Tactical Mass Combat rules (Not the Paizo strategic battle)

[Kol Korran]

First version up and finished, open for review! :smallamused:

Hello folks. Paizo has written Mass combat rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/mass-combat) meant for a hex map, to be used in a game using kingdoms (Like Kingmaker I imagine, never played it). The system is fine for dealing with mass combat quickly, on a strategic scale. But what about the experience of playing the battle out for yourself? of the tactical battle, using the zoomed in terrain, tactics, and such? The Paizo rules emphasize the build up of your force, but then the forces just move to one another and "I roll to hit, I roll to hit back" till one dies. This thread tries to use those rules, extrapolate from them to a tactical level, but keep it compatible or close enough to the Paizo rules so they could be easily used.

In the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, in the module Sword of Valor the party gets to command an army of 100 4th level characters. They meet an enemy, have a hitting contest, meet another and so on. So I tried to develop this set of rules in order to make it more interesting. My party has 7 types of units in their grand army (totaling up to 700 combatants), and have faced various combat situations, from "take the ford", "choke point", "conquer the hill" and such. Not all has worked so well, and we're still testing it, but I've put some of the corrections here.

A few important notes:

This is my first Homebrew that I post on the forums. I usually did just small stuff which worked for my group. But some in the campaign thread asked for this, and I thought "Hey, if we can make it better together?" Which leads me to...
I'd love feedback from more experienced players, GMs, and designers. The system is far from perfect. I'm fairly ok on large ideas, but I usually mess thing up with individual numbers. Feel free to add and adjust. It's all in the works.
The game must flow: A major thing about mass combat is that they add spice, a sort of "mini game", and can enhance military campaign or such. But the rules shouldn't be too unwieldy and complex. I've tried to make most of it fairly intuitive and simple.
PF reliance and compatibility: I'm trying to keep it mostly in line with the PF mass combat rules, but have made a few minor adjustments at points (Such as the specials powers). Where there is a major deviation (Like with hit points) I've explained in the text.
Reasoning: I'm putting in reasoning of some of the more major concepts in spoilers.
Play testing: If some major concept was tried, I'll put down it's conclusions in spoilers.
No tables so far: Sorry, I just got mixed in the text for it. If anyone is inclined in ny way as to help me with this, I'll be obliged. Thank you, and sorry for the inconvenience.


Just one last thing: I like working with a soundtrack. I highly recommend this: All Drums Go To Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88SOwK7Ocsk). Ok, lets get started! :smallamused:

# 26/10/2014: Added Mounts, Clarified about magic and special powers.
# 25/10/2014: Finished the last of the rules. Open for review!
# 24/10/2014: Finished up "Recruitment and resources".
# 23/10/2014: Finished up "Commanders and boons", "Victory" and "PCs and NPCs on the battlefield".
# 21/10/2014: Learned how to make tables. Fixed first two posts. Finished "Terrain and weather" and "Tactics".
# 20/10/2014: Finished up to "the five steps'. Need to learn to make tables damn it! :smallannoyed:

[Kol Korran]

Tactical mass combat basics and the army template

Basics definitions:


The term "Army" denotes any composition of mostly the same kind of individuals. This can be 20 elven rangers lvl 2, or 500 dwarven fighter 4, or a horde of 2,000 dretches. For game purposes they are all "armies". An army is the basic "character" that acts in the battle- the unit/ miniature that moves on the battlefield, attacks and so on. If you have an army of say 50 archers and 50 fighters then for game terms these are 2 separate armies.
The term "Battle" refers to the entire battlefield- all armies on a tactical map. Similar to an "Encounter".
The term "Engagement" means two (or more) armies in melee combat. Battle is simultaneous. Clashing armies fight at the same time, not one before the other. Battle is conducted in 5 phases (see later). Initiative is used for movement only, to represent maneuvering. Initiative is rolled each round, to show the shifting change of battle.
The term Army Challenge Rating (ACR) Measures the army's "toughness", a sort of a CR for an army. It is used to determine many of the army's stats. It is affected mostly from what type of base usnit comprises it (race and class), and numbers of units. (Explained later). This works exactly as it does in the Paizo rules.
The term Commanders refers to notable leaders of armies that grant them special bonuses- mainly morale, but at times special abilities called Boons. PC's usually take up this position. These are exceptional leaders. Not everyone is considered a "commander", even if they lead the army. An army doesn't need a commander, but it greatly upgrade it's effectiveness. Commanders are explained below.
The battle grid is a regular square grid, not a hex grid. Each square is about 100 ft X 100 ft. it can fit 100 medium or small sized units, 25 large ones, and so on) A bigger army may take more than one square. Like a swarm, such armies can change shape (But all squares must share a full border (not a corner) with at least one other square.
Each "round" of tactical mass combat takes 1 minute.
The Morale Check: Used to change tactics, change strategy quickly and to prevent routing: 1d20+The army's morale boost (Army's morale + Commander's moral boost). DC is usually 15.
The role of PCs or notable NPCs. These can take one of 3 roles: Commanders, support or strike on their own on the battlefield (Like special forces). This will be explained later.


Why use the term "army" for small units? This was mostly done to fit with the Paizo terms, to avoid confusion. You could choose to allocate other terms to your armies, such as platoon, company, legion and more. That is more of a flavor decision though. I leave that to you.


The army template and stats


Army Challenge Rating (ACR): How tough an army is, a sort of a CR. This is affected by two factors. First- the basic unit's CR (For humanoids it depends on level: CR = PC level -1. For NPC classes it's level -2) So a 3rd level fighter and a 4th level warrior are both CR 2). Second, the army's size. Consult the following table.


SizeNumber of unitsACR
Fine1CR of individual -8
Diminutive10CR of individual -6
Tiny25CR of individual -4
Small50CR of individual -2
Medium100CR of individual
Large200CR of individual +2
Huge500CR of individual +4
Gargantuan1,000CR of individual +6
Colossal2,000CR of individual +8


The ACR affects many of the basic stats- hit points, offense, defense and so on. Note that for humanoid armies it's nearly impossible to find more than 5th level (Base ACR 4) troops, and these are considered high veterans!

Army size: The size of the basic troop plus the amount of troops affects how many "squares" does the army take. Bigger armies have more affect on the field, but are also harder to move. At times. Even if an army takes more than 1 square, it is still considered a single unit, and does not get extra actions. See combat for more info. (Note: In our games we consider horses taking 2 squares 10 X5, even though they are "large". Up to you on this)
Hp: Similar to a character's hit points, this symbolizes How much damage can the army take. Up to half hit points, the damage means wounds, but those can be healed. Beyond half and the army was beaten enough to take casualties, and it's total hp is reduced, unless you can get reinforcements. An army's hit point is ACRx basic unit's max hit points (So if you have an army of rouges of ACR 3 it's 3x8=24). This DIFFERS from the Paizo rules, see reasoning below.
DV: Defense value. This is like the army's AC, and is static. Different strategies, tactics, resources, terrain and more can affect this. The higher the better of course. An army's DV is 10+ACR. (So the above army has a DV of 13) This value is sometimes used for other rolls as well.
OM: Offensive modifier. Like the attack bonus. You roll 1d20 and add the OM and compare to the DV. If you passed it, then the difference is the damage to the enemy. An army's OM is it's ACR. (So the above army has an OM of +3). This value is sometimes used for other rolls as well.
Initiative: Battle is largely simultaneous. However, initiative is used to determine who moves first in the movement phase. Initiative is rolled each combat round. An Army's initiative equals to it's ACR.
Morale: An army's morale affects how easy it is for it to change tactics, keep on fighting and similar affects. Morale ranges from -4 to +4. If an army gets to -5 morale it disbands. Affects on morale are mostly affected by game events, and the tide of battle. A new army begins knowing with a morale of +0. Note that a Commander's can boost morale beyond this.
Tactics: The training an army had to fight in certain ways. These works as buffs and special effects in many ways. An army knows only a limited number of tactics. A new army begins only with standard (No effect) and withdraw (To try and disengage from an army). Armies may learn tactics through winning battles (Like XP. Explained later)
Speed: Basically the base speed of the base unit divided by 10 rounded up. (So 20 ft is 2, 30 ft is 3 and so on). A hustling army (Double move) is considered running, -2 to DV) This is used in the movement phase. Movement is also used for larger scale movement- on a strategic map, which is covered by the Paizo rules (Touched on briefly later).
Resources: These affect the army's ability beyond it's ACR (ANd do not affect it! Better weapons, mounts, potions, bards and more. These are divided to two- Equipment (Mounts, better weapons, potions and the like) And support troops (Healers, special scouts and the like). They are discussed later. Acquiring and maintaining resources often cost build points and/ or consumption points.
Specials: Depending on the type of troop (Monster or class). An army may have some abilities. Discussed separately at the end.
Consumption: An abstract to the logistic requirement of an army- expenditure per week. An army that cannot meet it's consumption loses morale. Consumption can be used to boosts a morale temporarily by "splurging" and expending more (Bring out the drinks and pay the minstrel to sing). An army can either have supply trains or posts, or it can carry it's own stock. An army's basic consumption equals to half it's ACR. The consumption by resources is affected by the army's size.

Why do the armies use the full HD of troops? Don't the Paizo rules use the average roll? They do, and we tried that. On the first battle a 1d20 swings too easily to destroy an entire army in one roll. This is fine fielding many troops in a strategic map, but on the tactical map, where the commander wishes to lead his troop over more than one battle, we chose to just double the hit points. It makes the battle slightly more gradual, and gives it more of a pace. Entire armies can still be crushed in 1 round, but it takes more tactics, and more extreme dice rolls. making it a rarer occurrence.
Why is consumption calculated per week? Not per day? My only reasoning is to keep with the Paizo rules, as this is a fairly minor rule, and it eases tracking and head ache. i may suggest an alternative later.

Sample armies

Eagles of Kenabres
Composition: Large army, 2nd level human fighters.
Size: 2 squares
ACR/ Init: 3/+3
hp: 30
morale: +2
move: 2 (+1 vs. fear and routing)
DV/ OM: 14/ +4 (Short range ability)
Tactics known (Max): cooperative fighting (2)
Resources: Short range weapons, 6 BP worth of supplies
Special: 2 extra feats (add +1 to OM or DV. Included), bravery (included)
Consumption: 3

Scouts of the Long Run
Composition: Medium army, 100 3rd level elf rogues
Size: 1 square
ACR/ Init: 2/+2
hp: 16
morale: +1 (+1 vs. fear and route)
move: 3
DV/ OM: 13/+3 (Long range ranged)
Tactics known (Max): Ambush, Dirty fighters (2)
Resources: Expert scouts, Improved weapons, Improves armor, Lon range weapons, alchemicals x3
Special: Low light vision, Sneak attack (+1 to OM when ambushing or flanking), evasion
Consumption: 4


Damage to armies, routing and defeat


Basic attack and defense: Similar to regular combat- Roll 1d20+ OM and compare to the DV of the defender. The difference is the damage dealt. You don't roll for damage. Rather, the difference between your attack to the opponent's DV is the damage dealt to the enemy. A natural 20 on attack overwhelms the enemy. It needs to roll a morale check vs. 15 or suffer -2 to DV and OM next attack phase.
Damage: If an army suffer up to half it's hit point the damage can be restored- those are wounds that can be healed. Any more and there are casualties amongst the army. If the army survives the engagement roll 1dACR for every round in the engagement the army's HP were half or below. Reduce this number from the max hp of the army (not the current). These hp can be restored by replenishing the troops, but not in any other way! An example: The army of Mighty Mighty Goblins (ACR 3) has 24 hit points max. It engages another army and on the second round of engagement has it's hit points reduced to 10. On the next round it suffers 3 more damage, but the worg cavalry finishes the enemy off. The goblins roll 2d3 to see how much hp casualty they lost (2 for rounds, 3 for ACR) and roll 4. Now the army has 7 hit points, and a max of 20 hp. They need to heal, and get more gobbos!
Routing: If an army's hit points are reduced to equal or less than its ACR, its commander must attempt a DC 15 Morale check. (If there is no commander, than the army tries, using only it's own morale) If the check fails, the army scatters and retreats from the whole battle, not just the engagement! (It routs). If it cannot retreat, it surrenders and is captured. When an army routs, all armies in the range of 2 squares can attempt one final Offense check at the fleeing army as a parting shot before it escapes. If the morale check succeeds, The Commander can choose between the army continuing to fight till destroyed (The army will make a routing check every round it survives) or let it scatter (without being attacked by the opponent) and reform after the battle. (With hp equal it's ACR +1) Such an army has a morale of -1, and will not engage on it's own unless the commander succeeds on another morale check. All friendly armies in the same battle suffer morale penalty of -1
Defeat: If an army's hp have been reduced to 0, the army is defeated. It's members are dead, with perhaps a few survivors. All friendly armies in the same battle field suffer a morale penalty of -2.



Magic, special powers and effects

Magic powers and special abilities of the army units themselves are abstracted and simplified- at most times they grant a bonus for defense or offense, or a simple rule for dealing with many complexities. You can find most of these under the Specials section, near the bottom of the rules. (As in Paizo). Check the Spellcasting special, which covers many cases.

Special effects, innovation, creativity and power are not gone from the battlefield, but is left to the purview of powerful PCs and NPCs, in their various roles. (See the appropriate section below). Some general guidelines for the use of pwoers and spells by such characters is as follows:

Targeting and range: Only medium or long ranged spells can affect armies not engaged. (As each square is 100 ft.) Also, two engaging armies are assumed to be mixed altogether all together in a big melee, so any affect that targets any of the engaged armies, fully affects the other as well. Spells that separate from friend from foe are ideal for this
Buff or debuff spells: In order for them to affect the effectiveness of the army they must affect at the length of the squares it occupies to affect the army. With regular medium armies this means at least 50 ft. (for area spells that means affecting at least 25 ft radius) for half a mass combat round (5 regular rounds). The effects grant a bonus to OM or DV according to the spell level, or any other effects that may fit. If a single spell can't achieve this effect (For example, a 20 ft radius fireball) than a few castings can be made to achieve these requirements, up to 2 standard actions per commander, or up to 10 actions per PC/ NPC high level support caster. (This will be explained later in detail)
Battle field manipulation: Spells that alter the battlefield must also affect half the length of a square to affect the square, for at least half a mass combat round (5 regular rounds) See under "Terrain and wether" For sample effects. Each effect can be discussed case by case.
Area damage: (Fireball and the like). An area spell must cover at least half the army's squares (25 ft radius per square) to affect an army. The caster makes a ranged attack (OM= CL+ spell level) Against the army's DV. Again, multiple casting can be used to get this affect.

[Kol Korran]

Five phases of tactical mass combat

The five stages of the mass combat round aim to represent the flow of combat: First gathering info, then making commanding decisions, then use archery, move and finally fight. As in D&D rounds, this is not a perfect simulation. It has worked for us so far .Note that it can be cumbersome at first to learn, and it is still under works.

An important note is that the imitative is used ONLY for movement. All other phases are simultaneous. Rounds take 1 minute, and the enemy won't wait till that.


Phase 1. Reconnaissance


Each Side in the conflict (NOT each army) gets 1 reconnaissance roll for every 500 units or fraction thereof under it's command (So a side with 800 troops will have 2 rolls). First you choose an enemy army you can see, and decide a type of information you'd like to try and establish:


- Estimated level of the army. (And thus you can conclude ACR)
- Army's morale bonus
- Army special features (Reveals 2 for every try, most obvious ones first)
- Resources of the army (Mounts, Weapons and armor are immediately known. This reveals the others. Reveals 2 for every try, most obvious ones first)
- Race and class of commander. (If you know this, you can go for an estimated level or specials)
- Presence of other prominent NPCs (Usually 5th level or more). goes same as for the commander after this.
- unused tactics of the army.


The roll is 1d20+ACR against the army's DV. If you succeed you learn the info, if not you fail.
Detect hidden movement: Some armies can move more stealthily (Especially those with an ambush tactic, or the "stealthy" special. Also regular armies moving slow). You can Call to try and find such armies. The DC is the army's "hidden movement" roll (See under movement).
The resource "Expert scouts" can grant an extra roll, but it uses the ACR of the army it's under, nd it can only be used against targets up to 8 squares away, but at +2. You can use them to find hidden movements, but only up to 8 squares from the army with the resource.



Phase 2. Commanding decisions

In this stage the army can change it's strategic approach, and it's tactics. Despite the name of this stage, the army doesn't have to have a commander. If it doesn't, just use the rolls and use the army's morale (with no other bonuses) when a morale check is needed.


The strategic approach is the army's general offensiveness and defensiveness. There are 5 levels. When entering a battle, the army decide t what level it is. it can freely change up one grade on the scale in this phase. An army can also radically change it's strategy, by succeeding at a DC 15 morale check- you can choose whatever strategy you like. On failure you stay at the former approach.


StrategyDVOM
Defensive+4C-4/td]
[td]Cautious+2-2
Standard+0+0
Aggresive-2+2
Reckless-4+4
Large200CR of individual +2


Changing tactics: As an army enters battle, it can use one tactic it knows. the army can use ONLY one tactic at a time. If the army wishes to change tactics, it can try doing this now by succeeding on a morale DC 15 check. failure means remaining in the old tactic. (See more under tactics)
An army can change both it's strategic approach and tactics at the same phase. It is not limited to one.


Why use strategic approach AND tactics? Isn't one enough? First, I wished it to be compatible with the Paizo rules. Secondly, they are nto exactly the same- Strategy is open to all armies, while an army is far more limited in tactics. While some tactics can imitate (And stack with) some strategies (Such as the relentless brutality tactic), many do not, and do completely different things. Lastly, while a tatic is usually static, Strategy can often change i nthe course of the battle, and gives more character to the army.

The Paizo rules use the same tble for strategy, but also have a "damage" column. Where is that? Since the attack bonus translates DIRECTLY into damage (See in the basic rules. Yes, it was so with Paizo), it seemed redundant and an over kill to add extr damage (Really just extra attack) on that. The far sides of the scale are effective as they re.


Phase 3. Ranged combat


An army must have ranged weapons in order to use ranged attacks.
Don't track specific types of weapons, instead you use short ranged weapons category (Sling, short bows and such) long range category (cross bows and long bows), and siege weapons
]*[Ranged battle is simultaneous. Both armies attack and defend at once, not one before the other. Calculate all affects as the armies were before the effects of the shooting.
An army can make ranged weapons and switch to melee for an engagement at the following phases (Movement and melee phases) at no penalty . An army can't shoot if it is allready engaged with another army in melee.
Siege weapons act on this stage as well, see Siege weapons in "Resources"
Consult the table for penalties to OM depending on range


CategoryShort range (+0)Medium range (-2)Long range (-4)
Short range weapons123
Long range weapons246
Siege weapons369


Aren't the ranges really close? If you consider that each square is 100 ft long, than not really. The penalties are supposed to resemble the range increments. Note that even t 1 square way (Adjacent) an army is NOT in melee with you. For that it needs to move "into" your territory. (See melee below)

Don't siege weapons have longer range? Tell the truth, I haven't tested this yet, so it may change. I wanted to put siege weapons close enough to the fighting to enable a reasonable (if low) chance for an army to get to attack them. More on how they work in the appropriate section (Resources)


Phase 4. Movement


An army's base movement is it's basic unit's movement divided by 10 (Rounded up). So a 30 ft movement translates to a move of 3. This is the amount of squares an army can move. All regular movement rules apply- rough terrain, diagonal movement, flanking and so on. (Some movements may "spill" to further rounds).
Initiative is rolled. You move in order from highest initiative to lower. This enables fast armies to block others, escape from others, or to engage others, trapping them in melee.
An army can hustle (double move) but then it is more open to attacks. It suffers a -2 to DV until it's next movement phase.
An army occupying 2 or more squares must always move where each of his squares shares at least one full border (NOT a corner) with another of it's squares, and they are all continuous. The army can focus it's force in one of it's squares. The army moves at the speed of it's slowest "square".
"Engaging an enemy" in melee combat requires you to move "into" it's square. On the map the army's maintain their position, but in game they fight each over their combined territory. The army's can still move by making "5 ft steps". To Disengage, an army must use the "withdraw" tactic. (In the commanding decisions phase)
In the case where attacks of opportunity (Yes, even on an armies; scale) might be appropriate, the attacking army engages the other army. An engaged army cannot make attacks of opportunity.
"Hidden movement": The army can try to evade detection, and try to avoid being seen by enemy scouts. The terrain must enable concealment. The army rolls 1d20+ACR against 10+ACR of the strongest army within 10 squares. Each additional army adds 1 to the DC. If successful, you move unseen. The army can halve it's movement to gain a +4 to the roll. Note that the enemy can expend reconnaissance rolls to try and find hidden movements (See under phase 1)



Phase 5. Melee


Once two armies are engaged, battle is simultaneous. Both armies attack and defend at once, not one before the other. Calculate all affects as the armies were before applying the effects of the combat.
Flanking still apply. In cases of a large army, it can be flanked if at least half of its' squares are flanked.
[*}Big armies: Must be connected as said above. You cannot attack a specific site of the army- if you try to split an army, soldiers rush in to fill the gaps. For game purposes, an army is undividable. For an effect (spell, weather or such) to affect part of the army, it must affect at least half of it's squares. (See magic and special powers under basic rules)
An engaged army can still move in "5ft steps", as long as it remains engaged with the attacking army, sharing at least one full border (Not just a corner)

[Kol Korran]

Terrain & weather modifiers

Fighting in a symetrical well lit barren 20ftx 20ft room is boring, and the same goes to the mass combat battlefield. The following terrain, lighting, weather and more can affect the battlefield just as the units fighting it and their commanders. The following list suggests common features, but is in no way all inclusive. Feel free to be creartive and adjust/ create more features.


Advantageous Terrain: Generally, if one army occupies a position of superiority (such as being atop a hill, in an urban area or protected by a deep river, the defending army increases its DV by 2. Different terrains can grant more advantage.
Battlefield Advantage: If an army is particularly familiar with a battlefield, has studied it or lived in it, it's OM and DV increase by 2.
Cliff: Between squares. Requires roll of 1d20+ACR to climb (DC 10. Different cliffs can have a higher or lower CR). The army climbs at a half of it's speed (considered hustling). Reduce DV and OM by 4. Impassable for mounted troops unless there is a specific approach.
Darkness: Darkness reduces all armies' OM by 2 and DV by 3. Increases Hidden movement rolls by 3.
Dim Light: Dim light reduces all armies' OM by 1. Increases hidden movement by 1.
Fog: Fog reduces damage by half and gives the armies a +2 bonus on Morale checks to use the withdraw tactic.
Fortifications: Between squares. Can increase defense between 2-16 for the army controlling the fortifications. Normal is 8. Often requires siege engines or engineer support to counter.
Forest: Grants cover for hidden movement.
Hill: Difficult terrain, Might grant cover for hidden movement (DM's discretion).
Mud: Counts as rough terrain (Halves movement)
Rain: Rain reduces the ranged combat by -4. May cause Mud.
River: Width of at least one square. Halves movement, Requires a roll of 1d20+ACR (DC 10) to cross for shallow rivers, or a bridge or engineer support for deeper rivers. An army crossing a river suffers -2 to DV
Sand: counts as rough terrain.
Sandstorm: A sandstorm counts as fog and deals 1 hp of damage to all armies during each Ranged and Melee phase.
Snow: Snow affects ranged attacks like rain, and affects damage like fog. May also cause mud.
Wind: The wind reduces ranged attack by -2 to –impossible, may reduce siege attacks by a lesser degree.

[Kol Korran]

Army tactics

Tactics represent the fighting techniques the army knows. It is a statistic the is tied to the army, not the commander (They get boons). Tactics give special advantages to special courses of actions and fighting styles.

Tactics basics

An army can have only 1 tactic active at a time. In order to change tactics, the army rolls a morale check (DC 15) at the commanding decisions phase. If he fails, he retains the old tactic.
When starting a battle, the army chooses an active tactic. There is no need to roll morale for that.
An army begins with two free tactics- Standard (No effect) and Withdraw (Disengaging from an army involved in melee). These do not count to the max tactics and army can know.
The max number of tactics an army can know is 1+half ACR (rounded up. So an army of ACR 1 or 2 can know up to 2 tactics. ACR 3 or 4 can know 3 tactics and so on.
An army learns new tactics through victories in battles. See under the "Victory" section. Once an army reached it's max tactics, it can no longer learn new tactics, but it can change them when gaining a new tactic (A sort of retraining)


The tactics
The following tactics are mostly by Paizo, with slight changes and slight additions to fit the nature of tactical mass combat. Feel free to add other tactics to your game.
Note: Not all of these have been tested fully, and matters of balance, power and "optimizing" remain to be seen.

Free tactics (All armies know them. They do not count towards the max known tactics)

Standard: Your army's attacks have no additional modifiers to its OM, DV, or damage.
Withdraw: Your army disengages from battle. You are adjacent to the enemy, and still need to win the initiative to be able to move before it engages you again.


Learned tactics

Ambush: Add +4 to your Hidden movement roll. If you manage to stay hidden till the round you attack the enemy you surprise it- For the next turn it cannot change strategy or tactics, and you gain a +2 bonus to OM. Otherwise battle proceeds the same.
Cautious Combat: Your army fights cautiously in order to maintain morale. Decrease its OM by 2, and add 3 to all its Morale checks. Cannot use reckless strategy.
Cavalry Experts: Your army's OM increases by 2 against armies that aren't mounted. The army must have the mount resource to use this tactic.
Cooperative fighting: Your army fights well while fighting with an ally. If it and another allied army fight the same army, (They need not be Adjacnet) each army get a +1 to OM and DV.
Defensive Wall: Your army fights defensively, taking actions to protect fellow units as needed. Decrease its OM by 2, and increase its DV by 2. The army grants +2 to DV to any friendly unit that shares a full border with it (not a corner). Cannot use reckless strategy.
Dirty Fighters: Your army uses trickery and unfair tactics to gain an advantage at the start of a battle. For one Melee phase this battle, its OM increases by 6. (After that Melee phase, the opposing armies knows to be ready for such tricks.)
Deception: Your army has learned how to trick the enemy. You can try to deceive each enemy army only once per battle, whether you succeed or fail. Your target rolls a morale check against a DC of 10+your ACR. If the army fail, you can change it's strategy in the following round to your choosing, and you gain +2 to OM vs them on your first attack.
Expert shooters: In a round following the army moving up to half it's movement, the army gains +2 to it's ranged attacks.
Fight on the run: The army doesn't reduce it's DV while making a double move (Hustling)
Take the initiative: +2 to init.
Full Defense: Your army focuses on total defense of the battlefield. Increase its DV by 4, and decrease its OM by 4. Cannot use reckless strategy.
Relentless Brutality: Your army throws caution to the wind and attacks with savage and gory vigor. Increase its OM by 4, and decrease its DV by 4. Cannot use defensive strategy.
Siege disruptor: If your attack on an army with siege engines deals damage the Siege engines cannot act the next round. This has no effect on an army with no siege engines.
Sniper Support: Your army holds some ranged units in reserve to attack a target enemy army during the Melee phase. If your army damages the target army in the Melee phase, it deals 2 additional points of damage from these ranged attacks. The army must have ranged attacks to use this tactic.
Spell breaker: Your army trained to disrupt enemy spell casting. When defending, make an attack against the enemy to disrupt casters. (Only if the enemy has spell casting ability) if successful, disregard the bonuses from spell. This has no effect on High level NPC or PC caster.
Taunt: Your army is skilled at taunting its opponents, provoking stupid mistakes and overconfidence in battle. The target army must attempt a Morale check (DC = 10 + your army's ACR) at the start of each Melee or Ranged phase; failure means it reduces its OM and DV against your army by 2 for that phase. If the target army succeeds at two of these Morale checks, it's immune to this tactic for the remainder of the battle.
Tight security: The army gains +4 to it's defense vs. reconnaissance attempts.

[Kol Korran]

Commander stats and boons

Commanders are characters that can boost up the army's abilities- their morale bonus can help the army change tactics and strategy faster. It makes the army more resistant to routing. Their leadership abilities enable the army to learn new tactics and gain morale faster, and lastly, they bestow special abilities called Boons upon the army.

An army doesn't have to have a commander. The term "commander" relates to someone with exceptional abilities (Usually PCs or special NPCs). If an army has no special commander, just consider all "commander stats" to equal +0.

Commanding stats
There are a few basic abilities and a few derived abitlies:

Charisma bonus- It iis component of the Commander's morale bonus and leadership
Commander's level- or HD if it's a monster.
Profession (Soldier) modifier: This represents the military experience of the commander. Helps morale and determines the max boons a commander can have. NOTE: Unlike the Paizo rules, we use the modifier, not the skill rank
Commander's morale bonus: It is added to all morale checks the army makes. It's value is: Cha modifier+ (Soldier/3 round down)+ leadership feat bonus (If you have it). For example if Sena the Dvevout has a charisma of 16, and a modifier of 10, he adds a +6 to the morale check. if he had leadership, it would be +9.
Leadership: The ability of the commander to command competent armies (Of higher CRs), and the a ability to teach and learn better from battle. It is a perquisite of some boons. It's value is: Cha modifier+character level (Or HD)+ leadership feat bonus (If you have it). For example, Sena the Devout is of 6th level, and has a charisma of 16, so his leadership value is 9. If he had leadership it would be 12.
Max boons: Boons reflect special abilities the commander bestows upon the army. Unlike tactics, they are all effective together. Like tactics, there is a max to them. Boons go where the commander goes, and stay with him/ her, not the unit. The max boons value is 1+ (soldier/5 round down). For example, Sena the devout has a modifier of +9 in soldier, so he has a max of 2 boons. Had he had 10 to 14, he would have a max of 3. All new commanders begin with no boons. gaining boons is discussed under victory, and mostly involves leadership.


Why the change from using Profession (soldier) ranks to the total modifier? Well, I saw no reason not to include the wisdom modifier. It's supposed to matter somehow, right? It also means it's not just a skill game, but a wisdom game, and allows for more varied characters, as well as "inherent" ability.

The following boons are mostly from the Paizo rules, with a few changes and additions. The list is not exhaustive, and I encourage others to add to it.


Bloodied but Unbroken: The commander inspires the army to be at its greatest in the most desperate times. When an army's hit points are at half its full normal hit points or fewer, it gains a +1 bonus on OM and DV. a commander must have Leadership 4 or higher to select this boon. At Leadership 10 or higher, this bonus increases to +2.
Bonus Tactic: Choose one tactic. The commander always knows this tactic, and the commander's army can use this tactic even if it doesn't know that tactic on its own. You can select this boon multiple times; each time you select it, choose a new tactic.
Defensive Tactics: The commander is especially good at defensive tactics. Increase the army's DV by 2. a commander must have Leadership 5 or higher to select this boon.
Flexible Tactics: The commander trains the army to be receptive to multiple orders during a battle. The army gains a +4 bonus on Morale checks to change tactics during a battle. A commander must have Leadership 6 or higher to select this boon. At Leadership 12 or higher, this bonus increases to +8.
Hit and Run: The commander drills the army in quick attacks followed by a fast retreat. After Engaging an enemy, the army may use the withdraw tactic with a +5 bonus the Morale checks. A commander must have Leadership 5 or higher to select this boon. At Leadership 10 or higher, this bonus increases to +10.
Hold the Line: The commander is skilled at convincing the army to maintain morale against dangerous opponents. If the army fails a Morale check to avoid a rout, it may reroll that check. It must accept the results of the second check, even if it is worse.
Live off the Land: The commander makes the army trap game, hunt, and fish to augment its food supplies. Reduce the army's Consumption and speed by half for any week this boon is used.
Loyalty: The commander inspires great loyalty in the army. The army gains a +2 bonus on all Morale checks. a commander must have Leadership 6 or higher to select this boon. At Leadership 12 or higher, this bonus increases to +4.
Merciless: The commander encourages the army to be ruthless in its tactics and spare no wounded enemies. The army gains a +2 bonus on opposed Morale checks to prevent another army from withdrawing and on the last Offense check against a routed army or one using the withdraw tactic.
Siege specialist: While attacking fortifications with siege engines, the commander adds +4 to siege engine's special attack against the fortification. (See Siege engines under resources)
Sharpshooter: The commander teaches his troops to better aim their volleys. Halve the penalties for medium and long range. This boon is useful only for armies who have ranged weapons.
Triage: Whether using magic, alchemy, herbalism, or folk knowledge, the commander drills the army in using emergency methods to treat wounds. Once per battle, the army may take a –4 penalty on its Offense check during the Ranged or Melee phase and heal damage equal to its ACR.


Example Commanders

Battle of Helm's Deep:

King of Rohan
Level: 8
Charisma: 16 (+3)
Soldier modifier: +12 (8 ranks, favored class, +1 wisdom)
Leadership Feat
Leadership score=8+3+3= 14
Morale boost=3+(12/3)+3= +10
Boons: Loyalty, Hold the line, Bloodied but unbroken (Max 3)

Saruman
Level: 16
Charisma: 12 (+1)
Soldier modifier: +8 (5 ranks, +3 wisdom)
No leadership feat
Leadership score: 16+1= 17
Morale Boost= 1+(8/3)= +3
Boons: Siege specialist, merciless (Max 2)

[Kol Korran]

Victory and experience

To the best of my searching and knowledge the Paizo rules do not deal with how armies and commanders gain new abilities. The following system relies on the Leadership score (See armies), amount of armies fought and the relative "experience" of the army or commander (Level/ ACR). The system is simple, but feel a bit clunky. Other suggestions are welcome.


Significant conflicts: For each partaking army, count up in each battle the number of enemies it had a significant roll in defeating (I leave that up to you, as it can involve defending, attacking, gathering info, distracting or more.) For each such army add 1 to the significant conflicts. This total number help decide whether an army gains morale or tactics, and whether a commander gains boons. It is sort of like an XP track, but simpler. Winning a whole battle gains 1 significant conflict point to all armies on the side. Losing a whole battle decreases by 1 point. The GM may add or subtract or add points for more difficult ventures. This number keeps adding up, from battle to battle till the army gains a new tactic, or the commander gets a new boon (Not just morale). Then is its set to 0 and the process begins a new.
At the end of each battle you roll 1d20+ Leadership (Level+ Charisma modifier+ leadership feat if s/he has it. A commander's stat, check commanders) 3 times- once for morale, once for tactics, and once for boons.
Morale roll: The DC is (25-ACR-significant conflicts). If you succeed, the army gains 1 more morale (Up to the army's max of 4!)
Tactics roll: The DC is the same as morale. (25-ACR-significant conflicts). If you succeed the army learns a new tactics of your choosing. Note the the army cannot exceed it's max tactics (1+ 1/2 the army's ACR rounded up. See tactics). If the army is already at it's max, you can change known tactics.
Boon roll: The DC is (25- 1/2 commander's level rounded up- significant conflicts). If you succeed you gain a new boon of your choosing. Note that the commander cannot gain more boons than his Max Boons (1+ soldier/5 round down. See commanders). If the commander's boon are at the max, he/ she can change known boons.


Example for victory

At the battle of Keeper's Canyon Sena's army managed to destroy one army, and block another from acting long enough to let the other armies to approach. So the GM decides the army has been in 2 Significant conflicts. Plus, from a previous battle in which they did not progress they defeated 1 army, so that's another significant conflict, for a total of 3.

Sena's leadership is +9 (6 from level, 3 from charisma) so he rolls 1d20+9 3 times, for morale, tactics and boons. His army has an ACR of 2.

The DC for morale and tactics is the same- 25- 2- 3= 20. Sena succeeds at morale, and plays out giving a rousing speech to his troops on their excellent performance. He fails on tactics. The army will need to learn more...

The DC for boons is a bit different- 25- 3- 3= 19. Sena fails here as well. He learning as a commander, but he needs to get a few more conflicts under his belt to get there.

Since Neither Sena or his army gained tactics or boons, they retain the significant conflicts score (currently 3) and will add to it on future battles. Had either learned a tactic or boon, the score would be set to 0, to start accumulating again.

[Kol Korran]

Individual characters (PCs and NPCs) on the battlefield

PCs and significant NPCs have more power than just troop commanders. Than often have special powers, spells and more that can affect the battlefield in many ways. One approach is to have them as as an elite unit doing special elite unit stuff (taking down siege weapons, enemy leaders and more), but this more like normal adventuring with the battle in the background. You can check out Tome of Battle (A 3.5 supplement) which deals nicely with this stuff. Here we deal with the actions of individual significant ffect characters in the context of a tactical mass combat, with the armies acting at the same time.

Three main issues are discussed:
1) What is the character- army interface? Where doesn't one begin and the other end? If an NPC is part of the army, what sort of freedom to act does it have?
2) How can a single character affect an entire army, when the two use widely different sizes, areas, stats and so on?
3) What about the time difference? Regular PF uses 6 seconds rounds, while these rules use 1 minute. How do you correlate the two?

I have addressed most things, but it's not flawless. Feel free to add or suggest corrections.

The role of individual characters within a battlefield

A significant individual on a battlefield can occupy one of 3 roles: Commander, Army Support, or lone field agent. These are aimed to give the various characters various roles on the battlefield, even if not all want to command armies.
Commander: A commander is an integral part of their unit. This is the only role where a significant individual gives their commanding bonuses (Morale boost, boons) to an army. The commander is assumed to be part of the army, and gains modes of transportation, skill and such as the army posses. (For example if the army is exceptionally stealthy, and the commander is not, they cover up and guide him/ her through it.) In order to give their commanding bonuses to the army (Including enabling to learn new abilities upon victory), the commander spends most of the mass combat round (1 minute) commanding the troops, and may use only 2 "regular rounds actions" (In any combination) for other affects (cast spell, use a special ability and so forth). You can say the commander spends 8 "regular" rounds commanding the troops, and 2 rounds "acting on their own".
Army support: Similar to the commander, this significant individual moves with an army, and is considered an integral part of it. However, the support does NOT give any commanding bonuses to the army. However, they can act far more freely and use up to 6 "regular round actions" each mass combat round. (The rest is used to dealing with the army maneuvering and fighting) This spot is ideal for casters with no commanding abilities, bards and other "support" characters.
Lone field agent: A character that is NOT a part of an army and works on their own. This is a bit like the single adventuring characters suggested above. These often act as scouts, saboteurs or other skillful characters. They can do up to 10 "regular round actions" per combat round, but it is usually assumed they take 10 or 20 to narrow down the rolling and time. In case they are engaged by an army, it is dealt as a "battle mini encounter" (See below).


Affecting an army
This has been dealt with under "Magic, special powers and effects" on the "basics" chapter, but the general rule is that to affect a square or army, you have to affect half it's surface, for half the time:

To affect a square, or the army in it, the affect most cover at least half of the square (So 50 ft square for regular armies and squares. or 25ft radius effects an more). Multiple uses of the affect (Like using two fireball spells, or two Channel energy charges) can be used to gin this affect.
If they are note instantaneous, they have to last t least half the round (5 regular rounds) to have effect that round. Again, multiple uses of the affect can be used to achieve this.
Only powers of medium or long range can affect armies not directly engaged. if the effect has a set range, use that range (Each square is 100 ft long).
If it is a damaging power, attack with 1d20+CL+spell level.
If the power manipulates the terrain for battle conditions, they must affect squares as noted above. If they cause conditions listed on the "terrain and weather" modifiers, use them.
It is beyond the scope of these rules to cover all possible powers and abilities. Use these guidelines to somehow guide you.


Affecting a character
The way an army affect a character depends on the role of the character, and the affect used.

In case of the commander and army support- They are considered a part of the entire army for terms of mass combat mechanics- do NOT play out small battles whenever the army engages an enemy. In case of powers affecting the entire army (debuffing spells, area powers and such), roll saves normally and play accordingly. In case of the enemy specifically targeting a commander or army support (A group of Babaus teleporting to assassinate). Play it out as a mini battle encounter.
In case lone field agent, either apply the affect of the power (Cloud kill and the like) as usual, or if this involves combat, treat it as a "battle mini encounter" (See below), or play out a quick skill challenge to evade the army.


Mini Battle encounters
For specifically moments it may come that significant individuals (Most likely the PCs) may have smaller encounter on their own. Either the lone field agent, or at times a commander or such being targeted. I have found no ideal way to deal with this, as it poses a major problem, that of time. Suddenly you have two different time scales- one of the tactical battle (with 1 round lasting 1 minute), and "regular PF time" (1 round lasting 6 seconds). Unless all of the PCs are in the same time frame, this tends to bog down the game (Not to mention other troops and the like).

I suggest to avoid this when possible. This is not the focus of mass combat, and has it's own time in regular adventuring. I highly advise to keep the two different time scopes separate.

Still, if you wish to (Or it comes to) playing it down, consider the following:

Due to the hectic battle and dealing with all the mayhem, the characters in "regular time" have only 5 rounds of combat before 1 round of mass combat passes. The extra times is spent on maneuvering, dealing with the surrounding army (Either telling them to back off or fighting them off or the like).
A commander does not give his commanding bonus to the army while such engaged. (Which may be the entire point of engaging them).
Instead of playing out the surrounding army helping the commander/ support troop consider them giving the significant individual a number of 2d4 +2 (from aid another) per round, that can be stacked together (It's not easy attacking a character who has a lot of support around). That is, if they are willing to engage the opponent that is. Otherwise, try to run this as a showdown between the significant characters only.
If at all possible, try to find a quick resolution. s this may bog down the game significantly.

In one of the battle in my campaign there was a teleporting demon commander, whom I wanted to test the mini encounters with. He teleported and neutralized the commander abilities of one character, engaging it in single combat, and then moved to another, and another... Each time this bogged down the game while the others waited for the "round" to pass (we played it at 8 regular rounds per normal round then)The engaged players tried to minimize strategy to help the game flow quickly, and tried speeding things up, which kind of ruined it.

I don't have a good solution for this issue yet. Currently I try to just avoid any more "mini battle encounters".

[Kol Korran]

Recruitment, resources and consumption

How do you build an army? On the Paizo site I found a lost for resources- potions, armor, mounts, who's price is measured in BPs, or Building Points. This is a term that comes from the Kingdom managing rules. I could not however find the price for an army of any ACR!

The following rules detail the recruitment of armies, and the 3 types of resources- permanent equipment, Limited use equipment and Support troops.


The value of 1 BP: Extrapolating from the resources given by Paizo, I come to an approximate value of 1BP= 5,000 gp. This is not an entirely accurate measurements, as there is a discrepancy between the values of different kind of equipment measured in gold pieces and BP. Still, this is a "rough and ready" measurement that should suffice in most cases, if the need comes up.
Consumption: While each army or resource has a purchase cost (In BP), they also have a consumption cost (Also in BP)- the cost to maintain the army and it's resources- payment, upkeep, ammunition and more. This consumption cost is deducted either from the kingdom's BP, if supply lines are available, or from the army's own provisions (A resource), if supply lines are unavailable. This cost is weekly, and if it is not met, it reduces the army's morale (See "Between battles")


Recruitment cost
As mentioned, I found no Paizo rules for this. My suggestion is as follows:

Determine the army's ACR. this decides it's cost in BP. CRs above ACR 5 may be extrapolated, but re considered very, very rare
The prices assume fresh unit,s with no known tactics. You may add 10% for 1 known tactics, or 30% for 2 known tactics.
The prices do not consider special abilities. It is beyond the scope of this work to try and assign a BP modifier/ cost for each special. We leave that to the situation, troops and the like.


ACRBP costConsumption]
115[1/week]
223[1/week]
330[2/week]
445[2/week]
560[3/week]


Resources

The different types of resources assume a medium sized army- 100 individuals. The cost increase, or decreases according to the army's size (NOT ACR!) The costs assume small or medium humanoid creatures. If this is not the case, modify according to the equipment rules in the core rule books.
A fresh army, with nor resources, is assumed to have non MW armor and non MW melee weapons. Their effects are included in the ACR.


Army sizecost adjustment
Fine (1)x 1/8
Diminutive (10)x 1/6
Tiny (25)x1/4
Small (50)x 1/2
Medium (100)x1
Large (200)x2
Huge (500)x4
Gargantuan (1,000)x10
Colossal (2,000)x20



The three resource types are permanent equipment, limited use equipment and support troops.
Permanent equipment usually cover things such as armor, weapons and the like They act like permanent bonuses. They usually require some consumption.
Limited use equipment is, as the name implies, a limited resource- potions, alchemical items, provisions. Once used, the resource is expanded (Or you reduce "uses"). They usually require no consumption.
Support troops are extra troops with some specialty, that come to the aid of the army- healers, casters, and the like. They always require consumption. If the army routes, roll a second DC 15 morale check. If it fails, the support troops are lost. If it succeeds, they reform back with the army at the end of the battle.
all weapon upgrades automatically affect ranged weapons as well (For simplicity. If you wish you can count them separately)
An army must logically be able to use a resource to benefit from it- Wolves can't use bows. Skeletons can't benefit from morale boosters, and so on.



ResourceAffectPurchaseConsumption
Improved armor+1 to DV, not magical3+1
Magical armor+2 to DV total15+2
Improved weapons+1 to OM, not magical5+1
Magical weapons+2 to OM total, Bypasses magic DR25+2
Special material weaponsBypasses DR1 per 50 gp of material+0
Short range weaponsEnables short range1+1
Long range weaponsEnables long range3+2
MountsSee description below12+2
Siege weaponsSee description below15 per engine+3
1st level potions (3 uses)See description below3-
2nd level potions (3 uses)See descriptions below15-
Alchemical equipment (3 uses)See description below3-
ProvisionsPay for consumption when no supply1BP per 1BP's worth-
Casters2/ battle upgrade 1 stat by +2 for 1 round10+3
Healers2/ battle heal twice ACR hp to the army.10+3
Expert scoutsGrant 1 reconnaissance to the army at +210+3
Morale boosters2/ battle increase morale by +2 for 1 round5+1
Engineer crewSee description below10+3



Mounts:The mounts resource assume mounts of animal intelligence with no significant powers, such as warhorses and war dogs. Mounts upgrade the mobility, DV/OM of the army, and size of the army. DV/OM both increase by 1. Speed rises to that of an encumbered mount. (4 for war horses and war dogs). Size changes according to the size of the mount, compared to the size of the individual unit of the army. Note: in our games horses occupy a 10X5 ft space, (despite being considered large), and thus just double the army's size. (Assuming medium creatures). I leave that up to you.
Siege engines: The army has ballistas, catapult or the like. At the start of each battle the army must decide whether to lay out and use the siege engine, or have it packed and not use it. If the siege engine is used it grants Ranged attack at +2, but the army's movement is reduced to 1. Furthermore, in order to fire the siege engine, the army must not have moved during the previous round. If used against fortifications, roll a second attack against 10+ fortification modifier, and reduce the damage from the fortification.
1st level potions: Limited- 3 uses only. The potions can heal 1 ACR worth of hit points, add 1 to OM or DV, or 2 to movement or morale. All for 1 round. With the GM's agreement, the type of potions can be divided into 3 different types, of 1 use each.
2nd level potions: Same as 1st level, but possibly with other effects, of 2nd level spells, as agreed between player and GM. For example- invisibility (Adds +10 to hidden movement).
Alchemical equipment: Limited- 3 uses only. Unlike potions, these are not decided upon purchase (A balancing factor against price). Enables various abilities tied to alchemical equipment, which are chosen on the spot: (These are examples, feel free to create more)



Alchemicleffect
SunrodThe army's square (including any engagements) is considered bright light.
Tanglefoot bagReduces engaged enemy's movement and initiative by 2 for 1 round
Alchemical droughtBy pass enemy's DR resistance for 1 round
Anti toxinNegate enemy's poison ability for 1 round
Smoke stickCreate fog terrain for 1 round (Self square or engagement



Engineer Crew: This crew can provide solutions for difficult kinds of terrain. The army must move adjacent to the terrain, and then guard the crew (The army cannot move). Until the work is done. Each obstacle is assigned a difficulty level (Similar tot fortifications). On the army's movement phase, the crew roll 1d20+ACR vs. a DC of 10+ obstacles' difficulty. The "damage" reduces the obstacle's difficulty. (And makes it easier for the crew next time. Once an obstacle's difficulty is down to 0, the hindrance is posed is overcomed. Note that An engineer crew may be used outside of battle to provide more lasting solutions, and tackle more difficult problems. Some "in battle" suggestions follow:



ObstacleDifficulty levelHindrance]
Fortifications2-16Adds defense to defender's DV, may block movement
Trapped area (Mines, holes, swamp)4-12Attack with difficulty level any enemy that enters
River2-8Lowers or blocks movement, reduces DV of crossers
Rocky terrain2-8]Halves movement.

[Kol Korran]

Special powers and abilities

Not all armies are composed from human warriors. In fact, in a fantasy world, most of them aren't! From Dwarf Fighter armies, elven ranger armies, to more exotic things, like an army of zombies, A squadron of Chimeras, or more! The following list suggest the effect special abilities, coming from either race/ type, or class. Most of these come from the Paizo rules (With a few slight tweaks), with some slight additions. Feel free to add to this list ,according to the troops you use. The list is alphabetical.


Ability Damage/Drain: This ability functions as the bleed ability.
Alchemy (Alchemist 1): Once per battle, the army can either use 1st level potions effect or use an achemical item effect (see resources). This doesn't cost BP.
Amphibious: The army isn't affected by water bodies of any sort.
Animal Companion (Druid 1, Ranger 4): The army's animal companions increase the army's OM by 1.
Aquatic: The army increases its OM and DV by 1 against armies in the water or on ships. The army decreases its OM by 2 against armies on land (unless the army also has the amphibious special ability, in which case it doesn't have this OM penalty).
Aura of Courage (Paladin 3): The army is immune to fear effects and automatically succeeds at Morale checks to avoid a rout.
Armor Training (Fighter 3): The army moves at it's full speed instead of encumbered speed.
Bleed:If an army suffered damage in melee, it suffers extra damage equal to the attacking army's ACR on the start of the next strategy phase.
Blindsense: The army reduces its OM and DV penalties by half from darkness, invisibility, and weather. (Round down)
Blindsight: The army takes no penalties to its OM and DV from darkness, invisibility, or weather.
Bomb (Alchemist 1): This ability functions as the breath weapon ability.
Bravery (Fighter 2): Apply the unit's bravery bonus on Morale checks against fear and routs.
Breath Weapon: Make another attack in the melee phase. If you pass the army's DV you deal damage equal to Your ACR
Brew Potion (Alchemist 1): The army can create potions for itself or another army on the move, without needing a facility. Described in the potions resource. You must pay the BP cost for these potions as normal.
Burn: This ability functions as bleed.
Burrow: The army can dig umove underground at half speed. During the phase the army uses burrow, it can attack or be attacked only by armies using burrow or earth glide.
Cannibalize: Disregard consumption due to the army's ACR for any week in which the army wins a battle and is allowed to feed on fallen corpses.
Challenge (Cavalier 1): Once per battle, the army may increase its OM by 2 against a target army, but it also reduces its DV by 1 against attacks from any army that is not the target army. These effects last for the rest of the battle.
Channel Negative Energy (Cleric 1): Twice per battle, in the Melee phase, the army deals hp damage equal to twice ACR points of damage against a living target army. If the army with this ability is undead, instead of dealing extra damage to an enemy army, it can use this ability to heal itself; if it takes an OM penalty equal to half its ACR for one Ranged or Melee phase, it heals a number of hit points equal to its Twice it's ACR. Negative and positive energy nullify each other.
Channel Positive Energy (Cleric 1, Paladin 4): Twice per battle, in the Melee phase, the army deals hp damage equal to twice ACR points of damage against an undead target army. If the army with this ability is alive, instead of dealing extra damage to an enemy army, it can use this ability to heal itself; if it takes an OM penalty equal to half its ACR for one Ranged or Melee phase, it heals a number of hit points equal to its Twice it's ACR. Negative and positive energy nullify each other.
Climb: The army treats the Defense of fortifications as 25% lower than normal. This benefit doesn't apply if the fortification can't reasonably be climbed (such as a moat or wall of force).
Combat Style (Ranger 2): Increase the army's OM for either ranged attacks or melee attacks by 1..
Construct: The army is immune to disease, fear, paralysis, and poison. It cannot be routed.
Create Sandstorm: Once per battle, the army can affect the field of battle with the sandstorm battlefield condition. The sandstorm lasts for the rest of the battle.
Create Spawn: If the army destroys a living army of equal or greater size, it may immediately recover a number of hit points equal to twice its ACR or create a new army of its type but two sizes smaller than itself.
Damage Reduction: See the entry for significant defense.
Darkvision: The army takes no OM or DV penalties in dim light or darkness.
Discovery (Alchemist 2): This ability functions as bleed.
Disease: If the army damages an enemy, the enemy becomes diseased and takes a cumulative –1 penalty to its OM and DV each day after the battle. Curing the disease requires a full day's rest and a leadership roll (DC 20+ACR of enemy army)
Divine Health (Paladin 3): The army is immune to disease.
Earth Glide: The army ignores fortifications made of earth or stone and can burrow under other fortifications as if using the burrow special ability.
Eidolon (Summoner 1): This ability functions as the animal companion ability.
Energy Drain: If the army damages an enemy, it reduces the enemy's OM and DV by 1 for 24 hours for each round it was dealt damage.
Evasion (Monk 2, Rogue 2): An army that attacks this army halves its OM bonus from the spellcasting ability and halves the extra damage from a breath weapon.
Extra combat feat (Fighter 1, 2, 4): Add +1 to DV or OM. Chosen at creation.
Fast Healing: Each Strategy phase, this army regains a number of hit points equal to half its fast healing value. (Round up) Outside of battle, The army heals fully after half an hour's rest. This ability does not reduce casualties (See basics).
Fast movement: (barbarian 1, Monk 3): Add +10 ft to the base movement, or +1 to the movement overall.
Favored Enemy (Ranger 1): The army increases its OM by 1 against an army of a type of creature chosen from the ranger favored enemy list.
Favored Terrain (Ranger 3): The army halves any terrain penalties in his favorite terrain. Enemy armies bonuses for for advantageous terrain are halved as well.
Fear: If the army damages an enemy army, that army must attempt a Morale check (DC = 10 + attacking army's ACR). Failure means the enemy army is afraid and can't attempt an Offense action to attack during the next phase. If an army fails a Morale check during a phase in which it is already afraid, it routs.
Ferocity: The army continues to fight even if demoralized or nearly dead. If the army is defeated or routed, it may continue to act for one more Melee phase, and its OM and DV are reduced by 4 for that phase.
Flight: If the army doesn't attack in the Melee phase, it can't be attacked with melee attacks except by an army with flight. The army ignores difficult terrain (but not weather) and Defense bonuses from City Walls, but not other fortifications.
Flurry of Blows (Monk 1): In the first Melee phase, increase the army's OM by 1. In the second and subsequent Melee phases, increase it by 2 instead.
Grab: The army's units latch onto their opponents, making it difficult to escape. The target army takes a –2 penalty on Morale checks to resist a rout or use the withdraw tactic.
Hex (Witch 1): When you create an army with this ability, choose one of the following effects: Once per battle, the army can heal a number of hit points equal to its ACR. Or, The army can create potions for itself or another army without on the move, without needing any facilities. You must pay the BP cost for these potions as normal.
Hunter's Bond (Ranger 4): When you create an army with this ability, choose one of the following: Either the animal companion special, or Companions- one allied army's OM is increased by 1 as long as it is adjacent to you. The ally changes each battle.
Immunity: If an army is immune to a particular special ability (such as poison), an enemy army with that ability doesn't gain those benefits against this army. For an army with many immunities, also see significant defense.
Incorporeal: The army takes no damage from non-magical attacks, and only half damage from magical attacks. It ignores enemy DV bonuses from armor resources. It automatically succeeds at checks to withdraw. It has a mobility advantage in all kinds of terrain.
Inspire Courage (Bard 1): The army increases its OM by 1 and gains a +2 bonus on Morale checks against fear and routs. Alternatively, the army may apply these bonuses to an allied army in the same battle.
Invisibility: Increase the hidden movement bonus of the army by +10 (See movement). Any army attacking this army takes a –2 penalty to its OM for that attack. Any army attacked by this army takes a –2 penalty to its DV against its attacks. Armies that can't see invisible creatures can't prevent this army from withdrawing.
Judgment (Inquisitor 1): Once each strategy phase, the army may choose to increase its damage by 1, increase its DV by 1, heal a number of hit points equal to its ACR, or treat its attacks as magic weapons. This ability is suspended for any phase in which the army is unable to attack because of fear, and ends immediately if the army routs.
Ki Pool (Monk 4): The army's attacks count as magic weapons.
Lay on Hands (Paladin 2): This ability functions as channel positive energy, only it heals ACR worth of hit points, not twice ACR
Light Blindness: The army decreases its OM and RV by 2 in bright light.
Light Sensitivity: The army decreases its OM and RV by 1 in bright light.
Low-Light Vision: The army takes no penalties for dim light.
Mercy (Paladin 3): At the end of a battle, the army can cure a disease on one allied army.
Mindless: The army never fails Morale checks, but must always use standard tactics and strategy.
Mobility: If the units have a form of mobility that gives them an advantage in the battlefield's terrain (such as boggards in a swamp), increase the army's OM by 1 for that battle against armies without such mobility.
Mount (Cavalier 1): The army's mounts increase the army's OM and DV by 1.
Paralysis: Each time the army damages an enemy army, reduce the enemy army's DV by 1.
Petrification: This ability functions as paralysis and breath weapon.
Plant: The army is immune to fear, paralysis, and poison.
Poison Resistance (Alchemist 2): If the army takes poison damage, reduce the damage by half of the unit's ACR (round up_.
Poison: This ability functions as bleed.
Pounce: The army increases its OM by 2 on a melee round in which it moves and engages an enemy.
Powerful Charge: As pounce.
Rage (Barbarian 1): Once per battle, An army can rage. Increase the army's OM by 2 for melee, decrease its DV by 1, and add a +1 bonus on its Morale checks against fear and routing. While this is in effect, the army can't use the tactics cautious combat, defensive wall, expert flankers, hold the line, sniper support, or withdraw; nor can it use the defensive or cautious strategies. If using such a tactic or strategy, you immediately switch to the standard tactic or strategy.
Rake: The army increases the damage it deals by 1. (Assuming it hits)
Regeneration: The army regains a number of hit points equal to half its regeneration value each strategy phase. When an army with regeneration is reduced to 0 hp, it is defeated only if at least one enemy army survives at the end of that phase to finish off the regenerating creatures. the army can suffer no permanent casualties unless specific tools to overcome the regeneration are used (Such as fire vs. trolls). Outside of battle, the army is fully healed in half an hour.
Rend: As rake
Resistance: See the entry for significant defense.
Rock Catching: The army increases its DV by 1 against ranged attacks. This increases by an additional 1 if the army is attacked with siege weapons or thrown rocks.
Rock Throwing: The army is considered to have the siege weapons ability, only it's movement isn't reduced to 1.
Rogue Talent (Rogue 2): The army gains the bleed ability.
Scent: The army reduces its OM and DV penalties from darkness, invisibility, and weather by half.
Shield Ally (Summoner 4): Increase the army's DV by 1.
Significant Defense: The army has a significant defense such as powerful damage reduction or numerous immunities and/or resistances. Increase its DV by 5 or 10, but only against armies that can't overcome those defenses. In some cases, the GM might rule that an army is simply undefeatable by an enemy army because of its defenses..
Smite Evil (Paladin 1): In one Melee phase per battle, the army may increase its OM by 2 against an evil army. If the target army is undead or evil outsiders, the OM increases by 4 instead.
Sneak Attack (Rogue 1): The army increases its OM by 1 when making succeeding to surprise an enemy (See hidden movement), when flanking, when using the dirty fighting tactic.
Spell Resistance: The army increases its DV by 6 against armies with the spell casting ability.
Spell casting: If an army's units can use magic (from either spell-like abilities or actual spell casting), increase its OM and DV by the spell level of the highest-level spell the individual unit can cast. If any of the army's offensive spells has a range of medium or long, the army can make ranged attacks. These bonuses may be limited by the times per day they can be used. (1/ day, 3/ day and so on).
Stealthy: High natural stealth- gains +4 to it's hidden movement roll.
Stunning Fist (Monk 1): This ability functions as paralysis.
Summon: The army can summon more of their kind. The Army can summon an adjacent army of 1 size smaller (ACR-2). Once per battle, which stays till the rest of the battle, or till the summoning army is destroyed. For simplicity, you can reduce the army's ACR and DV by 2, and reduce the army's hit points by twice the individual HD. If that coems to 0 (If the summoning army has an ACR of 2 or lower), assume the summoned army has hp equal to half a hit die.
Swarm: The army takes half damage from non-magical attacks, but 1-1/2 times as much damage from are magical attacks. It ignores DV bonuses from armor resources. It can't harm an army with the incorporeal or significant defense ability. It automatically succeeds at checks to withdraw.
Tactician (Cavalier 1): The army automatically learns one tactic (usually the cavalry experts tactic); this doesn't count toward an army's maximum number of known tactics.
Teleportation: The army ignores the Defense of fortifications. It automatically succeeds at checks to withdraw. Ethereal travel and similar effects also grant this ability. The army can move any distance on the battle map. Outside tactical battle, an army with teleportation can travel to any hex on the same day (its speed is irrelevant and not hampered by difficult terrain).
Trample: As pounce
Tremorsense: The army reduces its OM and DV penalties from darkness, invisibility, and weather by half.
Trip: Each Melee phase, the target enemy army reduces its DV by 1 until the end of the phase.
Undead: The army is immune to disease, fear, paralysis, and poison. Its DV increases by 2.
Unnatural Aura: This ability functions as fear, but applies only to animals (Including armies with animal mounts).
Vortex: This ability functions as paralysis, but only against targets on or in the water.
Weapon Specialization (Fighter 4): Once per battle, increase the army's OM for either ranged or melee attacks by 2.
Whirlwind: This ability functions as paralysis.
Wild Shape (Druid 4): Once per battle, the army may gain the aquatic, amphibious, climb, darkvision, flight, low-light vision, or scent special abilities, but loses the spellcasting ability while this is in effect. The army can end this ability in any later phase.

[Kol Korran]

In Between battles

This chapter deals with some major issues between battles. Paizo deals with these to some extent. The following rules are mostly some modifications, or attempts to address things that were not addressed. They do not cover all issues, just those that have come during play test.

Recovering wounds and casualties

If an army suffered hit point damage up to half it's hit points during the battle, then this hp represent only wounds, and not fatalities. As such these can be recovered. If an army suffered more than half it's hit points, it has fatalities- roll 1dACR for each round the army had suffered hit points and was under half hit points (Including the round in which it first came to this condition. This number represent the hp lost to fatalities, which are reduced from the max army hit points!
An example: The army of Mighty Mighty Goblins (ACR 3) has 24 hit points max. It engages another army and on the second round of engagement has it's hit points reduced to 10. On the next round it suffers 3 more damage, but the worg cavalry finishes the enemy off. The goblins roll 2d3 to see how much hp casualty they lost (2 for rounds, 3 for ACR) and roll 4. Now the army has 7 hit points, and a max of 20 hp. They need to heal, and get more gobbos!
Each day the army spend at full rest it can restore ACR hit points. If it moves half it's speed over land and not engaged in battle, it can restore half ACR hit points (Round up).
Fatalities can only be replaced by extra troops and recruitment.
There are other healing options: The healers resource can use it's abilities out of combat (Twice per day total), Sme goes for special abilities that heal hp damage (Their limit in battle applies for the day as well). A commander with Triage can use his ability once per day, and healing potions can be used as many times as you have uses left. A PC or significant individual may have similar abilities (Such as channel energy) which may help here as well.


Consumption and provisions

Each army has a rate of consumption based on it's ACR and resources. It represents upkeep, maintenance ammunition and pay. The figure is the amount of BP an army uses per week. These are taken either from the kingdom's treasury (If supply lines are open) or from the army's provisions (A resource, which is bought on a 1 per 1 basis).
If an army can't meet it's consumption requirements, it's morale is reduced by 2 for the rest of the week. This penalty is commutative. If an army reaches a morale of -5, it automatically disbands.
An army can boost his morale by +2 for the next day by consuming it's ACR worth in provisions ("Eat and drink for tomorrow we die!" sort of splurging)



Scouting ahead

There are two ways to handle this. One is by creating small scouting missions for sneaky PCs to play out, with the balance between finding some important information and getting caught/ tipping the defending army off. The other is to use a simplified "Scouting roll"
Each Side in the conflict (NOT each army) gets 1 reconnaissance roll for every 500 units or fraction thereof under it's command (So a side with 800 troops will have 2 rolls). At the GM's discretion, the expert scouts resource can add 1 roll per resource, though they are meant for "in battle" purposes, for that specific army, not the side's purposes.
You immediately know the following (No need to roll): The races, army size, location and general equipment of the 2 largest armies, any obvious displayed abilities, any obvious fortifications, and all terrain. Hidden terrain, traps or more are not known.
Before rolling, the army can try and locate a hidden army, or such (Trapped terrain, magically imbued place. Anything out of the ordinary which tries to be hidden). The army rolls the usual roll against the hidden army's "hidden movement" DC (As if the army rolled 10, but it adds a +4 for moving at half speed) or an hidden obstacle/ Feature Difficulty rating. The roll is compared against all hidden items on the battlefield, for finding it out.
These rolls learn more vague info than the "in battle" info reveals. For each success you learn one of the following pieces of info:

- The races, army size, location and general equipment of 2 more armies (most obvious ones first).
- The most notable commander in the battlefield: Race, class, most notable command feature: (morale bonus, boon, special ability)
- The most notable army support character on the battlefield: Race, class, 2 most notable support feature (spells or type of spells, special ability).
- Difficulty grading of an obstacle, terrain or fortification. (See under engineer's in resources, and terrain)

[Kol Korran]

Major and minor issues to be worked out

# Find a better way to deal with the Mini battle encounters. The time difference is a killer. The thematic and game opportunities this arise cannot be ignored.
# A list of boons to differentiate from tactics. (From discussion with Haktar)
# A way to differentiate the types of units more. Through a basic template? Through specific tactics? Civilization style maybe... Possible unit types: Melee, ranged, sneaks, siege breakers, Vs. magic users, flyers and so on... (From discussion with Haktar)
# Is the "Strategy" useful or redundant? On one hand it adds a modifier that both complicates modifier tracking, and grants enormous bonuses/ penalties with "Relentless brutality" or "full defense". On the other hand, players in playtest seemed to like them. (From discussion with Haktar)
# The role of morale, and when should a roll be invoked in Combat. What situations may make an army falter or flee? (From discussion with Haktar)
# "Delay action" in Mass combat. Can/ should it be incorporated, and how? Can for example an army delay his shooting till an enemy charges within range?
# Will damage be concluded from the initial attack roll (The D20?) It makes it a very fickle and risky business... Or should some other damage mechanic be used? Which one? Assign damage roll per army? By ACR or what? (From discussion with Haktar)
# Need more testing with engineers, obstacles and overcoming them. (As well a siege engines)

[Haktar]

Hi, first of all thanks for posting these rules. I'm planning to run my group through a mass combat soon and I was considering expanding the rules to include actual positions on a map as well. I will probably use at least the movement/positioning rules :smallsmile:.

I'm already using additional rules from 'Ultimate Battle' (3rd party extension to the mass combat rules), but they don't go quite far enough for my tastes. They also add additional battle phases, an abstraction for different unit positions and attempt to adress the squishiness of small armies plus a whole bunch of special abilities, boons, tactics and resources.

I'll go by your headlines:

Magic, special powers and effects
I would prefer not to deal with individual spells here, instead either grant an appropriate boon (for generalized 'buffs' or 'debuffs' etc.) if a PC or NPC can cast these or treat the spellcasting as a special ability of the army and abstract it into OM/DV. Otherwise one ends up with lots of different spell effects to consider.

Army tactics and Commander stats and boons
Full Defense and Relentless Brutality are added as standard tactics in Ultimate Battle, but I was considering to add an effect to army movement with these tactics. Reduced speed (or no movement) with Full Defense and additional movement with Relentless Brutality. That might also help to make them more distinct from Defensive Wall and Furious Charge (+2OM/-2DV; added in UB, makes disengaging harder).

Regarding the tactics and boons in general, the division between them is kind of unclear. Generally I would expect tactics to be stuff that the army can do, potentially requiring resources or special abilities and boons to be thing that depend on the commander. I could see a boon based on a paladins aura of courage or a rangers favored terrain but would move most of the "The commander teaches his army to X" boons to tactics, especially since Bonus Tactic is already a generic version of this.

Victory and experience
I actually like this a lot, it looks relatively quick and painless but is a good deal more nuanced than "win a battle, gain a tactic". What is so 'clanky' about this? The only change I can think of immediately is a modifier for the morale roll based on winning/losing a battle.

Individual characters (PCs and NPCs) on the battlefield
As you already wrote: the time difference kills this, mostly because only one or two of PC's will be present during the melee of two armies. Which is to bad, "beheading" an enemy army would be a cool thing to enable (morale checks for everyone! :smallbiggrin:).

Major and minor issues to be worked out
# Mini battle encounters and gaining abilities, see above
# Strategy
Feels redundant as far as I'm concerned, the effect can be replicated for individual units with tactics (especially if you make these part of the standard tactics). They are also hard to visualize and quite bland.
# Consumption
I'd stay with weekly, partly because this means less bookkeeping for overland travel and partly because the integration with the kingdom building rules would probably suffer from switching to daily consumption.

Theres also some stuff I'm considering:

Morale
The morale system in Ultimate Campaign doesn't have enough impact for my tastes, the one added in Ultimate Battle is too indiscriminate on the other hand :smallsigh:. My current idea is to use a list of events that lead to morale checks against routing, for example: army reduced to half hp, army takes X damage in a single round, friendly army routs. The last one in particular is important to me, a fleeing unit should be a significant win/setback during a battle, potentially leading to the collapse of one side. (Although it should be possible to get routing armies back into the fight!) I was also considering morale boosts for speeches by the PC's or the use of fortifications.

Casualties
The method you propose is probably less prone to distortions due to mid-battle healing and the like, but I'd prefer to account for casualties after the battle is over, partly to speed up play but mostly because I think winning or losing the battle should have an impact on casualties (or the dissolution of armies). A victorious army will have a much easier time to care for wounded soldiers or reform routed armies after all.

I'm also not entirely happy with the wide range of damage for succesfull attacks by armies all the changes to army hp and/or acr only mask this slightly, but I'm not sure what to do about it.

Edit, missed the newest part:
Recruitment, resources and consumption
As far as I can tell, recruiting an army costs nothing, but you need to pay the upkeep costs. Hmm, will have to look into this before we start on the kingdom building stuff.

I like the teams of clerics or scouts, they should work much better with most setting assumptions than armies of 100 clerics or 100 wizards. A good deal of the other stuff is handled in a very similiar way in UB, although under the assumption that armies start with light armor and no shields, which gives you a couple of additional upgrades. Also mounts and related things like chariots and howdahs are included.

[Kol Korran]

Glad to see your reply Haktar. I have seen the post before, but I haven't had the time to phrase a proper response to it it. Now that I have the time...



I'm already using additional rules from 'Ultimate Battle' (3rd party extension to the mass combat rules)I prefer to rely on things accessible for everyhone here. I certainly don't have access to this book, so I don't know where to reference to. But I'll take your word for it! :smallwink:



Magic, special powers and effects
I would prefer not to deal with individual spells here, instead either grant an appropriate boon (for generalized 'buffs' or 'debuffs' etc.) if a PC or NPC can cast these or treat the spellcasting as a special ability of the army and abstract it into OM/DV. Otherwise one ends up with lots of different spell effects to consider. Hmmmm... I think I may have been a bit confusing here. For army spellcasting, we use the spellcasting special (It wasn't up when you posted) which is dealt with pretty as you suggested. The indication here was for significant PCs/ NPC. I should probably move this there.

I do like to keep the option of dealing with specific spells (Under the guidelines) individually, as it gives the support casters more room to be creative and make cool effects. You'd be surprised at how few spells are actually applicable on the battle field in the armies level (At least in the levels I have played so far, spell levels 1-3. Haven't tried higher). The requirement for range covering area, and avoiding hitting friendly units in an engagement severely limits the range of spells applicable. My party (5-6th level played), have so far used blasty spells such as fireball and diamond spray, mass buff spells (Mainly the cleric, things like bless and prayer), and on one occasion a Sleet storm spell to create a sort of fog effect on enemy archers (Which everyone thought was cool).

I will explain about the spellcasting and powers as appropriate.


Army tactics and Commander stats and boons
Full Defense and Relentless Brutality are added as standard tactics in Ultimate Battle, but I was considering to add an effect to army movement with these tactics. Reduced speed (or no movement) with Full Defense and additional movement with Relentless Brutality. That might also help to make them more distinct from Defensive Wall and Furious Charge (+2OM/-2DV; added in UB, makes disengaging harder). Hmmm... an interesting approach. I was thinking that these basic approaches are sort of covered by Strategy, and that the tactics present special training to enable troops to "go further"... sort to speak. (As a reckless strategy with relentless brutality will bring it up to +8/-8, which his brutal and suicidal indeed). So I'm unsure about having them as standard, but I'll need to think about it.

As to giving them some sort of an extra movement effect? I'm unsure... giving extra movement, or withholding it is a HUGE thing on the battlefield (A difference between 3 and 4 movement is felt quite strongly). It will make the relentless brutality a MUST for moving on the battlefield (When there is no reason for that), and full defense a real liability. I'd prefer to keep the tactic as it is.


Regarding the tactics and boons in general, the division between them is kind of unclear. Generally I would expect tactics to be stuff that the army can do, potentially requiring resources or special abilities and boons to be thing that depend on the commander. I could see a boon based on a paladins aura of courage or a rangers favored terrain but would move most of the "The commander teaches his army to X" boons to tactics, especially since Bonus Tactic is already a generic version of this. Hmmmm... I couldn't put my finger on it, but you are right- the distinction is quite vague. Quite a few time my players and me were going like "Wait, this is a tactic or boon?". So yeah, a better definition is needed, I fully agree.

Mechanically speaking there are three big differences: The first is quite obvious, but is important- tactics are things that go with the army, and boons go with the commander. This is important if the commander changes armies, which can reasonably happen. Secondly, an army can use only one tactic at time, and changing between tactics require a moral check. So they represent a gaming choice in each battle. Boons however are all effective, all at once, and require nothing except a high enough leadership for the commander to choose them. They are sort of "Free add on" bonuses, which present no gaming choice other than the initial choosing of them. Last difference is that all tactics are useful ONLY in the battle, while some boons (At least in the Paizo rules, but one or a few in my rules as well) can be used outside of battle (Such as triage)

I'm not sure of how to differ tactics from boons, but I don't think the idea to base them on the commander's class/ special abilities (Such as aura of courage, or channel energy) is preferable. First, the mass combat game is a mini game inside the big game, and as such I think that it should give an opportunity to "build a commander class/ build", not dependent on the individual game abilities. Secondly, these are supposed to be COMMANDER boons, things that pertain to the control and use of the force, not their individual character game abilities. I think differing their commander boons from their class abilities add depth to the character, customization and depth. (The rouge becomes the astute tactician, the Fighter shows much martial ability and so on). Lastly, I think quite a few players will come at you with the complaint "Wait, I can already channel energy, why do I need to learn something else to use it on the army?" I think that for this the guidelines for both the magic powers and special abilities section covers this nicely. In short, I think commander boons should relay abilities that differ than just expanding there commander's innate abilities to an entire army, but add another level of game play, something appropriate to the mass army rules themselves.

As to the "bonus tactics". I kind of like it. Though it gives the army an extra tactic, it's not JUST that. First of all, it is a tactic BEYOND the army's max tactics. (which is usually 2 or 3, so 1 more is a lot). Secondly, as a boon, it goes with the commander. So even if he comes to a brand new army, he automatically gives them a tactic. Lastly, it is a SPECIFIC tactic, so that comes to reflect the type of commander it is- Sneaky, caring, devious, relentless and so on. I quite understand your dislike of it, but I like it. (Though I may change my mine with a good argument of course. :smalltongue:)


Victory and experience
I actually like this a lot, it looks relatively quick and painless but is a good deal more nuanced than "win a battle, gain a tactic". What is so 'clanky' about this? The only change I can think of immediately is a modifier for the morale roll based on winning/losing a battle. It felt a bit clanky that after every battleeach player rolled 3 rolls which were not quite intuitive or similar to mechanics they knew. But the players learn about them. I like your idea about a modifier for how the battle went... Suggestions?


Individual characters (PCs and NPCs) on the battlefield
As you already wrote: the time difference kills this, mostly because only one or two of PC's will be present during the melee of two armies. Which is to bad, "beheading" an enemy army would be a cool thing to enable (morale checks for everyone! :smallbiggrin:). Yeah. I'm trying to wreck my head about this ever since we tried it. Kind of a bugger... :smallannoyed:


Major and minor issues to be worked out
# Strategy
Feels redundant as far as I'm concerned, the effect can be replicated for individual units with tactics (especially if you make these part of the standard tactics). They are also hard to visualize and quite bland. I quite feel the same, and would have removed these... only my players really came to like them on our last session. They liked the added complexity (And despite the length of the rules, they are not that complex). It was something else to play with, so... I dunno... I'm still trying to think about this. Also, though there are similar tactics, you need to invest in them (Under the Paizo rules at least), and they stack with strategy, to quite frightening effect.


# Consumption
I'd stay with weekly, partly because this means less bookkeeping for overland travel and partly because the integration with the kingdom building rules would probably suffer from switching to daily consumption.
Hmmmm... Ok. Weekly it is.


Morale
The morale system in Ultimate Campaign doesn't have enough impact for my tastes, the one added in Ultimate Battle is too indiscriminate on the other hand :smallsigh:. My current idea is to use a list of events that lead to morale checks against routing, for example: army reduced to half hp, army takes X damage in a single round, friendly army routs. The last one in particular is important to me, a fleeing unit should be a significant win/setback during a battle, potentially leading to the collapse of one side. (Although it should be possible to get routing armies back into the fight!) I was also considering morale boosts for speeches by the PC's or the use of fortifications.
Hmmmm, currently the morale is used in 4 cases:
- Avoid routing.
- Change strategy drastically.
- Change tactics.
- A bunch of minor other cases (Saving vs. fear effects, some tactics)

I like you idea of expanding the list, a lot of what you suggested make a great deal of sense. The "morale boosts for speeches by the PCs" is a bit tricky, but should be worked out. (We work with the Giant's Diplomacy Rules. Shouldn't be too hard to implement). I'd love to work with you on these!


Casualties
The method you propose is probably less prone to distortions due to mid-battle healing and the like, but I'd prefer to account for casualties after the battle is over, partly to speed up play but mostly because I think winning or losing the battle should have an impact on casualties (or the dissolution of armies). A victorious army will have a much easier time to care for wounded soldiers or reform routed armies after all. Um... the casualties are applied after the battle... I will check later to see if I was unclear and fix it. But I like your idea that victory/ defeat should affect this somehow. Not sure how exactly (Perhaps increase/ decrease the number of dice representign the casualties?)


I'm also not entirely happy with the wide range of damage for succesfull attacks by armies all the changes to army hp and/or acr only mask this slightly, but I'm not sure what to do about it. I don't understand what you're referring to. "Wide range of damage"? You mean due to the wide range of the 1d20 roll? Can you explain?


Edit, missed the newest part:
Recruitment, resources and consumption
As far as I can tell, recruiting an army costs nothing, but you need to pay the upkeep costs. Hmm, will have to look into this before we start on the kingdom building stuff.I think armies must cost something, otherwise investing in them, resources and consumption becomes laughable. Thee must be some sort of a balancing feature, otherwise there is no reason to automatically recruit 10 ACR 5 armies instead of 10 CR ones other than consumption, which is not a big difference. True, I only briefed the Kingdom rules, so there may be another balancing factor, but I haven't seen it.


A good deal of the other stuff is handled in a very similiar way in UB, although under the assumption that armies start with light armor and no shields, which gives you a couple of additional upgrades. Also mounts and related things like chariots and howdahs are included.
I added mounts (Forgot about them). Not sure how chariots will work, and what Howdahs ARE (I'll need to check). The armor upgrades idea is interesting, would love to hear more of it. Is there a chance you can post it, or does it infringe on copyrights?
---------------------------------------
Thanks for the response! :smallsmile:

[Haktar]

I prefer to rely on things accessible for everyhone here. I certainly don't have access to this book, so I don't know where to reference to. But I'll take your word for it! :smallwink:


Hmm, I sort of assumend those rules are open content, but after checking the book I'm not entirely sure how to parse the relevant legalese :smallconfused:, will have to ask I guess.



I do like to keep the option of dealing with specific spells (Under the guidelines) individually, as it gives the support casters more room to be creative and make cool effects. You'd be surprised at how few spells are actually applicable on the battle field in the armies level (At least in the levels I have played so far, spell levels 1-3. Haven't tried higher). The requirement for range covering area, and avoiding hitting friendly units in an engagement severely limits the range of spells applicable. My party (5-6th level played), have so far used blasty spells such as fireball and diamond spray, mass buff spells (Mainly the cleric, things like bless and prayer), and on one occasion a Sleet storm spell to create a sort of fog effect on enemy archers (Which everyone thought was cool).


Good points, I may be overly cautious here. I can easily see players being annoyed that they cant use a Wall of Stone or something like that when it makes arguably more sense than in many dungeons :smallamused:. I can see some problems though, what happens when support casters are also capable of similiar magic? Is that just ignored based on the separation into 'army/resouce' vs 'significant character'? Leaving this open enough to deal with spells on a case by case basis is probably a better idea than trying to translate them into a bonus boon for the relevant commander though, that would probably take to much of the fun out of casting. Plus, more work for a similiar end result :smallannoyed:.



Hmmm... an interesting approach. I was thinking that these basic approaches are sort of covered by Strategy, and that the tactics present special training to enable troops to "go further"... sort to speak. (As a reckless strategy with relentless brutality will bring it up to +8/-8, which his brutal and suicidal indeed). So I'm unsure about having them as standard, but I'll need to think about it.


One of the problems I have with the strategies is that I'm not sure how to describe them. What it means for all the armies on one side to be 'reckless' or 'cautios' is still pretty clear but gets complicated when individual armies have complimenting (or contradicting) tactics. The stacking example actually makes me more wary of including strategies, how much more reckless than Relentless Brutality can you get?



As to giving them some sort of an extra movement effect? I'm unsure... giving extra movement, or withholding it is a HUGE thing on the battlefield (A difference between 3 and 4 movement is felt quite strongly). It will make the relentless brutality a MUST for moving on the battlefield (When there is no reason for that), and full defense a real liability. I'd prefer to keep the tactic as it is.


I was thinking of using that to make to middle way - Defensive Wall - more attractive, for example by not giving it a penalty but possibly require shields or something like that. But good point, having all armies go with Relentless Brutality to move over the field would be bad. And penalising the defensive is unlikely to be helpful either.

On a somewhat related note: How would one shoot recklessly or relentlessly brutal? :smallwink: I guess the OM bonus should apply to melee only, especially since the tactics drawback will most likely not apply. On the other hand, the same could be said of the strategy.



Hmmmm... I couldn't put my finger on it, but you are right- the distinction is quite vague. Quite a few time my players and me were going like "Wait, this is a tactic or boon?". So yeah, a better definition is needed, I fully agree.

Mechanically speaking there are three big differences: The first is quite obvious, but is important- tactics are things that go with the army, and boons go with the commander. This is important if the commander changes armies, which can reasonably happen. Secondly, an army can use only one tactic at time, and changing between tactics require a moral check. So they represent a gaming choice in each battle. Boons however are all effective, all at once, and require nothing except a high enough leadership for the commander to choose them. They are sort of "Free add on" bonuses, which present no gaming choice other than the initial choosing of them. Last difference is that all tactics are useful ONLY in the battle, while some boons (At least in the Paizo rules, but one or a few in my rules as well) can be used outside of battle (Such as triage)


Hmm, I had considered tactics to be representing the armies abilites, but that overlooks that only one can be active at a time. That makes the boons more important as well, as you mentioned.



I'm not sure of how to differ tactics from boons, but I don't think the idea to base them on the commander's class/ special abilities (Such as aura of courage, or channel energy) is preferable. First, the mass combat game is a mini game inside the big game, and as such I think that it should give an opportunity to "build a commander class/ build", not dependent on the individual game abilities. Secondly, these are supposed to be COMMANDER boons, things that pertain to the control and use of the force, not their individual character game abilities. I think differing their commander boons from their class abilities add depth to the character, customization and depth. (The rouge becomes the astute tactician, the Fighter shows much martial ability and so on). Lastly, I think quite a few players will come at you with the complaint "Wait, I can already channel energy, why do I need to learn something else to use it on the army?" I think that for this the guidelines for both the magic powers and special abilities section covers this nicely. In short, I think commander boons should relay abilities that differ than just expanding there commander's innate abilities to an entire army, but add another level of game play, something appropriate to the mass army rules themselves.


Hmm, maybe this wasnt quite clear on my part. I agree that boons shouldn't just 'port' character abilities into the mass combats. But I think some ties to the characters would not be too limiting. For example, consider a boon like this (just a quick example, havent really considered the consequences):

Hidden Paths: The commander uses his knowledge of the battlefield to aid his troops in attacking from surprising directions. Add a bonus of +X to hidden movement rolls.

I could easily see a rangers Favoured Terrain as a possible entry to this, although Knowledge(Nature) ranks or even the ability to cast big enough illusions might also qualify the character. So much like you said, something that does more than just apply the bonuses of these abilities to a battlefield situtation. Not all of these need to be tied to character abilities of course, but I think there a some nice possible extensions of the general themes that go with certain classes.



As to the "bonus tactics". I kind of like it. Though it gives the army an extra tactic, it's not JUST that. First of all, it is a tactic BEYOND the army's max tactics. (which is usually 2 or 3, so 1 more is a lot). Secondly, as a boon, it goes with the commander. So even if he comes to a brand new army, he automatically gives them a tactic. Lastly, it is a SPECIFIC tactic, so that comes to reflect the type of commander it is- Sneaky, caring, devious, relentless and so on. I quite understand your dislike of it, but I like it. (Though I may change my mine with a good argument of course. :smalltongue:)


Yeah, I did not consider the limit of one active tactic. Since the boons stack it makes sense to have them in addition. Although now I'm kind of missing an option for the armies to learn similiar abilities independent of who commands them, might give them a little more character :smallamused:.

As for the bonus tactic, I'm not actually opposed to that. I just thought it would make sense for the bonus tactic to subsume a bunch of the others, but see above.



It felt a bit clanky that after every battleeach player rolled 3 rolls which were not quite intuitive or similar to mechanics they knew. But the players learn about them. I like your idea about a modifier for how the battle went... Suggestions?


Hmm, looking at it again I guess one could just say that a battle won is a significant conflict (or maybe its worth more than one?) while a loss could set the army back by a similiar way.
For the morale roll specifically could a win guarantee a +1 to morale while a loss makes it harder to gain as per the above? Not sure if this is too unbalanced since Morale only goes up to 4.



Hmmmm, currently the morale is used in 4 cases:
- Avoid routing.
- Change strategy drastically.
- Change tactics.
- A bunch of minor other cases (Saving vs. fear effects, some tactics)

I like you idea of expanding the list, a lot of what you suggested make a great deal of sense. The "morale boosts for speeches by the PCs" is a bit tricky, but should be worked out. (We work with the Giant's Diplomacy Rules. Shouldn't be too hard to implement). I'd love to work with you on these!


I have a hard time thinking of appropriate DCs here, but that might not be necessary. I would only expect these kind of grand pre-battle speeches if armies either meet on the open field, i.e. well-aware of each other, or perhaps during a siege. In those cases one could go for opposed rolls with the enemy leader, making it a contest of who can whip up his troops better. This should probably be a morale bonus for the battle only. But again, with morale only moving on a scale of up to 4 that might be too much? Not sure if that should be based on Prof(Soldier) necessarily, I would at least include an option for Perform(Oratory).



Um... the casualties are applied after the battle... I will check later to see if I was unclear and fix it. But I like your idea that victory/ defeat should affect this somehow. Not sure how exactly (Perhaps increase/ decrease the number of dice representign the casualties?)


Hmm, since you base the casualty rolls on ACR, could it work to treat army size as one more/less for casualty purposes? Might not be much of difference and runs into some weirdness for armies with low ACR. You could also reduce/increase the number of rounds the army is considered engaged (it should be engaged and below half hp, otherwise armies 'bleed out' over the course of the battle, but I think you had that before actually).



I don't understand what you're referring to. "Wide range of damage"? You mean due to the wide range of the 1d20 roll? Can you explain?


Yes the wide range of the d20 roll and also that 'to hit' and 'damage' are in the same roll I guess. Using standard strategies and tactics, two armies do d20+ACR-DV damage to each other, which in the case of equivalent ACR means d20-10 damage. Considering the low hp totals of units with low ACR that means they are often likely to annihilate each other in a single round. Now, the rules are designed to resolve mass combats quickly so this makes sense. As a player it could be quite frustrating though to have a single dice roll dominate other concerns like positioning, tactics and resources. Basically the combats might be a little too dependend on luck and players actions might have too little influence. I haven't tested the rules in actual play though, I might be exaggerating this.

You addressed this by using full hit dice rather than average. In Ultimate Battle the suggestion is to instead move the modifiers in the army size table such that medium armies are at ACR=CR+6, which also leads to higher xp totals (while the OM/DV bonuses cancel each other out). I feel that both are addressing the symptoms rather than the problem itself, but as I said I'm not sure what to do about it.



I think armies must cost something, otherwise investing in them, resources and consumption becomes laughable. Thee must be some sort of a balancing feature, otherwise there is no reason to automatically recruit 10 ACR 5 armies instead of 10 CR ones other than consumption, which is not a big difference. True, I only briefed the Kingdom rules, so there may be another balancing factor, but I haven't seen it.


Armies are created instead of building an improvement of which you can build only a limited number per kingdom turn (read: month) depending on kingdom size. I haven't seen a limit on what kind of armies can be created though. The army is ready in the month after it was recruited (i think) essentially making the first upkeep also the unit cost. I would prefer to differentiate between recruitment and upkeep though. I will have to look at the kind of upkeep an army costs and what kind of costs building generally have. I'm not all that familiar with the kingdom building rules yet.

[Kol Korran]

Sorry for the late reply, I usually come on the site only a few days now days. Real life is brutal. By the way, if you're interested in reading about the play-test (Sort of) that the rules have been formed for, you can check the DM's log for the Wrath of the Righteous in my sig. Look at the contents post (Second post) for the second module (Sword of Valor), in which these rules were (and still are) used. Warning though- it doesn't deal just with mass battle, and as such is interspaced a lot with roleplay dynamics, classic D&D small party adventurind and such.

Now, to your comments.



Good points, I may be overly cautious here. I can easily see players being annoyed that they cant use a Wall of Stone or something like that when it makes arguably more sense than in many dungeons :smallamused:. I can see some problems though, what happens when support casters are also capable of similiar magic? Support casters are by definition significant individuals. And as such their spells are covered spell by spell basis, as per guidelines. This gives characters not keen on commanding, but with spells or other abilities to confer them still (And more than the commander, since they have more "individual" actions than a commander).


One of the problems I have with the strategies is that I'm not sure how to describe them. What it means for all the armies on one side to be 'reckless' or 'cautios' is still pretty clear but gets complicated when individual armies have complimenting (or contradicting) tactics. The stacking example actually makes me more wary of including strategies, how much more reckless than Relentless Brutality can you get? I too have a problem with strategies that seem to do the same thing, and have a similar name, such as the examples you've given. At first I thought that different designers did tactics and strategy, but these tactics say that you can't use certain contradicting strategies...

So yeah, I'm not quite sure what to do here. In my game the PCs didn't go for the extreme strategies (They ARE extreme!), and playing demons, I have at times used reckless strategies, two times with relentless brutality, to devastating (And ultimately not fun) effects. I think I will currently use these rules for the current game, but I will probably lose the strategy when this is over, and leave those kind of effects to tactics.


On a somewhat related note: How would one shoot recklessly or relentlessly brutal? :smallwink: I guess the OM bonus should apply to melee only, especially since the tactics drawback will most likely not apply. On the other hand, the same could be said of the strategy. You can usually fluff things as needed- they shoot more arrows but break defensive formation and so on. Ranged units usually come close enough that melee units might engage them (Many units have the capabilities of both), mainly due to the short ranges, and the range penalties. A large enough side usually puts melee units to block (A barrier wall), to prevent such attacks.

I see your concern, it was our concern as well, but I think it is important to keep these options for ranged units as well, due to the proximity to melee and also not to take down more options for them, of which there are not so many.


Hmm, maybe this wasnt quite clear on my part. I agree that boons shouldn't just 'port' character abilities into the mass combats. But I think some ties to the characters would not be too limiting. For example, consider a boon like this (just a quick example, havent really considered the consequences):

Hidden Paths: The commander uses his knowledge of the battlefield to aid his troops in attacking from surprising directions. Add a bonus of +X to hidden movement rolls.

I could easily see a rangers Favoured Terrain as a possible entry to this, although Knowledge(Nature) ranks or even the ability to cast big enough illusions might also qualify the character. So much like you said, something that does more than just apply the bonuses of these abilities to a battlefield situtation. Not all of these need to be tied to character abilities of course, but I think there a some nice possible extensions of the general themes that go with certain classes.

Hmmm, this IS an interesting idea. Would require expanding the Boons quite a bit. I suggest basing them on skills rather than abilities though, to enable access to them by all characters, though some characters will obviously be more favored due to their favored skill choice. We can start working on this together here, though I will be a bit slow due to posting times.


Yeah, I did not consider the limit of one active tactic. Since the boons stack it makes sense to have them in addition. Although now I'm kind of missing an option for the armies to learn similar abilities independent of who commands them, might give them a little more character :smallamused:.
Um... The armies learn tactics of their own as well... An ACR 2 army can learn 2 tactics on it's own, and a commander with the "extra tactics" boon can dd a 3rd tactic, applicable only when s/he commands the army. Still one active tactic, but more tactics learned. You use the moral check in the second phase to change between known tactics.


Hmm, looking at it again I guess one could just say that a battle won is a significant conflict (or maybe its worth more than one?) while a loss could set the army back by a similiar way.Sounds reasonable. I'll update this.

For the morale roll specifically could a win guarantee a +1 to morale while a loss makes it harder to gain as per the above? Not sure if this is too unbalanced since Morale only goes up to 4. I don't understand what you mean here.


I have a hard time thinking of appropriate DCs here, but that might not be necessary. I would only expect these kind of grand pre-battle speeches if armies either meet on the open field, i.e. well-aware of each other, or perhaps during a siege. In those cases one could go for opposed rolls with the enemy leader, making it a contest of who can whip up his troops better. This should probably be a morale bonus for the battle only. But again, with morale only moving on a scale of up to 4 that might be too much? Not sure if that should be based on Prof(Soldier) necessarily, I would at least include an option for Perform(Oratory).Hmmm... So a sort of a contest between the sides? Interesting. The end giving a total "battle spirits" modifier (Stackable with moral) for this battle only? Sounds interesting... For simpler conflicts (Or ones without an enemy leader, like facing the hordes of the Abyss) Some sort of DC might be based as to the sort of a commander that COULD command the army of this ACR, or perhaps modifiers for conditions? (Fighting in a magical fog of despair). Need to think of this.


Hmm, since you base the casualty rolls on ACR, could it work to treat army size as one more/less for casualty purposes? Might not be much of difference and runs into some weirdness for armies with low ACR. You could also reduce/increase the number of rounds the army is considered engaged (it should be engaged and below half hp, otherwise armies 'bleed out' over the course of the battle, but I think you had that before actually).I suggested the second idea earlier (I think). I will talk to a few of my friends and will see.




Yes the wide range of the d20 roll and also that 'to hit' and 'damage' are in the same roll I guess. Using standard strategies and tactics, two armies do d20+ACR-DV damage to each other, which in the case of equivalent ACR means d20-10 damage. Considering the low hp totals of units with low ACR that means they are often likely to annihilate each other in a single round. Now, the rules are designed to resolve mass combats quickly so this makes sense. As a player it could be quite frustrating though to have a single dice roll dominate other concerns like positioning, tactics and resources. Basically the combats might be a little too dependend on luck and players actions might have too little influence. I haven't tested the rules in actual play though, I might be exaggerating this.

You addressed this by using full hit dice rather than average. In Ultimate Battle the suggestion is to instead move the modifiers in the army size table such that medium armies are at ACR=CR+6, which also leads to higher xp totals (while the OM/DV bonuses cancel each other out). I feel that both are addressing the symptoms rather than the problem itself, but as I said I'm not sure what to do about it.

We have used the full hp method, and it had worked in most cases. There are exceptions at times (In the last session and army was obliterate by two other armies attacking him, and getting really good rolls). I think it works fairly well for now, and keeps things quite tense, but what other sort of damage mechanism do you suggest?


Armies are created instead of building an improvement of which you can build only a limited number per kingdom turn (read: month) depending on kingdom size. I haven't seen a limit on what kind of armies can be created though. The army is ready in the month after it was recruited (i think) essentially making the first upkeep also the unit cost. I would prefer to differentiate between recruitment and upkeep though. I will have to look at the kind of upkeep an army costs and what kind of costs building generally have. I'm not all that familiar with the kingdom building rules yet. I haven't had time to fully go over the kingdom rules as well, so I'm not sure how this works. The army recruitment costs were there to balance the cost of resources in my specific campaign, and as it seemed reasonable to me. A bit of a problematic point I see.

[Haktar]

Sorry for the late reply, I usually come on the site only a few days now days. Real life is brutal. By the way, if you're interested in reading about the play-test (Sort of) that the rules have been formed for, you can check the DM's log for the Wrath of the Righteous in my sig. Look at the contents post (Second post) for the second module (Sword of Valor), in which these rules were (and still are) used. Warning though- it doesn't deal just with mass battle, and as such is interspaced a lot with roleplay dynamics, classic D&D small party adventurind and such.


No worries, I'm not necessarily fast about replying either. The campaign log was actually what brought me here, since I was planning on using some Mass Combat in my own campaign I was happy to see you post your houserules here, made me register :smallwink:.

I will have an opportunity to test the rules early next week as well, after I was able to introduce my group to the dwarven army they were promised a couple of sessions ago (outlined on the paizo forums here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhh7?UCMass-Combat-Building-Army-Encounters#5)). We will use the rules from this thread in a fight against an army of orc marauders, though likely without the strategy track. We'll see how it goes.



Support casters are by definition significant individuals. And as such their spells are covered spell by spell basis, as per guidelines. This gives characters not keen on commanding, but with spells or other abilities to confer them still (And more than the commander, since they have more "individual" actions than a commander).


I guess I could have worded that better, I meant support casters as in the 'Casters' resource. Maybe these are supposed to be low-level enough not to have to worry about spells like fireballs?



You can usually fluff things as needed- they shoot more arrows but break defensive formation and so on. Ranged units usually come close enough that melee units might engage them (Many units have the capabilities of both), mainly due to the short ranges, and the range penalties. A large enough side usually puts melee units to block (A barrier wall), to prevent such attacks.

I see your concern, it was our concern as well, but I think it is important to keep these options for ranged units as well, due to the proximity to melee and also not to take down more options for them, of which there are not so many.


I will look into this during our groups battle, see how it works out and what my players say. Maybe consider some additonal tactics tailored for ranged units to give more options here?



Hmmm, this IS an interesting idea. Would require expanding the Boons quite a bit. I suggest basing them on skills rather than abilities though, to enable access to them by all characters, though some characters will obviously be more favored due to their favored skill choice. We can start working on this together here, though I will be a bit slow due to posting times.


Gladly! I didn't really have time for this yet, but will likely have some more time next week.



Um... The armies learn tactics of their own as well... An ACR 2 army can learn 2 tactics on it's own, and a commander with the "extra tactics" boon can dd a 3rd tactic, applicable only when s/he commands the army. Still one active tactic, but more tactics learned. You use the moral check in the second phase to change between known tactics.


Yes, the armies learn tactics but some abilities an army might reasonably have don't really lend themselves to be represented as a tactic. To go back to the Hidden Paths example: Why couldn't an experienced army that has the 'expert scouts' resource also be more capable at hidden movement? On the other hand tying these abilities to boons (and therefore commanders) makes the commanders more important for the battle, which is nice, especially for the PCs.



I don't understand what you mean here.


In effect this would gaurantee gaining at least one morale after a win. A loss would set the armies back as far as 'significant conflicts' are concerned, they would count as having one significant conflict less. Thats a bit like upping the DC by one but the effects might last longer as it makes all the following morale rolls harder (well, until you succeed anyway).



Hmmm... So a sort of a contest between the sides? Interesting. The end giving a total "battle spirits" modifier (Stackable with moral) for this battle only? Sounds interesting... For simpler conflicts (Or ones without an enemy leader, like facing the hordes of the Abyss) Some sort of DC might be based as to the sort of a commander that COULD command the army of this ACR, or perhaps modifiers for conditions? (Fighting in a magical fog of despair). Need to think of this.


For armies without a leader it might also make sense to base the DC on the relative strenghts of the armies (as measured in XP or ACR). Something like DC 20 + (Enemy ACR - Allied ACR) maybe?



We have used the full hp method, and it had worked in most cases. There are exceptions at times (In the last session and army was obliterate by two other armies attacking him, and getting really good rolls). I think it works fairly well for now, and keeps things quite tense, but what other sort of damage mechanism do you suggest?


I don't really have a good idea here, there is no good point to go from CR to some kind of damage die that I can see. Looking at regular combat damage, its fairly random at low levels but is dominated by static bonuses quite quickly afterwards making it more predictable overall. I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe our test next week will work well enough.

[Kol Korran]

Sorry for the late reply, a hectic time here ltely.



I will have an opportunity to test the rules early next week as well, after I was able to introduce my group to the dwarven army they were promised a couple of sessions ago (outlined on the paizo forums here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhh7?UCMass-Combat-Building-Army-Encounters#5)). We will use the rules from this thread in a fight against an army of orc marauders, though likely without the strategy track. We'll see how it goes.I would love to hear how it went! If we can test things in different games, it could add the experience to the debate.


I guess I could have worded that better, I meant support casters as in the 'Casters' resource. Maybe these are supposed to be low-level enough not to have to worry about spells like fireballs? That was in general my intention yes. The "casters" resources is supposed to represent casters who can cast 1-2nd level spells. The entire system is built on the assumption that 5th level characters are the elite of regular troops. I know this doesn't work for all fantasy settings, but I was going by what the Paizo rules explained. I think that if you start using many forces with lots of SLA/ spells/ Supernatural abilities, than the system kinda breaks down, unless you highly simplify things.


Maybe consider some additional tactics tailored for ranged units to give more options here? That could be a good idea actually. AA bit more work, but possible. I'll add that up to the plan to expand on Boons and separate them from tactics more.


In effect this would gaurantee gaining at least one morale after a win. A loss would set the armies back as far as 'significant conflicts' are concerned, they would count as having one significant conflict less. Thats a bit like upping the DC by one but the effects might last longer as it makes all the following morale rolls harder (well, until you succeed anyway). My main beef here is that armies usually learn more from defeat than from winning. And I'd also like to give them that chance to get back tougher into the fight. It also makes for better stories. Otherwise, a defeated army just gets hammered more, and has even less chance of being relevant any time in the near future.


For armies without a leader it might also make sense to base the DC on the relative strenghts of the armies (as measured in XP or ACR). Something like DC 20 + (Enemy ACR - Allied ACR) maybe?Sounds interesting, need to think about this.


I don't really have a good idea here, there is no good point to go from CR to some kind of damage die that I can see. Looking at regular combat damage, its fairly random at low levels but is dominated by static bonuses quite quickly afterwards making it more predictable overall. I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe our test next week will work well enough.

Ok, Our group will play in a few hours, and there are supposed to be two main battles there- one in a mist covered area, the other is the final siege of Drezen, which should be... interesting. (If they get to it that is. A VERY busy session up ahead). SO maybe I'll have more to add when we're done.

[Haktar]

I would love to hear how it went! If we can test things in different games, it could add the experience to the debate.


It went quite well, the group defeated the enemy army without major casualties. As this was meant mostly as an introduction into the rules that was just what I had intended.

We played mostly with the rules as presented here, but left out the strategy track (added Full Defense and Relentless Brutality to the standard tactics instead) and added a morale check when an army is reduced to half hitpoints/allied armies are routing.

A couple of things we noticed:

Ranged Attacks are quite strong. There is no reason not to add a ranged attack to a unit, since it loses nothing of its attack potential by doing so. This was particularly noticable since the players had a couple of long range options while the enemy army did not.
Allowing the tactics to apply to ranged attacks only made this worse, since the players had other armies to serve as buffers for their ranged armies there was no real penalty to using Relentless Brutality all the time. (The players even didn't do that as they felt that would be an obvious exploit.)
We were not quite sure how to go about friendly fire in case of armies that occupy more than one square. In the end we only treated those squares that are actually engaged to count as such, allowing ranged armies to fire on the other squares of an army without penalties. (This might have contributed to the ranged options seeming so powerful, I'm still not sure about this.)
Choosing tactics before the ranged phase meant that the chosen tactics were sometimes no longer applicable. One player switched to a defensive tactic in anticipation of a melee only to have the enemy army shot before it reached him :smallannoyed:. The players suggested changing the tactics decision to be made either before or after the ranged phase to be able to react in such situations.
We had some forest on the battlefield and I noticed that its missing from the terrain types (not too many trees in the Worldwound? :smallwink:). We ended up treating it as rough terrain with an added penalty to both incoming and outgoing ranged attacks (-2 I think).
We were not sure what ACR to apply to the reconnaissance rolls. The highest one in the army?


My morale changes had little effect due to lucky rolls on all sides, only one enemy army ended up routing.

Overall I would like to differentiate more between ranged and melee units (and potentially cavalry, but that played no role in our battle).
I was thinking of chosing between a melee or ranged focused army at creation, splitting the offense bonus into melee and ranged and having one of them lag behind the other depending on the choice. So an archer army might have a +ACR bonus to ranged attacks, but a +(ACR-X) bonus to melee attacks. For an army of swordsman that have some throwing spears it would be the other way around.

I'm leaning towards applying the aggresive and defensive tactics to melee only as a futher opportunity cost for ranged units, but add other tactics for example for avoiding melee engagements.



That was in general my intention yes. The "casters" resources is supposed to represent casters who can cast 1-2nd level spells. The entire system is built on the assumption that 5th level characters are the elite of regular troops. I know this doesn't work for all fantasy settings, but I was going by what the Paizo rules explained. I think that if you start using many forces with lots of SLA/ spells/ Supernatural abilities, than the system kinda breaks down, unless you highly simplify things.


OK, that makes the difference clear to me.

For these 'personnel' resources, would it make sense to recruit them like individual armies (of a smaller size) and then attach them to a larger army? That way one could include them in the armies size, upkeep and casualties as well and use the usual prerequisites for recruitment for the kingdom building aspect.



That could be a good idea actually. AA bit more work, but possible. I'll add that up to the plan to expand on Boons and separate them from tactics more.


As I said above I'm definitely in favor of differentiating melee, ranged and pontentially cavalry further. I think tactics are a good place to do this with things like setting reach weapons for a charge, cavalry attempting to break through an enemy army and so on.

I've had a couple of ideas here, I need to find some time to write these down sometime soon.



My main beef here is that armies usually learn more from defeat than from winning. And I'd also like to give them that chance to get back tougher into the fight. It also makes for better stories. Otherwise, a defeated army just gets hammered more, and has even less chance of being relevant any time in the near future.


I had some second thoughts on that as well, especially considering that many battles might be somewhat rigged in favor of the players, just like regular encounters can usually be won.



Ok, Our group will play in a few hours, and there are supposed to be two main battles there- one in a mist covered area, the other is the final siege of Drezen, which should be... interesting. (If they get to it that is. A VERY busy session up ahead). SO maybe I'll have more to add when we're done.


The damage mostly worked out ok during our battle, although one enemy army was reduced to nothing by two ranged attacks in a single round. ACR differences and lucky rolls can quickly result in high damage.

I'll keep an eye on your campaign log for those battles.

[Kol Korran]

We played mostly with the rules as presented here, but left out the strategy track (added Full Defense and Relentless Brutality to the standard tactics instead) and added a morale check when an army is reduced to half hitpoints/allied armies are routing.
That sounds quite reasonable.


A couple of things we noticed:
Ranged Attacks are quite strong. There is no reason not to add a ranged attack to a unit, since it loses nothing of its attack potential by doing so. This was particularly noticable since the players had a couple of long range options while the enemy army did not. Hmmm... We had a battle where the enemy also had no range capabilities, and they got pretty much obliterated at the ranged phase. I Agree here. Ranged combat is quite powerful.

Allowing the tactics to apply to ranged attacks only made this worse, since the players had other armies to serve as buffers for their ranged armies there was no real penalty to using Relentless Brutality all the time. (The players even didn't do that as they felt that would be an obvious exploit.) I agree again. I think those will need to change.

We were not quite sure how to go about friendly fire in case of armies that occupy more than one square. In the end we only treated those squares that are actually engaged to count as such, allowing ranged armies to fire on the other squares of an army without penalties. (This might have contributed to the ranged options seeming so powerful, I'm still not sure about this.) Our rule was the opposite- once an army was engaged, all of it was considered engaged, which put most of the armies out of ranged play fairly quickly. Of course, this makes no sense for very big armies. I'm wondering of maybe including the following adjustment: An engaged army and any djcent parts of it are considered engaged, but any parts of it beyond that are not considered so for ranged purposes"?

Choosing tactics before the ranged phase meant that the chosen tactics were sometimes no longer applicable. One player switched to a defensive tactic in anticipation of a melee only to have the enemy army shot before it reached him :smallannoyed:. The players suggested changing the tactics decision to be made either before or after the ranged phase to be able to react in such situations. Not sure about this one. It took the players enough time to get used to the order of the round as it is, mixing it up may cause more confusion. I suggest to just think up strategically bout when to issue command and the order of the fight, sort of...

We had some forest on the battlefield and I noticed that its missing from the terrain types (not too many trees in the Worldwound? :smallwink:). We ended up treating it as rough terrain with an added penalty to both incoming and outgoing ranged attacks (-2 I think). Oh, I must have missed that! Forest just allows cover for hidden movement, Jungle does the same but is also considered difficult terrain.

We were not sure what ACR to apply to the reconnaissance rolls. The highest one in the army?
Yep, the highest one, unless you're using the "Expert scouts" resource, in which case you use that army's ACR +2
My morale changes had little effect due to lucky rolls on all sides, only one enemy army ended up routing.


Overall I would like to differentiate more between ranged and melee units (and potentially cavalry, but that played no role in our battle).
I was thinking of choosing between a melee or ranged focused army at creation, splitting the offense bonus into melee and ranged and having one of them lag behind the other depending on the choice. So an archer army might have a +ACR bonus to ranged attacks, but a +(ACR-X) bonus to melee attacks. For an army of swordsman that have some throwing spears it would be the other way around.Hmmm, an interesting idea, giving some units ranged focus and others melee focus. I just wonder if this may complicate things. Anyway, I think that since an army receives it's OM from it's ACR, maybe that value could be divided between melee and ranged. For example, say an ACR 4 army could have melee/ ranged +4/+0 or +3/+1 or +2/+2, or +1/+3, or +0/+4.

It limits the armies more, with all that entails. It means an army will probably have less "All units can fire" approach, and on the whole will grant a bit more survivability to armies (Since on some cases, OM will be less than DV) with this approach. But I fear it may limit the armies options too much in an allready limited options mini-game.


I'm leaning towards applying the aggressive and defensive tactics to melee only as a further opportunity cost for ranged units, but add other tactics for example for avoiding melee engagements.I'm not sure I understood your sentence here... limiting these tactics for melee I understand, but tactics to void melee? Isn't this what withdraw is? Or you mean like an "immediate action" 5 ft step back? That is REALLY powerful...



For these 'personnel' resources, would it make sense to recruit them like individual armies (of a smaller size) and then attach them to a larger army? That way one could include them in the armies size, upkeep and casualties as well and use the usual prerequisites for recruitment for the kingdom building aspect. Not sure what you mean here. Upkeep and puchase of resources depend on the army's size. An army can transfer it's resources to other armies of the same size with no problem. But larger armies need more upkeep and more BP to purchase the missing part. A lrger army needs more healers, more weapons, more mounts and the like.


As I said above I'm definitely in favor of differentiating melee, ranged and pontentially cavalry further. I think tactics are a good place to do this with things like setting reach weapons for a charge, cavalry attempting to break through an enemy army and so on. So you mean making different tactics aimed t specific kind of units... Hmmm, I like that. I like that a lot. It gives a more strategic feel to the battle.


The damage mostly worked out ok during our battle, although one enemy army was reduced to nothing by two ranged attacks in a single round. ACR differences and lucky rolls can quickly result in high damage. This happened in one of my battles (If you remember, the death of the lions of Sarkoris in the first battle in the Drezen environs). On reflection though, I'd like to keep it so. It adds an element of danger, of the "crit roll" sort to speak to the battle. As said- it takes two really lucky rolls in one round, not that often.


I'll keep an eye on your campaign log for those battles. posted.

Thanks for sharing ideas, I will have a bit mire free time soon, and maybe we'll be able to work it up to something better. I am notifying my players of this thread (Should have done it so much sooner on retrospect!) Maybe they'll have some ideas on the matter. I see if any of them have anythign to say about the proposed changes, before changing them in the rules above.

[Coidzor]

In your second post where you have your basic definitions, I believe I found a typo.

You have
The Moral Check: Used to change tactics, change strategy quickly and to prevent routing: 1d20+The army's moral boost (Army's moral + Commander's moral boost). DC is usually 15.

Which I believe should be a Morale Check instead.

[Kol Korran]

In your second post where you have your basic definitions, I believe I found a typo.

You have

Which I believe should be a Morale Check instead.
Hmmm... the spell check didn't show it. Thanks! But this means this typo is all over the rules... :smallsigh: I will get to try and fix it later. I better check that both spellings are not ok simultaneously first. I heard of such things.

Edit: Checked it. There are two spellings, but for different meanings. So these are two different words. Oh my... :smalleek:
2nd edit: I morale-ized all the moral words in the rules. Thank to the word-find option.

Thanks for notifying me!

[Kol Korran]

I've updated the list of things that needs to be addressed. (Enough to remind me and others what still needs to be done). Haktar, or anyone else who wishes to join in, check it out and inform me if anything is incorrect, missing, should be added.