Few questions about clerics (new question added)

[RoboEmperor]

1. "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." - d20srd

"they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." - dndtools

so... does this mean clerics (and faerun clerics) can get divine spells without praying but instead meditating? I know mechanically it doesn't make a difference but... 1 hour of praying daily is a deal breaker for my current character concept roleplay wise. 1 hour meditation is no problem, but 1 hour daily begging a deity is... a problem >.<

2. "All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity...It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."

Can you say your cleric is not from faerun to get a deityless cleric? What would you or your DM say to that? A foreign cleric without a deity?

3. For Zen Archery Clerics, is rapid shot worth it? Getting rapid shot or not is the difference between 8 dex v.s. 13 dex. Since clerics don't usually have cat's grace, having 13 dex = max dex bonus from full plate, so is the extra 2 AC and rapidshot worth the 5 points in a point buy system? This would mean a 17 WIS score and 10-12 CON score, unless you dump INT (which I want atleast 12 of) or it's a higher tier point buy.

4. Anti magic field + extraordinary spell aim on a ranged cleric, is this a bad idea? Because you'll never be close enough to put enemy spellcasters in the AMF, while you yourself is still vulnerable to magic because you're not in the AMF.

and an off-topic-ish question:
5. In your experience, how often do DMs ban Thaumaturgists, Arms and Equipment book, and the spell domain?(either the domain itself or the spell compendium sourcebook)

6. How often do DMs ban persistent spell?

EDIT: New question
7. Can a Cleric start off worshipping a deity, but then later once he gets powerful enough he says "screw this deity and all his restrictions" and become a deityless cleric and deal with all the people the deities send to kill him?

[PaucaTerrorem]

1) ask your DM about re-fluffing the praying to meditation.

2) ask your DM about it.

[Red Fel]

1. "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." - d20srd

"they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." - dndtools

so... does this mean clerics (and faerun clerics) can get divine spells without praying but instead meditating? I know mechanically it doesn't make a difference but... 1 hour of praying daily is a deal breaker for my current character concept roleplay wise. 1 hour meditation is no problem, but 1 hour daily begging a deity is... a problem >.<

Well, outside of FR, you don't have to be a Cleric of a deity; you can be a Cleric of an ideal. (In FR, if you don't worship a deity, you're in rather a lot of trouble.) Obviously, you wouldn't pray to "freedom," you'd simply meditate on it. That said, this is more an RP thing than a mechanical thing; the two seem fairly interchangeable (meditation and prayer) in this context, although I assume some of what you're doing must be prayer.

It's kind of hard to be a Cleric of a deity - that is, a person who knows, for a fact, of the existence of a cosmically powerful being in charge of aspects of reality, who receives power from that person in exchange for devotion and adherence to a code of faith - and not pray to that deity. All Clerics are, to a certain extent, servants of their deities, and prayer goes along with that.

If you don't want to revere a deity directly, consider playing a Favored Soul instead. Not as many useful tools as a Cleric gets, and they've got Sorcerer-style casting instead of Wizard-style, but you don't actually have to revere your divine patron.


2. "All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity...It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."

Can you say your cleric is not from faerun to get a deityless cleric? What would you or your DM say to that? A foreign cleric without a deity?

Faerun is the central setting for the world of Toril. The rules, as I understand them, apply to all of Toril, not just to one continent. You don't just show up in Faerun and find yourself subject to new rules; they apply across Toril. And getting to Toril isn't as easy as climbing off a boat and waving your passport. If you tried to propose a character who was, say, a Cleric from Greyhawk who hitched a ride on a Spelljammer and wound up in Faerun, your DM would be well within rights to veto you. Even if you were accepted, there's a reasonable chance that you'd be cut off from your source of power, unable to cast spells until you conformed with Toril's rules. It's like saying that because you came from a planet with lower gravity, when you arrive on this one, you should still be subject to low gravity. That's not how it works.

The rest of your questions are either mechanical or anecdotal, and I don't feel confident answering them.

[RoboEmperor]

It's kind of hard to be a Cleric of a deity - that is, a person who knows, for a fact, of the existence of a cosmically powerful being in charge of aspects of reality, who receives power from that person in exchange for devotion and adherence to a code of faith - and not pray to that deity. All Clerics are, to a certain extent, servants of their deities, and prayer goes along with that.

I was hoping for something like
1. You worship 2 ideals (domains), ___ and ___
2. There's a god that also worship those 2 ideals.
3. You join the church and whatnot and perform the duties but you're not a devoted fanatic or something.

Best way to describe what I'm trying to say is franchising.
Mcdonalds is the deity, and the cleric opens a Mcdonalds franchse. Cleric obeys all what Mcdonalds tells him to do and adheres to the code of conduct and whatnot, but still the cleric is independent of Mcdonalds so Mcdonalds and the cleric just help each other out, instead of cleric becoming some sort of lackey or employee of Mcdonalds. Cleric uses Mcdonald and pays the franchising fee, and Mcdonald in turn helps the cleric.

So in this analogy, praying would be asking for more money from Mcdonalds HQ, where as meditating would be you getting your own funding with your own strength, like a bank or something, but you're still part of mcdonalds yet you're independent too.

And in my other thread a lot of people suggested a lot of "hands off" deities :) so no worshipping someone like Bane, but someone like Boccob or Oghma

[Telonius]

For #1, that's "ask your DM" territory. I don't think the exact method of prayer is detailed. Each deity would probably have its own rules, and some would be more open to meditative or contemplative prayer than supplicative prayer. (I can imagine Hextor wanting some groveling, but someone like Obad-Hai would probably be fine with considering the beauty of a flower).

#2, again, it's ask your DM. The setting rules explicitly forbid deity-less clerics. If the DM wants to suspend the rule, that's their prerogative.

#3, it's kind of iffy, and really depends on how high you want to push the optimization. If you're going to be walking around with DMM persisted buffs all day, you probably won't have room for the feat, let alone the stats. Personally I'd think there's usually better things you can do with your action (and your feat) than shooting an arrow.

#4, If you're going to be mainly an archer, your tactics are probably going to be heavy on the side of, "hang out in back and buff/debuff." You're probably not going to be where magic weapons can hurt you. On the other hand, if you're looking at an 8-Dex Cleric, your reflex save is going to be awful, and you'll be vulnerable to magical blasting. It would be something I'd consider keeping in my back pocket in case of emergency.

#5 - Thaumaturgist, I've never seen one ban it. A&EG: I've more often seen spot bans on specific items for particular characters, than banning the book altogether. (Nixing Sparring Dummy of the Master for a Scout, for example, but being okay with it for Monk). Spell Domain, I've seen people look very sternly at it, especially if it seems like a character is trying to get all the spells via (Greater/) Anyspell. If you're just casting it as a domain spell, that's probably not going to be a problem. If you turn into the Anyspell Scroll Factory, that might be more of a problem. If you're in a high-op group, it's probably fine.

#6 - Most groups I've played in are in one of two camps: ban it entirely, or allow it but ban metamagic reducers. That said, I've mostly played with groups where there was a mix of really experienced and brand-new players. If you're playing with a higher-powered group it would probably be allowed.

[RoboEmperor]

#5 - Thaumaturgist, I've never seen one ban it. A&EG: I've more often seen spot bans on specific items for particular characters, than banning the book altogether. (Nixing Sparring Dummy of the Master for a Scout, for example, but being okay with it for Monk). Spell Domain, I've seen people look very sternly at it, especially if it seems like a character is trying to get all the spells via (Greater/) Anyspell. If you're just casting it as a domain spell, that's probably not going to be a problem. If you turn into the Anyspell Scroll Factory, that might be more of a problem. If you're in a high-op group, it's probably fine.

Pray tell what the anyspell scroll factory is :)
I was just planning on using anyspell for arcane spells for crafting

[Telonius]

Pray tell what the anyspell scroll factory is :)
I was just planning on using anyspell for arcane spells for crafting

You know, it's been so long since I looked at the actual spell, and years since I've seen it in action in an actual game. Turns out our DM at the time was completely screwing up what the spell could do. (That doesn't surprise me, considering some of the other rulings he issued... )

[Red Fel]

I was hoping for something like
1. You worship 2 ideals (domains), ___ and ___
2. There's a god that also worship those 2 ideals.
3. You join the church and whatnot and perform the duties but you're not a devoted fanatic or something.

Best way to describe what I'm trying to say is franchising.
Mcdonalds is the deity, and the cleric opens a Mcdonalds franchse. Cleric obeys all what Mcdonalds tells him to do and adheres to the code of conduct and whatnot, but still the cleric is independent of Mcdonalds so Mcdonalds and the cleric just help each other out, instead of cleric becoming some sort of lackey or employee of Mcdonalds. Cleric uses Mcdonald and pays the franchising fee, and Mcdonald in turn helps the cleric.

So in this analogy, praying would be asking for more money from Mcdonalds HQ, where as meditating would be you getting your own funding with your own strength, like a bank or something, but you're still part of mcdonalds yet you're independent too.

And in my other thread a lot of people suggested a lot of "hands off" deities :) so no worshipping someone like Bane, but someone like Boccob or Oghma

Well, as others have mentioned, it's "ask your DM" territory. I don't know many games where a DM required our Cleric-players to demonstrate more than a passing knowledge of their characters' faiths. PCs weren't generally expected to RP the whole nine yards.

As I recall, however, most deities don't want empty ritual. Some, admittedly, put ritual over faith, but a lot of the deities in D&D generally (and FR specifically) get rather cross if you join the church out of convenience. As I recall, those in FR who accept a deity but fail to uphold the dogma are judged False, and punished by Kelemvor. So you may think twice about this whole "I'll join your church, but don't tell me what to do, okay?" angle. Even a "hands-off" deity expects you to espouse a certain degree of dogma.

That said, Clerics don't have to be devoted fanatics. Particularly non-Lawful Clerics. Not all of being a Cleric is about memorizing tracts or performing rituals. A lot of it is about having a personal code, a way of life, or a particular outlook. For example, a Cleric of Ilmater could pray to Ilmater six times a day, and ritually flay himself, or he could simply go out of his way to ease the suffering of those he encounters. RPing a Cleric doesn't mean RPing a religious zealot, just a person with ideals.

[Chronikoce]

1. "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells." - d20srd


Bolding is mine. You have an option of quiet contemplation instead of supplication. Contemplation is a synonym for meditation. There is no conflict here unless your DM specifically dictates that contemplation is not an option.

--Edit--
As for following a deity. Mechanically a Faerun Cleric must have a deity but for RP purposes you can flavor that relationship however you want. The mechanics are required because the deity grants the spells, domains, and powers which may determine what is available to you. Any deviation from that model would most likely require DM permission as others have stated.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm just not seeing enough of a meaningful difference between prayer and meditation to make one of them okay and the other one a deal-breaker. They're essentially the same thing.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm just not seeing enough of a meaningful difference between prayer and meditation to make one of them okay and the other one a deal-breaker. They're essentially the same thing.

Meditation is where you empty your mind. So in this case you'll be drawing/recharging divine power with your own faith. Praying is begging the god for power. If you read the prayer entries of some deities it''s like "oh great ___ bringer of ___ blah blah blah"

so roleplay wise, would you be a cleric if you have to spend an hour everyday praising the deity and worshiping him?


So you may think twice about this whole "I'll join your church, but don't tell me what to do, okay?" angle. Even a "hands-off" deity expects you to espouse a certain degree of dogma.

You misunderstood XD. The deity would be able to tell the cleric what to do and the cleric follows his dogma, after all the deity is suppliyng the divine power so you'd better do as he says. It's part of the deal, do as he says and he'll give you power. I just have a problem with the cleric praising/worshiping/begging the deity EVERY DAY FOR AN HOUR >.< v.s. meditation on the ideals.

In the case of Boccob, compare saying this for an hour everyday:
"Hail and I greet you, Boccob, Master of Magic, All-Seeing, All-Potent Revealer of Mysteries Beyond Compare, Whose Perspicacity knows no boundaries, most puissant protector of the eldritch realms, both known and unknown…"

v.s. quietly contemplating/meditating/philosophizing/thinking about knowledge and magic and about their effects on this world, how they are used/misused, etc. for an hour

I'll probably not mention any of this to a DM because you know, like you guys said no DM expects you to go the full 9 yards of roleplay or even cares about how your character prays, but I wanted some assurance that my interpretation is valid.

[Red Fel]

You misunderstood XD. The deity would be able to tell the cleric what to do and the cleric follows his dogma, after all the deity is suppliyng the divine power so you'd better do as he says. It's part of the deal, do as he says and he'll give you power. I just have a problem with the cleric praising/worshiping/begging the deity EVERY DAY FOR AN HOUR >.< v.s. meditation on the ideals.

In the case of Boccob, compare saying this for an hour everyday:
"Hail and I greet you, Boccob, Master of Magic, All-Seeing, All-Potent Revealer of Mysteries Beyond Compare, Whose Perspicacity knows no boundaries, most puissant protector of the eldritch realms, both known and unknown…"

v.s. quietly contemplating/meditating/philosophizing/thinking about knowledge and magic and about their effects on this world, how they are used/misused, etc. for an hour

I'll probably not mention any of this to a DM because you know, like you guys said no DM expects you to go the full 9 yards of roleplay or even cares about how your character prays, but I wanted some assurance that my interpretation is valid.

Oh, sure. That's not a problem. As long as your Cleric performs the mandatory rituals (you know, holidays, opening song at the big game, flaying a cat or two) I doubt the entire hour has to be exclusively prayer. Mind you, if you pick a particularly Lawful deity, you can expect an entire church service to fill the time, but a less rigorous or regimented deity is fine with you performing the required bits and then just pondering for the rest of the time. ("Freedom... What is freedom? Freedom is pretty awesome, is what freedom is. What about Goodness? Goodness... is good. And badness is not so good. So Goodness is better than badness. And that's good. Uh... Amen.") Spoon!

[RoboEmperor]

New question:
7. Can a Cleric start off worshipping a deity, but then later once he gets powerful enough he says "screw this deity and all his restrictions" and become a deityless cleric and deal with all the people the deities send to kill him?

Clerics have access to divine spells without worshipping a deity. This is a fact. The only reason why they can't do it in Faerun is because deities die without worshippers so they make sure all clerics are part of a church. Some additional precautions they have made is the wall of the faithless, but can't a cleric say "screw this deity and all his restrictions" and devote himself to his belief and deal with whatever people the deity sends to kill him?

For example, a cleric worships Selune for the magic domain, but later hates her restriction against raising the undead, so as a true believer that magic shouldn't be restricted, he decides to screw Selune and pursue his belief of magic or something like that, and instead of switching to a deity that allows undead, he thinks that deity will also limit his or her potential on the philosophy and what not so he doesn't.

[Red Fel]

New question:
7. Can a Cleric start off worshipping a deity, but then later once he gets powerful enough he says "screw this deity and all his restrictions" and become a deityless cleric and deal with all the people the deities send to kill him?

Not exactly.

Whether your Cleric gets his powers directly from a deity (Cleric of a deity) or simply through his faith (Cleric of an ideal) he gets them from something external. And while there is precedent for switching from one source to another, it's still deriving your powers from something beyond. Give up on your faith altogether and it's bye-bye powers.

Now, if you're suggesting ditching a deity and becoming a cleric of an ideal, that's different. But if you're saying ditch the deity altogether, you lose all those neato powers that deity got you. No replacement faith means no replacement powers.

And in Faerun, the gods don't have to hunt you down for your heresy. They could simply smite you, if they wanted, but the world is deadly enough for a powerless ex-Cleric; you'll find yourself before Kelemvor soon enough.

[RoboEmperor]

Not exactly.

Whether your Cleric gets his powers directly from a deity (Cleric of a deity) or simply through his faith (Cleric of an ideal) he gets them from something external. And while there is precedent for switching from one source to another, it's still deriving your powers from something beyond. Give up on your faith altogether and it's bye-bye powers.

Now, if you're suggesting ditching a deity and becoming a cleric of an ideal, that's different. But if you're saying ditch the deity altogether, you lose all those neato powers that deity got you. No replacement faith means no replacement powers.

And in Faerun, the gods don't have to hunt you down for your heresy. They could simply smite you, if they wanted, but the world is deadly enough for a powerless ex-Cleric; you'll find yourself before Kelemvor soon enough.

I am asking whether I can ditch a deity and become a cleric of an ideal. Magic is always derived from something beyond. Arcane is the weave, divine is gods or ideals, so I'm asking if I can go 15 levels of a cleric of some deity, and then switch to a cleric of an ideal because the cleric thinks the deity does not uphold his ideal well enough due to some restrictions.

And a comment about your smiting bit, I don't think that's true. There are deityless wizards, and all that happens to them is they end up in hell or the wall of the faithless, no smiting. Helm can smite all evil but instead he gives quests to his helmites and sends them instead.

*sigh* I think I'm pushing this too much. I guess I'll just have to modify my character to worship some deity willingly or just go a wizard and deal with all the ASF >.<