toxic player problems

[Thevoidlingcat]

Greetings forum, today I come to you with a major problem.

A warlock in my group is becoming toxic latley and the dm is endorsing it to a point.

They are taking magic that allows them to control things. Recently they have been attempting to control the pc's. I need to know if there is any way to deny them of this ability, the dm refuses to act.

[Cybren]

"Sorry guys I'm just not really into this campaign"

[SaintRidley]

"Trying to control the other PCs is being a Richard. If you're going to be a Richard, I'm going to leave the game. But not before I kill your character."

[WickerNipple]

They are taking magic that allows them to control things. Recently they have been attempting to control the pc's. I need to know if there is any way to deny them of this ability, the dm refuses to act.

What spells are they using? The low level stuff (Friends, Charm) is pretty harmless in the long run since you know what they've done to you.

If some spawn of satan cast Charm on me I'd make sure to chop em up into tiny little pieces before they got their hands on Dominate+. That's just a wise survival strategy.

[Rezby]

Talk to the problematic player, and tell them your problems. Its no fun if YOUR player character is taking MY player character away from me. Convince them to drop the bull****.

RAW, though, its certainly legal. One thing to do is to shore up your own character's mental defenses. Take a multiclass in a class that grants you proficiency in wisdom saving throws (cleric, druid, paladin, warlock, and wizard) and boost your wisdom stat. Or take 7 levels in Oath of Devotion Paladin grants you the Aura of Devotion, which says you and friendly creatures within 10 ft can't be charmed while you're conscious, and the dominate, and charm person spells don't function if the target is immune to being charmed.

[Finieous]

Your character should respond appropriately to having his mind and will violated. The warlock has to sleep sometime.

[BRKNdevil]

Talk to the problematic player, and tell them your problems. Its no fun if YOUR player character is taking MY player character away from me. Convince them to drop the bull****.

RAW, though, its certainly legal. One thing to do is to shore up your own character's mental defenses. Take a multiclass in a class that grants you proficiency in wisdom saving throws (cleric, druid, paladin, warlock, and wizard) and boost your wisdom stat. Or take 7 levels in Oath of Devotion Paladin grants you the Aura of Devotion, which says you and friendly creatures within 10 ft can't be charmed while you're conscious, and the dominate, and charm person spells don't function if the target is immune to being charmed.

You can't multiclass to gain a Prof. In a Saving Throw. Though a Paladin's Aura would grant you a boost to it. I think the only thing you can do to gain a prof in a saving throw without going really really high levels in another class is to take the Resilient Feat

[MaxWilson]

Protection From Evil[1] doesn't prevent Charm at all in 5E, it just gives you advantage on Charm saves from fey/fiends/celestials/etc.

[1] Yes, I said "Evil", not "Good." Protection From Good is a stupid thing to call a spell, because from the perspective of whoever is doing the casting, anyone who tries to charm you displays evil intent toward you, no matter what the alignment system says.

[BRKNdevil]

Protection From Evil[1] doesn't prevent Charm at all in 5E, it just gives you advantage on Charm saves from fey/fiends/celestials/etc.

[1] Yes, I said "Evil", not "Good." Protection From Good is a stupid thing to call a spell, because from the perspective of whoever is doing the casting, anyone who tries to charm you displays evil intent toward you, no matter what the alignment system says.

What if they are Charming you not to jump off a roof?

[cobaltstarfire]

Tell the GM and the offending player that you are not cool with having your pc controlled by another pc.

Then if they do it anyway you can either, a. refuse to acknowledge it, or b. remind the other player that there will probably be IC consequences for what their character is doing to yours.

I guess it really depends on your table, but if they can mess with you, than you can certainly find your own way to mess with them in response.

[Oscredwin]

You can't multiclass to gain a Prof. In a Saving Throw. Though a Paladin's Aura would grant you a boost to it. I think the only thing you can do to gain a prof in a saving throw without going really really high levels in another class is to take the Resilient Feat

I mean you can take a 14 level dip in Monk.

[Gurka]

If you don't mind my asking, what race/class are you playing in the game? Maybe we can get some brainstorming going for appropriate in-game responses your character can make with reasonable chance for success.

It may not be your style (often isn't in D&D games), but some of my favorite campaigns have involved the characters at each other's throats.

[Sartharina]

Eh... charm is pretty harmless, if I remember correctly. "Oh, hey! This new guy I just met's actually kinda cool. Say hi to my new friend, everyone!" I think a lot of people think being charmed is a lot worse than it really is, because they haven't been under a similar effect IRL. But again - charming doesn't grant any control over the charmed person, aside from stopping them from stabbing you in the face.

I guess it's all along an continuum, though, ranging from the effect being "Give the charmer everything you own up to and including the clothes off your back" to merely "Oh hey, I'm being talked to by a really hot guy/girl."

[rollingForInit]

Eh... charm is pretty harmless, if I remember correctly. "Oh, hey! This new guy I just met's actually kinda cool. Say hi to my new friend, everyone!" I think a lot of people think being charmed is a lot worse than it really is, because they haven't been under a similar effect IRL. But again - charming doesn't grant any control over the charmed person, aside from stopping them from stabbing you in the face.

I guess it's all along an continuum, though, ranging from the effect being "Give the charmer everything you own up to and including the clothes off your back" to merely "Oh hey, I'm being talked to by a really hot guy/girl."

I think that'd be fine once every now or then, for something harmless. But if the character is doing it all the time, and convincing the PC of doing things that maybe he really wouldn't want to (but that isn't a violation of his nature), I can see how it'd get annoying. Especially in the lights of what'll happen when Dominate Person becomes available.

Personally, I'd tell the DM and the player. If they don't stop, I'd have my character react in-game. Say that I'm playing a fighter. The fighter gets pissed off at having his mind violated time and again, so he simply chops the Wizard's head off. I mean, using mind-controll spells on someone without their consent could be a form of mental rape. Anything goes, as a defence.

Another option is to say that your character dislikes the other PC that any charisma roll he has to make is against a DC of 30 or 40 or something. Your character is aware of the magic, obviously, so he does his best to never listen. After all, you're the one who sets the DC for being persuaded. If it's Charm Person or Friends that we're talking about.

Either way, getting extremely upset in game is more than fine. Sure, Charm Person is pretty much like being charmed IRL, but you can get extremely upset about that as well. And there are various ways of getting "charmed". Some are benign, like talking to a friendly person. Others are not. Imagine if a coworker uses master manipulation techniques on you to render anything you say meaningless, or pushes your emotional buttons like a remote, bringing up subjects that you don't really want to talk about, just to get under your skin. A person who manipulates you into doing something you otherwise wouldn't. You might end up agreeing with them then and there, but that doesn't mean that you aren't upset about getting manipulated.

[Eslin]

Eh... charm is pretty harmless, if I remember correctly. "Oh, hey! This new guy I just met's actually kinda cool. Say hi to my new friend, everyone!" I think a lot of people think being charmed is a lot worse than it really is, because they haven't been under a similar effect IRL. But again - charming doesn't grant any control over the charmed person, aside from stopping them from stabbing you in the face.

I guess it's all along an continuum, though, ranging from the effect being "Give the charmer everything you own up to and including the clothes off your back" to merely "Oh hey, I'm being talked to by a really hot guy/girl."

I think it's a holdover in 3.5. Back then it was 'trusted friend and ally', nowadays it's just advantage on charisma checks.

[Thevoidlingcat]

I am a life domain cleric, the warlock is taking spells like mass sugest,something similar to charm person, and dimensional door (announced plans to throw pc's/npc's alike into if they either don't cooperate or bow to the wim of the warlock).

[BRKNdevil]

1 Denote him as Evil
2 You do not help Evil
3 Be like batman in batman begins and figure, you don't need to save him either
4 Next big battle, "He did it!" pointing at the warlock.
Because the team needs a cleric a lot more then they need a warlock

[Easy_Lee]

I am a life domain cleric, the warlock is taking spells like mass sugest,something similar to charm person, and dimensional door (announced plans to throw pc's/npc's alike into if they either don't cooperate or bow to the wim of the warlock).

Wait until he falls asleep and garrote him. No more verbal spells. Have your friend called shot his arm at the same time. No more somatic spells either. Should be easy to kill the warlock at that point and force him to roll a new character. Make it very clear that your character no longer trusts warlocks and plans to do the same to any they meet.

[Thevoidlingcat]

Wait until he falls asleep and garrote him. No more verbal spells. Have your friend called shot his arm at the same time. No more somatic spells either. Should be easy to kill the warlock at that point and force him to roll a new character. Make it very clear that your character no longer trusts warlocks and plans to do the same to any they meet.

Can't do that, we have another warlock I actually like on our team. Plus Im lawful neutral.

[Sartharina]

Can't do that, we have another warlock I actually like on our team. Plus Im lawful neutral.

So you can do everything sans hating all warlocks forever.

[Thevoidlingcat]

So you can do everything sans hating all warlocks forever.

I dont like one specific character, this is not about all warlocks.

[Sartharina]

I dont like one specific character, this is not about all warlocks.

Hence the 'sans' in there. You can still butcher the guy for being not only an ass, but also severe threat to the stability of society.

[Sidmen]

I dont like one specific character, this is not about all warlocks.

sans means except

"So you can do everything except hating all warlocks forever."

[Durazno]

EDIT: Double-ninja'd.

Though I can see why you'd balk at that plan as a lawful neutral character and as a player.

If you don't want to do that, warning the warlock that something like that could happen to him if he's not more respectful might still be effective.

[hymer]

EDIT: Double-ninja'd.

Though I can see why you'd balk at that plan as a lawful neutral character and as a player.

If you don't want to do that, warning the warlock that something like that could happen to him if he's not more respectful might still be effective.

I can see how a LN character could announce that he considers that casting antagonistic spells at him constitutes an attack, and any such attack will be met with his full capacity for self defence, which is entirely legal. You don't even have to announce it before you splatter the sleeping warlock's brains in, but you may want to anyway.
That said, I'm with the "Talk to them, and if they won't listen, walk." crowd. Don't threaten to walk (don't threaten anything), btw. Just do it if you must.

[Gurka]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, dimension door may only teleport the caster and one WILLING creature. That means he can't "throw the party in". He can't even use mass suggestion to willingly let him teleport you, since he's already threatened you with it, and mass suggestion and other charm spells fail (or end) if the charmed creature is commanded to take action that is directly harmful to itself. It also allows a save.

Besides, it can only teleport you up to 500 ft. Unless he does so directly up in the air, it's not really gonna do much harm.

What classes and alignments are the other members of the party? That has a lot to do with potential reactions to his behavior.

Honestly, I'd get with the rest of the party and call his bluff. Then, if he tries to force the issue, point out that the abilities you listed above are very limited, and you and the others throw him a beating. After his attitude adjustment is complete, hopefully you won't have any more problems.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Say "no means no".

If the player can't conceive of that message (and this seems to be very much about the player, since they're discussing things they intend to take at future levels), they're probably not someone you want to share municipalities with, let alone a roleplaying table.

If the character can't conceive of that message, they're more a threat (to yourself and everyone your group comes into contact with) than an asset. If you can't get the group to agree with you on this, slit the warlock's throat and disappear into the night.

Either way, you can decide from there if you want to spend another evening with this group. My answer would probably be "no". I've put up with much worse in my time (more in quantity than in scope), but I've also learned that I don't have to--and neither should you.

[WickerNipple]

Plus Im lawful neutral.

I don't see any reason a LN can't remove threats to his person/society. You're talking about a proto-slaver here. Getting rid of them before they get Dominate is completely best for a lawful society.

If killing's too harsh for you just cut his tongue out. Problem mostly solved.

[Finieous]

Plus Im lawful neutral.

So give him a proper hearing before you execute him.

[obryn]

This is a player problem. Handle it out of game.

[Balyano]

Have all the characters sit in a circle have a meeting to discuss the use of charm spells against party members. Suggest that anyone that does so will be fined by the party. He will vote nay, everybody else votes yay, he is out voted, democracy triumphs. After he uses a charm spell on a party member have the entire party take his belongings away from him, by force if necessary, subtract the fine from his belongings, starting with gold and working toward gear. Then return what remains to him. Of course he is now on parole, so the party has to keep continuous inventory of his possessions, lest he try to hide something. If he does it again hit him with another fine. No DM intervention needed, of course the other party members have to agree to it.

[Chen]

This is a player problem. Handle it out of game.

A million times yes. Don't deal with out of game issues with in game reactions. This is the player being toxic. Talk to them out of game. If everyone wants to play that type of game and you don't, leave.

[Sartharina]

A million times yes. Don't deal with out of game issues with in game reactions. This is the player being toxic. Talk to them out of game. If everyone wants to play that type of game and you don't, leave.

Except it's also an In-game issue. Out-of-game issues are like not buying pizza, or showing up late.

[Finieous]

Except it's also an In-game issue. Out-of-game issues are like not buying pizza, or showing up late.

I think there's room for compromise. Kill the warlock in his sleep, then sit in a circle and talk about it.

[Galen]

Charmed
•A charmed creature can’t attack the charmer or target
the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
•The charmer has advantage on any ability check to
interact socially with the creature.Between two PCs, Charm does absolutely nothing.
- Can't attack him? Well, you weren't going to attack him anyway.
- Advantage on ability check? Social skills are for NPCs, not PC-to-PC interactions.

Which brings me to the next point: Bullying is all about provoking reactions. The best way to deal with a bully is not to give them any. Your character is charmed by his character? Just ignore it. The rules are on your side.

[obryn]

Except it's also an In-game issue. Out-of-game issues are like not buying pizza, or showing up late.
No, when one player is directly making things less fun for another player, it isn't really an in-game problem.

[Occasional Sage]

The unspoken assumption is all games is that everybody is there to have fun. If one person's fun requires taking away the fun of other players, they should not be in the game. If they really, REALLY want to stay, they need to find a way to play nicely with others.

[Vizzerdrix]

This is a player problem. Handle it out of game.

" Hey. The next time you try to pull that stunt yer buying everyone Chinese. From the expensive place on the other side of town." :smallamused:

If that fails go to plan B (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSvkRmWizw0)

[hachface]

This thread is overflowing with bad advice.

Ignore anyone who suggests an in-character solution to this ("Wait until his character is asleep and them kill him!"). Instead you should talk to the player, outside the game, and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable. If he doesn't change his behavior then stop playing with him.

[Sartharina]

Meh. Metagame problems deserve metagame solutions.

If it's just one problem player, making his IC game as hellish as he's trying to make yours is fine. Then it's up to him to get the hint and leave.

[Finieous]

This thread is overflowing with bad advice.

Ignore anyone who suggests an in-character solution to this ("Wait until his character is asleep and them kill him!").

You're right -- the warlock deserves to die with his eyes open.

Seriously, though, whether any specific advice is good or bad will depend on the players. I've been playing for 35 years, and in my experience, handling in-game/in-character problems in-game and in-character works just fine. For that matter, I generally wouldn't handle out-of-game problems in-game ("No, I won't cure you because you forgot the chips!"). Again, in my experience, keeping it in-game prevents real-life escalation and drama I don't want, especially if the people I'm playing with are actually friends. When we play hoops, I'm not going to stop the game to have a discussion about hard fouls, either.

Sometimes it seems like a lot of games have become all about the player-player or player-DM drama. I really don't want to have a circle...talk...about how your warlock is hurting my feelings over a D&D game. Ugh.

[Ursus the Grim]

This thread is overflowing with bad advice.

Ignore anyone who suggests an in-character solution to this ("Wait until his character is asleep and them kill him!"). Instead you should talk to the player, outside the game, and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable. If he doesn't change his behavior then stop playing with him.

Yeah. This is a player problem, handle it OOC. Tell him "hey, I've been holding back because I don't want to be the one to cause player deaths, but I don't appreciate the loss of agency of my character. The next time you violate my character's mind, will, and agency, he will respond accordingly."

Make sure he understands that you aren't cool with it OOC before you take it IC.

As much as I'd hate to say it, I'd probably react as their GM is. The GM's job is to adjudicate things in-game, not play mediator between adults. The GM should be well aware of how these effects interact and what makes sense for a PC.

[Gurka]

This very kind of situation is why I always poll my players at the start of a campaign to set ground rules. If the consensus is for PvP interaction, then it's fair game, and if the consensus is for cooperation, then hostile player actions are simply disallowed.

While I agree that the simplest possible solution is to simply ask the other player to quit it, in my experience that may not yield the desired result. If it doesn't, then my personal thought is to leave the group, or dissuade him from continuing this behavior in-game.

[rlc]

This thread is overflowing with bad advice.

Ignore anyone who suggests an in-character solution to this ("Wait until his character is asleep and them kill him!"). Instead you should talk to the player, outside the game, and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable. If he doesn't change his behavior then stop playing with him.

can i just give one more piece of bad advice?



punch him in the mouth. the player, i mean. then maybe the character, too. or punch the character sheet, at least, even if it doesn't have a mouth because it's just a piece of paper.
no, wait, i've got it. take his character sheet and draw a big, toothy grin that covers up all of his writing, hold it up to his face and punch both the piece of paper and the player in the mouth at the same time.

[Easy_Lee]

can i just give one more piece of bad advice?



punch him in the mouth. the player, i mean. then maybe the character, too. or punch the character sheet, at least, even if it doesn't have a mouth because it's just a piece of paper.
no, wait, i've got it. take his character sheet and draw a big, toothy grin that covers up all of his writing, hold it up to his face and punch both the piece of paper and the player in the mouth at the same time.

I like this suggestion. Living out power fantasies by pushing other players around is pretty much the worst thing you can do in a tabletop game.

[Yagyujubei]

This thread is overflowing with bad advice.

Ignore anyone who suggests an in-character solution to this ("Wait until his character is asleep and them kill him!"). Instead you should talk to the player, outside the game, and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable. If he doesn't change his behavior then stop playing with him.

the only problem is that everyone knows that someone that is douchey enough to play like this; when confronted out of game, would simply say "But that's what my character would do huehuehueuhehu"

the only thing you can do is give him a "This is your last warning" out of game, and if he ever does it again kill him, and when he's rolling a new character make it clear that the final warning still stands, and that he will be executed any time he plays like a ****.

the problem with this, is that as soon as you give him the final warning he will take precautions to thwart his murder...but if he's pissing off the whole party that wont be an issue since noone can solo the rest of the party.

[Icewraith]

I like this suggestion. Living out power fantasies by pushing other players around is pretty much the worst thing you can do in a tabletop game.

No. There's nothing that "blah blah and also rape" can't make worse. If you're really looking to give the ultimate in terrible advice about tabletop gaming, there needs to be an awkwardly horrific sexual element. Once you go there, you've hit rock bottom in terms of advice.

It seems like something so bad nobody would actually involve it, but most of the really, REALLY bad toxic group stories (IDR if there was anything like that in SUE, but several other notable ones I remember) I've heard or seen end up with one PC raping something (usually another PC) and none of the rest of the group objecting, or not objecting when the incident occurred.

(If that actually happens, grab your stuff, get up from the table, and leave. And bleach your dice when you get home, just in case.)

[Yagyujubei]

No. There's nothing that "blah blah and also rape" can't make worse. If you're really looking to give the ultimate in terrible advice about tabletop gaming, there needs to be an awkwardly horrific sexual element. Once you go there, you've hit rock bottom in terms of advice.

It seems like something so bad nobody would actually involve it, but most of the really, REALLY bad toxic group stories (IDR if there was anything like that in SUE, but several other notable ones I remember) I've heard or seen end up with one PC raping something (usually another PC) and none of the rest of the group objecting, or not objecting when the incident occurred.

(If that actually happens, grab your stuff, get up from the table, and leave. And bleach your dice when you get home, just in case.)

dont forget to slash their tires before you go home. (<--Joke)

EDIT: no wait, muffler banana all the way (<--Joke)

[Gurka]

One question i have for the OP: you said that the DM was (to some degree) promoting this behavior from the warlock. I'm curious in what way(s) the DM is doing so, since the how and why are of paramount importance to whether or not the campaign is going to be full of more of the same or not, even after this conflict is resolved.

[WickerNipple]

I'm curious in what way(s) the DM is doing so

Watch it be the DM's SO or crush.

[Easy_Lee]

One question i have for the OP: you said that the DM was (to some degree) promoting this behavior from the warlock. I'm curious in what way(s) the DM is doing so, since the how and why are of paramount importance to whether or not the campaign is going to be full of more of the same or not, even after this conflict is resolved.

Agreed. If the DM is merely allowing the behavior, I'd take it as an invitation to do something in game about it (much like a no-rules PvP server in an online game). If the DM is actively rewarding him for being a jerk, might be time to find a new group.

[Thevoidlingcat]

I really just wanted to know like. . .ingame magic or items that would protect me or something. Im not going to kill the thing unless I have to.

[The Glyphstone]

I really just wanted to know like. . .ingame magic or items that would protect me or something. Im not going to kill the thing unless I have to.

That won't solve the problem, only delay it. We're offering lethal solutions because when this sort of thing happens, the sort of player who does this won't listen or back down against anything short of character death. And often not even then.

So yes, based on what you've told us, you will have to threaten death, and if they don't stop, go through with it. And make sure the rest of your party is on board when you do, to make it very clear to both the player and the DM that you are united in 'not putting up with this nonsense'.

[hachface]

I really just wanted to know like. . .ingame magic or items that would protect me or something. Im not going to kill the thing unless I have to.

This is not an in-character problem. This is a player problem. You will only solve it by acting like an adult (even if you are not one) and talking directly to the problem player about the issue.

Threatening his character's life is not the solution in any case.

[Thevoidlingcat]

One question i have for the OP: you said that the DM was (to some degree) promoting this behavior from the warlock. I'm curious in what way(s) the DM is doing so, since the how and why are of paramount importance to whether or not the campaign is going to be full of more of the same or not, even after this conflict is resolved.

The dm is choosing to not intervene giving me lines like "I'm not going to tell other players how to play the character" and "hes only joking" when ive seen his future spell list hes picked out.

He isnt endorsing it but he is activley choosing to do nothing about it. It could have been solved by simply saying that since you two are allies it doesnt affect, but no. He bans evil charachters and is allowing a super slaver sex master in his campain.

[hachface]

the only problem is that everyone knows that someone that is douchey enough to play like this; when confronted out of game, would simply say "But that's what my character would do huehuehueuhehu"

the only thing you can do is give him a "This is your last warning" out of game, and if he ever does it again kill him, and when he's rolling a new character make it clear that the final warning still stands, and that he will be executed any time he plays like a ****.

the problem with this, is that as soon as you give him the final warning he will take precautions to thwart his murder...but if he's pissing off the whole party that wont be an issue since noone can solo the rest of the party.

This is exactly what I mean by bad advice. The correct response to PVP is not more PVP. It is to disinvite the player from the game.

Edit: You should talk to your DM, too, since it sounds like he's not doing his part in curbing bad player behavior.

[Thevoidlingcat]

This is not an in-character problem. This is a player problem. You will only solve it by acting like an adult (even if you are not one) and talking directly to the problem player about the issue.

Threatening his character's life is not the solution in any case.

I didn't plan to, I wanted to know if ingame I could protect myself from this with like a special hemet enchant or something.

[hachface]

I didn't plan to, I wanted to know if ingame I could protect myself from this with like a special hemet enchant or something.

My point is that a **** player is going to be a **** player no matter what. If your character foils his character's mind control abilities or whatever else he's just going to find some other strategy to be disruptive unless you have a serious, grown-up conversation about how his behavior is making your experience less fun.

[Sartharina]

This is not an in-character problem. This is a player problem. You will only solve it by acting like an adult (even if you are not one) and talking directly to the problem player about the issue.

Threatening his character's life is not the solution in any case.It is a metagame problem at best. You're over- and mis-preaching the 'OOC problems need OOC solutions". This is not an Out of Game/Out of Character problem. It's a metagame and metacharacter problem. If one player tries making the game a problem for everyone else, it's perfectly fine to get the rest of the group to turn it around on him and beat him at his own game until he knocks it off.

You can tell him to knock it off. He probably won't listen. But after the warning - IC actions deserve IC responses. If he won't back down from playing his character like a jerk, give his character the jerk death it deserves.

And 'walking away' because of a single player that can be shut down by taking appropriate metagame/in-game action to counter inappropriate metagame/in-game behavior is reactionary and unnecessary.
My point is that a **** player is going to be a **** player no matter what. If your character foils his character's mind control abilities or whatever else he's just going to find some other strategy to be disruptive unless you have a serious, grown-up conversation about how his behavior is making your experience less fun.A serious, grown-up conversation is unlikely to work if there's an actual out-of-character problem, and it's better to have the rest of the group make his disruptive activity backfire than to walk away and give him more power over the group.
This is exactly what I mean by bad advice. The correct response to PVP is not more PVP. It is to disinvite the player from the game.Citation needed. More PVP to get someone to knock off disruptive activity works.

Edit: You should talk to your DM, too, since it sounds like he's not doing his part in curbing bad player behavior.The DM's made it clear that it's an issue for the players to sort out themselves. Making the game hell for the problem player is perfectly acceptable to that end.

[Thevoidlingcat]

It is a metagame problem at best. You're over- and mis-preaching the 'OOC problems need OOC solutions". This is not an Out of Game/Out of Character problem. It's a metagame and metacharacter problem. If one player tries making the game a problem for everyone else, it's perfectly fine to get the rest of the group to turn it around on him and beat him at his own game until he knocks it off.

You can tell him to knock it off. He probably won't listen. But after the warning - IC actions deserve IC responses. If he won't back down from playing his character like a jerk, give his character the jerk death it deserves.

And 'walking away' because of a single player that can be shut down by taking appropriate metagame/in-game action to counter inappropriate metagame/in-game behavior is reactionary and unnecessary.A serious, grown-up conversation is unlikely to work if there's an actual out-of-character problem, and it's better to have the rest of the group make his disruptive activity backfire than to walk away and give him more power over the group.Citation needed. More PVP to get someone to knock off disruptive activity works.
The DM's made it clear that it's an issue for the players to sort out themselves. Making the game hell for the problem player is perfectly acceptable to that end.


You really arent helping

[Yagyujubei]

You really arent helping

you're not willing to do what it takes to solve your problem. we've told you what you can do, first off there are no magical helmets or throat lozenges that will shield you from mental assault unless your DM makes one up. the DMG isnt even out yet so magical items are extremely limited. Secondly, thats a horrible solution, because whats to stop the guy from taking your helmet for himself or destroying it.

seriously you have three options.

1. talk to player and DM and get him to straighten up.

2. if out of character talk fails, take drastic action in game to assure his "character" will never think to mess with your group again

3. leave the group and look for a campaign elsewhere

It's really that simple, and no offense, but if you're gonna be this halfhearted about it then it really must not be bothering you that much.

[obryn]

You can tell him to knock it off. He probably won't listen. But after the warning - IC actions deserve IC responses. If he won't back down from playing his character like a jerk, give his character the jerk death it deserves.
That's a false dichotomy.

There's no IC action that's not also an OOC action. If Jeff's character, Venger, is being a ****, it's Jeff who's pulling the strings. Venger isn't a real person. He has no free will. He is an imaginary character that is only behaving like a **** because Jeff is playing him like a ****. Jeff has the ability to play Venger in less- or at least alternately-dickish ways, even if (especially if) part of the "Venger" character concept is "Venger is a huge a-hole." And if Jeff's character concept is so broken and awful that Venger can't even be that much of a team player, that's still Jeff's fault.

If Venger's dickishness is creating interesting conflicts that everyone's on board with, then that's awesome - Jeff's being an alright dude and everyone's happy. However, if it's not - as certainly seems to be the case here - then Jeff is not.

[Sidmen]

I didn't plan to, I wanted to know if ingame I could protect myself from this with like a special hemet enchant or something.

As of right now, there isn't a whole heck of a lot you can do. Get proficiency in Wisdom Saving Throws (there is a feat). Currently, no magic items will protect you, though you could certainly ask the DM to create one. You could also be either an Elf (advantage vs. charm effects) or a Gnome (Advantage against all mind-affecting magic - essentially).

That's about it as far as in-game options go. I, too, recommend just telling the guy that you really don't like PVP games, and that PVP includes forcing you to do something you don't want with in-game rules.

[Thevoidlingcat]

you're not willing to do what it takes to solve your problem. we've told you what you can do, first off there are no magical helmets or throat lozenges that will shield you from mental assault unless your DM makes one up. the DMG isnt even out yet so magical items are extremely limited. Secondly, thats a horrible solution, because whats to stop the guy from taking your helmet for himself or destroying it.

seriously you have three options.

1. talk to player and DM and get him to straighten up.

2. if out of character talk fails, take drastic action in game to assure his "character" will never think to mess with your group again

3. leave the group and look for a campaign elsewhere

It's really that simple, and no offense, but if you're gonna be this halfhearted about it then it really must not be bothering you that much.

Ive yet to even see them again, and ive gotten the advice I needed, repeating the same thing over again after someone else has said it several times over is not helpful. This discussion shouldn't have taken up three whole pages of people telling me to continually harm the pc and the charachter. I came for magical help and was informed.

[Sartharina]

Ive yet to even see them again, and ive gotten the advice I needed, repeating the same thing over again after someone else has said it several times over is not helpful.

Welcome to the internet. We like to argue in circles.

[rlc]

Just make sure that when you knock him out, you tea bag him and then say, "This is what MY character would do!"

[DontEatRawHagis]

Since it sounds like the OP is a Player in the game. Bring it up to the DM.

Using Mind Control to enthrall PCs is evil. No matter what. Not only is it taking away a player's character from their hands it is actively turning a PC into a slave.

I had to talk to a player about manipulating the other players to her side. This is almost the exact same situation except its crunchy.

[MustacheFart]

Just make sure that when you knock him out, you tea bag him and then say, "This is what MY character would do!"

I'm just curious to know if the problematic warlock is targeting other members of the party with his mind control or just you. If it is just you then I would say there is an issue there.


If he's doing things like Mass Suggestion then I would suggest a more creative solution. Perhaps in a town you are able to hire a squire or better yet an apprentice of more privileged birth. I doubt the warlock will be unable to resist hitting him with his mind control. However, because he's a good npc accompanying you the warlock will likely not kill him but just mind control him. Once that wears off you have an NPC who can report back to the local magistrate that there is a betrayer in your group.

Also, another reminder. Nothing says you have to let the warlock know when you resist his mind control. Perhaps the next time he attempts mind control on you and you succeed on your check, you simply "act" like you are under his control. Only you follow his orders in a manner that makes things MUCH MUCH worse. Ex. You're hired to rescue the King's son from a group of Orcs that captured him. The warlock orders you to charge in and attack the enemy. You charge in, attack the orcs but afterward you also attack the King's son. You state that you believed him to be conspiring with the Orcs thus making him an enemy. When that gets back to town all you need to explain is that you were under mind control and couldn't control yourself. See if the warlock can deny mind controlling you then.

The above is a pretty weak example but the point is, just attempting mind-control is establishing an rp-link between the controller and the controlled. That means said "rp-link" can be manipulated to benefit the "controlled" rather than the "controller".

Be creative, devious, and manipulative to punish him not for when he succeeds at mind controlling you but for when he FAILS at mind controlling you. Once you have established that the risk is too great for him, I bet he will stick to mind controlling NPCs.

---

I have had ONE player ever try to mind control me in many many years of play. We were in a small town dealing with some threat that my character, a barbarian, didn't feel compelled to deal with for good reason. Another party member tried to mind control me in order to get me to Rage and attack the enemy. Well, I luckily pegged my save but I kept that to myself. I simply obliged the player by Raging and killing every last person in that small town--The threats, the men, the women, and the children. EVERYONE! I slaughtered them all. That player never tried to control me again after we hightailed it out.

[Thevoidlingcat]

I'm just curious to know if the problematic warlock is targeting other members of the party with his mind control or just you. If it is just you then I would say there is an issue there.


If he's doing things like Mass Suggestion then I would suggest a more creative solution. Perhaps in a town you are able to hire a squire or better yet an apprentice of more privileged birth. I doubt the warlock will be unable to resist hitting him with his mind control. However, because he's a good npc accompanying you the warlock will likely not kill him but just mind control him. Once that wears off you have an NPC who can report back to the local magistrate that there is a betrayer in your group.

Also, another reminder. Nothing says you have to let the warlock know when you resist his mind control. Perhaps the next time he attempts mind control on you and you succeed on your check, you simply "act" like you are under his control. Only you follow his orders in a manner that makes things MUCH MUCH worse. Ex. You're hired to rescue the King's son from a group of Orcs that captured him. The warlock orders you to charge in and attack the enemy. You charge in, attack the orcs but afterward you also attack the King's son. You state that you believed him to be conspiring with the Orcs thus making him an enemy. When that gets back to town all you need to explain is that you were under mind control and couldn't control yourself. See if the warlock can deny mind controlling you then.

The above is a pretty weak example but the point is, just attempting mind-control is establishing an rp-link between the controller and the controlled. That means said "rp-link" can be manipulated to benefit the "controlled" rather than the "controller".

Be creative, devious, and manipulative to punish him not for when he succeeds at mind controlling you but for when he FAILS at mind controlling you. Once you have established that the risk is too great for him, I bet he will stick to mind controlling NPCs.

---

I have had ONE player ever try to mind control me in many many years of play. We were in a small town dealing with some threat that my character, a barbarian, didn't feel compelled to deal with for good reason. Another party member tried to mind control me in order to get me to Rage and attack the enemy. Well, I luckily pegged my save but I kept that to myself. I simply obliged the player by Raging and killing every last person in that small town--The threats, the men, the women, and the children. EVERYONE! I slaughtered them all. That player never tried to control me again after we hightailed it out.

This is a fun idea! Thank you!

[Composer99]

OP, your thread title is "toxic player problems", which suggests that the problem is more than a mild annoyance that a magic item or feat can fix, and thus the responses have recommended more drastic action (out-of-game discussion with the offender, killing the offending warlock, and such). Assuming the thread title is accurate, I concur with a decisive response.

So, I think there are a few questions you have to ask yourself before you do anything:

(1) How much is this behaviour bothering you? How much is it impinging on your ability to have fun each game session (or have fun thinking about the game in between sessions)?

(2) How much do you enjoy playing with the warlock's player, given the player's behaviour in this situation (through the warlock)? (A corollary to this is whether the warlock's player acts like this in other game situations to your knowledge.)

(3) Given the DM has washed hands of the situation, what are the views of the other players? Are they accepting this PvP action, or are they also annoyed/bothered/etc. by it?


Your answer to questions in category (1) will determine whether you will resolve to simply grin and bear it, or pick up a feat/dip/item to control the situation better, or consider something more significant.

Your answer to questions in categories (2) and (3) will determine whether you should simply walk away from this game or take control of the situation (whether the goal is simply to modify the offender's in-game behaviour or have them walk away).

[MustacheFart]

This is a fun idea! Thank you!

You're welcome.


You're also the party healer obviously so just stop healing the guy. He violated a cardinal rule. Just like you should never mess with the guy who handles your food, you should also never mess with the guy who handles your heals.

[Talakeal]

Here is the thing, offense is the best defense.

AFAIK you can't get complete immunity in 5E, and even the strongest defenses will have a good chance to fail due to bounded accuracy. If he keeps attacking you he will periodically succeed, and eventually he will really screw you over, possibly killing your character or worse.

The only way to be sure is to remove his ability or his motivation to attack you. Honestly it doesn't make sense why your character would continue to even travel with this guy even if you as a player don't want to resort to OOC talks or PVP.

It would be like if my neighbor insisted on using my house for target practice. I could invest in bullet proof vests for me and my family, but this is only delaying the inevitable. If I don't make him cut it out or move eventually someone is going to get killed. That is not a situation a sane person remains in.



BTW, if someone does figure out a way to make yourself virtually impervious to mind control I would love to hear it. The apparent inability to do so has been one of my biggest turnoffs to 5E so far.

[Yoroichi]

It also sounds to me that you can either handle the problem out or in character. How you choose to is your problem.

Regarding the ingame advice, don't clerics have that god thingie where they can wish for whatever they want each week and have 10% chance of getting it?


This happened in my group as well, when i was the DM. We were playing an open minded 3,5 campaign, but the open minds of all the players were not in accordance. One player wanted to play something like sims but the others wanted to play DND. This brought conflict in the group and although i was trying to negotiate the details with everyone,it only kept escalating as the players did not want to actually continue with each other.

All in all, you need to consider your options to make an informed decision. If it ultimately comes down to you or him on this DND party, who is everyone going to want to keep playing with?

Myself i am in favour of the ingame solution, because it is more fun and is a challenge you must overcome, you can even use it as character development.

You need to speak with your DM off game and see what he allows you to do ( unless he is really tight with the warlock guy and they playing you)

[Lokiare]

Between two PCs, Charm does absolutely nothing.
- Can't attack him? Well, you weren't going to attack him anyway.
- Advantage on ability check? Social skills are for NPCs, not PC-to-PC interactions.

Which brings me to the next point: Bullying is all about provoking reactions. The best way to deal with a bully is not to give them any. Your character is charmed by his character? Just ignore it. The rules are on your side.

The best way to deal with a bully is to get a couple of your friends and ambush the bully while they are alone. Proceed to beat them half to death, and promise repeats if they attempt to bully anyone else.
Strangely this also works to cure anarchists of their delusions but you gotta take their wallet and clothes.

It's either that or years of expensive therapy. I like the quick method better.

Just get with the other party members and do the above. That fails just don't help them in combat. No healing. No distracting the enemy let their character die and at that characters funeral explain teamwork.

[mister__joshua]

He bans evil characters and is allowing a super slaver sex master in his campaign.

I thought someone else would have picked up on this, but now I'm interested as to what he's making you do.

"We've had a good day adventuring and slain many Orcs. I suggest we wind down with an orgy."

To me, that just sounds like fun for all the party :smallbiggrin:

[Yagyujubei]

I thought someone else would have picked up on this, but now I'm interested as to what he's making you do.

"We've had a good day adventuring and slain many Orcs. I suggest we wind down with an orgy."

To me, that just sounds like fun for all the party :smallbiggrin:

yeah being forced to have same-sex intercourse against your will sounds like an awesome time....

even the fact that someone would want to make a character do this in a fantasy setting tells me there's something very wrong with them in real life, and I would probably try to avoid playing with or seeing them ever.

[Durazno]

Or intercourse of any kind, really. That's just all kinds of awful.

[MadGrady]

Or intercourse of any kind, really. That's just all kinds of awful.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa.......whoa.

Whoa

It's true lol

[Sartharina]

Or intercourse of any kind, really. That's just all kinds of awful.

But only when forced.

[obryn]

I thought someone else would have picked up on this, but now I'm interested as to what he's making you do.
My reaction:
http://sa.peteyproductions.net/savedimage/emoticons/mega-stare.gif
...Holy cow, I completely missed that.


The dm is choosing to not intervene giving me lines like "I'm not going to tell other players how to play the character" and "hes only joking" when ive seen his future spell list hes picked out.

He isnt endorsing it but he is activley choosing to do nothing about it. It could have been solved by simply saying that since you two are allies it doesnt affect, but no. He bans evil charachters and is allowing a super slaver sex master in his campain.
That's ... pretty much the definition of a "toxic player problem" right there.

I'd run, not walk, away from that game if they don't shape up. D&D rape is creepy and not funny. It's not a joke, and looking for in-game ways to block mind control is playing into the toxic game, not solving the problem.

(There's such a thing as kink- or sex-positive gaming, but that's the sort of thing all players come on board for, with open eyes. It's not the sort of thing you pull on your typical murderhobo group as a joke.)

[Durazno]

But only when forced.

Of course! If the whole group is comfortable enough to have characters who have sex with one another, that's pretty awesome.

[Segev]

The best mechanical advice is to simply acknowledge that you set your own DC for how charismatic the guy has to be to make you do anything. Set the DC to higher than he can possibly roll. You're not an NPC.

If the DM tries to set the DC, tell him that the rules don't let him do that, and if he does so, he's interfering in the matter between two players. Something he said he wouldn't do.

[WickerNipple]

I'd run, not walk, away from that game if they don't shape up.

Me too. But I'd kill his character first. :smallwink:

[mephnick]

There's no IC action that's not also an OOC action.

This should be the forum meme everyone spouts off in these threads. Not the other thing.

If a character is being a ****..the player is being a ****. Thus, OOC solutions are valid for every problem.