluva knee-jerk reaction, Moxxi had actual motive and, to be honest, a far better plan to kill Jack.

But yeah, Lilith had no reason to kills Athena unless you count 'leaving Elpis/Pandora when she had the chance instead of staying to fight Jack' a crime and if it is...well damn does Lilith need to get busy exterminating the rest of those 'bandits' out there. :smalltongue:


Well, first of all, Jack built the Eye of Helios. She may be of the opinion that anybody willing to build an orbital death laser powerful enough to crack open the moon probably shouldn't be trusted with it.

Secondly, Moxxi's word that Jack+Power=Bad News might have been enough for her. Lillith IS a Vault Hunter. Solving problems with violence is kind of their thing.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well, first of all, Jack built the Eye of Helios. She may be of the opinion that anybody willing to build an orbital death laser powerful enough to crack open the moon probably shouldn't be trusted with it.

Secondly, Moxxi's word that Jack+Power=Bad News might have been enough for her. Lillith IS a Vault Hunter. Solving problems with violence is kind of their thing.


Maybe it was powerful enough to crack open the moon but that definitely didn't seem to be the intent behind why Jack built it. More importantly, there had to have been better ways to destroy the Eye of Helios then destroying Helios and everyone else on board who just happened to be on board at the time. Especially considering that at that point in time there was no longer a real time limit on when it had to be done. Ways that wouldn't have involved mass murder like...dealing with Jack personally! Which Lilith tried to do later on.

That's pretty much where my disconnect is, I don't really see Lilith and Roland's motivation behind turning on Jack unless they had a lot of in-depth conversations with Moxxi that are never even referenced to. Moxxi? Totes get why she did it even if she used hilariously excessive means to both destroy the Eye and kill Jack (but that's fine, she also had a murder-dome built to find husbands, not exactly a hero) but Lilith and Roland are nominally the big heroes of the story and they decide to murder a guy off of very little reasoning but also everyone else around him.

[Squark]

Well it made sense not to spoil stuff from Borderlands 2, I didn't know about the Pre-Sequel so I erred on the side of caution.

Considering what he does you can't be mad at Jack, but considering what you know at the time? Well...I'm not mad at Moxxi, but I'm confused about what on earth Lilith say that warranted said murder attempt that would have killed everyone onboard the Helios station to kill one, at the moment, low-level Hyperion programmer who's biggest act of evil (that Lilith is around for mind) is...spacing four scientists because one of them is very likely a traitor and they're trying to save the world. Harsh, but not exactly the most unreasonable of stances to take all things considered. Lilith basically jumped the gun with one helluva knee-jerk reaction, Moxxi had actual motive and, to be honest, a far better plan to kill Jack.

But yeah, Lilith had no reason to kills Athena unless you count 'leaving Elpis/Pandora when she had the chance instead of staying to fight Jack' a crime and if it is...well damn does Lilith need to get busy exterminating the rest of those 'bandits' out there. :smalltongue:

Nitpick: Jack isn't some low-level programmer. That's just Tassiter talking down to him. He's the (rather eccentric) head of R&D at an expensive new facility he himself proposed.

[BRC]

Maybe it was powerful enough to crack open the moon but that definitely didn't seem to be the intent behind why Jack built it. More importantly, there had to have been better ways to destroy the Eye of Helios then destroying Helios and everyone else on board who just happened to be on board at the time. Especially considering that at that point in time there was no longer a real time limit on when it had to be done. Ways that wouldn't have involved mass murder like...dealing with Jack personally! Which Lilith tried to do later on.

That's pretty much where my disconnect is, I don't really see Lilith and Roland's motivation behind turning on Jack unless they had a lot of in-depth conversations with Moxxi that are never even referenced to. Moxxi? Totes get why she did it even if she used hilariously excessive means to both destroy the Eye and kill Jack (but that's fine, she also had a murder-dome built to find husbands, not exactly a hero) but Lilith and Roland are nominally the big heroes of the story and they decide to murder a guy off of very little reasoning but also everyone else around him.

When did Lillith and Moxxi try to blow up Helios?

They blew up the Eye of Helios, which would have killed Jack if he'd stuck around at the Eye instead of retreating to a safe distance.

Had Jack not gone back to the Control Room, it would have killed Jack, the Pre-Sequel Vault Hunters, and some leftover Dahl soldiers. Helios itself didn't seem to be threatened at all.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Nitpick: Jack isn't some low-level programmer. That's just Tassiter talking down to him. He's the (rather eccentric) head of R&D at an expensive new facility he himself proposed.

It's not just Tassiter talking down to him though, everyone calls Jack a low-level Hyperion programmer. Low level might be on a scale that we're not used to (it being the Borderlands series) but at the very least it isn't just Tassiter saying Jack is a low-level programmer and I never got the impression that he was the head of R&D, even if he did propose the facility. Heck, Tassiter himself says that Jack is just there to observe Pandora, not really do anything else.

[QUOTE=BRC;18417545]
When did Lillith and Moxxi try to blow up Helios?

They blew up the Eye of Helios, which would have killed Jack if he'd stuck around at the Eye instead of retreating to a safe distance.

Had Jack not gone back to the Control Room, it would have killed Jack, the Pre-Sequel Vault Hunters, and some leftover Dahl soldiers. Helios itself didn't seem to be threatened at all.
[/QUO

Might just be a different impression that I got from what happened, but it definitely looked as if it could have easily blow up all of Helios if it had gotten out of hand.

[BRC]

Jack seems to be in charge of Helios station.

Which, considering that Hyperion is less of a Corporation, and more of an interstellar space empire, puts him pretty low on the heirarchy.
On the other hand, he's high up enough that Tassiter is talking to him directly, and the Board is ruling on whether or not to fire him. My guess is that Jack is just high enough in Hyperion to be Tassiter's problem, hence "Low-Level Programmer".


Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't remember Jack doing anything to mitigate the explosion. I think the explosion was exactly as big as Moxxi wanted/planned it to be. I read it as less a plan to assassinate Jack, and more about destroying the Eye. They could never get Jack to willingly destroy it, so they tricked him into doing it. Had he stayed down at the Eye itself, he would have died, and Moxxi wouldn't exactly have mourned, but I didn't see anything to indicate that the plan was to blow up the whole station.


Edit

Re-Watching the scene on Youtube. Moxxi tries to trick Jack into staying at the Eye itself, but Jack decides to head back to the command center.

The Singularity starts, the Eye is destroyed, as are the Lost Legion ships.A bunch of shrapnel flies everywhere and hits stuff, but Helios itself is largely intact.
Moxxi says she's trying to kill Jack. But once the Singularity starts up Jack does not do anything to stop it, and Moxxi does not act like anything is going wrong. So, we can assume that there was roughly as much damage as Moxxi expected.
Jack says "You've killed us all!", and I guess it's possible that some people died when the shrapnel hit Helios, but there's no indication that Moxxi's plan was supposed to destroy Helios itself. Had Jack stayed down at the Eye, he would have died for sure. As it was, he could have died from the Shrapnel, but unless Moxxi severely underestimated the size of the explosion, Helios would have survived.

Jack's "You've Killed us all!" line is the only indication that Helios should have been destroyed, but since nothing happens between that line and the explosion, I'm going to read that more as panic on Jack's part than a rational conclusion based on a full understanding of everything going on.

That said, Moxxi does say she was trying to kill Jack, and she did try to get him to stay down at the Eye itself. So yeah, it was definitely an assassination attempt,

[NeoVid]

Remember, Zarpedon's logs call Jack Hyperion's chief engineer.