Find Familiar vs Stealth

[AugustNights]

Has anyone noticed the scouting potential of Find Familiar to be to some degree unbalanced?

In my last session the party rogue was heavily outclassed in the scouting ahead department by the wizard's lizard familiar, which, due to the size of the two dungeons they found themselves in, were easily explored by the tiny animal without leaving range.
I like the fluff of it, but mechanically I worry about one class taking too many roles without as much investment.

Thoughts/Experiences?

[MadGrady]

The scouting potential of the find familiar spell is pretty powerful. My suggestion would be to come up with some ways that don't allow the lizard to go where the rogue can - such as a locked door or something of that nature.

Does the rogue have Darkvision or anything like that? Can you block any of the sensory abilities of the lizard?

If it keeps being an issue - you could always talk to the wizard and say something like - hey, let's give this other player a chance to shine.

If worse comes to worse, the lizard can always be stepped on......

[hymer]

If worse comes to worse, the lizard can always be stepped on......

Well, lizards are kilothermic. It might just get so tired once it leaves the warmth of master's pocket. And there are plenty of places where a lizard's presence would raise a lot of questions. Such a lizard might get trapped and put in a sack and kept by the baddie in the bottom of the dungeon.
Because killing the thing is a very temporary solution.

Edit: Actually looks like you could just temporarily dismiss it and then have it reappear if it gets trapped.

[Vizzerdrix]

Or instead of punishing the wizard and his lizard for being clever, address the problem of the rogue being bad at his job.

[Scirocco]

The lizard's stealth roll is +0, the Rogue's is probably +5. If someone notices the weird looking animal (fey, fiendish, or celestial) they're going to squish it flat. Sure, the caster can get it back, but they're going to need a short rest to do it (assuming that they actually get the benefits of a short rest when casting a ritual spell).

Familiars do make excellent scouts (my personal favorite is the owl), but they're fragile and they're not especially sneaky.

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't see how this is a problem.

Most familiars won't have exceptionally good perception or investigation, so while they can look ahead and see that there are in fact monsters, he's not specifically going to be very good at scouting per se. In fact, most aren't even specifically good at stealth.

If your familiar is spotted, it is more than likely just going to die outright at which point you need to go back to a place with a brass brazier before you can summon it again.


Finally, "Go forward and see if there are monsters" is not the limit of the role of your party rogue. That is in fact a role that could be fulfilled by any number of classes - any caster with invisibility, for example, or a druid with Wildshape, or pretty damn near any class with stealth proficiency.


Sure, the caster can get it back, but they're going to need a short rest to do it (assuming that they actually get the benefits of a short rest when casting a ritual spell).


Nope. Needs a brass brazier, which presumably the wizard is not carrying around in his back pocket.

[Scirocco]

Brass braziers are not exactly uncommon in dungeons. Still, it could get expensive if your familiar keeps popping.

[TheOOB]

If scouting in the open world is all you feel that a rogue is good for, then yes, a familiar *might* be stepping on a rogues toes. Familiars are actually not the best at hiding, can't usually find hidden traps/monsters, kind of stand out in most dungeons, can't trigger many switches/grab most items, and can't take out guards.

[BW022]

Using familiars to scout is a potentially useful ability. However, it is hardly overpowering.

First, most familiars scouting are at grave risk of danger. A spider, lizard, rat, bat, etc. familiar could easily be killed by rats. Certainly outdoors they make tasty snacks to just about every animal in the area. Most are single hit and they are dead.

Second, most familiars are blocked by extremely simple things. i.e. doors, traps, puzzles, etc. Climbing may be an issue with some. Seeing in the dark is an issue for many.

Third, familiars aren't necessarily suicidal.

Forth, familiars lack the ability to do much vs. a stealthy character. They can't take really take out a guard, light a candle to exam some writings, steal something an bring it back, push a bugbear down a pit, start the fight by locking the door to the troll's quarters, interrupt a ritual, etc.

Fifth, so what? They scout ahead, come back, and give you some information. The party still has to move forward and do something. At best they are only going to report what is ahead. While useful to plan an attack, it doesn't necessarily to more than a rogue could do scouting ahead and coming back.

[MaxWilson]

Forth, familiars lack the ability to do much vs. a stealthy character. They can't take really take out a guard, light a candle to exam some writings, steal something an bring it back, push a bugbear down a pit, start the fight by locking the door to the troll's quarters, interrupt a ritual, etc.

Fifth, so what? They scout ahead, come back, and give you some information. The party still has to move forward and do something. At best they are only going to report what is ahead. While useful to plan an attack, it doesn't necessarily to more than a rogue could do scouting ahead and coming back.

What this means is that in order for stealthy characters to be better than a familiar, you have to be willing to temporarily split the party. Some people are really uncomfortable with not having all the PCs within 30' of each other at all times; those groups will find lots of value in familiars. But a stealthy character can, as you say, do things that a familiar can't.

An actual scout also has a somewhat better chance to spot well-hidden enemies, since a familiar's passive perception is usually only 13 at most whereas a scout can get up to 32 (in theory).

[Mellack]

Nope. Needs a brass brazier, which presumably the wizard is not carrying around in his back pocket.

Maybe not in his back pocket, but I believe it is in the spell component pouch, or negated by the use of a focus. Only the charcoal/incense/herbs has a cost and is consumed.

Note, many incense burners, aka a brazier, are quite small.

[Orvir]

An actual scout also has a somewhat better chance to spot well-hidden enemies, since a familiar's passive perception is usually only 13 at most whereas a scout can get up to 32 (in theory).

Several of the familiars have keen senses which give advantage to passive perception, which is a +5.

For example, the Hawk would have a passive perception of 19 on checks that rely on sight.

[AugustNights]

Some interesting thoughts, all in all.
I'm not having trouble with the Rogue fulfilling her other niches, and she's rather enjoying stabbing quite a few people in the back.
I'm primarily concerned about a singular spell, one of first level and a permanent duration, taking over such a major role. Knocking out the investment of at least one skill proficiency, perhaps two, if done well.

I didn't think that a familiar's fey/celestial/fiendish nature changed its appearance overly much, but that is certainly a thing to discuss and consider for future instances.

[edge2054]

I made the mistake of telling the wizard in my group about how great the owl is. I don't scout anymore on my rogue.